Standoffish Women, very difficult to read?

[ExposedBrick]

I went on two dates recently with a very attractive woman. The first we met for drinks for a few hours and the second was an early afternoon date that ended up lasting almost seven hours.

 

I'm not sure if it's just habitual or she is just a timid person, but she mostly displays standoffish body language. Most of the second date she had her arms crossed across her chest. During both dates, I made very light contact with her tapping her in the thigh with the back of my hand a few times or gently placing my hand on her shoulder for a few seconds.

 

The second date ended with a hug and a very awkward closed mouth kiss. I thought maybe she had a bad time. However, she texted me about 45 min afterwards letting me know she had fun and we set a tentative 3rd date.

 

I once went out with another standoffish woman for 3 dates but told her I didn't think we were compatible after the third date, as her body language didn't seem to loosen up. She acted shocked when I told her I didn't want to see her any more, even asking me what I thought the problem was?

 

I hate when women give mixed signals, so I don't feel great about this woman. I don't expect sex after 3 dates but I think a make out session is appropriate.

 

Are some women just unaware of their standoffish body language? I know not everyone is touchy-feely, which is fine by me, but physical contact does amplify attraction. I feel confused. Any ideas? Do I just need to give her time?

Edited March 27, 2017 by ExposedBrick

[preraph]

If they're on a repeat date with you, they're not stand-offish. I agree that you touched her and she her body language seemed tense. Maybe she is inexperienced or maybe she is being careful not to give you a message that she is okay with hooking up. You know online dating would make a woman defensive like that with most guys just wanting hookups.

 

I would say rather than trying to touch her leg, you keep it conventional and gentlemanly, like confined to hands or forearms, a hand on her back if you're steering her to a seat. Women understand the conventional polite touching. If you're touching leg, that may be alarming to someone on a first or second date or out in public.

 

Try just holding her hand when you're walking to and from the car or something like that and see if you get the same reaction or not.

 

She may warm up -- or she may just not be warm! Don't wait for flirting because a lot of women are too embarrassed to openly flirt.

[CaliforniaGirl]

It sounds like you were trying to use some sort of dating "formula" (we've all heard of this one...making sure to touch but using the back or side of the hand or using something other than the hand, like nudging with a shoulder...we women aren't supposed to guess at what this is, we're just supposed to fall right into it... ). Further, she appeared a bit closed from the beginning yet the place you decided to use this formula on was, of all places, her thigh...possibly THE most obviously "I want to get about two inches from here shortly" locale to pick. (This would be kind of like her accidentally brushing your azz with the back of her hand, or heck, up high on your jeans in the front, oops. What would you make of that? You know?) So she got seriously closed off because she feared you think of her as just a pump...and she's not.

 

Why? Because we women can generally tell when the guy is "trying for something" in this way no matter how smooth the attempt may seem to the attempter. And what it translates to is: This guy seems to want to get to the sex part and is thinking he can get me there with these little tricks, with my hardly even noticing I'm falling for it. NOPE. Especially with a woman who isn't into sex very early on in the relationship. (All women will vary in this, of course, and will vary depending upon the actual guy we're with and whether we do want him or whether we're not sure...etc. But her reserved nature from the beginning should have given you your clue.)

 

So she's still going out with you because she's wondering whether she is misreading what you're doing and she wants to find out if you do just want sex. If you keep kino-ing her like mad, and particularly on the thigh, but at this point even on the shoulder because now you've sensitized her to the fact that you're grabby even when she's giving you CLEAR signals she does not want to be touched at the moment, she'll be gone, guaranteed. Because that will just confirm her suspicions. She'll decide you were just looking for a pump...whether you were or not.

 

Just get to know her without making sure you oops, whoops, accidentally brush near her V with the "back" of your hand...okay? Get to know the woman. Back off a little. Stop entirely disrespecting her physical boundaries (remember...there's a word for that...not being dramatic...just sayin'.) See if she opens up a bit then, once she can trust you...this might take a bit longer, though, be aware of that, simply because you've acted distrustful so far in her eyes with the disrespect of her not wanting you to touch. She won't open up yet because she's not sure whether you're just a wolf, so she is, quite literally and physically, protecting herself until she can confirm what it is you want. OTOH, if you want to put in the work of showing her you aren't just out for a little, it may take a bit of time at this point. You're trying now to undo discomfort you've given her. So it's up to you whether you want to. If you do, please take my advice and back off and let her be comfortable.

 

Let us know how it goes.

[Larryville]

Cali is right and I don’t know what is going on or if more people who are seriously young are posting here, but I am seeing so many threads from people who CLEARLY have read some dating articles telling you what to look out for or expect.

 

They act like they have never had contact with a human being before.

 

please take my advice and back off and let her be comfortable.

 

Yup

 

Stop overthinking and enjoy the company

[CptInsano]

Also keep in mind that they may not be able to read you, either. I remember having a long date with a woman who seemed to enjoy herself, but it wasn't reflected in her body language at all. Taking a bit of a gamble I kissed her on the cheek before we parted, and she grabbed my hands and jumped with joy, happily surprised that I seemed interested. She wasn't able to read me previously, and I wasn't aware of that.

 

So yes, it can very well be that these women are unable to get a clear signal from you, or you are acting in a way that confuses them.

Edited March 27, 2017 by CptInsano

[ExposedBrick]

Also keep in mind that they may not be able to read you, either. I remember having a long date with a woman who seemed to enjoy herself, but it wasn't reflected in her body language at all. Taking a bit of a gamble I kissed her on the cheek before we parted, and she grabbed my hands and jumped with joy, happily surprised that I seemed interested. She wasn't able to read me previously.

 

So yes, it can very well be that these women are unable to get a clear signal from you.

 

Hmm, I guess it's possible. I wanted to make sure I at least attempted to kiss her to make sure she new I was interested. She just had very cold body language the whole time I've seen her, which makes me think it's just habitual.

[ExposedBrick]

Cali is right and I don’t know what is going on or if more people who are seriously young are posting here, but I am seeing so many threads from people who CLEARLY have read some dating articles telling you what to look out for or expect.

 

They act like they have never had contact with a human being before.

 

 

 

Yup

 

Stop overthinking and enjoy the company

 

I guess it's possible she is just very shy. Shyness and disinterest can look the same. I have found that a lack of physical contact can prevent things from taking off though.

[CptInsano]

Hmm, I guess it's possible. I wanted to make sure I at least attempted to kiss her to make sure she new I was interested. She just had very cold body language the whole time I've seen her, which makes me think it's just habitual.

 

She could have simply been guarded on a first date, or she was wearing something nice that she was uncomfortable in, or she was simply feeling cold. I would place far more importance on what she says, her level of jnterest, and how she acts after the date.

 

My example of a date had lasted 9 hours at the time I kissed her on the cheek. After that amount of time I was sure that she must have enjoyed my company on some level.

[ExposedBrick]

It sounds like you were trying to use some sort of dating "formula" (we've all heard of this one...making sure to touch but using the back or side of the hand or using something other than the hand, like nudging with a shoulder...we women aren't supposed to guess at what this is, we're just supposed to fall right into it... ). Further, she appeared a bit closed from the beginning yet the place you decided to use this formula on was, of all places, her thigh...possibly THE most obviously "I want to get about two inches from here shortly" locale to pick. (This would be kind of like her accidentally brushing your azz with the back of her hand, or heck, up high on your jeans in the front, oops. What would you make of that? You know?) So she got seriously closed off because she feared you think of her as just a pump...and she's not.

 

Why? Because we women can generally tell when the guy is "trying for something" in this way no matter how smooth the attempt may seem to the attempter. And what it translates to is: This guy seems to want to get to the sex part and is thinking he can get me there with these little tricks, with my hardly even noticing I'm falling for it. NOPE. Especially with a woman who isn't into sex very early on in the relationship. (All women will vary in this, of course, and will vary depending upon the actual guy we're with and whether we do want him or whether we're not sure...etc. But her reserved nature from the beginning should have given you your clue.)

 

So she's still going out with you because she's wondering whether she is misreading what you're doing and she wants to find out if you do just want sex. If you keep kino-ing her like mad, and particularly on the thigh, but at this point even on the shoulder because now you've sensitized her to the fact that you're grabby even when she's giving you CLEAR signals she does not want to be touched at the moment, she'll be gone, guaranteed. Because that will just confirm her suspicions. She'll decide you were just looking for a pump...whether you were or not.

 

Just get to know her without making sure you oops, whoops, accidentally brush near her V with the "back" of your hand...okay? Get to know the woman. Back off a little. Stop entirely disrespecting her physical boundaries (remember...there's a word for that...not being dramatic...just sayin'.) See if she opens up a bit then, once she can trust you...this might take a bit longer, though, be aware of that, simply because you've acted distrustful so far in her eyes with the disrespect of her not wanting you to touch. She won't open up yet because she's not sure whether you're just a wolf, so she is, quite literally and physically, protecting herself until she can confirm what it is you want. OTOH, if you want to put in the work of showing her you aren't just out for a little, it may take a bit of time at this point. You're trying now to undo discomfort you've given her. So it's up to you whether you want to. If you do, please take my advice and back off and let her be comfortable.

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

I'm not sure how I could be overstepping my boundaries by lightly and briefly nudging someone's outer thigh, near the knee, with the back of my hand during a lengthy conversation. I'm not a creeper. I don't see how this could be perceived as disrespectful.

 

My experience and thinking is more song these lines: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201202/how-flirt-and-seduce-touch-part-1

 

No touch results in friend zoning IMHO.

Edited March 27, 2017 by ExposedBrick

[SwordofFlame]

This is tricky OP. It's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Whatever you do, I would probably not attribute the behavior to shyness, but more to either she's not interested enough, or she's inexperienced and/or maybe even a little socially awkward.

 

In my experience when I've encountered these women, I usually just assume they're not interested and move on. In my inexperienced earlier days, I would attribute it to shyness or inexperience, but that only lead to additional dates that still didn't progress in any way.

 

I've come to the conclusion that if it's that hard to figure out if she wants you to touch her or not, than it's not worth the effort. Dating should be fun and easy in the beginning. You shouldn't have to deeply analyze her every action/inaction to figure out if she likes you or not, especially if you're meeting these women off of dating apps.

[ExposedBrick]

This is tricky OP. It's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Whatever you do, I would probably not attribute the behavior to shyness, but more to either she's not interested enough, or she's inexperienced and/or maybe even a little socially awkward.

 

In my experience when I've encountered these women, I usually just assume they're not interested and move on. In my inexperienced earlier days, I would attribute it to shyness or inexperience, but that only lead to additional dates that still didn't progress in any way.

 

I've come to the conclusion that if it's that hard to figure out if she wants you to touch her or not, than it's not worth the effort. Dating should be fun and easy in the beginning. You shouldn't have to deeply analyze her every action/inaction to figure out if she likes you or not, especially if you're meeting these women off of dating apps.

 

As I mentioned before, I had one other very similar experience before. Given what I know so far about her, she sounds like a socially awkward person. I know that I'm not overly aggressive with women, I'm always cordial and respectful. In fact, it's rare I don't get a second date.

 

If anything, I'm not aggressive enough towards women so I know it's not me here. She certainly didn't cringe or shy away from me touching her. I mean there is a reason she is single after all.

 

Is there a way to break past this or is it a waste of time?

Edited March 27, 2017 by ExposedBrick

[ExposedBrick]

It sounds like you were trying to use some sort of dating "formula" (we've all heard of this one...making sure to touch but using the back or side of the hand or using something other than the hand, like nudging with a shoulder...we women aren't supposed to guess at what this is, we're just supposed to fall right into it... ). Further, she appeared a bit closed from the beginning yet the place you decided to use this formula on was, of all places, her thigh...possibly THE most obviously "I want to get about two inches from here shortly" locale to pick. (This would be kind of like her accidentally brushing your azz with the back of her hand, or heck, up high on your jeans in the front, oops. What would you make of that? You know?) So she got seriously closed off because she feared you think of her as just a pump...and she's not.

 

Why? Because we women can generally tell when the guy is "trying for something" in this way no matter how smooth the attempt may seem to the attempter. And what it translates to is: This guy seems to want to get to the sex part and is thinking he can get me there with these little tricks, with my hardly even noticing I'm falling for it. NOPE. Especially with a woman who isn't into sex very early on in the relationship. (All women will vary in this, of course, and will vary depending upon the actual guy we're with and whether we do want him or whether we're not sure...etc. But her reserved nature from the beginning should have given you your clue.)

 

So she's still going out with you because she's wondering whether she is misreading what you're doing and she wants to find out if you do just want sex. If you keep kino-ing her like mad, and particularly on the thigh, but at this point even on the shoulder because now you've sensitized her to the fact that you're grabby even when she's giving you CLEAR signals she does not want to be touched at the moment, she'll be gone, guaranteed. Because that will just confirm her suspicions. She'll decide you were just looking for a pump...whether you were or not.

 

Just get to know her without making sure you oops, whoops, accidentally brush near her V with the "back" of your hand...okay? Get to know the woman. Back off a little. Stop entirely disrespecting her physical boundaries (remember...there's a word for that...not being dramatic...just sayin'.) See if she opens up a bit then, once she can trust you...this might take a bit longer, though, be aware of that, simply because you've acted distrustful so far in her eyes with the disrespect of her not wanting you to touch. She won't open up yet because she's not sure whether you're just a wolf, so she is, quite literally and physically, protecting herself until she can confirm what it is you want. OTOH, if you want to put in the work of showing her you aren't just out for a little, it may take a bit of time at this point. You're trying now to undo discomfort you've given her. So it's up to you whether you want to. If you do, please take my advice and back off and let her be comfortable.

 

Let us know how it goes.

 

This seems ludicrous. "Grabby" "disrespectful"; these extrapolations are ludicrous!

[smackie9]

Ya you need more game....the ladies like a guy that is confident, a little cocky/funny, playful, etc. If you are going to sit there like a stiff being all cordial, it's going to get you not very far.

[ExposedBrick]

She could have simply been guarded on a first date, or she was wearing something nice that she was uncomfortable in, or she was simply feeling cold. I would place far more importance on what she says, her level of jnterest, and how she acts after the date.

 

My example of a date had lasted 9 hours at the time I kissed her on the cheek. After that amount of time I was sure that she must have enjoyed my company on some level.

 

We had two dates which were both relatively long. Again, I don't randomly sleep with women or have an assigned schedule. However, how could you expect someone to warm up to you if you don't ease your guard down?! After all, isn't that how a relationship forms, small talk only goes so far.

[preraph]

I'm not sure how I could be overstepping my boundaries by lightly and briefly nudging someone's outer thigh, near the knee, with the back of my hand during a lengthy conversation. I'm not a creeper. I don't see how this could be perceived as disrespectful.

 

My experience and thinking is more song these lines: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-attraction-doctor/201202/how-flirt-and-seduce-touch-part-1

 

No touch results in friend zoning IMHO.

 

You are wrong. This is so transparent to a woman, as Cali has told you plainly. Women are not idiots to be "snuck up on" by slyly rubbing -- and yes, I'm afraid it does make you a creeper sneaking feels like that. You need to learn to relate to a woman's mind and as a person instead of learning crap techniques to get into her pants.

[CptInsano]

[...]

 

No touch results in friend zoning IMHO.

 

No, friend zoning results in no touch. You failed to make a connection and you are dealing with the results, no amount of touch is going to change that at this juncture.

 

Women will also reach out for you if they are interested, but that also didn't happen for some reason. Something went wrong earlier.

[CaliforniaGirl]

As I mentioned before, I had one other very similar experience before. Given what I know so far about her, she sounds like a socially awkward person. I know that I'm not overly aggressive with women, I'm always cordial and respectful. In fact, it's rare I don't get a second date.

 

If anything, I'm not aggressive enough towards women so I know it's not me here. She certainly didn't cringe or shy away from me touching her. I mean there is a reason she is single after all.

 

Is there a way to break past this or is it a waste of time?

 

There's a reason she's single?

 

In that case we can say there's a reason you're single too. Right?

 

You don't seem to actually like this girl at all. I mean did you really just say that? Is this really how you think? And if you can say something that nasty and insulting about her why the hell are you pursuing her? Leave her alone.

[Imajerk17]

I think the comments are a bit harsh on Exposed Brick.

 

1. If the women who are the subject of the OP's thread were really put-off that the OP were "techniquing" them, then they wouldn't be wanting another date. They would instead be closed-off AND avoiding OP's calls/texts after the date. Keep in mind that MOST first dates do not lead to second dates, that the OP is getting a lot of second dates means he is doing a lot of stuff right.

 

2. We as guys do have it drilled into us that we need to make some physical move on an early date otherwise the girl will think we aren't interested. Read the threads on here written by the women confused by a slow-moving guy to see for yourself. Sounds to me that the OP was doing it but doing it respectfully (again, he usually gets the second date).

 

My take is different: The women you went on a date with were simply shy and guarded. Some of them might not even realize that they are giving that impression--maybe they were thinking they were just Playing It Cool? If they keep wanting to see you again, then you are obviously doing things right.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Imajerk17

[CaliforniaGirl]

I think the comments are a bit harsh on Exposed Brick.

 

1. If the women who are the subject of the OP's thread were really put-off that the OP were "techniquing" them, then they wouldn't be wanting another date. They would instead be closed-off AND avoiding OP's calls/texts after the date. Keep in mind that MOST first dates do not lead to second dates, that the OP is getting a lot of second dates means he is doing a lot of stuff right.

 

2. We as guys do have it drilled into us that we need to make some physical move on an early date otherwise the girl will think we aren't interested. Read the threads on here written by the women confused by a slow-moving guy to see for yourself. Sounds to me that the OP was doing it but doing it respectfully (again, he usually gets the second date).i

 

My take is different: The women you went on a date with were simply shy and guarded. Some of them might not even realize that they are giving that impression--maybe they were thinking they were Playing It Cool? If they keep wanting to see you again, then you are obviously doing things right.

 

(shrug) Okay then, the OP should keep doing what he's doing and see what happens.

 

Good luck, OP..

[ExposedBrick]

I think the comments are a bit harsh on Exposed Brick.

 

1. If the women who are the subject of the OP's thread were really put-off that the OP were "techniquing" them, then they wouldn't be wanting another date. They would instead be closed-off AND avoiding OP's calls/texts after the date. Keep in mind that MOST first dates do not lead to second dates, that the OP is getting a lot of second dates means he is doing a lot of stuff right.

 

2. We as guys do have it drilled into us that we need to make some physical move on an early date otherwise the girl will think we aren't interested. Read the threads on here written by the women confused by a slow-moving guy to see for yourself. Sounds to me that the OP was doing it but doing it respectfully (again, he usually gets the second date).

 

My take is different: The women you went on a date with were simply shy and guarded. Some of them might not even realize that they are giving that impression--maybe they were thinking they were just Playing It Cool? If they keep wanting to see you again, then you are obviously doing things right.

 

I appreciate your comments. I don't "technique" women, but as the link implied things can fizzle or seem awkward without some mild touching.

 

Ladies, if a man showed up to a date, kept his arms crossed most of the time and had closed body language and made poor eye contact, you are honestly telling me that you would assume he is still interested? People casually touch each other as a sign of interest/comfort without trying to make a sexual move necessarily. How long would you realistically tolerate a man acting shy or guarded?

[CaliforniaGirl]

I appreciate your comments. I don't "technique" women, but as the link implied things can fizzle or seem awkward without some mild touching.

 

Ladies, if a man showed up to a date, kept his arms crossed most of the time and had closed body language and made poor eye contact, you are honestly telling me that you would assume he is still interested? People casually touch each other as a sign of interest/comfort without trying to make a sexual move necessarily. How long would you realistically tolerate a man acting shy or guarded?

 

No, I would not, and trust me, my reaction would NOT be, "Wow, he seems to want to keep his body to himself; he's giving me clear language that he isn't all that into this. I know...I'll start touching him."

 

I just...don't understand.

 

BTW, what do you mean..."tolerate"?

[preraph]

There is a lot of middle ground between not touching and crawling up someone's thigh. I think most women appreciate someone who acts like a gentleman and does polite not sex touching and then kisses her at the end of the night without trying to cop a feel while doing it. She clammed up on you with kissing and I bet it was because of the thigh touching.

[ExposedBrick]

There is a lot of middle ground between not touching and crawling up someone's thigh. I think most women appreciate someone who acts like a gentleman and does polite not sex touching and then kisses her at the end of the night without trying to cop a feel while doing it. She clammed up on you with kissing and I bet it was because of the thigh touching.

 

Taping someone on the thigh to emphasize a conversational point is not the same as "crawling up a thigh." She actually didn't seemingly react positively or negatively to any sort of touch. It didn't alter her behavior at all, which makes me think she is 1. Not a touchy-feely person 2. Probably on the shy side 3. She is admittedly a very straight-laced, play by the rules type of gal

 

Why would she agree to a third date if I was creeping her out? Why would she initiate contact after the second date?

[CaliforniaGirl]

Taping someone on the thigh to emphasize a conversational point is not the same as "crawling up a thigh." She actually didn't seemingly react positively or negatively to any sort of touch. It didn't alter her behavior at all, which makes me think she is 1. Not a touchy-feely person 2. Probably on the shy side 3. She is admittedly a very straight-laced, play by the rules type of gal

 

Why would she agree to a third date if I was creeping her out? Why would she initiate contact after the second date?

 

Because she's doubting her instincts that tell her it wasn't okay for you to "accidentally" touch her several times. She's trying to either confirm or reject what she suspects (she thinks you are probably just trying to get into her pants).

 

I think I actually already mentioned this upthread.

 

If you go ahead and whoops, bump her a few inches from her V during this next date (if she shows up for it) then you're probably toast.

 

But what do I know... I'm only a woman who experiences things like this in dating. The Dating Doctor or whatever you previously linked surely knows women better. Keep moving in slllllllowly and "tapping" at her thighs and let us know how it all goes. I could be fully wrong. Maybe she absolutely loves all this and on whatever planet she comes from, acting reserved and using closed body language means "tap my thighs some more."

 

Really, snide aside, do let us know how it goes. Good luck.

[act00]

I really don't have much advice. One thing about "giving up the goodies," is that men simply don't call again. You think it's all great, the feeling is mutual, and then he's gone. It makes it very difficult to judge when or if you should allow sex or making out or how much affection to allow or give.

 

Some people are just not touchy. They have their little space bubble, and they do not like their little bubble invaded, and worse when such touching comes from a male who could be on the path to a one-night-stand.

 

I love affection. The best dates I've been on have started with a hug. There's touching while talking, nothing along the lines of fondling. There may be hand holding later on. A hug, a kiss, maybe a good make-out session. I am all over this affection. This is when it's a seemingly mutual long-term potential type of situation. If the guy comes across as a playboy, who's shmoozing, and looking to get laid, well, that's quite a turn-off, and I certainly don't want to lead him on if I'm not interested in him.

 

I think I have to agree with some other posters, that between nerves and insecurity, and shyness, you might expect more closed-off body language on the first date, but this should improve over time, especially when you're talking or texting also during the week. If by date three? I don't know. Maybe best to move on. You seem to want someone more open to affection, and it's just not a compatible pairing whey they exhibit nothing.

 

The extreme closed-off body language you describe makes me wonder if you tend to migrate towards shy, church mouses.

 

I can also imagine many women see this forward behavior as sexual advances, which they are to a degree. Is this OLD, and do you ever discuss affection with these women and they you, while you're texting? I have had men tell me they they are this way, and I can only imagine the reason they feel the need to plop this on the table is because women have scurried away in the past.

 

It simply doesn't bother me, I enjoy it. Other women feel differently. I don't know that you're doing anything wrong, really.