Hopeful30 Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 My man has alcohol issues. He stopped drinking nearly entirely when we started dating because he saw how much it bothered me, but it made him angry, intolerable and aggressive in his behaviour (not abusive). He apologized for this behaviour, explaining that since he stopped drinking, these are his withdrawal symptoms. I forgave him, because I understand. The thing is, I know what addiction is and what it does to people. For someone like him, these urges will be forever present. We've had this discussion many times before, and he keeps repeating that if I truly loved him, I wouldn't leave him because of this weakness he has. I guess my question is, at what point do you say enough is enough? He is right in that you shouldn't just give up on a relationship because of hardships, but at the same time, all these hardships have been on his end. Other than my stubborness, my behaviours or beliefs haven't caused problems in this relationship. All of the issues are form his end, from his addiction to alcohol, to his anger issues, to the fact that he can't cope with stressful situations without a substance. There is improvement and progress, but is that enough a reason to stay? How do you know when to give up?
mikeylo Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 Alcoholics or any other addiction doesn't go away on its own. He needs to be in rehab. You can't do that for him. When is it enough ? You will know. 1
Author Hopeful30 Posted February 18, 2017 Author Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) Alcoholics or any other addiction doesn't go away on its own. He needs to be in rehab. You can't do that for him. When is it enough ? You will know. I can't do it for him, no, but I can be by his side while he is recovering. I have already found and booked a retreat for him, and he is more than willing to do it. I guess I'm not sure if I will want him even when he has found a middle ground with his demons. I can't see the full picture of who he is because he's plagued by psychological crap that needs to be cleaned out. Should I stick around to find out? He says yes if I love him, but I love me more, and I've gotten weaker since this relationship got exclusive and emotional. By weak I mean I'm not as confident, outgoing or social anymore. Edited February 18, 2017 by Hopeful30
mikeylo Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 Depends on how long you have been with him and how much emotionally attached you are to him.
Author Hopeful30 Posted February 18, 2017 Author Posted February 18, 2017 I'm not sure if I'm questioning this relationship because my fear of commitment is acting up (hence why I want to be single and happy again), or if this relationship is genuinely unhealthy. Even since we started dating, I'm not as adventurous and happy anymore, but I should be able to be confident INSIDE relationships as well as outside of them. So I guess the issue goes deeper than that. Am I struggling with being okay in a relationship that has lifetime potential? Am I using his weaknesses as an excuse even though I can see lots of improvement? Is this relationship making me feel worse about myself, or is it my own issues that are surfacing the more serious this relationship gets? That's why there has been questioning and confusion in all of my threads. I believe this is where it stems from. I can't quite tell the difference between my own subconscious lenses and the truth of the situation. We all know how our minds can whip up quite a story when they want to...
MidwestUSA Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 It's not just alcohol, is it? "Well the fight that prompted today's post is the following: We both agreed to lead healthier lifestyles, which for me meant stop smoking tobacco (I smoked very very little to begin with, but this was my only vice) and for him this meant no cigarettes, no alcohol, no marijuana and no other recreational drugs." It's one thing to spend ten years with someone, and help them through a problem. It's quite another to take the burden on as part of the initial package. It sounds like he has an addictive personality as well as poor coping mechanisms. What are you willing to put up with, knowing that you can't really change someone? I've been there, done it, and I recommend getting out now. 2
Author Hopeful30 Posted February 18, 2017 Author Posted February 18, 2017 What are you willing to put up with, knowing that you can't really change someone? I've been there, done it, and I recommend getting out now. I agree with you, but I have an experience that makes me think otherwise. My ex was a very patient man, and I always asked him why he tolerated my behaviours (stubborness, inability to open up, my ego at the time) and he always said "because I love you". This relationship literally changed who I am and the course of my entire life. It helped make me a better person, and I'm proud to say that I'm much better off, even though that relationship didn't last (which it could have, but I got in it for all the wrong reasons). So on the other hand, since we genuinely love each other, this love has the potential to stick out any hardships and helps both of us. You know what I mean? So it loops back to my original quesiton, how do you know when it's time to give up? There has been progress on his end, even though he didn't cope with it well, but it always gets worse before it gets better. I'm sorry I'm so indecisive! It's why I refer to this forum
Ronni_W Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) he keeps repeating that if I truly loved him, I wouldn't leave him because of this weakness he has. You are not leaving because of his weakness but because of his unwillingness to overcome his weakness. There is a huge difference. "If you truly loved me then you would / you would not ________," is said to manipulate and control. ...then you would become a mind-reader. ...then you would not become upset when I have sex with children. It just is a never-ending cycle; and, there are an infinite number of ways that people can make you feel guilty merely by starting a sentence with, "If you truly loved me then..." this love has the potential to stick out any hardships It's possible that your ex's 'patience' was covering up his own lack of assertiveness or inability to communicate his own feelings and needs, or his fear of conflict and unwillingness to have difficult conversations with the aim and goal of improving his experience of his own life. All of these types of behaviours only serve, in the long run, to delay the other person's self-awareness from where they can make a decision and choice to overcome their own unhealthy or dysfunctional behaviours, patterns and ways of being in the world and in relationships. (It's not, ultimately, kind, loving or helpful.) Love is meant to inspire growth and happiness, not as a band-aid or to 'stick out hardships' - that are emotionally, mentally and spiritually draining and depleting over time. Love also ought not be used to manipulate others or as an excuse to stay stuck in one's own - nor to cater to, excuse or tolerate someone else's - psychological blocks or 'comfort zone', including substance or process addictions. Hopeful30, it is time to leave when your own Soul tells you that it is time to leave. It is perfectly acceptable - and highly encouraged - to follow your own Inner Guidance and Direction, including in matters of Love. Edited February 18, 2017 by Ronni_W formatting 1
goldway90 Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 "If you really loved me, you would tolerate my addiction.." This statement is manipulative and red flag of an emotionally abusive relationship. 6
angel.eyes Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 You're just dating. You haven't been with him for years, and you aren't his spouse. This isn't a problem he developed after you were already in an established relationship. He came to a fresh relationship with his substance abuse problems! Early dating is about focusing on whether you're compatible. That includes shared values, the person not having deal breakers or red flags, the person meeting your needs within the relationship, etc. From the outset, he wasn't a good match. Your self-esteem and confidence are now shot from this. In addition, he's trying to turn you into a co-dependent. You shouldn't be the reason why he quits alcohol or his other drugs! That a recipe for failure! He has to want to do that for himself...not for his girlfriend, not in an attempt to keep his girlfriend, etc. As long as the motivating factor is external, he's bound to fail. He has to want to do this for himself--because it bothers him, not because it bothers you. You need to learn to walk away immediately when a guy is not a good potential partner. All the signs were there at the beginning but you decided to try anyway. The longer you stick around, the more destructive dating him is likely to become for you and the more painful because you'll become more emotionally invested over time. In addition, you'll begin to blame yourself should he relapse. You'll be afraid to leave as things get worse for you...because it will trigger a relapse. It's a lose-lose proposition to enter into a relationship with an active user who promises to quit for you. 3
ASG Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 I'm not sure if I'm questioning this relationship because my fear of commitment is acting up (hence why I want to be single and happy again), or if this relationship is genuinely unhealthy. Even since we started dating, I'm not as adventurous and happy anymore, but I should be able to be confident INSIDE relationships as well as outside of them. So I guess the issue goes deeper than that. Am I struggling with being okay in a relationship that has lifetime potential? Am I using his weaknesses as an excuse even though I can see lots of improvement? Is this relationship making me feel worse about myself, or is it my own issues that are surfacing the more serious this relationship gets? That's why there has been questioning and confusion in all of my threads. I believe this is where it stems from. I can't quite tell the difference between my own subconscious lenses and the truth of the situation. We all know how our minds can whip up quite a story when they want to... I've been on the other side. Where I was so adamant that I had to make a relationsjip work that I overlooked the bad stuff and the red flags that were there from the start and that told me, straight away, that we were not compatible. Early on in that relationship I questioned it and things that he would do that made me feel ****ty and unhappy. But I ended up dismissing them as a fear of commitment and being set in my ways after beibg single for so long. Well... guess what... it turned out we were actually completely incompatible. But it took me nearly 8 months to get there. You've posted so often about this relationship that maybe it'snot just in your head, but it could be that you are really not meant to be. Food for thought. 1
BaileyB Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 "If you really loved me, you would tolerate my addiction.." This statement is manipulative and red flag of an emotionally abusive relationship. Exactly. Alcohol abuse, anger issues, and this kind of manipulation are deal breakers for me. He never would have made it past the second date... 2
Author Hopeful30 Posted February 18, 2017 Author Posted February 18, 2017 Exactly. Alcohol abuse, anger issues, and this kind of manipulation are deal breakers for me. He never would have made it past the second date... Well in all fairness, he didn't actually say these words. I used this title as a paraphrase for him thinking you should stick around regardless if you truly love a person.
BaileyB Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 The issues with alcohol and anger should still be enough. The thing is, as you get older you realize that you may love someone, but you can't change them. You then have to decide what you want for your life. And, a good healthy relationship shouldn't leave you asking a lot of questions like this... Best wishes.
goldway90 Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 it made him angry, intolerable and aggressive in his behaviour (not abusive) It's an abusive behavior. He apologized for this behaviour, explaining that since he stopped drinking, these are his withdrawal symptoms He makes excuses for his bad abusive behavior knowing you're going to forgive him.It's part of the abuse cycle,sweetness and apologetic statements are needed to keep the abused person hooked. Even since we started dating, I'm not as adventurous and happy anymore You're not happy because this relationship isn't fulfilling and you always walking on egg shells but you're enabling his bad behavior thinking "Maybe he'll change one day". All of the issues are form his end, from his addiction to alcohol, to his anger issues, to the fact that he can't cope with stressful situations without a substance Substance abuse is another red flag of an emotionally abusive person. According to the book "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men." there's many types of abusers ( keep in mind an abuser can be more than one type) here's a summary to get an idea. - The Demand Man - feels highly entitled - Mr. Right - the ultimate authority - The Water Torturer - subtle and calm, possibly passive-aggressive - The Drill Sergeant - extremely controlling - Mr. Sensitive - soft spoken, gentle, supportive - when not abusing. Uses psychological jargon a lot. - The Player - good looking and sexy, roving eye, infidelity - Rambo - aggressive with everyone - The Victim - she abused me, feel sorry for me - The Terrorist - highly controlling and demanding, frequently threatens death without actions - The Mentally ill or Addicted Abuser - combined with any of the above can increase the severity of the abuse and increase his resistance to change.
Art_Critic Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 Hopeful.. it's admirable that you have started to love the person and not the Alcoholic..that is what you will need to do in order to separate two. You are codependent on him and his Addiction and as such you should go to some Alanon meetings and get some guidance from some other peers that are going thru a similar experience. You have to learn to take your life back and not enable the Addiction/Denial machine that exists inside him if you want to be of the best help to him. Enabling his behavior comes only at the sacrifice of your own well being... Don't let a guilt trip from an actively drinking Alcoholic affect you and change your outlook on things, We Alcoholics have a way with words getting what we want, whether it is getting our SO to pickup our Alcohol at the store or calling work to let them know we are sick and will not be at work today. Good Luck and if you decide to stick this out I would suggest some Alanon meetings to give you some guidance.
angel.eyes Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) Well in all fairness, he didn't actually say these words. I used this title as a paraphrase for him thinking you should stick around regardless if you truly love a person. The precise words he may have used are irrelevant. The fact is he conveyed this notion. Basically, he's trying to guilt you into staying in an unacceptable situation to "prove" your true love for him. There's nothing loving about emotionally-charged, unfair demands like this (these expectations are selfish and self-centered) and there's nothing loving about the way he mistreats you under the guise of dealing with his lack of alcohol or other drugs. By guilt-tripping you into tolerating the unacceptable, he's being emotionally manipulative. This is the first step in making you his co-dependent. Edited February 18, 2017 by angel.eyes 3
Redhead14 Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 My man has alcohol issues. He stopped drinking nearly entirely when we started dating because he saw how much it bothered me, but it made him angry, intolerable and aggressive in his behaviour (not abusive). He apologized for this behaviour, explaining that since he stopped drinking, these are his withdrawal symptoms. I forgave him, because I understand. The thing is, I know what addiction is and what it does to people. For someone like him, these urges will be forever present. We've had this discussion many times before, and he keeps repeating that if I truly loved him, I wouldn't leave him because of this weakness he has. I guess my question is, at what point do you say enough is enough? He is right in that you shouldn't just give up on a relationship because of hardships, but at the same time, all these hardships have been on his end. Other than my stubborness, my behaviours or beliefs haven't caused problems in this relationship. All of the issues are form his end, from his addiction to alcohol, to his anger issues, to the fact that he can't cope with stressful situations without a substance. There is improvement and progress, but is that enough a reason to stay? How do you know when to give up? This man's alcoholism is causing problems in many aspects of his/your life -- ED, work problems, emotional/mental, attitude, demeanor, etc. You don't "stay" with an alcoholic partner if you are not married. Even then, I might not feel obligated to stick it out with an alcoholic. Now is the time to move on and keep moving. Unless he gets real with himself and puts himself in a serious and intensive rehab center, he's not going to "get better". He cannot do it by himself and he cannot do it with someone who doesn't have the clinical skills to help him, like a partner. if I truly loved him, I wouldn't leave him because of this weakness he has. -- the is the alcohol-soaked reasoning, co-dependent, selfish thought process of an Alcoholic. That statement is manipulative as well. I know what addiction is and what it does to people. -- Partners of alcoholics suffer just as much or more than the alcoholic. Save yourself. Trust me you cannot help him and certainly wouldn't be of any help to him if you are struggling as well. You need to take care of yourself. While you are a caring, supportive, nurturing person, he does not need that. You are actually enabling his behavior and addiction by allowing him to "have" you. Unless he starts feeling/suffering loses and consequences, he will never be able to manage his alcoholism effectively. He needs to be allowed to hit rock bottom. Not have another "crutch". 1
amaysngrace Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 My ex use to say "don't give up on me" It was a horrible position to be in because it made me feel like the bad guy but I left him anyway after quite a few years. It wasn't that I didn't love him because I did, still do actually, but he loved alcohol and I love myself enough to know that I deserve more love than he could give. You can't expect an alcoholic to love you properly when they don't even love themselves enough to get help and be well. They just don't have it in them to give. At least that's been my experience. 2
OatsAndHall Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 I will not date a heavy drinker, period. I had some interest in a woman last year but called it off quickly when I realized how heavily she drank. To be honest, I don't feel much empathy towards addicts as it is their choice to continue with their self-destructive behavior and avoid help when it's affecting them and everyone around them. I understand that they are in a difficult spot but they need to be adults, listen to those around them and get it figured out. Mental illness and addiction are almost always diagnosed as concurrent medical issues and a person needs to deal with those issues before they can be in a healthy relationship. A female friend of mine has struggled with alcoholism and opiate addiction for a long time now. I used up three of my personal days this year to visit her when she ended up in the hospital (once again...) because she mixed alcohol and pain killers and overdosed. She has already had multiple stints in the psychiatric center and rehab for her issues but refuses to change her behavior for herself or those around her. So, I am done with her at this point. I cannot spend any more time, energy or money trying to be there for her when she won't be there for herself. 1
Imajerk17 Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 (edited) Hopeful30, I often get the sense (this and your other threads over the several years that you've been on here) that when it comes to boyfriends, you go for "projects". I mean, in another thread you described your boyfriend as "not the smartest guy", and in here, you reveal he has a problem w alcohol and quitting makes him "intolerable and aggressive", and somewhere else you even say that he isn't that good in bed. What is it that you even LIKE about him? Where is this "lifetime potential" that you speak of (post #6 in this thread)? Anyway, something you ought to look into in general. Edited February 18, 2017 by Imajerk17 1
elaine567 Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 Forget the fixer uppers, loads of work with little reward. My man has alcohol issues. He stopped drinking nearly entirely when we started dating because he saw how much it bothered me, but it made him angry, intolerable and aggressive in his behaviour (not abusive). He apologized for this behaviour, explaining that since he stopped drinking, these are his withdrawal symptoms. I forgave him, because I understand. I guess I'm not sure if I will want him even when he has found a middle ground with his demons. I can't see the full picture of who he is because he's plagued by psychological crap that needs to be cleaned out. Should I stick around to find out? OK so alcohol free you have a man that is angry, irritable and aggressive and he is "plagued by psychological crap" Is that really a man you want to stand by forever? He has issues upon issues and he is emotionally black-mailing you too "If you really loved me... you would always put up with my nonsense." YOU are already being seriously affected by being in this relationship, do you really imagine it will get much better? 1
Gr8fuln2020 Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 "if you really loved me, you would tolerate my addiction.." this statement is manipulative and red flag of an emotionally abusive relationship. absolutely.
Versacehottie Posted February 18, 2017 Posted February 18, 2017 Granted I don't have much experience with addicted people close to me in my life but I think if you take it down to it's very basic level: people who are in midst of addiction problems probably need to focus all their energy on themselves and should according to specialists. If you want to be most fair to him & yourself, that's probably the best to be alone. You two haven't been together long and from a romantic perspective, perhaps you should have issues with one of the top reasons to stay with a partner is to be his crutch. I don't know--maybe people should sort out their issues when they are so major and all encompassing before they involve another person, i.e. you. And if they become aware while in the relationship, especially a relatively new one, same thing. If I remember your threads, I think there are lots of things going on that make it not smart for you to waste time with him now. If he comes back later and has sorted himself out & you are still around and interested that's a different story. Good luck
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