CDuke93 Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 Hey Everyone! I'm going to break down the story into facts so that it's easier to manage and understand. - Dated 1.5 years; Summer 2015, went LD for Fall 2015, moved back and living near ex - Both 23 - Excellent relationship until LD; started fighting frequently, almost broke it off in Dec until I moved here - She is Christian, I was not until I met her, we are now equal in faith - Started having sex near end of summer; to make it seem "not sinful", we made vows and prayed to be married - We planned getting married until 2016; friends were excited. - Similar life goals: want to serve God, have a family, ok with adopted/own children, live in Edmonton near her family - Lots of integration; volunteered at Sunday School with her, gym together, lifeguard together, would do multiple dates, give lots of gifts, did alot of Acts of Service and physical touches (Her Love Languages) - Alot of tools from our therapy and conferences: 5 minute appreciation prayers, I statements, Speaker-Listener technique - Had a lot of really good ups, and really bad lows; she always talked about how the lows could have been from other things - Lived with her father (parents were divorced), only 10 minutes away; saw each other alot - Near end of relationship frequent fighting over smallest things; she would "attack verbally" and I would stonewall or react passively - She was quick to anger and critical of people; I was quick to get hurt and express that - Saw some negative traits in my dad (lies, ego), asked my mom (divorced) if he had a mental disorder and was concerned I would have one. - She suffers from endometriosis (was there was she needed me for that), and is on a progesterone for it (until April). Family has depression in all females (her 2 sisters and mom) - Went to couple council twice, switched to different one due to her preference -> each session really helped! (We also went to seminars for marriage and wore promise rings) - After fights we would make-up and promise not to leave each other and be committed for life; these types of messages came about alot throughout the relationship. - Near the end I became more self-centered, I would walk away if she attacked me verbally and said she felt suicidal (never planned or was diagnosed, I would make sure parent or someone else stayed with her while I cooled off) - Near the end I became less interested in sex The Break-Up: - I lied to her twice; about playing video games and applying for medical school (Reasons below) - With each lie, I defended my position until the lie came out through being caught - Her parents and family loved me; feel that her criticism/judgement made it hard to connect. - After the medical school lie came out (started in September, came out on Feb. 15), she was devastated and took a break. - Over the next couple days I talked to mutual friends about the situation; 4 days later she broke up with me - Father asked; she couldn't handle the lie and that she couldn't trust someone who lied - Made a pro-con list: Pros = funny/humor/gifts/vacation/effort into relationship/plan for life..... Cons = lies, all-or-none thinking, fighting too much, gossip/judgy, manipulation - During Breakup: not getting back together, maybe in a couple years (said 1 year to her Mom). - Told friends the relationship was toxic (due to fighting), couldn't marry a lying/fighting person Ongoing Situation: - Did 2 weeks NC; texted her "Wanted to see if you needed more time, would love to chat if you are feeling ok"; she replied with "Need two more weeks, we are not getting back together so we should both just move on" - She has been out with two other guys - Friend texted me what was in her diary: 1) Alot more happier without me, felt the relationship was hell and a half 2) Wasn't really into the sex especially because of the vows. 3) Worried that if we chat soon, she might cave in and come back; wouldn't because of how bad the relationship was 4) Really happy to be single and flirting; feels that her self-esteem and ego comes from others (Dad Issue) 5) Felt that I dint pursue sex or pursue her enough, that the security wasn't always there and that I left her when she was feeling really really sad (even if I was emotionally hurt). 6) Wants to date for a couple months, find a really hot nice guy and not settle 7) All her relationships have been rocky/destructive due to her criticism/anger and both people get hurt; stems from her childhood and father Felt that I was all talk and no action 9) Was really horny these past few weeks, almost went home with guy she met at bar (didn't want to feel guilty). - I went to talk to a couple pastors at local church to get a couple opinions; most said to give it space and time - She went to talk to a Pastor; he said don't get back with him no matter what, he has borderline personality disorder - She said to family/friends; So much happier I am single, I have hope for the future, never getting back with him again, love him as person not a partner, no feelings - Got baptized, her dad came but she didn't (felt I was using God to manipulate her) - I am currently undergoing Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (lie due to fear of being rejected), seeking God intensely, going to gym/taekwondo, and being active in church community - Psychologist states I don't have any issues, only self-defeating beliefs and cognitive distortions which can be ironed out - Living on my own - Attend some events with mutual friends; not bringing up ex and appearing really strong. Conclusion: - I realize that who I was at the end of the relationship was not who I was in the beginning or want to be - This girl has the qualities (when not fighting) that I'd love in a wife, I promised I wouldn't quit on her - Her/Friends think I am doing this only for her - Family sees the change and are very happy! - I plan to wait another 6-8 weeks, then reach out to her for a talk/coffee; I'd like to show her the changes, affirm how she feels, and see if she'd like to take it slow - I feel waiting this long will help the "anger/resentment" of relationship die down, the nostalgia come out, and help us both heal/grow. - Reasoning for continuing: I see my errors, am committed to working on being a better person and self-less hearted and I feel that this would drastically improve the quality of a new relationship with her. I feel that with the tools, experience, living on my own (no need to fight for my independence), and both of us growing, we would be successful if reconciled. I also realize that this was a strong wake-up call on where my heart was placed (getting baptisted changed it) - Unlike her previous ex's, I'm willing to fight for love (even if my improvements don't change how she feels), especially since the traits/personality which drove us together/kept us close (sometimes) will not change over time. What is your opinion?? Ask if you need more details
ExpatInItaly Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 Honestly? Way too much work, way too much drama, and way too many unrealistic promises for such a short-lived relationship. You're both very young. This isn't what healthy love looks like. She sounds unstable and you were getting sucked into it. Please, consider your own well-being and don't go back for more. It won't end well for you if you do. 1
Sweetfish Posted March 10, 2017 Posted March 10, 2017 Wow, this is highly complex situation. Brownie points for being very self aware... You need to work on you and define your self. i agree there os toooo much drama 1
DarrenB Posted March 11, 2017 Posted March 11, 2017 A lot of people assume reconciliation will commence after a couple days/weeks of personal development, but they'll still be in contact with their ex and have made almost no attempt to focus on what they should be focusing on. I'm not saying that's your mentality, but what I am saying is you should perhaps this time and effort you're putting in for you, not her or for potential reconciliation in the future. What you don't want is to make significant progress but still be hoping to re-gain what you had lost within her. Because, well if unfortunately that doesn't happen then you are left in moments of despair, grief and essentially wasted time. Like I say, I only believe reconciliation may be of benefit to you and the other person if both parties have developed enough as individuals and have properly moved past the dilemmas of which transpired through the R/S. Again, it doesn't happen over night, nor a day, week or really months. Are you willing to wait? willing to wait and progress for her to perhaps never come back?
Author CDuke93 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Posted March 11, 2017 A lot of people assume reconciliation will commence after a couple days/weeks of personal development, but they'll still be in contact with their ex and have made almost no attempt to focus on what they should be focusing on. I'm not saying that's your mentality, but what I am saying is you should perhaps this time and effort you're putting in for you, not her or for potential reconciliation in the future. What you don't want is to make significant progress but still be hoping to re-gain what you had lost within her. Because, well if unfortunately that doesn't happen then you are left in moments of despair, grief and essentially wasted time. Like I say, I only believe reconciliation may be of benefit to you and the other person if both parties have developed enough as individuals and have properly moved past the dilemmas of which transpired through the R/S. Again, it doesn't happen over night, nor a day, week or really months. Are you willing to wait? willing to wait and progress for her to perhaps never come back? Great perspective! I appreciate you putting this amount of thought into your reply. She mentioned that she wanted to be single for 3+ months since she identifies she has anger/critical/judgemental issues and these have ALWAYS led to broken/unstable relationships with both people getting hurt. She doesn't trust herself to not do this to the next individual she dates. I am working on myself for me. I realized that who I was at the end of the relationship was not who I really wanted to be (I became complacent). This was the motive for devoting to God and undergoing CBT. To answer your question, I'll have my heart open to reconsideration after a good sitdown. Never would I blindly take her back. We know our issues and if we can work on them separately, coming together could be a good thing. The difficult thing is (based on my psychologist) even if your just dating other guys (which she is doing), personal development won't happen. Since she is filling this self-esteem/ego depression with the pleasure high of flirting/dating. It's distracting her from developing and may end up with repeating the cycle.....
Author CDuke93 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Posted March 11, 2017 Hey everyone, Does anyone else have additional input? A friend of mine was saying that this could be her in an "anger" emotional state. Until enough time passes, she won't see the relationship/me any different. I texted her on Sunday: Me: "Hey, wanted to know if you needed more time/space. You popped up in my mind while I was at church. Would love to chat if your comfortable" Her: "Hey, I still need space, two weeks. Not to be harsh but we're not getting back together and it's best if we both move on" Me: "Thanks for getting back to me so quickly, I appreciate that. I'll touch base with you in two weeks and I'll respect your wishes" I was planning to write a letter for the two week contact. I'd take responsibility for some of the incidents, explain how I've changed and what would have happened differently, and then gently explain that if she would like to reconsider in the future I'd respect a yes/no. It's a little worrying since she is now talking/casual dating another guy.
Miss Spider Posted March 11, 2017 Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) Horrible idea. Healthy relationships aren't marred with drama. The history always follows. People don't break up without reason. People don't change all that much. It's not that they can't change. It's just they don't go through the rigoous process to do it. When they do change, they can be a better partner for a new person on a clean slate. Going down the path of an ex with a history filled with drama and heartbreak is like gluing a vase shattered into hundreds of pieces back together. A long time, might work, but there's gonna be holes and it'll always be ugly. Move on. There is a healthy, loving relationship waiting for you Edited March 11, 2017 by Cookiesandough
Author CDuke93 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Posted March 11, 2017 Horrible idea. Healthy relationships aren't marred with drama. The history always follows. People don't break up without reason. People don't change all that much. It's not that they can't change. It's just they don't go through the rigoous process to do it. When they do change, they can be a better partner for a new person on a clean slate. Going down the path of an ex with a history filled with drama and heartbreak is like gluing a vase shattered into hundreds of pieces back together. A long time, might work, but there's gonna be holes and it'll always be ugly. Move on. There is a healthy, loving relationship waiting for you I am changing drastically (Coming to God, weekly Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, living on my own) which were motivated by reflecting on who I was at the end of the relationship (not who I wanted to be). I feel that if she had time to grow (not dating like she is) and we had time, things could work out for the better. I feel the breakup was due to the issues I/her have and that I lived so close (with her divorced dad). A new start in the future would definitely prevent the same things from occurring! The values and actions she showed during the relationship, were things I'd love in a marriage down the road. People are irreplaceable. I'm planning to move on, however I feel the letter will put the ball completely in her court, show her I care and perhaps allow her to see the situation in a different light in the future (she never has gone back to an ex though...). Note: I wouldn't take her back easily. There would have to be change on both ends. Deep down she is a sweet, attractive, committed girl.
carhill Posted March 11, 2017 Posted March 11, 2017 Welcome to LS.... Have you ever proactively broken up with a lady because you lost your like/love/attraction/whatever? If you have, have you ever reconciled under such circumstances? Ever wanted to? Why or why not? How did it go? Since you're 23, I'd give that excellent and thorough post a good read, save it away for future reference, write the letter, don't send it and go on enjoying your youth and resolve not to discuss marriage with a dating partner so quickly at your age. No rush. Dating is fun. Relationships are positive experiences. When you start writing lists, IMO consider one very important relationship canary to have suffocated. That's alright. That's what canaries are for, to keep you from dying in the mine. Pay attention to them.
Author CDuke93 Posted March 11, 2017 Author Posted March 11, 2017 Welcome to LS.... Have you ever proactively broken up with a lady because you lost your like/love/attraction/whatever? If you have, have you ever reconciled under such circumstances? Ever wanted to? Why or why not? How did it go? Since you're 23, I'd give that excellent and thorough post a good read, save it away for future reference, write the letter, don't send it and go on enjoying your youth and resolve not to discuss marriage with a dating partner so quickly at your age. No rush. Dating is fun. Relationships are positive experiences. When you start writing lists, IMO consider one very important relationship canary to have suffocated. That's alright. That's what canaries are for, to keep you from dying in the mine. Pay attention to them. Thanks, I'll take a look at it. Well, we both wanted the same thing; marry young, have a family, save sex for marriage (didn't happen) and pursue God. Why don't you agree with sending the letter? I felt it honored what I said about touching base, showing that I love her, not being clingy/chasey, and leaving the ball completely in her court. Right, and the list I've done up is getting worked on. I think in this case it was my emotional sensititivity/her anger. We have the personality compatibility (humor/date ideas/romantic moments/affection), but where we are with anger/emotional issues isn't right. I believe that's where my hope for future recons. comes from.
Author CDuke93 Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 Wow, this is highly complex situation. Brownie points for being very self aware... You need to work on you and define your self. i agree there os toooo much drama Do you feel there is too much drama for a second chance in the future? I think we both need to develop/mature in our own ways. Tough though since as soon as we broke up she was out at clubs and on Tinder.
dumbass2 Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 "We're not getting back together and it's best we both move on" She does not want to reconcile with you. Her actions clearly show you that. On Tinder that quickly, going to clubs and dating other guys means that she feels she has nothing to work on. The ball is already in her court. She knows what you want and how you feel. You're in the denial stage right now because you just glance right past the "not getting back together" and only see the two weeks. Write the letter for yourself but do not ever send it.
Author CDuke93 Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 "We're not getting back together and it's best we both move on" She does not want to reconcile with you. Her actions clearly show you that. On Tinder that quickly, going to clubs and dating other guys means that she feels she has nothing to work on. The ball is already in her court. She knows what you want and how you feel. You're in the denial stage right now because you just glance right past the "not getting back together" and only see the two weeks. Write the letter for yourself but do not ever send it. Fair enough. I agree about the denial. She is quick to anger and I feel that the letter may prompt a change of heart/mind in the future. What would be the outcome of writing a letter?
ExpatInItaly Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 Fair enough. I agree about the denial. She is quick to anger and I feel that the letter may prompt a change of heart/mind in the future. What would be the outcome of writing a letter? Nothing, really. She told you to move on. A letter would probably only irritate her further. Let her go, OP. She is already detached from you and seeing others. You would be best to start your own detachment so you can heal and someday meet a girl who's into you the same way you are into them. Your ex isn't that girl anymore. 1
Downtown Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 CDuke, I agree with the excellent advice already given by all the respondents. I especially agree with Expat that you're describing an unstable exGF. And I agree with Sweetfish that you exhibit a remarkable degree of self awareness for a man dealing with "toooo much drama." I therefore will only add some information about BPD -- an issue raised by your exGF's pastor when he advised her to stay away from you. All her relationships have been rocky/destructive.... She was quick to anger and critical of people.CDuke, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., suicide threats, verbal abuse, controlling behavior, easily triggered temper tantrums, lots of drama, lack of impulse control, low self esteem, and emotional instability -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your exGF has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it. Had a lot of really good ups, and really bad lows; she always talked about how the lows could have been from other things.As Expat stated (post #2), "She sounds unstable." The two most common causes of emotional instability are a hormone change and drug abuse. Yet, because you mention no pregnancy and no drug problem, you apparently do not regard these two issues as a problem. I therefore note that the two remaining common causes of instability are BPD and bipolar disorder. Significantly, the behaviors you describe are much closer to the warning signs for BPD than to those for bipolar. If you're interested, I discuss the differences I've seen between the behavior of a BPDer (my exW) and a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) at 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences. BPDers swing back and forth between "really good ups, and really bad lows" -- as you say -- because they lack the ability to regulate their own emotions. Indeed, the key feature of BPD behavior is the inability to manage one's own emotions. Family has depression in all females (her 2 sisters and mom).If she is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits), she is at substantial risk for also developing a depression disorder. A recent large-scale study found that, for female adults having full-blown lifetime BPD, 36% also suffer from co-occurring MDD (Major Depressive Disorder) and 80% suffer from MDD or another mood disorder. I would walk away if she attacked me verbally and said she felt suicidal."Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats..." is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. (That trait also includes self harming behavior such as cutting.) Feels that her self-esteem and ego comes from others....If she is a BPDer, that is to be expected. A BPDer has such low self esteem and such an unstable sense of who she is that she has no strong self identity. A BPDer therefore is heavily reliant on other people -- particularly her partner -- for validating her and providing her with a self identity. This is why one of the nine defining traits for BPD is "Distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self." Asked my mom if [my Dad] had a mental disorder and was concerned I would have one.... She went to talk to a Pastor; he said don't get back with him no matter what, he has borderline personality disorder.As you know, nobody on the planet -- not even a psychologist -- can determine whether you exhibit full-blown BPD without meeting you and carefully evaluating you. Certainly, a pastor cannot accomplish that feat. It nonetheless is interesting that your exGF is so convinced that you have a mental disorder that she asked both her pastor and your mom about it. One possibility is that she is correct about your having BPD, as her pastor suggested. Another possibility is that SHE is the one having full-blown BPD and, as BPDers tend to do, she is projecting those BPD traits onto you when describing you to others (e.g., to her pastor). Because the projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, a BPDer typically will be convinced that the projection is true. A third possibility, of course, is that neither of you exhibits strong BPD traits. What is your opinion?My opinion is that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your exGF exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as suicide threats, lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums. Of course, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your exGF's issues. Although you can spot strong BPD symptoms, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe and persistent as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid taking her back and avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells or raises questions, I would be glad to join Expat, Sweetfish, and other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, CDuke.
Author CDuke93 Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 As you know, nobody on the planet -- not even a psychologist -- can determine whether you exhibit full-blown BPD without meeting you and carefully evaluating you. Certainly, a pastor cannot accomplish that feat. It nonetheless is interesting that your exGF is so convinced that you have a mental disorder that she asked both her pastor and your mom about it. One possibility is that she is correct about your having BPD, as her pastor suggested. Another possibility is that SHE is the one having full-blown BPD and, as BPDers tend to do, she is projecting those BPD traits onto you when describing you to others (e.g., to her pastor). Because the projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, a BPDer typically will be convinced that the projection is true. A third possibility, of course, is that neither of you exhibits strong BPD traits. I therefore suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells or raises questions, I would be glad to join Expat, Sweetfish, and other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, CDuke. Wow Downtown, Wow!! Thanks for all that input. Took me a couple reads to really soak it all in. I'm not a fan of armchair diagnosing, hard to be sure when you have spectrum disorders. There was alot of good! However when we encountered a rough edge (misinterpret what she said, I did something she didn't like), we'd spiral out of control. She's been in my prayers alot lately. While we were dating, she exhibited a strong Christian faith (pray, worship, volunteer, writing to God) however these actions to seek self-esteem/ego seem like she is slightly "lost". I think that is another part of my desire for future reconciliation; we'd both be able to lift each other up in our faith. It's hard though since I'm not sure if someone can work on the issues she identified (self-esteem, ego, hurting others, judgement, criticism, anger) without being single and only pursuing that. There is also a bit of confusion on how she can act so happy, cheerful and not even look back at our relationship. This is a common pattern with all her relationships though. I agree that the old relationship is done and you can't go back. Thankfully I was able to grow in my faith and work on the issues I identified. I still seem to hold some hope (not motivating my actions) that if we both work on ourselves and grow that what brought us together and our personalilities/life goals would help us foster a new relationship.
ExpatInItaly Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 OP, my ex-boyfriend is diagnosed BPD, though he refused any treatment. There are indeed many similarities between what you describe and my relationship with my ex. Faith is not going to be anywhere near enough to keep her stable, if she actually does suffer from a personality disorder. That pattern of hot-cold and push-pull characterizes BPD relationships and in my experience, there's not a darn thing you can do to improve it. People who are BPD don't feel things the same way you or I do; it's a much different scale and different emotional experience for them. That's why you can't really understand what she's thinking when she rages and then loves you, and then drops you. I couldn't either, when my ex did the same things. There is no "old relationship", as such. Those erratic ups and downs are part of who she is. The highs come with the lows. That is nature of the relationship. Love isn't enough to fix it. Understanding and patience and praying won't fix it either. Believe me, I speak from experience. You are going to feel okay again, one day. And you will probably ask yourself (as I did too) why you considered returning to the chaos. Whatever the reason behind her instability, it's not something you should be participating in or trying so hard to resuscitate. Respect the choice she made to end it, and work on regaining your peace of mind again. 1
Author CDuke93 Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 OP, my ex-boyfriend is diagnosed BPD, though he refused any treatment. There are indeed many similarities between what you describe and my relationship with my ex. Faith is not going to be anywhere near enough to keep her stable, if she actually does suffer from a personality disorder. That pattern of hot-cold and push-pull characterizes BPD relationships and in my experience, there's not a darn thing you can do to improve it. People who are BPD don't feel things the same way you or I do; it's a much different scale and different emotional experience for them. That's why you can't really understand what she's thinking when she rages and then loves you, and then drops you. I couldn't either, when my ex did the same things. There is no "old relationship", as such. Those erratic ups and downs are part of who she is. The highs come with the lows. That is nature of the relationship. Love isn't enough to fix it. Understanding and patience and praying won't fix it either. Believe me, I speak from experience. You are going to feel okay again, one day. And you will probably ask yourself (as I did too) why you considered returning to the chaos. Whatever the reason behind her instability, it's not something you should be participating in or trying so hard to resuscitate. Respect the choice she made to end it, and work on regaining your peace of mind again. Good perspective Expat. Do you feel that it could have been that my emotional baggage and her issues just didn't click? That there may be someone else out there better to deal with her issues? I'm stable now and feeling ok. I do struggle with just letting her go for any future opportunity. She is an incredible woman and if she recognizes and did therapy, I'd be there for her 100%. I really don't want to say "We will never have another relationship ever again", I feel that feelings, thoughts and perspectives change over time. Especially if this pattern repeats with all her future relationships.
ExpatInItaly Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 Good perspective Expat. Do you feel that it could have been that my emotional baggage and her issues just didn't click? That there may be someone else out there better to deal with her issues? I'm stable now and feeling ok. I do struggle with just letting her go for any future opportunity. She is an incredible woman and if she recognizes and did therapy, I'd be there for her 100%. I really don't want to say "We will never have another relationship ever again", I feel that feelings, thoughts and perspectives change over time. Especially if this pattern repeats with all her future relationships. Not really, no. The type of instability she displayed isn't about incompatibility. Your differences could have magnified the issues, but they didn't cause them. Thus, managing your differences wouldn't have solved the problems either. Don't hang on to the idea that she could be great if she had therapy. It's who she is here and now that matters, not a hypothetical version of her. I fell into that trap too, of thinking that if only my ex got help, everything would be okay. It so rarely works out that way. Also, even if she is BPD or suffers another mental health condition, it doesn't necessarily mean that she is absolved of responsibility for the break-up or that she is too impaired to see what's good for her. It's entirely possible she just doesn't want to be with you anymore, regardless of her emotional turmoil. She is still an adult who is capable of making decisions. It's still likely that she lost interest over time and truly doesn't feel you're a good fit anymore. All you can do is respect her decision to end the relationship and start accepting that it's over. Don't try to contact her anymore. It's quite clear she doesn't want that. She knows how to find out if you she wants to talk. 1
Author CDuke93 Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 Not really, no. Also, even if she is BPD or suffers another mental health condition, it doesn't necessarily mean that she is absolved of responsibility for the break-up or that she is too impaired to see what's good for her. It's entirely possible she just doesn't want to be with you anymore, regardless of her emotional turmoil. She is still an adult who is capable of making decisions. It's still likely that she lost interest over time and truly doesn't feel you're a good fit anymore. All you can do is respect her decision to end the relationship and start accepting that it's over. Don't try to contact her anymore. It's quite clear she doesn't want that. She knows how to find out if you she wants to talk. That is the hard truth, it is over right now and the message is clear. It could have been losing feelings or just too much for her to handled. It's tough since who I was at the end of the relationship is so much different from who I am now. I've been incredibly motivated to change for the better; feelings that the change would make a future relationship with her work flood me all the time. 1
ExpatInItaly Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 That is the hard truth, it is over right now and the message is clear. It could have been losing feelings or just too much for her to handled. It's tough since who I was at the end of the relationship is so much different from who I am now. I've been incredibly motivated to change for the better; feelings that the change would make a future relationship with her work flood me all the time. That's normal. Many experience the same feelings after a break-up. The only information we can live by is that we know to be true, right now. When someone ends a relationship, that means working towards accepting the fact that they don't presently wish to be a couple. You will need to be patient with yourself. Healing and detaching is a slow process and it's typical in the beginning to get stuck in the denial/bargaining stages of breaking up. We can't yet face the truth, so we try to rationalize and negotiate with exes to reconcile or at least not let go completely just yet. But all that does (usually) is irritate the ex and delay our recovery. 1
Author CDuke93 Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 That's normal. Many experience the same feelings after a break-up. The only information we can live by is that we know to be true, right now. When someone ends a relationship, that means working towards accepting the fact that they don't presently wish to be a couple. You will need to be patient with yourself. Healing and detaching is a slow process and it's typical in the beginning to get stuck in the denial/bargaining stages of breaking up. We can't yet face the truth, so we try to rationalize and negotiate with exes to reconcile or at least not let go completely just yet. But all that does (usually) is irritate the ex and delay our recovery. The facts we have now are that she wants nothing to do with this relationship (old one), she's terrified of getting into a relationship with me (due to last one), and that she was devestated by the two lies I told. You are right, I do need to detach and move forward. Could these feelings and perception change in the future? I realize I need to move forward, I'm just curious. Especially with seeing stories of ex's working it out, I'm curious on if it "could" happen here.
Sweetfish Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 The facts we have now are that she wants nothing to do with this relationship (old one), she's terrified of getting into a relationship with me (due to last one), and that she was devestated by the two lies I told. You are right, I do need to detach and move forward. Could these feelings and perception change in the future? I realize I need to move forward, I'm just curious. Especially with seeing stories of ex's working it out, I'm curious on if it "could" happen here. If she does have BPD or any similar traits associated with Cluster B and/or Cluster C personality disorders, the regulation of emotions and moods will take a toll on the relationship and the ability to manage ordinary relationship hurdles will be met with extreme difficulty There is no CURE for Cluster B personality disorders only CBT (Cognitive behavioral therapy) It only helps the person reduce the episodes or psychosis. So yes there is a possibility of reconcile...however you will be walking on eggshells and may drag a productive healthly ego (your self) into the toilet.
Author CDuke93 Posted March 12, 2017 Author Posted March 12, 2017 If she does have BPD or any similar traits associated with Cluster B and/or Cluster C personality disorders, the regulation of emotions and moods will take a toll on the relationship and the ability to manage ordinary relationship hurdles will be met with extreme difficulty So yes there is a possibility of reconcile...however you will be walking on eggshells and may drag a productive healthly ego (your self) into the toilet. You speak a lot of truth, there was this feeling of "walking on eggshells" during parts of the relationship, especially during stressful intense times. She would react significantly to me being stressed. I feel we both brought some issues; not going to pin it all on her. Her mom has a little ankle-biting yappy dog. It would stress me out and she in turn would get stressed out. I feel that while our personalilities worked really well together and life goals matched, we aren't in the right time of our lives for each other. She has to face that anger/criticism/judgement issue while I have to face my self-defeating beliefs, cognitive distortions and path to God. This is where my desire to have future hope rises from. As much as I wish we could get through it together, I feel she might have to do it alone, I'm not sure if her relationship hopping will help this, especially since there might not be a guy who can deal with these issues when they rise up (later on in the relationship).
Downtown Posted March 12, 2017 Posted March 12, 2017 Wow Downtown, Wow!! Thanks for all that input.I'm glad to hear you found the information useful, CDuke. I'm not a fan of armchair diagnosing.Neither am I. But there is a world of difference between diagnosing a disorder and simply spotting the symptoms (i.e., warning signs) for that disorder. You would have to be blind, deaf, and dumb to not spot symptoms such as suicide threats, verbal abuse, and temper tantrums. This is why hundreds of mental health centers post the list of BPD symptoms on their public websites. They know that the lay public is able to spot those warning signs. She is an incredible woman.... There was a lot of good!If she is a BPDer, "a lot of good" is to be expected. Some of my very favorite people are BPDers. A BPDer's problem is not being bad but, rather, being unstable. This instability and immaturity gives most BPDers a passion, warmth, purity of expression, and vulnerability that otherwise is seen only in young children. These qualities can make them very easy to fall in love with and very difficult to walk away from -- even after their abusive behavior begins. It therefore is not surprising that two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. There is also a bit of confusion on how she can act so happy, cheerful and not even look back at our relationship. This is a common pattern with all her relationships though.This is a common pattern for all BPDer relationships. It occurs because BPDers are too emotionally immature to tolerate being in touch with two strong feelings (e.g., love and hate) at the same time. Hence, like a young child, a BPDer "splits off" the conflicting feeling, i.e., puts it far out of reach of her conscious mind. When you trigger a BPDer's anger, for example, she cannot handle being so angry with the man she so dearly loves. Her unconscious mind therefore will split off her loving feelings. They are still there in her mind but they are far out of reach of her conscious mind. In this way, her life is greatly simplified because she only has to deal with one intense feeling at a time. If this behavior seems strange, remember that you will see it every day in young children. A child will adore Daddy when he is bringing out the toys -- but then, in an instant, will shift to hating Daddy when he takes one away. With both children and BPDers, it appears that they are able to turn their feelings (love or hatred) on and off as though they were flipping a light switch. If she recognizes and did therapy, I'd be there for her 100%.Given that you two are not married, I would strongly recommend that you NOT wait around, giving her 100% support while she is in therapy. Instead, you should immediately move on. If she is a high functioning BPDer, the chances are very slim -- I would guess about 1% -- that she would remain in therapy long enough to make a real lasting difference in her behavior. To be successful in therapy, a BPDer must have a high level of self awareness and sufficient ego strength to be willing to work hard for many years. It is rare for high functioning BPDers to have both of those attributes. Hence, it likely would be a waste of time for you to stand around for 3 or 4 years to see if she is making substantial progress. With my BPDer exW, for example, I paid for her weekly visits to six different psychologists -- treatment that went on for 15 years at enormous expense to me. Of course, I often saw evidence of enormous improvements in her behavior. Like the many addicted smokers who are always "quitting" every two months, a high functioning BPDer will be seen to dramatically improve periodically -- i.e., every 6 or 8 weeks in my exW's case. But I was only seeing another temporary upswing in her unending cycle of mood flips. After 15 years, I ultimately realized that therapy had not made one dent in her behavior. Not one dent. On the contrary, her behavior got worse -- to the point that she eventually had me thrown into jail on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. I therefore agree with Expat's sage advice: "Don't hang on to the idea that she could be great if she had therapy." There was this feeling of "walking on eggshells" during parts of the relationship.Sweetfish mentioned this eggshells feeling because he knows that abused partners -- particularly those in BPDer relationships -- get this feeling often. Indeed, this feeling is so well known that the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to those abused partners) is titled, Stop Walking on Eggshells.
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