How can someone so nice be so cruel ?

[consultmoi]

So I started a relationship a few months ago with a woman who was dating her ex. I know it makes me sound bad but we were friends while she was dating him and she used to tell me he frustrated her and wanted me

 

When I said ok let's give a relationship a try she dumped this guy immediately

 

Afew months later after the whirlwind everything settled down, but there was red flags I never noticed. She was always telling me men at work was asking her out for meals and that her ex was a great lover and he had a six pack and was fit etc .. Why even tell me these things if she was supposed to love me ?

 

So as 'normality' sets in our relationship I started to get frustrated with her being so clingy, she wanted to go everywhere with me and used to question me about every piece of communication I had with female friends etc ... She said she was depressed and used to stay in bed ALL day

 

Her children became an inconvenience and she would get family members to look after them on most occasions

 

Next thing I know I find out she was meeting up with her ex, messaging him and when I questioned this she said he was just a friend and he was happy with his gf

 

I obviously wasn't happy and checked her phone, she was in contact with him ALL the time,, when I questioned this she told me she wanted to be with him and dumped me immediately, now they are dating again

 

I feel cheated and used, frustrated and I have maintained no contact with her despite her emailing me 5 times since and saying she loves and cares for me and is sad and not happy it is over but it is for the best

 

I didn't reply but something tells me it isn't depression but something more such as a personality disorder like borderline or a narcissist

 

I just want to help her and I want her to be well or it could just be she didn't love me and loved the other guy

 

Question is once I am over the breakup do I continue to be her friend or just let it go ?

[LostOnes05]

No...No...No!!!

 

Do not "help" her. She has family for that clearly, since they are the ones taking care of her children. And her old new guy is in the picture. Don't play her game. She is full of crap. Dealt with a BPD woman before...it was ridiculous the things she'd pick to fight over, with a person that treated her well. This is beyond your pay grade if it is BPD...you can't help at all.

 

No friendship with her either. Would you stay friends with someone who was instrumental in getting you fired from your job? I doubt it. Same scenario applies. She schemed and got you fired from your role as bf, so why go back and volunteer? Let her keep it moving and don't fall for the crocodile tears or bad talking the other guy behind his back to keep you on the hook.

[ChickiePops]

she moved in with me almost immediately after ending it with this guy to be with me. She was in the middle of buying a house and as soon as that came through she wanted me to move in with her and give up my place which I did and now i'm in a position where I need somewhere to live while she is back with her ex, who apparently treats her like a princess. You are right she does seem to crave attention all the time and I suppose when things 'calmed' down her head seemed to turn. But why say she loved me, always has loved me and then kick me out like a dog ?

 

What do I do when/if she contacts me ? Ignore her ? I couldn't cope going through all of this again. I prefered it when we was friends and only saw her every few weeks

 

You got monkey branched. She appears to be the kind of person who cannot be without a relationship so she moves from man to man without any breathing room in between. She's not a mentally healthy person and none of her relationships will work until she fixes herself.

[Downtown]

Something tells me it isn't depression but something more such as a personality disorder like borderline or a narcissist.

Consult, the dysfunctional behaviors you mention -- if accurately described -- go well beyond the traits for depression. As to whether your Ex exhibits full-blown BPD or NPD, we cannot tell you that. None of us have met her and none of us are psychologists. The best we can do, then, is to point you to descriptions of typical warning signs (i.e., symptoms) for those two disorders (e.g., my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs).

 

Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur.

 

I therefore believe you can spot any strong NPD and BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about strong behaviors such as temper tantrums, icy withdrawal, always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and a strong feeling of entitlement.

 

Question is once I am over the breakup do I continue to be her friend or just let it go ?

I join all the other respondents in recommending that you let her go. If you decide she is exhibiting strong NPD traits, she likely is incapable of loving you or being a true friend. Instead, she will perceive you as an object having value as long as you continue to validate her false self image. If you decide she is exhibiting strong BPD traits, she likely is too unstable to trust you for any extended period. As you know, trust is the foundation on which all friendships must be built if they are to be long lasting.

 

Granted, BPDers (those with strong traits) can be fun and enjoyable -- even wonderfully caring -- as casual friends or business colleagues. Yet, once you've made the mistake of drawing close to a BPDer as her lover or close friend, you will find it impossible to avoid triggering her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment).

[consultmoi]

Hi Downtown. Everything you say about the traits of BDP is unbelievably accurate ! My ex's behaviour confirms 10 out of the 18 examples.

 

Definitely the black and white thinking, irrational, jealous behaviour, strong sense of entitlement, went from adoring me to devaluing me to disposing of me for her ex bf who is in his mid 40's and who still lives with his parents (maybe codependant, but I am unable to judge)

 

She used to create drama and blamed me for things without ever remembering what they actually were about, very low self-esteem,

 

Fear of abandonment is definitely one because once she drove all the way from London to our home and back to london to work the next morning (an 8 hour round trip drive) while calling and asking family members to keep me there until she got there as I threatened to leave her

 

Always played the victim and used to slate ex partners ... need I go on ?

 

So thank you for directing me to a safe place where I no longer blame myself or feel like I was going insane

 

I shall not maintain contact if she does contact me after being bored with her current bf as I need to protect myself and hope that one day she will get the help she needs and becomes happy herself

[consultmoi]

*Apologies I meant to say Maintain NO CONTACT :-)

[Downtown]

So thank you for directing me to a safe place where I no longer blame myself or feel like I was going insane.

Consult, if you have been dating a BPDer for the past year -- as you now suspect -- "insane" is exactly how you should have been feeling. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

I shall maintain no contact if she does contact me after being bored with her current bf as I need to protect myself.

Sounds like a good plan to me! I'm glad to hear you found the information helpful. Take care, Consult.

[consultmoi]

It has been over 3 weeks since I initiated NC and it has been 5 weeks since my ex replaced me with her previous ex and asked me to leave our home.

 

Over the past couple of days I have received a couple of emails asking me to listen to a certain song called Falling Slowly from the movie "Once" as I would like the words and piano ? and she has sent me a poem she wrote about 'happiness' and she says that she hopes I am ok and thinks of me often

 

Why is she writing emails to me ? She made a choice and chose her ex over me, I am sure he wouldn't like to know she is sending these emails to me

 

BTW She originally dumped him to be with me

 

Are these simply breadcrumbs as she can't let go even though she feels she made the right choice ?

 

Please help me make sense of all this. I intend to maintain NC

[PegNosePete]

Because she wants to feel better about herself.

 

If you're not hurt too bad, if you still talk to her, if you can be "friends", if you're OK after all... then maybe what she did wasn't so bad.

 

She certainly does feel she made the right choice otherwise she would say she wants you back.

[Toodaloo]

She just wants your attention because that is what attention seekers want... attention.

 

She doesn't want you but equally wants to keep you on ice as a bit of fun and games to play around with your emotions when she is bored or fed up.

 

Do not respond and eventually it will stop.

[Downtown]

Why is she writing emails to me? She made a choice and chose her ex over me.... She originally dumped him to be with me.

Consult, I agree with Toodaloo that, if your Ex craves attention, that desire alone may explain her efforts to reestablish contact with you. I also agree with Pete that she may be doing it to reduce her feelings of guilt. Moreover, if she is a BPDer as you suspect, there are several other reasons why she would want to contact you.

 

First, when an emotionally unstable person "makes a choice," it is likely she will make a different choice a few weeks or a few months later. That's what unstable do. They change their minds. This is why BPDer relationships are notorious for going through several complete breakup/makeup cycles before eventually ending for good. Indeed, a BPDfamily survey of over 430 such relationships found that a fourth of them went through 10 or more breakup/makeup cycles before ending permanently.

 

Second, because a BPDer has a fragile and fragmented self image, she doesn't even have a "self" to keep her company when she lives by herself. BPDers have a strong need to be around a partner who can supply her with the missing self identity. BPDers therefore HATE to be alone. The result, of course, is that a BPDer has a powerful incentive to keep someone around as the "backup plan" in case the current relationship starts to fail. And because a BPDer is incapable of trusting her partner, she lives in nearly constant fear that the R/S will fail when he discovers how empty she is on the inside.

 

Third, because a BPDer has a great fear of abandonment, it is common for a BPDer to triangulate by playing one partner off the other. This means that, for one period, she will split one partner white and adore him while speaking badly about the Ex. Then, during a subsequent period, she will flip the arrangement -- i.e., she will split the Ex white and perceive you to be all black. By playing one man off against the other, she is trying to increase her perceived value (as the prize to be won) and, hence, reduce the likelihood of abandonment. My BPDer exW, for example, even triangulated me against my step kids (her own children) because she felt threatened by my closeness to them.

[fromheart]

You're trying to find a logical conclusion to someones instability, when the only logical conclusion is that they are unstable and unfit for a relationship.

 

Being someone like that is painful, debilitating and messes up your quality of life. The woman is a walking, loaded gun and until she sorts herself out will remain so.

 

Keep moving on, look after yourself and avoid being intimate with unstable people as best you can.

[consultmoi]

Thanks fromheart [You're trying to find a logical conclusion to someones instability, when the only logical conclusion is that they are unstable and unfit for a relationship] I totally agree with this comment but sometimes being so close to someone who is unstable the abnormal becomes the normal so I never really got to see it, which is why I appreciate your comments and views

 

To the awesome Downtown, thank you also for your comments [First, when an emotionally unstable person "makes a choice," it is likely she will make a different choice a few weeks or a few months later. That's what unstable do. They change their minds]

She changed her mind twice in the space of days when I gave her a choice to make

 

re: [she doesn't even have a "self" to keep her company when she lives by herself.]

She has only ever lived alone for 6 months since being an adult

 

re: [because a BPDer has a great fear of abandonment, it is common for a BPDer to triangulate by playing one partner off the other]

Her past is littered with examples of triangulation

 

I don't know if it is me but why ask me to see the lyrics of a particular song ? What message is she trying to send ? and why not simply come out and say what she wants to say ? If anything. I have put the lyrics below if you have any idea ?

 

I don't know you

But I want you

All the more for that

Words fall through me

And always fool me

And I can't react

And games that never amount

To more than they're meant

Will play themselves out

 

Take this sinking boat and point it home

We've still got time

Raise your hopeful voice you have a choice

You'll make it now

 

Falling slowly, eyes that know me

And I can't go back

Moods that take me and erase me

And I'm painted black

You have suffered enough

And warred with yourself

It's time that you won

 

Take this sinking boat and point it home

We've still got time

Raise your hopeful voice you have a choice

You'll make it now

 

And in her second email she sent me a poem she wrote

 

My happiness poem by X;

 

Happiness is sometimes not knowing the whole story but making your own;

Friends we make, the people we meet;

Bright, beautiful colours we see, all our senses alive;

The feel of touch, arms of a hug with affection is all we need;

Good health, family love and being loved for who you are....xxx

 

I didn't reply to either message and I am sure I will get more

 

Thank you to anyone who can help me understand even alittle better because I am not convinced she is sending me emails out of guilt as I do not think she has any because she blames me for the breakup

[dangerous]

She's messing with you, WTH! She dumped you and chose another guy, what gives her the right to send you sentimental messages? Can you block her emails so you don't have to see her rubbish?

[dangerous]

Consult. Your comment about being 4 hours from London, made me think. I am in the Midlands. If you are anywhere near me, we should meet for a beer, and swap stories of living with a BPD GF!

[consultmoi]

Hi Dangerous, You are so right. She has no right to send me sentimental and romantic messages because A: She dumped me for another man and B: She now has someone else. I'm not sure loyalty forms part of her vocabulary unfortunately

 

And I live in Manchester otherwise I would love to swap stories :-)

[Toodaloo]

She is just messing with you! Its that simple. She just wants your attention to make herself feel better. Keep ignoring. The whole push pull thing is just pathetic really but obviously it has worked in the past so she is doing it again.

 

Good to see another fellow Brit about the place!

[consultmoi]

Thanks Toodaloo It's always good to chat to a fellow brit :-)

 

@Downtown: Do you have any insights or thoughts on my comments below ?

 

Thanks again for this forums advice and guidance I sincerely appreciate it

[Toodaloo]

Thanks Toodaloo It's always good to chat to a fellow brit :-)

 

@Downtown: Do you have any insights or thoughts on my comments below ?

 

Thanks again for this forums advice and guidance I sincerely appreciate it

 

CM this one is going to mess with your head because that is what she does.

 

I know Downtown will probably be able to explain in lengthy detail but what it boils down to is that she is screwing with you to get attention and gain some form of validation for herself. It has nothing to do with you or her wanting you back. Its just her getting her ego stroked and probably using you to make the new guy stay on his toes as well.

 

The best thing you can do is block, block, ignore and block. As soon as you are not reading this crap from her you will no longer be reminded or thinking about her. You need to get her out of your head and if that means ripping her out of your life and being ruthless then that is what you must do.

[consultmoi]

I have found an excellent article that describes my ex perfectly and I didn't realise that there are different types of BDP's but my exGf is definitely a Borderline Waif as described here BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.

 

And she is described as a Wolf in Sheep's clothing. This does give me an insight and does make me feel better ... Despite it still feeling painful but my heart will catch up in time

[Been]

She's an attention whore. And your playing into it by letting her contact you.

I once dated a woman who dumped me for her ex. And she was mean about it.

So days latter she starts sending me texts how she lays in bed crying about me but she knows it's for the best. What she didn't know is I knew from a friend that she had already moved her ex in with her. So I just blocked her.

She's never going to leave you alone if she knows she can get a response from you. You really need to block her. And anything she might say take with a grain of salt.

[Downtown]

I have found an excellent article that describes my ex perfectly and I didn't realize that there are different types of BDP's but my exGf is definitely a Borderline Waif as described here BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES.

Consult, perhaps so. The vast majority of BPDers turn their anger outward into a display of drama and emotionalism. Indeed, the key defining trait for BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions. This is why most BPDers show their anger outwardly. That is, they are "talkers" and thus act out strongly with lots of verbal abuse when their fears are triggered.

 

However, a small share of BPDers -- I would guess 5% to 10% -- show the outward rages only a small part of the time. Most of the time, when you trigger their two fears, they turn their anger inward upon themselves. Not surprisingly, these BPDers are called "quiet borderlines" or "waif borderlines."

 

Significantly, their being "quiet" much of the time does not mean their partners escape punishment. These BPDers typically punish their partners with passive-aggressive snide remarks, icy silence, cold withdrawal, and presenting themselves as helpless victims. But the anger may occasionally be expressed outward in the form of rage or a temper tantrum.

 

Because these quiet BPDers constitute only a small share of the BPDer group, little has been written about their behavior. It therefore is difficult to find online articles about them that are written by professionals. Consequently, I have been citing the same two online articles for many years.

 

One of my cites is the blog article you mention above by Shari Schreiber. She describes these quiet BPDers as appearing fragile, needful and victimized by their relationships and life circumstances. They therefore project "helplessness" as a way of controlling you. When they are angry with you, they also tend to withdraw and give you the silent treatment instead of throwing a raging temper tantrum.

 

I started citing Schreiber's article back in a 2010 post. I also cite a blog article she wrote about excessive caregivers like you and me. Other than those two articles, I generally avoid referring anyone to Schreiber's numerous blog articles on BPD. One problem with her discussions is that she conflates BPDers, narcissists, and sociopaths into a single group, failing to distinguish among them. Hence, when she is claiming to describe BPDer behavior, she oftentimes is describing narcissistic and sociopathic behavior and mistakenly attributing it to BPDers.

 

Another problem is that the professionals at BPDfamily.com had a serious falling out with her because she had claimed to be a therapist but was not licensed (in California) to be a therapist. It seems that she did all the coursework and got a masters degree but never completed the exam required for licensing.

 

The second reference I have been citing since 2010 is A.J. Mahari's blog article, The Quiet Acting-In Borderline. Whereas Schreiber emphasizes the helplessness and poor-little-me aspects of their behavior, Mahari emphasizes the way that many quiet BPDers use the silent treatment and icy withdrawal to punish their partners.

[consultmoi]

@Downtown. I found your comment "the key defining trait for BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions" Interesting as my exGf was doing Dialectical Behavioural Therapy each week where one of the modules is about Emotional Regulation. She said this was due to her depression whereas I suspect BPD

 

Also she punished me by trying to shame me to her friends and always playing the victim. She also portrayed lots of helplessness and came across constantly as fragile, needful and victimized by relationships (she was married for 20 years so I don't know if this is normal for a BPDer) and life circumstances (Her Mum dies of cancer 12 years ago which always affected her, she said this was the root of her depression) (She was admitted 3 times to the priory a psychiatric hospital)

 

Her ex new BF who she left to be with me and then back to him with no empathy to either of us was more of a caregiver than I was and I thought I offered her everything

 

I'd be interested to understand your thoughts on why she is staying in touch via email citing poems and song lyrics indicating "it's not too late" and "I have a voice" but without actually saying anything direct

 

I have maintained NC and still will in order to heal and recover, in the meantime I shall see if there is any further information on Borderline Waifs which I suspect I have been a victim of

Edited November 11, 2016 by consultmoi
Added scope

[Downtown]

@Downtown.... I'd be interested to understand your thoughts on why she is staying in touch via email citing poems and song lyrics....

Consult, to the best of my ability, I addressed that in post #36 where I responded to your question, "Why is she writing emails to me?"

[consultmoi]

@Downtown. Ok and Thank you