what does 'being a man' look like?

[palmsand]

I have become convinced that part of my problem in getting dates comes down to this... not behaving in a way that is sexually attractive or 'masculine' enough. I have been given the "you're a nice guy but..." line and such, and I always end up as friends and nothing more.

 

I am a nice guy, probably too nice. If I can help someone out in a small way, I do. If someone just wants someone to listen, I listen. I'm just a human being like everyone else. Lately the women I meet(though not many) have been wonderful. As in intelligent, complex, etc. Could being a jerk make me more attractive?

 

Girl I met recently and spent nine hours with tonight was literally reading my mind on several occasions as we talked about pretty obscure subjects, but she has no romantic interest in me.

 

So there is a deep connection there, but just nothing romantic. Besides initiating and engaging in conversation, listening and thinking carefully about what they say, showing interest in what they think, and whatever situational humor comes up, what can I do to be 'masculine'? Do I need to punch out the first guy who looks at me funny? I'm just not an *******, and in my mind it's hard to separate being masculine from being a stuck-up jackass, though of course they are not mutually-exclusive.

 

Specifically what 'masculine' behavior would be warranted in a situation like this?

 

This probably comes down to my childhood. My father was emotionally absent, so I will be the first to admit that I may not have picked up the intricacies of being a strong, assertive, male figure.

[Shining One]

Stop wasting time and effort on women who have no romantic interest in you. Be nice... to the woman you're sleeping with. Spend time listening... to the woman you're sleeping with. There should be a revolving door of women you're meeting until you find one (or several) to date. There should not be 9-hour conversation sessions with a woman who doesn't want to get naked with you. All of this is regurgitated advice that I received, and it helped.

[palmsand]

We talked about things that we are both interested in, not sure what else there is to talk about?

 

I know the difference between the gentleman and the jackass, obviously going for the gentlemanly approach, but how is that not what I'm already doing? Being respectful, thoughtful, polite, etc.

 

This case may be odd because we met through friends and were basically 'hanging out', so there was no premise of a date to start with.

 

 

How do I know if they have a romantic interest before I talk to them? How do I achieve a romantic interest without talking to them? This seems like a chicken and egg problem. I am clueless.

[Shining One]

This case may be odd because we met through friends and were basically 'hanging out', so there was no premise of a date to start with.

A "man" would have ensured there was a premise of a date.

[palmsand]

Like being decisive in the date plans right? The only example I can think of.

 

I was kind of lumping romantic and sexual attraction together. I know escalating things like that is on my judgment and instinct, I just have rarely felt confident enough to do that in the past for whatever reason.

 

I almost feel like I need a sign or permission to make a move, and without that I would have no idea and probably do nothing.

 

I just realized that I am probably using conversation and issues as a distraction from the hard stuff.

[palmsand]

I'm not but didn't loose it fair and square. Like a 'dream come true', one day a ***** appeared in my life and threw herself at me, probably instilled a twisted perception of this stuff in my mind. I think I have been more unhappy after that because now I know what I am missing out on. But I felt good in that case. Like I had permission, I didn't have to play this stupid game for once. I just can't believe how much I have to learn.

 

 

I have felt down about this stuff for a long time. Not to the point where it affects my daily life or anything, but just wondering what is wrong that I have so much trouble while everyone else seems happy with their significant other. And I know feeling down is the opposite of what I should be, confident and optimistic. But it's hard to be confident and optimistic with a track record of predominantly failure. But again

Edited December 28, 2016 by palmsand

[palmsand]

My best bud has been trying to help me out with this, but not sure he is the best role-model. He has hooked up with plenty of girls but has only had toxic relationships and says things like "ask her to come back to your place and ****", so I have to take his advice with a grain of salt.

 

 

The other big thing is just finding people in the first place. I will be the first to admit that I am a nerd and don't have many interests in common with most people.

 

Seems like I either meet people who I have little in common with and struggle because of that, or I meet people like the girl I was with tonight who I have too much in common with and we just nerd out at the cost of romance. So I know I need to just meet more people and up the odds of finding the right balance.

 

 

As far as flirting, I think I at least got some practice with that tonight. Poking fun, maybe sexual euphemisms, etc. But I feel like I need to at least know the person at a certain level to pull that off and know where the line is before I cross it.

Edited December 28, 2016 by palmsand

[elaine567]

Girl I met recently and spent nine hours with tonight was literally reading my mind on several occasions as we talked about pretty obscure subjects, but she has no romantic interest in me.

 

How do you know that?

She agreed to hang out one on one with you, she stayed 9 hours chatting to you, but you did not make a move, so even if she was interested, she will probably have gone home thinking that you had no interest in her.

[JuneJulySeptember]

This might be a little abstract for you to handle but...

 

Whether you are Mr. Nice Guy and Mr. Pushover and get zero women or whether you are jerk and sleep with hundreds of women, at the end it will be all the same. You'll die with nothing.

 

So, the question becomes, which one makes you happier? Being yourself and being considerate and making the lives of others easier, or getting your knob hobbed by many women and 'getting what you want' in life?

 

Because if the latter were more important, then quite frankly I do think being a jerk gets more women. Though not necessarily better relationships.

 

And again, that's a choice for women too. They can choose to be cliche and date jerks and reject guys they outright call 'nice guys', or they can choose the opposite.

[NVO]

Ha, you sound very like me Palmsand. Read 'No more Mr. Nice Guy', it will put things in perspective about yourself. But don't get caught up in all the excercises, I believe there's no quick fix and you don't need to change who you are, just how you handle certain situations. But being aware of your traits is a good starting point.

 

The good news is we both have the ability to have a good conversation with women, whereas a lot guys can't even hold a conversation for 10 seconds. And just like me, you are making excuses for yourself when it comes to making a move. 'Is she interested?' 'What if she thinks I'm weird?' To answer your question about what is masculine: a real man doesn't care about that opinion. You want that girl, so you go after it. She's a big girl, so if she doesn't like you she will tell you.

 

Now in theory this is all very simple, but to put it in practice is a lot harder. I don't always get it right. But at least be aware of the excuses your mind comes up with when talking to a girl of when you are about to. What I do to avoid this situation where I'm not certain of the girls interest in me: setting up a date. When you are on a date you can at least be certain there is some kind of attraction. So no 'hanging out' or 'chilling'. Just called it a date from now on with every girl you have romantic interest in. Makes it so much easier for yourself. From that point on just follow one rule: touching and escalating.

 

I never did this before until one date it just happened. We walked back to the train and until that point it was a normal date like always, or like I would have had with any other girl: talking and laughing. But as we walked back I just slipped my arm around her shoulders. Smiled and kept talking. Just for a few seconds. After that I let go and we walked further down the road. Withouth really thinking about it I just grabbed her hand and we walked hand in hand until I got onto the train. When we were walking I couldn't believe it myself. Me, the nice guy, making such a bold move. When I was in the train she immediately texted me: Oh, you are so cute! Best date I've ever had when it comes to personal growth.

Edited December 28, 2016 by NVO

[Whitestar]

Palmsand...

 

You sound an awful a lot like me.. nice, nerdy, empathetic etc

Dont let anyone tell you have to adopt so-called 'alpha male' behavior patterns in order to win a woman's heart. There are many different kinds of women and while its true the majority do go for that alpha male crap, there are plenty that dont. Your challenge is to find a nice nerdy girl who will like you for who you are and they are often hard to find.

 

However...

 

We are animals at our most basic and there are hard-wired and social rules of courtship. In formal dancing is that men are supposed to lead and women supposed to follow otherwise the dance simply doesn't work. In conversations with women who you want to be romantic with rather than simply friends its up to you to steer the conversation in that direction by making it obvious you are interested in her as a woman. Honest and sincere compliments and genuine interest mixed with humorous sexual innuendo. Almost all women are attracted to a man who is slightly more dominant than them ( I stress slightly) and who is confident about expressing that. You might for instance talk about a particular movie or an art show for instance and you might say "OK we have to go to that... when are you free?" Its decisive confident but non jerky.

[phineas]

We talked about things that we are both interested in, not sure what else there is to talk about?

 

I know the difference between the gentleman and the jackass, obviously going for the gentlemanly approach, but how is that not what I'm already doing? Being respectful, thoughtful, polite, etc.

 

This case may be odd because we met through friends and were basically 'hanging out', so there was no premise of a date to start with.

 

 

How do I know if they have a romantic interest before I talk to them? How do I achieve a romantic interest without talking to them? This seems like a chicken and egg problem. I am clueless.

 

Hanging out where?

 

If she is alone with me, there is romantic premise.

 

Even when my women "friends" whom I've already slept with but will never date want me to hangout I will try to sleep with them.

 

They know this.

sometimes i succeed.

sometimes I don't.

we aren't dating so as long as i get it in there once in a while i'm cool but if they shut me down permanently they can go watch netflix with someone else.

 

I got better things to do.

 

9hrs? don't you have better things to do?

if I was in a bar, by 3hrs we would be in my car or hers making out or id of at least kissed her in the bar.

 

if at someone's house, we most likely would of had sex by then or at least be making out.

 

some women are faster than others so depending on circumstance i don't expect sex but i do expect some kind of romantic contact involving hands and mouths.

 

And if they weren't down for it?

like i said, i got better things to do.

Have paid my tab and said Good Night to women who were not showing me clear interest.

 

have left a woman's house when all she wanted to do was cuddle.

 

when they are at my house and don't want to....oh wait, no woman comes to my house alone unless she is prepared to have sex with me.

 

it isn't your looks.

It's your attitude and inability to make the move.

 

pro-tip, if a woman likes you she won't be insulted you tried to sleep with her on the first date and will see you again.

[elaine567]

But as we walked back I just slipped my arm around her shoulders. Smiled and kept talking. Just for a few seconds. After that I let go and we walked further down the road. Withouth really thinking about it I just grabbed her hand and we walked hand in hand until I got onto the train. When we were walking I couldn't believe it myself. Me, the nice guy, making such a bold move. When I was in the train she immediately texted me: Oh, you are so cute! Best date I've ever had when it comes to personal growth.

 

It doesn't take a lot of effort and if she wriggles free from your arm around her shoulder, or takes her hand back, then you have your answer, but if she smiles then you are golden.

She then knows exactly where you stand, and you do to.

NO need to be gross like your friend suggested or to grab her boobs and stick you tongue down her throat to show her you are a man, just simple non-threatening, non offensive decisive gestures that show her you are definitely interested in her as a romantic prospect.

A physical connection such as simple hand holding, timed correctly, can say a lot more than hours of talking.

[JennaDT]

I think a lot of it has to do with the energy you put out. My ex-boyfriend was exactly the way you describe yourself and the fact that I knew he was always there for me no matter what, made me feel very secure in that relationship. Unfortunately, the chemistry between us was not that great and I think that was mainly due to the fact that the energy he exuded was a bit too soft for me. But in the end we were together for about two years, and we didn't break up because of the lack of chemistry.

 

You shouldn't become a jerk who punches random guys in the face, but I think most women would be turned on by the fact that you would actually fight for them (if it were necessary of course, not that they would actually be waiting for it to happen). Subconsciously, I think women are still naturally drawn to men who would be able to physically protect them (even though we rationally know we're perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves). So maybe you could try to learn to become more confident and assertive? Definitely don't become a jerk who treats women like crap, because the women you'd really want to date, wouldn't put up with that either.

 

My current boyfriend is the exact opposite of my ex-boyfriend. He's also a nice guy, but he has a lot of trouble expressing his emotions (a rather typical alpha male, I guess). So that's something I'm missing from my previous relationship, but then again we do have great chemistry and we have a great time together. So I guess it's always a bit of a trade-off.

[IfonlyIknew]

I find it hard to believe a woman who spent 9 hours with you had no interest. I love my guy friends but I usually kick them to the door after a short time Lol. There is too much to do to sit around and talk unless I'm spending time with my boyfriend. Could it be possible she is tip toeing around the idea since it wasn't perceived as a date. How did she say she has no romantic interest? If she flat out said that then I have no idea. But if she left it open in some way and expects you to read into that to open the door, it's possible.

[AmandaDiane]

If there is no chemistry and some sexual tension, then you should look somewhere else, but as someone said, be nice! Don't be a jerk, just set yourself aside kindly.

 

Good luck out there!

[GravityMan]

I can easily see a situation where a woman enjoys having a conversation with a guy for many hours...and yet has zero romantic interest in him. Perhaps she's an intellectual, and/or maybe the subject matter is something she's deeply into. Generally speaking, I think women are a bit more social than men. I think if the OP's date had romantic interest in the OP...she would've given him some subtle cues about that early on (i.e. put the ball in his court), and hoped that he would pick up on those and make a move. It would've been evident in her tone of voice, body language, the way she phrases things, etc.

 

Perhaps the OP's date did give a few such cues and the OP missed them or misinterpreted them.

 

OP, I think part of your "problem" is that you just haven't dated a woman yet that you are strongly attracted to. Once you meet and date such a woman, there's a good chance that your behavior during the date will naturally include some degree of flirting and sexual innuendo. (Unless you're one of those types of guys that won't get out of your own way.) You won't WANT to talk about quantum physics or Dyson spheres with her for nine hours. Your "vibe" will naturally be more romantic. That's how people tend to be wired when they're around someone they have the hots for. Your delivery & execution may be awkward due to inexperience, but that's not a big deal. Your primal urges will yell at you to make a move, and hopefully with the right timing you'll do something like hold her hand...and then if she reacts favorably then gradually escalate.

[OatsAndHall]

When I date, I'm just myself. However, I do whatever I can to show confidence. I ask them out if I'm interested, I ask them what time/date is convenient for them but quickly set things up if they're indecisive. The first date is generally coffee/tea as a) I want to actually get to know them in a quiet environment and b) a meal can make the date uncomfortable for a number of reasons. I keep my sarcastic sense of humor in check but I'm still myself and look to get a laugh. I'm always polite and courteous but I am open and honest as well. For example, during one of my last dates, the woman busted out "50 Questions To Ask On A First Date" and some of the questions were kind of personal. I politely told her that I wasn't comfortable answering those questions as it was our first date. She was kind of put off by this and the conversation went sour for a bit. But I got it back on track. Another woman let me know that she could be a bit of a "yeller" when she was upset and I told her it was important for me to have calm, rational conversations. Again, she got quite but I changed the subject and moved on.

 

I guess the whole point of this diatribe is this: you need to enjoy dates and have fun. This means that you should just be yourself. You're a self-proclaimed "nerd" so run with it during dates. I compete in powerlifting and the Highland Games and I will poke fun at myself when/if these come up in conversation. I've told women that my hobbies include being a "Neanderthal in a kilt that throws rocks for fun": it's always good for a laugh. You can do the same with your hobbies and interests and there's nothing wrong with that. Also, understand that you're feeling out the woman just as much as she is.

[breakupthrowaway663]

You shouldn't become a jerk who punches random guys in the face, but I think most women would be turned on by the fact that you would actually fight for them (if it were necessary of course, not that they would actually be waiting for it to happen). Subconsciously, I think women are still naturally drawn to men who would be able to physically protect them (even though we rationally know we're perfectly capable of taking care of ourselves). So maybe you could try to learn to become more confident and assertive? Definitely don't become a jerk who treats women like crap, because the women you'd really want to date, wouldn't put up with that either.

 

It would be best if you explain to him what this means to a woman. How do you see and feel those two things?

[breakupthrowaway663]

First, don't buy into the Alpha and Beta BS. It's just a money-grab to prey on vulnerable males that has turned into a cultural personality pigeon-hole. We are people, not A and B.

 

To be more masculine, take a look at how you treat yourself more than anything. How do you draw your boundaries in life? What are your goals? What are your opinions, values, etc? Draw hard, strong conclusions on the answers to those questions and there is your masculinity.

 

Weak men have weak boundaries, are too agreeable, quick to sacrifice, easy to use, etc. Be your genuine self and don't falter. If you do this, more people may dislike you, because you are no longer vying for their approval. But on the flipside, others will tune into your authenticity and want to be around you.

 

The so-called "jerk" can grab some women's attention because he's not pretending to be something he's not. He's not looking for approval. He's an ass. That's him, take it or leave it. Be you, take it or leave it.

[preraph]

There used to be stronger masculine role models in the media. I remember someone saying to watch Clint Eastwood and John Wayne movies. It is hard to think of a modern reference that has anything as powerful as those old movie characters.

[GunslingerRoland]

I think a lot of people take "nice guy" or "nice girl" as too much of a compliment. As well as dwelling on it too much. Honestly I wouldn't say that about a friend, unless I couldn't think of anything else nice to say about them.

 

Even if you aren't an attractive guy, you want to hear adjectives like funny, charming, interesting, caring... about yourself. If you spend 9 hours with someone and that is the best way they can describe you, you've probably bored them to tears.

 

I wouldn't so much worry about the masculinity thing, as just trying to figure out the part of your personality that you can shine with, and putting more focus on it.

[preraph]

I just want to say that being overly nice and doing things for people who either aren't reciprocating or aren't looking for this level of involvement is really crossing a boundary and going where you weren't invited. Not saying you're doing it for evil reasons, but it makes people uncomfortable if they aren't as invested as you and you're doing things for them because they won't want to feel any obligation to respond in kind or even shower your with appreciation.

 

As a general rule, try to keep things balanced. Even if it's not your intent, someone giving too much seems like they're trying to buy or force more involvement, and that is NOT considerate. And most women will run from that, and even reluctant neighbors who'd rather not get to thick with neighbors. If you keep going down that road, the ones who will stay may only be the ones who are taking advantage of you, and that's how you attract bad people, by giving too much for no reason.

 

If you have a sincere drive to just do nice things for people, don't do it only to women you find attractive, where it's going to backfire, but volunteer doing chores for the elderly, who all need and appreciate help and probably really deserve it.

[palmsand]

Appreciate everyone's input.

 

I say she has no interest in me because my brother, who knows her much better than me, had been trying to set me up with her. He asked her just after we met if she could see dating me, to which she replied probably not. Kind of wish he hadn't done that as it could have short-circuited the who courtship thing.

 

But, we had just met when she said that, and have really bonded since then. Each time I have seen her(three times now), she just came over to my place and we talk, listen to music, ponder the big questions in life. So many things she says about deep topics like the meaning of happiness or why we exist are exactly what I am thinking.

 

Like we are on a profound level of understanding about each other. For example, she used the words "tumultuously" and "succinctly" in two sentences back-to-back, which for me is a real turn-on because I'm weird like that. Our interaction was a good mix though. One difference between us is that she is a huge Harry Potter fan and I am not. So it was fun playing dumb and kind of joking about that stuff as she explained it.

 

She did say "probably not", and since then we have really bonded, so I think there may still be a chance.

 

For awhile, we were laying on the bed together as she showed me pictures on her phone. I slowly moved in closer to her but she seemed want to maintain some personal space there. Little hints like that.

 

 

Many of you have said what I always thought was the case, that someone who I could really date and possibly marry would like me for who I am, not some phony act I put on.

 

That's why I like her so much. I can say what I think and feel without fear of her thinking it was weird or stupid.

 

Even knowing her just a couple of weeks, I would say we are approaching the best-friend level, just based on how we get along.

 

I think what it comes down to is that by the time I feel comfortable pushing the envelope romantically, I am already getting into the friend zone.

 

Also wanted to say that being nice to people is universal. I wouldn't try to use being nice to get with someone, I just do it all the time to everyone.

Edited December 28, 2016 by palmsand

[preraph]

If she was harboring romantic feelings for you, she would have taken advantage of laying in bed together and cuddled instead of "wanting space." I think if it hasn't happened by now, it's not going to. I mean, she could easily show you she wants more by touching you or making up excuses to see you more. She's not helpless.