Author wmacbride Posted April 1, 2017 Author Posted April 1, 2017 not sure how to do that and also I apologize for the topic I can't say for sure, but think you get pm access when you have so much time and a certain number of posts on the forum. The " questions and comments" section might be able to help you:)
Arieswoman Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) Central, Perhaps. I would say that in many cases the low level abuse was by the BS, and was a contributing factor in the WS choosing some relief elsewhere. I do not agree, and this sounds like a cheater apologist-speak to me. Most cheaters like to believe that they had ‘justifiable cause‘ for their affair – saying the partner's abuse of them gave them justifiable cause or excuse for their own abuse of the BS. They then further support that narrative with the belief that their own abuses were less egregious than the BS's ! The parallels between a cheater claiming justifiable cause for their mistreatment of their spouse and a spouse-beater claiming the same, are troubling. To accept that rationale is dangerous, as it accords legitimacy to the notion of justified abuse … and that’s a very slippery slope indeed. Edited April 1, 2017 by Arieswoman 4
Southern Sun Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 What is Psychological Abuse? Psychological abuse (also referred to as psychological violence, emotional abuse, or mental abuse) is a form of abuse, characterized by a person subjecting, or exposing, another person to behavior that may result in psychological trauma, including anxiety, chronic depression, or post-traumatic stress disorder. In short, the answer is, yes. This is an inappropriate analogy for infidelity. Certainly BSs are traumatized by the discovery of the infidelity. But if you read up on real psychological abuse (as well as physical abuse and emotional abuse), you will find that there is INTENTION behind it. More specifically, intention to hurt the victim in question, which in this case, would be the BS. As others have said, usually the pain a BS experiences is collateral damage. It is NOT the intended effect of the infidelity. If one has a WS who is specifically using affairs as a method of causing pain to a BS, then yes, I would say that WS is likely abusive. I imagine that person is also using other forms of psychological, emotional, even potentially physical abuse. An abusive person by nature will use a variety of tactics to control, manipulate, and cause pain to their victim. But this is not typically the aim of a WS in an affair. I think that's why, as others have said, it's actually a bit careless to call all of this the same thing. 2
compulsivedancer Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 Infidelity is usually not about the BS. Yes, it's insanely hurtful to that person, but it is generally not done in order to hurt them. 1
todreaminblue Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 (edited) This is an inappropriate analogy for infidelity. Certainly BSs are traumatized by the discovery of the infidelity. But if you read up on real psychological abuse (as well as physical abuse and emotional abuse), you will find that there is INTENTION behind it. More specifically, intention to hurt the victim in question, which in this case, would be the BS. As others have said, usually the pain a BS experiences is collateral damage. It is NOT the intended effect of the infidelity. If one has a WS who is specifically using affairs as a method of causing pain to a BS, then yes, I would say that WS is likely abusive. I imagine that person is also using other forms of psychological, emotional, even potentially physical abuse. An abusive person by nature will use a variety of tactics to control, manipulate, and cause pain to their victim. But this is not typically the aim of a WS in an affair. I think that's why, as others have said, it's actually a bit careless to call all of this the same thing. would it be careless for a wayward spouse to say pass on aids ....and yet not be called abuse.....because he/she just didnt think of the implications of not wearing a condom.....too caught up in the moment....to think.....about his wife or her husband at home.....and just for say his/her thoughtlessness resulted in her eventual death from aids or related complications from aids...... or life long disease and sickness...........would it be careless to cal that manslaughter......considering that these peopel are adults adn of legal age and have brain function...thoughtlessness kills....adn i class killing soemone as ....abusive.....or even the threat before the act of possibly killing someone or seriously injuring them medically and on the inside parts........abusive.. Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs)SyphilisFacts & Brochures Syphilis - CDC Fact Sheet Syphilis is a sexually transmitted disease (STD) that can have very serious complications when left untreated, but it is simple to cure with the right treatment. Basic Fact Sheet | Detailed Version | View Images of Symptoms Basic fact sheets are presented in plain language for individuals with general questions about sexually transmitted diseases. The content here can be syndicated (added to your web site). Print Version Commercial Print Version What is syphilis? Syphilis is a sexually transmitted infection that can cause serious health problems if it is not treated. Syphilis is divided into stages (primary, secondary, latent, and tertiary), and there are different signs and symptoms associated with each stage. How is syphilis spread? You can get syphilis by direct contact with a syphilis sore during vaginal, anal, or oral sex. Sores can be found on or around the penis, vagina, or anus, or in the rectum, on the lips, or in the mouth. Syphilis can also be spread from an infected mother to her unborn baby. What does syphilis look like? Syphilis is divided into stages (primary, secondary, latent, and tertiary), and there are different signs and symptoms associated with each stage. A person with primary syphilis generally has a sore or sores at the original site of infection. These sores usually occur on or around the genitals, around the anus or in the rectum, or in or around the mouth. These sores are usually (but not always) firm, round, and painless. Symptoms of secondary syphilis include skin rash, swollen lymph nodes, and fever. The signs and symptoms of primary and secondary syphilis can be mild, and they might not be noticed. During the latent stage, there are no signs or symptoms. Tertiary syphilis is associated with severe medical problems and is usually diagnosed by a doctor with the help of multiple tests. It can affect the heart, brain, and other organs of the body. Example of a primary syphilis sore. Example of a primary syphilis sore. How can I reduce my risk of getting syphilis? The only way to avoid STDs is to not have vaginal, anal, or oral sex. If you are sexually active, you can do the following things to lower your chances of getting syphilis: Being in a long-term mutually monogamous relationship with a partner who has been tested for syphilis and does not have syphilis; Using latex condoms the right way every time you have sex. Condoms prevent transmission of syphilis by preventing contact with a sore. Sometimes sores occur in areas not covered by a condom. Contact with these sores can still transmit syphilis. Am I at risk for syphilis? Any sexually active person can get syphilis through unprotected vaginal, anal, or oral sex. Have an honest and open talk with your health care provider and ask whether you should be tested for syphilis or other STDs. All pregnant women should be tested for syphilis at their first prenatal visit. In addition, you should get tested regularly for syphilis if you are sexually active and are a man who has sex with men, are living with HIV, or have partner(s) who have tested positive for syphilis. I’m pregnant. How does syphilis affect my baby? If you are pregnant and have syphilis, you can give the infection to your unborn baby. Having syphilis can lead to a low birth weight baby. It can also make it more likely you will deliver your baby too early or stillborn (a baby born dead). To protect your baby, you should be tested for syphilis at least once during your pregnancy and receive immediate treatment if you test positive. An infected baby may be born without signs or symptoms of disease. However, if not treated immediately, the baby may develop serious problems within a few weeks. Untreated babies can have health problems such as cataracts, deafness, or seizures, and can die. direct result from cheating...i got syphilus......while pregnant.......my oldest son actually...didnt die thank god above....but...he was born early.....he was low birth weight.and is mentally impaired......eh is 28 now and on disability pension for th erest of his life.....dotn know if it was spyphilus or an act of god that my son is mentally impaired...but i was hospitalized for syphilus and treated with heavy doses of anitbiotics during the last six months of my pregnancy.....arent i lucky i didnt catch aids.....maybe he blessed me with care by not giving me that.... i think honestly.....to not call cheating potentially abusive....is a huge mistake.........it can be life threatening in extreme cases i guess you could say.......it needs to be recognized for that...and the pain and suffering causede .......to the bs...whether they want to admit they didnt mean to cause suffering and torture.....or they were adults and they knew what they were doing ....they should take responsibility in my mind/.....for more than just collateral damage..to choose to be honest adn tell the bs so she can protect herself......now thats also abuse.....when they dont......and continue to have sex without protection with their wife or husband/...and before you say what fi they have safe sex ....the ws .....well that takes plannign and thought doesnt it wantign to protect the spouse.....adn then deciding that using a condom is thought enough for them....its abuse.....condoms arfe not 100 per cetn safe....i dont know of many loving partners who would not want their partners to be 100 per cent safe 100 per cent of the time.....fact is normally only abusive manipulative partners would want a partner to be unsafe and in harms way.......deb Edited April 1, 2017 by todreaminblue 4
elaine567 Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 As others have said, usually the pain a BS experiences is collateral damage. It is NOT the intended effect of the infidelity. I am not sure I totally agree with that. Lots of BSs report that the WS becomes a "different" person whilst in the midst of the affair and that difference is usually not displayed towards the BS in a positive way. So whilst I agree "some" WSs may have "no intention" of hurting the BS, many apparently knowingly treat the BS abysmally and that I have a hard job putting down to "unintentional collateral damage". The BS no longer matches up any more for numerous reasons, real or imagined, and some WSs just cannot keep up the pretence of being "in love" with the BS, and that disconnect can lead to actions that are more akin to hate than love in reality. Picking fights, storming out of the house to see the AP, assigning blame where none is deserved, neglect, a dismissive attitude, withholding affection, anger displayed, criticisms levelled, the showing of contempt, undermining, gaslighting etc... All that often equates to what would be viewed as emotional abuse. Once the affair is over, or they just realise where their bread is best buttered, they are very contrite and of course they always loved the BS, but... 2
road Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 Well, the absence of sex can never be considered abuse because people aren't obligated to have sex unless they want to, even in marriage. Sex is something two consenting adults do. Outside of that it's assault or rape. If you get married and decide to not want sex that is pulling the old bait and switch. Not right. 2
lionlover1973 Posted April 1, 2017 Posted April 1, 2017 This is an inappropriate analogy for infidelity. It wasn't an analogy for 'infidelity', it is the definition of Psychological Abuse. Abuse, is abuse. Infidelity or Domestic Abuse? Reducing infidelity to sexual incompatibility or relationship issues and labelling ongoing extra-marital sexual relations as sex addiction - a sickness to be treated - ignores the fact that infidelity itself is abuse and ignores the role that infidelity plays in a larger pattern of abusive behaviour. A study finds that infidelity can be a form of emotional violence that leaves betrayed partners with the same symptoms as an abusive partnership. Finding out the facts and acting on the cheating early may help the healing process. 2
5x5 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I don't think infidelity/cheating is abuse at all. My first wife cheated on me with another man, then shortly afterwards confessed her egregious behaviour. As a consequence of her actions I quickly ended our relationship via separation, which saw us divorced 15 months later. Although it sucked (I felt it in the stomach when she told me), and pissed me off at the time. It certainly wasn't the end of the world, nor was it anywhere near the worst thing I have experienced. At the end of the day I got over it, and moved on without wasting any time crying about it. I suspect all of the people who have experienced this and think it is abuse or fail to get over such things, are not very emotionally resilient. 1
DKT3 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 (edited) It's a topic that goes along with politics and religion. It's all depends on what side you sit. As a cheater you would tend to be on the side that says no, if you're the cheated you tend to say yes. I personally see it as abuse no matter the knowledge the BS has. Just because it may not be the intent ( which is BS anyway to say that, being that no sane person would believe it wouldn't hurt thier spouse) doesn't make the end result different. Drunk drivers don't set out to run people over, but the results are the same. Edited April 2, 2017 by DKT3 3
5x5 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I've never cheated on any of my sexual partners, yet I have been cheated on by one of them. Yet I still don't think it is abuse. I think where one sits isn't related to whether one is a cheater or otherwise. I think it is related to whether a person has an emotionally fragile personality or not. 1
Arieswoman Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 SS, An abusive person by nature will use a variety of tactics to control, manipulate, and cause pain to their victim. But this is not typically the aim of a WS in an affair. Really? So you don't think that lying and gaslighting (which is no more than f***ing with someone's reality) are abusive and controlling? Of course they are. It's the WS's way of making sure that their cake supply continues. 5x5, I think where one sits isn't related to whether one is a cheater or otherwise. I think it is related to whether a person has an emotionally fragile personality or not. So what's "an emotionally fragile personality" ?? 2
DKT3 Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I've never cheated on any of my sexual partners, yet I have been cheated on by one of them. Yet I still don't think it is abuse. I think where one sits isn't related to whether one is a cheater or otherwise. I think it is related to whether a person has an emotionally fragile personality or not. That's ridiculous, personal experience shape our views. However, not everyone view sex outside of a relationship as that bad, those people wouldn't view it as abusive. Yet .Let that cheat often say they won't accept being cheated on. If it's such an unintentional act why can't they also accept it when/if it happens to them. Emotionally fragile, really? 2
Arieswoman Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 road #32 If you get married and decide to not want sex that is pulling the old bait and switch. Not right. Correct. However, that's grounds for divorce ("unreasonable behaviour" in UK) not an excuse for cheating 3
Midwestmissy Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 How about if the children are affected by the lies? Is telling your child you will be at his function, then not show up because of being with an affair partner? Then lying about it (I was working hard to pay for your sports). Is that emotionally abusive to a child? If the betrayed person is being lied to daily, gaslighting occurs, confusion in the home, absent cheating parent - the betrayed is not able to be the best parent or even both parents, that the family needs. Everyone is affected, and when the truth comes out, everyone is hurt. My wh sees now how much destruction he caused to the entire family. His therapist told him he was emotionally abusive during the affair, and during the lying. My reproductive health was risked, our financial future was put at risk. They used company time and resources to conduct the affair. There's a reason fishing off the company pier is grounds for dismissal. Once the lying starts, the deception is 100% intentional. As for my contribution to the cheating, nope. I was in the same marriage with my needs being tossed aside and I never considered cheating. Not once. That choice is made by one person, and it's a conscious choice. Then it's a series of choices made when there are always other options. If I had contributed to it, why didn't he just tell me about it from the start? Because it had nothing to do with me. And he would agree. Just my experience, which is the only one I have first hand knowledge about. 2
todreaminblue Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I've never cheated on any of my sexual partners, yet I have been cheated on by one of them. Yet I still don't think it is abuse. I think where one sits isn't related to whether one is a cheater or otherwise. I think it is related to whether a person has an emotionally fragile personality or not. what if cheating caused that emotional fragility and it could be proven.....to have caused a mental illness called ptsd.. i have a very resilient personality...but i am fractured.....you have no idea how resilient...im a dead set survivor of abuse....sexual emotional and physical........and i call cheating......abuse..and just as bad .......as physical abuse...often in fact ....more damaging.............deb 2
CptInsano Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I think the word abuse gets used too freely. I think infidelity is immoral and totally messed up, but what's worse to me is when someone sticks around to continue to take the "abuse". You have the power and control to remove yourself from the abusive situation. At least in the western world. I have to agree. Calling cheating abuse would belittle what I consider abuse. And I have been cheated on, but I would never call it abuse. Somebody was less than perfect. 1
Author wmacbride Posted April 2, 2017 Author Posted April 2, 2017 This is an inappropriate analogy for infidelity. Certainly BSs are traumatized by the discovery of the infidelity. But if you read up on real psychological abuse (as well as physical abuse and emotional abuse), you will find that there is INTENTION behind it. More specifically, intention to hurt the victim in question, which in this case, would be the BS. As others have said, usually the pain a BS experiences is collateral damage. It is NOT the intended effect of the infidelity. If one has a WS who is specifically using affairs as a method of causing pain to a BS, then yes, I would say that WS is likely abusive. I imagine that person is also using other forms of psychological, emotional, even potentially physical abuse. An abusive person by nature will use a variety of tactics to control, manipulate, and cause pain to their victim. But this is not typically the aim of a WS in an affair. I think that's why, as others have said, it's actually a bit careless to call all of this the same thing. Do you feel hat a man or woman who hits their spouse, who calls them names or who abuses them in other ways intends to hurt them and that this is part of a thought out action? I don't think most are really thinking it out, they are simply reacting to something that hurts them or makes them angry. The end result is the same, and words and actions of cheating can hurt every bit as much as being hit. 2
Author wmacbride Posted April 2, 2017 Author Posted April 2, 2017 I don't think infidelity/cheating is abuse at all. My first wife cheated on me with another man, then shortly afterwards confessed her egregious behaviour. As a consequence of her actions I quickly ended our relationship via separation, which saw us divorced 15 months later. Although it sucked (I felt it in the stomach when she told me), and pissed me off at the time. It certainly wasn't the end of the world, nor was it anywhere near the worst thing I have experienced. At the end of the day I got over it, and moved on without wasting any time crying about it. I suspect all of the people who have experienced this and think it is abuse or fail to get over such things, are not very emotionally resilient. Really? I am not emotionally resilient? Pfftt... Most bs are incredibly emotionally resilient. I'm glad you were able to move on. 2
Arieswoman Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 RC 12# Unlike direct abuse, infidelity usually isn't the INTENTIONAL harm of the spouse - rather the harm is a result of selfishness and not the goal / intent. The "I never did it deliberately to hurt you" type of cheater-speak is the cheater actually lying to themselves. They are engaging in Image Management to make themselves feel better. ^^ this is an attempt to minimise what was done to the BS. Is suggests that intentions are the only criteria that count and not the destructive/lies actions of the cheater. This idea is just plainly untrue. Also it seems bizarre to me that cheater is promoting their intention to break their vows to BS as acceptable, whereas their intention to honour their marriage vows was unsucessful. I also find it incredulous that any normal adult is unaware that having sex outside marriage (without the knowledge and consent of the BS) will be hurtful to their spouse. 1
somanymistakes Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 The "I never did it deliberately to hurt you" type of cheater-speak is the cheater actually lying to themselves. And when it's not being spoken by a cheater? It's a rare affair that is done intentionally to punish a spouse. It does happen (often over jealousy or something) but more often, the cheater doesn't intend to hurt their betrayed spouse because they don't intend for their betrayed spouse to ever find out about it. 2
todreaminblue Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 (edited) And when it's not being spoken by a cheater? It's a rare affair that is done intentionally to punish a spouse. It does happen (often over jealousy or something) but more often, the cheater doesn't intend to hurt their betrayed spouse because they don't intend for their betrayed spouse to ever find out about it. when my ex was having an affair and chose to be with her i got hospitalized it triggered a deep depression one i could not snap out of and i was forced into hospitalisation considered a life threat to myself nto to others to myself..........he continued to see the affair partner...i rang him one day after a round of ect an mind numbing medication..... because my friend who was looking after my five children had informed me that there was no food for the kids and the kids were being left home at night by themselves....she had taken them to her place because the hot water gas ...had been cut and they had no way of having showers to attend school ..........he never intended me to find this out....my best girl friend was a true god send....i have no idea how my kids and i would have coped without her anyway ... i rang my ex and i pleaded with him to stay home and be with the kids and supply my gf with money so she could look after the kids and pay the bills....and buy some groceries other than two packets of fish fingers of dinner for five children....i begged him if he could possibly call our son who was in juvenile detention and go see him as i wasnt able to comfort him from hospital my son was struggling with the break up and was in shock.....my son was blaming me for my weakness my depression...and really really upset.....the break up my fault..... the doctors in the hospital revoked my phone priveliges my son woudl cry to me on the phone in hospital and deeply distress me..... because i was still not concentrating on myself and the stress was hindering my recovery they did not allow my son to call me anymore....... he did not intend for me to find out that he abandoned my son at that time so when i rang him to ask on behalf of my family not for myself i didnt give a rats ass about myself.....i wanted to die.....i just wanted him to be there for our family until i recovered and i could take up my responsibility and duty as a mother and primary care giver..... he told me over the phone as i stood in a psych ward heavily medicated that is all i ever did was try to control him that i was a spastic and mental.....that my whole family was mental .....and demanding and that ifi didnt watch my step he would take the girls away from me and i would never ever see them again.....and my god send gf was nothing but a lying c.......and he hung up/......... i tried to break out..smash down the doors of the locked ward i was in........after that ...a few of the patients int here tried to settle me....a couple of male friends...they were unable to.....orderlies were called i was restrained and sedated by force......they didnt have an easy time.....my phone calls were monitored and censored after that..... by the way .......he left the kids at home that night...my gf had them at her place fed them bathed them looked after them read them stories watched movies with them ...adn cried on the phone to my mother when they were sleeping...sobbed her heart out for my girls..my mother sent my gf money whil emy wayward spouse went out on a yacht go twasted adn went home with his affair partner adn got it on happy as larry..............and my wayward spouse didnt intend for me to find that out either.....but it haunts me that i did he never came and saw me once in my three month stay in hospital......my gf came every time she could and bought the kids to remind me what i had to live for.... she bought me home made spinach dip and chocolate caramello koalas that i craved......and tampons i needed and shampoo and beautiful soap..... .....my ex has apologized and has shown me true remorse for all his a actions..... doesnt ever change the fact......it was abuse ....plain and simple...even if he never intended me to find out and i hadnt...it would still be abuse..it had extremely traumatic effect on innocents to all this......my girls my sons.....my girl friend...my extended family who suffered feeling helpless.... but can i leave thsi image with you instead.......i found out i was the luckiest woman alive ever in this world to have a friend like i had in my girlfriend..her heart...truly tender and beautiful..and my mum was a tower of strength to all....i am ashamed i was not strong enough to just be a real woman and do my duty as a mother like i should have.... i know my case is always going to be extreme for some...hard to believe...its all true......i dont lie...im not looking for sympathy.as i said i have forgiven my ex we are friends........but.....i will fight passionately to state that cheating is abuse.my case extreme but is abuse in all cases........i feel to do otherwise..to not be supporting the truth..would be a real sin on my behalf....my ex...has admitted he abused me horribly that he was f....ed up.........that is true remorse..... ps remembering this....my hands shake as I type....it will always be this way for me..its life...its the after effects of abuse...never cheat....and think you arent foranyoen who reads this.....dont be so thoughtless....please.......deb Edited April 2, 2017 by todreaminblue 3
amaysngrace Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 I think cheating on your spouse is abusive because the pain it inflicts can be the same as getting punched in the gut. 4
Arieswoman Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 So many mistakes , And when it's not being spoken by a cheater? I don't understand that ^^ I thought we were discussing cheating as abuse? In any event it's not a matter of intent, it's a matter of responsibility. The cheater ex bears the responsibility for the harm that caused and the pain that was felt. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is a truism for a reason. You can't escape responsibility simply by having a good intent - especially if your intent is absurdly at odds with the obvious rational outcomes of your actions. If you know that what you are doing will hurt someone, and you do it anyway, you are intentionally hurting that person. Even though hurting that person is not your goal, you know it will happen if you act, and you act anyway, so you intend the result. It isn't an accident, its a choice. the cheater doesn't intend to hurt their betrayed spouse because they don't intend for their betrayed spouse to ever find out about it ^^^ This is why I believe much cheating is rooted in narcissism. In addition, knowing they’ve done something that would hurt the partner subtly alters the perception of the BS. They got away with something, so they’re one up on them. This makes the BS appear either naïve and too trusting or vulnerable and hopelessly helpless. Good relationships are based on mutual admiration and respect, not pitying your partner or secretly thinking they’re stupid. Remember - People lie to children to protect them. People lie to adults to protect themselves. 2
todreaminblue Posted April 2, 2017 Posted April 2, 2017 So many mistakes , I don't understand that ^^ I thought we were discussing cheating as abuse? In any event it's not a matter of intent, it's a matter of responsibility. The cheater ex bears the responsibility for the harm that caused and the pain that was felt. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is a truism for a reason. You can't escape responsibility simply by having a good intent - especially if your intent is absurdly at odds with the obvious rational outcomes of your actions. If you know that what you are doing will hurt someone, and you do it anyway, you are intentionally hurting that person. Even though hurting that person is not your goal, you know it will happen if you act, and you act anyway, so you intend the result. It isn't an accident, its a choice. ^^^ This is why I believe much cheating is rooted in narcissism. In addition, knowing they’ve done something that would hurt the partner subtly alters the perception of the BS. They got away with something, so they’re one up on them. This makes the BS appear either naïve and too trusting or vulnerable and hopelessly helpless. Good relationships are based on mutual admiration and respect, not pitying your partner or secretly thinking they’re stupid. Remember - People lie to children to protect them. People lie to adults to protect themselves. on repeat....your words are so true it brings tears to my eyes so repeating your post.....xo 1
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