Moral high ground in an A?

[DKT3]

But can you trust your own mind if you are deep in an affair, surely you would see what you want to believe?

 

"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's pre-existing beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities."

 

This is a concept that people in affairs can't grasp. They have so convinced themselves of the convenient truth that takes away culpability. They suppress anything on the contrary and speak in absolutes....we never had passion, my spouse never understood me. Now while those things are possible they are not probable. It's simply how they cope with their poor behavior.

[carhill]

Given the way most WS misrepresent their BS in order to justify the affair, how does an AP decide if the WS has a toxic marriage?

I introduced them and they could decide for themselves.

 

Almost all BS are made out to be neglectful, selfish and emotionally abusive...

I recall specific incidents, like one would vent to a friend about, but again everything was easily and independently verifiable so if I was exaggerating, that was on me and easily sussed out.

 

This goes back to the equality thing. All are equal. Yeah, sometimes we do hurtful things to people and they do hurtful things to us. That's life. It ain't fair. It's war, hopefully with a bit of peace mixed in. Then we die, hopefully not before our time.

[Mr. Lucky]

I introduced them and they could decide for themselves.

 

Introduced them, as in "Mrs. Carhill, I'd like you to meet the woman I'm having an affair with?"

 

If so, I give you credit for a novel approach ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[carhill]

Sure, yup, and we all went out to dinner together, including her BF. ExW knew about her from before we were married. No deception. I'm a pretty in your face guy. I think I shared that content, whoa, back in 2008 if you want to look. It was going on back then.

 

Again, no moral high ground. The lady involved was a serial MW, her BF was married when they got together, exW moved her BF in as soon as we split up, on and on. Nothing unusual for our demographic. Men are brutal in their competition for women. It's war. I don't see much high ground in war. It is what it is. Hence, equals. No one better or worse than anyone else.

[cocorico]

But can you trust your own mind if you are deep in an affair, surely you would see what you want to believe?

 

Once you're "deep in an A", you're probably beyond caring if the M is toxic or not. I was referring to the stage when you're doing your research and deciding whether or not to get involved in the first place.

[seren]

For me, I think that sometimes, nearly all the time, good people can do bad things, maybe not to themselves, but to others, either intentionally or not. It doesn't make them bad people per se, but life, love, like, lust, the pull of the moon, the universe whatever, gives the person the 'permission' to do these things. However anyone justifies what they do, I think, it comes from a place where a person sees their actions as the right thing. It depends on what is valued. I think morality, either the high or low ground, depends on where a person is standing and whether they value that which they are complicit in either upholding or enabling to bring crashing to the floor.

 

Not all WS, OM, OW or BS are bad people, but, in my opinion, all affairs are bad things simply because they undoubtedly involve deceit, destroy trust, can break hearts, families but always one or more will be hurt, always, because of them. When it comes down to it, all that hurt is easily prevented by either the WS leaving or the OW, OM waiting before one has ended before the other begins. It really is that easy, leaving is hard, the aftermath is hard and often messy, but not as damaging as breaking trust, hearts or lies.

 

I value integrity and I value honesty, even if it hurts, even if it is the very last thing I want to hear, or, if my honesty and integrity, even at the expense of myself and my own happiness. I value this because it is how I was taught to live my life and I have always tried to be that person. It isn't easy, it has caused no end of shall I? should I? questions, but if it knowingly hurts another then I know it will ultimately cause me pain and being out of sorts with the person I tell myself I am, that the easiest yet hardest thing has been to be honest. That is my benchmark, my line in the sand and mine alone. I own my own values, morality and what I value in me, I couldn't speak for anyone else. It is their boat to row.

 

My H was and is a good, honest man, the OW is a good, honest woman, both in a bad place when they met, both driven by their own needs and wants when the A took place. It doesn't mean they are inherently bad or lack integrity, but it means, for them both, that they made bad decisions, at that time. I have it from both that they regret the A as well as regretting the hurt caused to those they care about, but at that time, they compartmentalised to hell and back, either intentionally or not, to justify their actions to themselves. My H still struggles to reconcile his own value base at that time.

 

No matter what the state of a marriage, no matter what people tell themselves, A's hurt and are destructive. No one deserves the hurt and pain an A causes, not only to the marriage or family, but to the mental and emotional wellbeing of the person at the brunt of the infidelity. If anyone can justify that, well they have a different set of values to my own, does that give the moral high ground? well in my world I wouldn't value those actions in my understanding of integrity, values or morality so it would have to, on a scale of 1-10, (10 being the moral high ground), be at the bottom. But that is my value base sliding scale, another person might not value fidelity, but they are always aware that A's hurt, so if they feel no remorse for the hurt of others, or think fidelity isn't such a big deal then of course they wouldn't see their actions as not immoral, but the role of an enabler is, in my own sliding scale, not desirable for me.

 

When it comes down to it, we all need to look in the mirror at the end of the day and ask ourselves have we been the best we can be, as long as we can tell ourselves that we have or at least reconcile ourselves that what we did was right, if only for us, then we sleep at night. My Dad used to tell me, when you get up in the morning you look in the mirror and say, today I will be the best I can be and at the end of the day you ask have I been that person and if not why not and the next day try to be better. Sounds like I was brainwashed :-) I am such an assertive, confident person IRL, the A brought me to my knees, it sapped my self esteem and that isn't something I would wish on anyone. Good people do bad things, doesn't make them bad people.

Edited October 15, 2016 by seren

[PrettyEmily77]

Short of a SAP being actively lied to by being told their MAPs were fully single /divorced (separated isn't single so doesn't count as a lie in my view), it's difficult to see how anyone can have the moral high ground in an affair situation.

 

At best it's a very bad judgement call, at worst it's a despicably selfish act laced with betrayal and deceit, depending on the circumstances, length and investment in the affair - either way, it's a choice that is perfectly avoidable.

[2.50 a gallon]

I was a SOM, that is separated, with no chance of me ever taking her back.

I ended up having multiple sexual encounters with several married women. In almost every case, the husband got what he deserved. In one way or another I had met their husbands, so I was not being fed a story.

[Birdies]

For me, I think that sometimes, nearly all the time, good people can do bad things, maybe not to themselves, but to others, either intentionally or not. It doesn't make them bad people per se, but life, love, like, lust, the pull of the moon, the universe whatever, gives the person the 'permission' to do these things. However anyone justifies what they do, I think, it comes from a place where a person sees their actions as the right thing. It depends on what is valued. I think morality, either the high or low ground, depends on where a person is standing and whether they value that which they are complicit in either upholding or enabling to bring crashing to the floor.

 

Not all WS, OM, OW or BS are bad people, but, in my opinion, all affairs are bad things simply because they undoubtedly involve deceit, destroy trust, can break hearts, families but always one or more will be hurt, always, because of them. When it comes down to it, all that hurt is easily prevented by either the WS leaving or the OW, OM waiting before one has ended before the other begins. It really is that easy, leaving is hard, the aftermath is hard and often messy, but not as damaging as breaking trust, hearts or lies.

 

I value integrity and I value honesty, even if it hurts, even if it is the very last thing I want to hear, or, if my honesty and integrity, even at the expense of myself and my own happiness. I value this because it is how I was taught to live my life and I have always tried to be that person. It isn't easy, it has caused no end of shall I? should I? questions, but if it knowingly hurts another then I know it will ultimately cause me pain and being out of sorts with the person I tell myself I am, that the easiest yet hardest thing has been to be honest. That is my benchmark, my line in the sand and mine alone. I own my own values, morality and what I value in me, I couldn't speak for anyone else. It is their boat to row.

 

My H was and is a good, honest man, the OW is a good, honest woman, both in a bad place when they met, both driven by their own needs and wants when the A took place. It doesn't mean they are inherently bad or lack integrity, but it means, for them both, that they made bad decisions, at that time. I have it from both that they regret the A as well as regretting the hurt caused to those they care about, but at that time, they compartmentalised to hell and back, either intentionally or not, to justify their actions to themselves. My H still struggles to reconcile his own value base at that time.

 

No matter what the state of a marriage, no matter what people tell themselves, A's hurt and are destructive. No one deserves the hurt and pain an A causes, not only to the marriage or family, but to the mental and emotional wellbeing of the person at the brunt of the infidelity. If anyone can justify that, well they have a different set of values to my own, does that give the moral high ground? well in my world I wouldn't value those actions in my understanding of integrity, values or morality so it would have to, on a scale of 1-10, (10 being the moral high ground), be at the bottom. But that is my value base sliding scale, another person might not value fidelity, but they are always aware that A's hurt, so if they feel no remorse for the hurt of others, or think fidelity isn't such a big deal then of course they wouldn't see their actions as not immoral, but the role of an enabler is, in my own sliding scale, not desirable for me.

 

When it comes down to it, we all need to look in the mirror at the end of the day and ask ourselves have we been the best we can be, as long as we can tell ourselves that we have or at least reconcile ourselves that what we did was right, if only for us, then we sleep at night. My Dad used to tell me, when you get up in the morning you look in the mirror and say, today I will be the best I can be and at the end of the day you ask have I been that person and if not why not and the next day try to be better. Sounds like I was brainwashed :-) I am such an assertive, confident person IRL, the A brought me to my knees, it sapped my self esteem and that isn't something I would wish on anyone. Good people do bad things, doesn't make them bad people.

 

Wow this was wonderful to read. You sound just like my BH. Even though we decided to D, I am grateful every day for his maturity, graciousness, and forgiveness. I hope your H knows how lucky he is and makes it known to you.

[wmacbride]

From what I can tell, most people who get into an affair have some sort of issue, and it becomes especially evident when they blame everyone else for their actions. The issue doesn't have to be anything major, it can be something as simple as having a poor sense of boundaries, entitlement, self-centredness, etc., to something far more serious.

 

Some have been through some really traumatic experience sin their lives,and while I feel bad for them, what gives them the right to visit that on someone else's head, especially when they don't know them and said person(s) have done nothing to hurt them? Why should a stranger be forced to pay the price for your hard knocks? ( general "your", not specific to any one person)

 

Those goes well beyond the nebulous concept of who's responsibility it might be to protect a marriage. It's more about hurting others. I don't see who either party in an A has any moral high ground to stand on.

 

I once heard someone make a comment that went along the lines of "what gives you the right to put your psychological skeletons in my closet?". That applies to affairs.

 

In an odd way ( and I know this will be really disliked by many) , when my husband faced, I was more ready to forgive. Not because he was on a higher moral ground, but because when I married him, it was for good times and bad, and it was one of the bad times. With his ex-ow, I made no covenant, beyond upholding the social convention of treating others kindly. She broke that covenant over and over, long after ( years) the affair had ended. She has some psychological issues, and she felt fine throwing those skeletons into my closet.

Edited October 15, 2016 by wmacbride

[Whoknew30]

I never held any animosity towards SOW...I felt her & my SOM were victims of my husband & I. They fell in love with us no different than we did for each other & I felt we both sucked them into our problems & then spit them out..I felt bad to be honest.

[NuevoYorko]

There really is no high moral ground - but the lowest moral ground is when the married affair haver OR the affair partner disparage the betrayed. Regardless of their shortcomings, they are an unwilling victim of the affair.