The LoveShack theme: giving up rather than persistence?

[Kitchen]

I've been reading LoveShack for years. I first found it naturally after I went through a horrible breakup in 2013. Over the years I have come back whenever I've had women problems, but rarely when things were going well. I believe this is the case for most people.

 

For example, the number of people posting after a breakup or rejection >>> the number of people asking for advice regarding, say, how to propose to their significant other.

 

I think it's wonderful to have a support community like this, and there is certainly a lot of great advice that gets passed around. But unfortunately it also creates a negative environment, in which "giving up" appears to always be the best option vs. "persistence". And I think there is a time to give up, but a time to persist, unfortunately indecipherable over the internet in most cases.

 

I'll give a simple example. My 2013 breakup was with my one and only girlfriend, and the only girl I ever loved. We dated for 1 year, before which we were friends for 6 months. However, when we first started dating, we were riddled with problems from day one:

 

She wanted to get married within a year. Her parents were big believers in astrology and horoscopes, and I had to pass all this astrology screening to see if I was good enough. I wasn't ready to get married that quickly. At the same time, I was just starting out 4 year grad school and she insisted that she can only be with someone with a stable income. It was a mess. We started dating, broke up, started dating, broke up again, and finally became bf/gf for real, about a month after our first date.

 

Our break up in 2013 was also ridiculous. We were young, stupid, and to this day I believe, and I strongly feel that she believes, we should have stayed together.

 

But back to the purpose of this thread. Imagine I came on here posting all those ridiculous things looking for advice? I can guarantee that almost everyone would have told me to "move on", "NC", or how "she's not really into you", etc etc. And I wouldn't blame anyone either because on surface we just looked ridiculous.

 

But I persisted and fought for her. I loved her like I never loved anyone before or since. I knew I had to make it work. And it worked. Now maybe my persistence might not have paid off. And of course we broke up anyway, but the point is, that giving up was not the answer.

 

She loved me too, but was either too stupid to realize, or wanted the chase, or a mix of both. And that's fine. I feel most things in life don't come easy. Just look at nature and the mating ritual for most animals. The female makes the male fight for it in almost all cases lol.

 

Anyway the point of this thread is to just raise awareness that it's not always a question of finding the path of least resistance, because often times there is resistance. You just have to know within you when it's time to give up, and when you should keep trying. And you can never know 100%, but that's life.

 

Just my thoughts, maybe others disagree, but thought it would be nice to discuss at least.

[PrettyEmily77]

Posters seek advice here, but they are not duty-bound to take it.

 

Sometimes those who have been through similar experiences can see the writing on the wall ahead of time in some instances and are trying to help others avoid unnecessary pain and hurt, or at least make sense of the pain they are in.

 

For me, I come here to get a different perspective and always find a wealth of experiences and insights to compare and confront my own belief systems - never in a million years would I take a life-changing decision directly impacting my life on the say-so of an online community, though; I still am responsible for my own choices, and assume most posters are that way.

[Jj66]

A rain drop falling on one side of the mountain near the top may have a journey of thousands of miles by following the pathe of least resistance. But if it were ton go up hill for an inch it might only have a a journey of a hundred miles. The path of least resistance isn't always the best. But pushing up hill for extended periods is just ridiculous. The wisdom is to know when it makes sense to do a litrle work and when it makes sense to run away down the side of the mountain.

[carhill]

Been here for nearly a decade and viewed a wide variety of styles and results. Bottom line for me is when you meet one relationship, you meet one relationship. Back when I was married, I used to say the same thing about marriages. Each is unique and, generally, no outsider has more insight into the relationship than those who prosecute it publicly and behind closed doors.

 

In support of your persistence premise, I tried that in the latter part of our M but it was MC which finally gave me the tools and resolve to accept the real. That was one experience. Persistence didn't work. It could another time, for someone else. These days, with life relatively short, I don't spend much time trying to read the minds of others, rather trying to remember my own stuff. Other folks take care of themselves. If we get together for awhile, cool. That's it.

[Kitchen]

A rain drop falling on one side of the mountain near the top may have a journey of thousands of miles by following the pathe of least resistance. But if it were ton go up hill for an inch it might only have a a journey of a hundred miles. The path of least resistance isn't always the best. But pushing up hill for extended periods is just ridiculous. The wisdom is to know when it makes sense to do a litrle work and when it makes sense to run away down the side of the mountain.

 

Exactly. It's a delicate balance between figuring out when to stay and when to go.

 

All I'm saying is that the advice on here, from what I've seen, has always been to give up. I originally posted this in the "Dating" forum but it was moved, but I'm talking about dating advice more so than relationship.

 

I don't have too much experience, but the idea of fighting for a woman makes sense, but only the person fighting can determine. I fully get that people get way too caught up and go way too far in the name of persistence (I have as well). But I fear that people also give up easily when they shouldn't.

[Kitchen]

Been here for nearly a decade and viewed a wide variety of styles and results. Bottom line for me is when you meet one relationship, you meet one relationship. Back when I was married, I used to say the same thing about marriages. Each is unique and, generally, no outsider has more insight into the relationship than those who prosecute it publicly and behind closed doors.

 

In support of your persistence premise, I tried that in the latter part of our M but it was MC which finally gave me the tools and resolve to accept the real. That was one experience. Persistence didn't work. It could another time, for someone else. These days, with life relatively short, I don't spend much time trying to read the minds of others, rather trying to remember my own stuff. Other folks take care of themselves. If we get together for awhile, cool. That's it.

 

What is MC?

 

Sorry it didn't work out for you.

[thefooloftheyear]

Persistence is a noble trait...For work endeavors, home improvement projects, diets, exercise, etc...

 

Not for relationships..

 

Its not supposed to be hard....Its supposed to be fluid, mutually beneficial, and cooperative...No one should have to beat someone into submission, so to speak....

 

I know there are stories where it "worked", but id be curious if that wasn't just an issue of one party just "settling"

 

Eh...No thanks..

 

TFY

[Kitchen]

Persistence is a noble trait...For work endeavors, home improvement projects, diets, exercise, etc...

 

Not for relationships..

 

Its not supposed to be hard....Its supposed to be fluid, mutually beneficial, and cooperative...No one should have to beat someone into submission, so to speak....

 

I know there are stories where it "worked", but id be curious if that wasn't just an issue of one party just "settling"

 

Eh...No thanks..

 

TFY

 

Yes and no.

 

After some time of persistence, aka "courting", things should settle in and both parties should put in effort. Fully agree with you that a relationship in and of itself should fluid/beneficial/cooperative.

 

But if you're saying that the beginning should be like that too, I'd have to disagree. I can tell you my own example, and I'm looking at it objectively as it's been almost 5 years - I persisted, it hurt like hell, we dated, we broke up, it hurt like hell, I'm fine now, but it did work and it was beautiful. And no she didn't settle, the breakup was mutual, and she was just as hurt as I was.

 

It's genetics 101. Men can plant many seeds at once, but a woman can only accept one at a time. Of course she's going to be more hesitant.

[preraph]

Bottom line is if it's not working it's not going to work. If one person isn't into it anymore, it's broken. One person can't keep it going. I was someone who found it very hard to stop trying, but I look back and wish I could reclaim those wasted years working on the same man who was a lost cause, whose head wasn't all the way into a relationship with me. Time is precious. And also accepting scraps makes you look pathetic to everyone and just brings more your way.

[carhill]

What is MC?

 

Sorry it didn't work out for you.

MC = marital counseling, in our case with a clinical psychologist. Great toolbox. I was socialized as a one and done by parents who were married for life. That was my programming. I had to learn to give some flexibility to that, to accept what was in front of me. Of course one always has the choice to fight, to persist. For some that works, for others not.

[Miss Spider]

I dunno about breakups subforum because I don't hang out there...but the dating subforum has a great follow up rate. Most return to update with their course of action (often contra to the advice given) up until the crash and burn

[curiouslysearching]

I dunno about breakups subforum because I don't hang out there...but the dating subforum has a great follow up rate. Most return to update with their course of action (often contra to the advice given) up until the crash and burn

 

Cookie..........you are top shelf in every way possible

[Chilli]

l do notice myself the opting out thing and l do agree in many cases l've read that it often does seem way too soon or rash for the situation.

l do often think holy hell no wonder people are here nothings gonna work out with these attitudes they're expecting the impossible.

 

But l have suggested it myself too, even just today and even just today l've started my own thread thinking about exactly that myself , giving it up. Haven't had any answers yet but l'm looking forward to hearing what people think.

But , we face huge issues , like needing to move to the other side of the world for example.

But generally , l do tend to dig and scratch a bit into a situation myself, but that does depend.

There are a couple of def' no no's in my book, like cheating.

 

Anyway , l notice a lot of the youngies here too and often think they shouldn't even be here and couldn't have been 15 or more yrs ago. lt's an unnatural exposure now to everything internet and things and ideals that normally effect people that have had marriages or far more life. l do believe and see it all the time that jadedness and expectations coming from it all in people way to young to be there yet.

Hate to think of the warped up generations to come now from all this tbh,it already is , it's everywhere, in 17yrolds even.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Chilli

[Arieswoman]

One of the hardest things I learned when I was divorced and dating was when to quit.

 

Looking back, I spent too much time trying to fix stuff/people/situations that couldn't be fixed.

 

Once you've learned to just walk away it's very empowering.

[elaine567]

This forum is full of extremes.

People post on here when all the usual things have been tried and failed, When the behaviour of their SO is alarming, when they are at the end of their tether, when they don't know what to do any more to make it better.

It is thus often a no-brainer for experienced posters to say "Walk away. Nothing good will ever come of this". It is not being negative it is just being pragmatic.

Relationships are supposed to be easy and fun, not full of angst, drama and upset. People spend too much time trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Life is so much better when the peg exactly fits the hole...

 

I don't really see the merits of persistence and it often has a dark side. Forcing, bullying, emotionally blackmailing weaker individuals to stay in bad relationships because of supposed "love" is not right and should not be condoned.

Love should be about freedom and unfettered choice, not about having to eventually give in to someone else's persistent demands.

[d0nnivain]

To quote Kenny Rodgers, "You gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em."

 

 

On LS we get one side: the bad side. Knowing only the bad, stuff, which your own example shows is worse when written down, the advice is often to break up. RL is more complex & there are nuances.

 

 

I myself stayed in a bad relationship for about 12 years, living together for 10. There was a lot wrong & LS would have told me to RUN! But I didn't completely understand that some of it was broken; I blamed myself & of course, I loved him. (ha) I wish I'd had a forum like this to give me the courage to get out earlier than I did.

 

 

But some people do give up too easily. Years ago, on a family vacation, DH & I got in a huge fight over something stupid. I had asked him to switch my phone service to the temporary international plan I bought for the trip. You have to call on the new phone before you leave home & switch the device. He didn't understand that & planned to do it when we landed. You can't, because you can't call anybody without an international sym card. It was something I needed for work & I was stressed that I now had no phone. Since it was for work he got defensive & said I should have done it myself. We fought. My extended family started making plans to get him home & for me to get a divorce. I was like WTF? I don't want a divorce over a phone. I want to be pissed & the next day when the wireless stores opened, I planned to go buy an expensive disposable phone. In the short run (for the rest of the day & probably until I got a new working phone in my hands) I wanted to be pissed but I wasn't about to end my marriage over it.

[Arieswoman]

To quote Kenny Rodgers, "You gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em."

 

^^^^^ this is very astute advice

[salparadise]

It is thus often a no-brainer for experienced posters to say "Walk away. Nothing good will ever come of this". It is not being negative it is just being pragmatic.

 

There are obviously two ways to look at it. Pragmatic? Well, the need for love, connection, affection, companionship aren't very pragmatic... beyond facilitating procreation anyway. So yea, if pragmatic is the goal all of this relationship wanting-seeking-obsession is a huge waste of time and effort. They make life-size, blow-up dolls that seem to be quite pragmatic.

 

Relationships are supposed to be easy and fun, not full of angst, drama and upset. People spend too much time trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Life is so much better when the peg exactly fits the hole...

 

Supposed to be easy and fun, exclusively, eh? Okay. If that's true then I guess about 98.25 percent of all relationships SHOULD BE terminated. That would be the pragmatic thing to do, of course.

 

I don't really see the merits of persistence and it often has a dark side. Forcing, bullying, emotionally blackmailing weaker individuals to stay in bad relationships because of supposed "love" is not right and should not be condoned.

Love should be about freedom and unfettered choice, not about having to eventually give in to someone else's persistent demands.

 

Hmmm. I don't associate forcing, bullying, or blackmail of weaker people with persistence. I view persistence and dedication as being somewhat synonymous, and I have positive feelings about them.

 

Overall, I think LS has a disproportionate share of cynical people. They tend to come here when they're hurting and confused, and I guess cynicism is an instinctual reaction to the pain of having loved and lost, and the difficulty of life generally. There's no doubt that people can use it to avoid risk and complications, but is that the path to a more fulfilling experience during our time on earth? I don't think so.

 

I agree that a lot of the 'cut and run' advice comes from pragmatism, but what many of these posters are failing to acknowledge is the strong human need for love and connection. They tend to leave empathy behind when they choose cynicism and pragmatism as a means of coping with loss and the lack of fulfillment in their own lives. It's so easy to say, ah, I wouldn't put up with this behavior or that attitude or whatever... but in doing so they ignore the very thing that balances pragmatism––human emotion and the need for authentic connection, bonding and caring deeply for another person. People post about the problem, and responders say 'just cut it out and find someone else' as if that's the easy, obvious, pragmatic solution to any relationship problem. And I guess it is from a certain perspective, esp. if you've checked empathy at the door.

 

I greatly appreciate all the people here who see other's pain and heartbreak from a place of empathy first. That's really what people need when they're asking for help... connection with and understanding of the emotional aspects of human existence. I was very lucky to have had that kind of support recently.

Edited March 18, 2017 by salparadise

[elaine567]

But some people do give up too easily. Years ago, on a family vacation, DH & I got in a huge fight over something stupid. I had asked him to switch my phone service to the temporary international plan I bought for the trip. You have to call on the new phone before you leave home & switch the device. He didn't understand that & planned to do it when we landed. You can't, because you can't call anybody without an international sym card. It was something I needed for work & I was stressed that I now had no phone. Since it was for work he got defensive & said I should have done it myself. We fought. My extended family started making plans to get him home & for me to get a divorce. I was like WTF? I don't want a divorce over a phone. I want to be pissed & the next day when the wireless stores opened, I planned to go buy an expensive disposable phone. In the short run (for the rest of the day & probably until I got a new working phone in my hands) I wanted to be pissed but I wasn't about to end my marriage over it.

 

I don't really think had you come on LS about this incident that many would have told you to divorce him.

[d0nnivain]

Elaine -- I don't think LS would have told me to divorce over the phone business either. I was shocked that my own family did but they are all divorced (except my dad; my mom had recently died).

 

 

My point in sharing that story is that there are plenty of people not on LS who also give up too easily.

[elaine567]

Hmmm. I don't associate forcing, bullying, or blackmail of weaker people with persistence. I view persistence and dedication as being somewhat synonymous, and I have positive feelings about them.

But persistence and dedication are not really synonymous at all.

Dedication is usually a good quality in relationships, persistence a lot less so.

Persistence implies pushing against resistance, dedication implies pushing against an open door.

 

persistence

pəˈsɪst(ə)ns/

noun

noun: persistence

the fact of continuing in an opinion or course of action in spite of difficulty or opposition.

 

dedication

dɛdɪˈkeɪʃ(ə)n/

noun

noun: dedication

the quality of being dedicated or committed to a task or purpose.

[Arieswoman]

donnavain,

 

My point in sharing that story is that there are plenty of people not on LS who also give up too easily.

 

Well, maybe they do, maybe they don't.

 

IMO there is a difference between someone dropping a "blooper" and a someone showing a track record of undesirable traits.

[thefooloftheyear]

Think of it this way....

 

Forrest Gump was persistent with Jenny...He loved her dearly..She dismissed him, and passed him by for years and years(the best years of her life)...Slap on the back, pat on the head, then off to the next guy/party/adventure...

 

She blows it out, dead broke, nowhere to turn, and then comes back...Great...and a terminal illness for good measure..

 

Makes for a cute story....but who wants to be on the end of that?? Is that winning at this game??

 

Not for me, that's for sure..

 

I have a close friend thats been doing this nonsense with a woman for almost 4 years now...He's convinced she'll "come around" and his persistence will win her over...During that time, she has been with several other guys...And he sees nothing wrong with it...Yep...Old Reliable...Like an old Labrador, just patiently waiting...

 

I give more credit to women than men in these cases...They seem much more capable of cutting something that doesn't work....Some of these guys think these woman they "fight" for are the last one's walking the face of the earth...

 

TFY

[CaliforniaGirl]

Here's how I see it, and I admit I haven't read all the replies...usually I do, but I'm kind of rushed...sorry.

 

Anyway...

 

The way I see it is, if things are dire/confusing/uncomfortable/scary enough for someone to literally be reaching out to utter strangers for answers, that tells me that very often (not every single time...I'm sure there are exceptions but I am seeing these as the minority), the issue is somewhat more likely to be a deal-breaker.

 

Let me explain. If it were just a simple question, someone wondering...initial relationship growing pains, which as the OP described always happen...then why wouldn't the input of the poster's family/friends be enough? Because surely s/he has started there.

 

What this tells me is one or more of these possibilities...

 

1. Possibly, the person already cycled through family/friends and they're sick of the same question that doesn't have a resolution...ergo...the question probably doesn't have a resolution...ergo...it's probably unfixable.

 

2. The person may have cycled through family/friends who have flat-out told the person that they've had enough of hearing him/her cry about a relationship that is hurting the person...so now the person has moved on to asking strangers, rather than do the intelligent thing: break up.

 

3. The person hasn't asked family and friends at all because deep down, s/he already knows the answer is that the SO isn't into them/is cheating/won't call/is a player/isn't right for them or...whatever, and they DON'T WANT TO HEAR THAT, so they think couching things in a very careful way on the internet (v. IRL, where family and friends are watching ALL facets of the issue) may give them the answer they want.

 

I don't think the problem is that in general, people give up too soon. I think the problem is that if the person is reduced to carefully wording their situation to total strangers hoping like hell that these strangers will give them some magical new answer v. what they know the real answer is, and that's why they're going on the internet in the first place.

 

Again, this is not EVERY SINGLE case, ere anyone get his/her knickers twisted.

 

But a pretty significant part of the time?

 

Yeah, what I've said above. Sorry, but if you think about it, you know it's true. Sometimes, when we aren't hearing what we want to hear from people who actually know us and are observing ALL the angles of what we're going through, we go running to strangers, looking for backup...for excuses and reasons "not to give up" even if not giving up means disaster.

 

So as I see it, this (not "giving up too easily") is the main reason so many answers on a given relationship forum are to, indeed, just give up. Because even going to total strangers, perhaps hiding details here and there to slant things to our side/argument, the sickness/inherent wrongness/inevitable failure-to-come of the association/issue is still evident, and the answer is still going to be: this isn't right for you...a relationship does involve learning curves and stumbles, but it should never be this much work.

[Popsicle]

There is plenty of persistence on this forum. Check at the Infidelity section for that. Hell, just look around you at the couples you see. I'll bet many of them are persisting.

 

As to whether it's better to persist or to bail, especially when dating, well, there's that old saying "It's better to have loved and lost then to never have loved at all", so you can go by that, or you can go by "Life is short". Meaning too short to waste time on going nowhere relationships. Pick your poison.