Moral high ground in an A?

[cocorico]

Something on another thread got me thinking...

 

As a single AP, do / did you feel "better" than your MAP, since you aren't / weren't "cheating" on a spouse?

 

If so, if you do / did land up in a FTR (or M) with them, how do you reconcile this feeling that you are / were better than them? How do / did they feel about this lack of respect from you?

 

If you are / were a BS, did / do you feel the SAP is better, worse or the same as your WS? Why?

 

If you are / were a WS, do you feel your SAP is better, worse or the same as you? Why?

 

If you are a MOW or MOM, how would you feel if you D and your AP did not? Would you feel better, the same or worse than them? And if they D and you didn't, would you feel worse, the same, or better than them? Why?

 

 

I was a single OW. During the A (and since) I did not feel "better" than my AP, since I understood how and why he came to be in the A. If things were different - say, his M wasn't toxic, or his XW wasn't abusive - I may have felt differently (though it's unlikely he'd have been in an A then). I would not have M a man I did not, or could not, respect, so I'm interested to read that some AP can speak so dissingly of their fMAP but then go on to M them, as if the MAP has somehow been magically transformed by the power of their magical penis or vagina. Just as I struggle to understand how fBS who clearly feel (or felt) revulsion for their WS can claim to be fully reconciled. Those BS who are in denial, projecting all the evil onto the OW / OM in order to reconcile are at least easier to understand, in that regard, IMO.

 

So, instead of t/j the other thread, let me open that for discussion here. If you are, or were, in an A, or your SO was, who do you felt had relatively more moral high ground, if anyone, and why? And how did that affect your subsequent R with your partner, if there is / was one?

[Toodaloo]

When I have discovered men I am dating are married I have not felt better. I have felt like a sack of s*** in fact.

 

When I have discovered that I have been cheated on its the same feeling.

 

Best not to get involved with any of it.

[carhill]

I tend to view all people as equals and did so during the couple decades with most interaction with MW's. However, with experience, I did have to mitigate my propensity to buy into their stories. That was an old unhealthy tape regarding women. It got fixed. Still, no better nor worse, just people.

[Just a Guy]

I guess if you are in an affair then whether you are single or married does'nt matter as far as morality or moral high ground is concerned. There is immorality involved if for no other reason then because you are hurting one innocent person in the mix the BS. I am sure the BS in any situation would consider his/her spouse's AP as a blackguard for having ensnared the spouse although there would be tremendous anger and resentment towards the wayward spouse. My opinion may not gel with everyone.

[NuevoYorko]

I'm surprised that you'd even be thinking of people involved with each other being "better" or "worse" than their partner.

 

I have a poor opinion of cheating and those who get involved with married people, including of myself when I did it (I was the married person). It didn't occur to me to wonder about whether I was superior or inferior to my affair partner.

[aileD]

As a BS, I feel that my H has more moral responsibility to ME than his AP.

 

But that doesn't get AP off the hook either, She knew he was married and she was involving herself in hurting me.

 

I honestly would have had more (any) respect for her if my H lied to her and said he wasn't married. She saw my picture in his office and his wedding ring and said "so what" and that disgusts me

 

But not as much as my husbands betrayal.

[wmacbride]

If you are / were a BS, did / do you feel the SAP is better, worse or the same as your WS? Why?

 

Just as I struggle to understand how fBS who clearly feel (or felt) revulsion for their WS can claim to be fully reconciled. Those BS who are in denial, projecting all the evil onto the OW / OM in order to reconcile are at least easier to understand, in that regard, IMO.

 

 

 

First off, most bs who blame the ow/om for their role in the A are not, as you put it " projecting all the evil on to the ow/om". In most cases , the bs is fully able to differentiate between the two and assigning responsibility accordingly. An affair takes two people.

 

Secondly, a person can make incredibly poor and hurtful choices without necessarily being a thoroughly bad person. A ws or ow/om who accepts responsibility for their choices is a very different kettle of fish than one who blames anyone and everyone else for how they acted.

 

In my own situation,my ws never once blamed me or the ow. He accepted responsibility and took ownership for his choices,and this is a big part of what allowed us to reconcile.

 

He is responsible for his actions, the ow is responsible for hers. Just as an ow can't somehow seduce a mm into cheating, neither can a mm/mw seduce the om/ow or the bs force their spouse to cheat. Except for the bs, all had choices about whether or not to cheat, and if they are blaming anyone else, for their actions, that's acting like a child. I don't know how someone can respect that. Tome, that's a sign of an immature person.

[BetrayedH]

I'm not sure I fall into any of your categories for respondents as I was the BS and both APs were married. But even if my wife's AP had been single, I would have found him just as reprehensible for participating.

 

I may not have been a saint, but I didn't deserve what either of them did to me.

 

For those APs that don't know they're an AP, they certainly don't deserve judgement. They are just another victim.

 

But for those that do know, they simply should have chosen otherwise.

[heartwhole]

If you are / were a BS, did / do you feel the SAP is better, worse or the same as your WS? Why?

 

She's certainly no worse than he is.

 

On DD and in the days and months that followed, my WH unleashed all his hurts and frustrations that had led him to justify infidelity. Literally one second he was confessing to having a secret girlfriend and the next he was saying, "You never walk to the shops with me! You don't wake up early like I asked!" (I have chronic fatigue.) I remember saying, "Why aren't you promising to spend the rest of your life making this up to me?" He just wasn't there. The walls of his defenses were too thick. Even 6 months after DD he was saying, "Are you REALLY saying this isn't your fault at all??!?" Yes, yes I am.

 

He wasn't intentionally gaslighting me. That was his reality then. But as a blindsided BW, even one with healthy self-esteem, this is incredibly hard to navigate. And then you come to forums like this and get more of the message that affairs are justifiable if you're not a good spouse.

 

Just as I struggle to understand how fBS who clearly feel (or felt) revulsion for their WS can claim to be fully reconciled. Those BS who are in denial, projecting all the evil onto the OW / OM in order to reconcile are at least easier to understand, in that regard, IMO.

 

Let me see if I understand what you're saying. This other woman (in your case, the first wife) who has impacted your life so much just doesn't act in a way that makes sense to you. So you come to a place like LS to figure it out. Been there, done that, just from the other side.

 

The short answer to your question is that neither remaining with a man you can't respect nor placing all the blame on the person who's not married to you is a healthy way forward. However, moving forward in a healthy way is possible if the WH does the work to become healthy himself.

 

I don't project all the evil onto the OW. By the second or third week after DD, my WH hit the anger stage and blamed the OW. He felt bamboozled by someone who claimed to have his best interests at heart. I shut down that blameshifting immediately. Do I think she's some understandable heroine in this situation? No, I suspect she has serious self-esteem and judgment issues. But there's no way a woman on another continent could force my husband to have an affair with her.

 

What I don't get, honestly, is what you don't get. You don't get how a BW could think that adultery is distasteful and unacceptable but feel that her husband has done the work to move past that? Isn't that what you did with your xMM turned husband?

 

It took about 9 months and entering IC for my husband to drop the defensive shield and start to address the affair with humility and ownership. Now he feels revulsion at the choices he made. We hug and cry together when we are both triggered. It didn't happen overnight by any stretch of the imagination. There was another 6 month period after that of serious growing pains and "practicing" but often failing with empathy, putting the family first, etc.

 

In the last 18 months he has matured a lot and worked to develop empathy and combat his tendency towards self-absorption. He doesn't collapse in a puddle of self-pity when he has a stressful time at work. He has a more mature perspective. He understands that he allowed his unspoken frustrations to turn into confirmation bias, so that he read malice and neglect into my actions when I was really just fatigued and oblivious. He realizes that a relationship thrives when each person focuses on how to give, not what he's getting.

 

I wasn't a perfect wife. We definitely were in more of a funk than at other points in our marriage. I could have understood and worked to meet his needs better. I could have forgiven myself for being sick and been healthier emotionally. But none of that excuses blowing up a marriage or the OW's life. Figure out your issues, work to resolve them, and move forward above-board. I don't know OW, so I don't know what was going on in her life that this relationship seemed like a good idea, but I can see how if my WH was viewing me negatively and feeling justified in the affair, why would she feel any different? And if we had divorced and I'd been justifiably annoyed that all this had gone down, then would she have continued to view me as some mutant kill joy who just doesn't get how to be a good wife? Perhaps.

 

In any case, I don't think people who respect themselves commit adultery. And that's a big part of my moral code. You outgrow marriages, but you deal with that in a healthy and above board way. On LS you read countless stories of the conflict-avoidant MM whose marriage is probably sh*tty because he doesn't know how to figure out what his needs are, let alone advocate for them. So it's easier just to escape and avoid and blame. And a person with those issues is not going to be a safe partner for either the BW he reconciles with or the OW he makes a go of it with until he develops new skills and insight into himself. And an OW who justifies being a secret side piece and who accepts lying and cheating when it's not done to her likewise has a lot of work to do before she is going to be a healthy partner, either to the MM or a new partner. Probably the BW has work to do too, but it's not evident simply by being married to a man who cheats on her.

[purplesorrow]

I thought they were both crappy people with ****ty behavior. I lost all respect for him and divorced. He has gained a lot of respect back through hard work to fix his issues. She just moved on to more husbands. She's on her third since my ex. I can't respect that.

[DKT3]

My wife had a single AP. Don't think it made any difference to me when it came to the affair itself. More later

 

I don't think I was ever disgusted with my wife for the affair, it was how she lied, mislead me after i knew about it that turned my stomach.

 

In the few emails I've seen, she conveniently saved a few of her breaking it off and rejecting his attempts to reconnect, go figure, he absolutely took the moral high ground. In one he berated her about how she could do something to a man (me) that she claims to have so much love for, and how he could never betray someone he loved.

 

Back to the single AP thing. For me him being single played a Hugh role in my decision to have another go at it with her. He was ready to step up and move her and my kids in, he was ready to go all the way. So for me it was never a question as to what she wanted, even after the divorce she never attempted to contact him. Had he been married I would have doubts as to her true intentions, even had i seen those same emails.

 

We have been successful in R to this point because we are both very different people now. I was selfish and self absorbed, she was a spoiled princess full of entitlement. But overall it's much simpler than that, we now listen to one another, we are empathic to the others feelings. Just having the desire to truly communicate and understand one another has healed alot of past pains.

[Chica80]

When A started, I was MOW he was engaged.

When I started A, I knew there was no going back. I was done. I'm done and I'm out. (I don't say this as a justification or excuse) I was done.

 

I told BS. I had no interest in working on marriage I had reached the end. I told him I was in love with someone else. (There were no plans to be with OM or future or even being "together"). I had no desire to work on things anymore. BS said it did not matter. He still wanted to work on things I said no.

I've seperated and am in the process of getting divorced.

OM is now MM has been over a year.

 

I have gone through many range of emotions.....

 

Yes at times I did feel "more moral" if that is even possible. He told me from the beginning he loved his then fiance.

I said how can you say you love her aND do this to her. Youre not even married yet. He went into it with this huge secret betrayal in between them. I believe she had a right to know and to make her own choice if she wanted to continue or not. So in this "circumstance" yes I disagreed and felt it was "more immoral"

Not that my part isn't. Immoral or that I'm ok with it or justifying it.

But I told BS about A. He wanted to work on things and he should know where I was.

 

Also my close friends know. I told them. To some extent my parents know too. My reasons for want g to leave marriage where not do to A. But it was def influential in my decision. So when discussing me ending my M to those important to me. I did not hide what I had done or chosen.

 

When I was going through seperation. I was very angry because all I could think was my life is falling apart a mess and you are starting a new one. Beautiful wife happy etc.....

 

But now, all the confusion and anger I look at myself. Because ultimately I'm the only one who can fix me and help me. Answers will never come from him.

[NewLeaf512]

When A started, I was MOW he was engaged.

When I started A, I knew there was no going back. I was done. I'm done and I'm out. (I don't say this as a justification or excuse) I was done.

 

I told BS. I had no interest in working on marriage I had reached the end. I told him I was in love with someone else. (There were no plans to be with OM or future or even being "together"). I had no desire to work on things anymore. BS said it did not matter. He still wanted to work on things I said no.

I've seperated and am in the process of getting divorced.

OM is now MM has been over a year.

 

I have gone through many range of emotions.....

 

Yes at times I did feel "more moral" if that is even possible. He told me from the beginning he loved his then fiance.

I said how can you say you love her aND do this to her. Youre not even married yet. He went into it with this huge secret betrayal in between them. I believe she had a right to know and to make her own choice if she wanted to continue or not. So in this "circumstance" yes I disagreed and felt it was "more immoral"

Not that my part isn't. Immoral or that I'm ok with it or justifying it.

But I told BS about A. He wanted to work on things and he should know where I was.

 

Also my close friends know. I told them. To some extent my parents know too. My reasons for want g to leave marriage where not do to A. But it was def influential in my decision. So when discussing me ending my M to those important to me. I did not hide what I had done or chosen.

 

When I was going through seperation. I was very angry because all I could think was my life is falling apart a mess and you are starting a new one. Beautiful wife happy etc.....

 

But now, all the confusion and anger I look at myself. Because ultimately I'm the only one who can fix me and help me. Answers will never come from him.

 

 

I was a SOW which when I found about him not being separated as I was told, I felt vindicated. Furious. Duped . Yes I felt better than him, and. Ether than her too. I had met her at work functions and dinner where she behaved strangely and irratically humilated him and treated him as a pet and demeanedhim in front of his superiors and I ambetter than that.

 

She's a very loving parent. She lives for her kids.shes waybwdetet at that.shes a master manipulator. She's better at that, I'm a door mat and be ealedanfs. She's better at that.

 

Tomorrow is tneir26 yeAr wedding anniversary. Being married to a man cheated 3 times we know of, longaffairs lasting years. She's better.

 

Tiefor whose better atcrying over a loser serial cheater. She's better at staying and loving and being sexual with3 other women She thinks she won and is happyi lost and gotthr biggest gifts ever: freedom,self awareness, experienced grief,snd survived and don't marginalise myself any more for anyone ever, So the real winner is me. I've apologised when possible, grieved for

Agesabd thenit stuck me. I became sane again. I'm

[Midwestmissy]

I couldn't believe mow spoke about leaving her kids - 4 of them - for wh. He kept moving his goal posts to justify the affair - she must be good if she's with me, there must be a great reason she'd leave her family. Oh yeah I'm the great reason. He saw the what he wanted to see, the affair was really about him. She was a serial cheater who had been in her share of laps as a married woman, so i actually judge him more harshly - she doesn't have a moral compass to speak of, I think buying pants with reinforced knees is probably her big priority. And not for church. I do think her being married had built in security for him - in his screwed up thinking, she was 'safe'. So it wasn't as 'bad'.

 

But they were equally stupid and he did mental gymnastics to justify their actions. He actually spent time - an uncomfortably awkward long time when I was in the dark still - telling me what a good person she was. It was a very bizarre conversation because nothing he said about her actually made her sound good at all, it made no sense. He made her sound like an idiot and claimed she was awesome. Like 2+2=5 and he wouldn't have it any other way. And I was called hateful when I laughed and pointed it out. It was one of those times that the hair on my neck stood up and I Shook it off. Because he made me feel so mean and judgy. Not something he's proud of. But he did have lines he woukdnt cross with her (like bringing her to our home) that allowed him to convince himself that he was having a more moral affair. Just more mental hoops he jumped thru to pat himself on the back. Trust me, I don't give him moral cookies or stars for those decisions. He went into it eyes wide open, just chose to believe consequences were for fools who get caught, not 'good' people like him.

[SammySammy]

I was a single OM and I must admit I didn't feel as bad about the affair as I would have if I had been married.

 

I don't feel I was on "moral high ground" because it eventually bothered me enough to end the affair.

 

I just feel that I would have felt much worse or more guilty if I had been married. I've never cheated on a woman I've been committed to and that's important to me. Wouldn't have gotten involved in that affair if I had known she was married.

 

There's an old song that says "if you can't keep your woman from me, it's your fault". I guess it's easy to think an affair is ultimately a problem between the couple. The other woman or other man can be a contributing factor, but the betrayal occurred when the WS decided to be unfaithful.

 

That's one way to look at it, but, like I said, my conscience bothered me until I ended the affair and came to this site to figure out what I had done and why.

[Mr. Lucky]

If things were different - say, his M wasn't toxic, or his XW wasn't abusive - I may have felt differently (though it's unlikely he'd have been in an A then).

 

Given the way most WS misrepresent their BS in order to justify the affair, how does an AP decide if the WS has a toxic marriage?

 

Almost all BS are made out to be neglectful, selfish and emotionally abusive...

 

Mr. Lucky

[seren]

I hate dishonesty in all things, when it infidelity I try to understand the force being in love is and its place in an affair relationship and I cannot find any morality in it. To hurt someone else, just to satisfy my own needs is outside my own moral compass. Just because a BS cannot be seen turning themselves into knots wondering where the WS is when they are later home than promised, to wonder if they are going crazy when they are told something they know to be untrue, doesn't mean it isn't happening. I want for others what I have for myself, I like people to be happy, I value honesty and integrity and I value fidelity. I could no more enable a cheater than fly to Mars.

 

When my H told me about the a I didn't hate him, I hated what he had done, but not the man I knew and loved. My rationale was that I didn't hate my H, so I couldn't hate the OW, but I apportioned equal blame on her shoulders for my hurt. Funnily enough when H began to say bad things about her I stopped him dead, I wish AP's would do the same when WS's do this to try to justify their actions. My thought is that if a person is staying either in an A or marriage then there must be a reason, and no, I do not think staying for the children is a reason, maybe an excuse for not leaving. While A's are ongoing there is always some change in the background noise of a family.

 

The OW's actions after the A were vindictive and nasty, toward me, for that I judge her and I tried to help her, but she reminded me of a child who's favourite toy has been taken away and blamed me for stopping my H from contacting her, had she known H as well as she said she would have known if he had wanted to leave he would have left at the start.

 

H had PTSD and Combat Stress, not excuses for an A, but very real reasons, these illnesses are up there as having A's as symptoms. Had H not been ill, then I would have opened the door and told him to go. As it was he says that when the words were out of his mouth he felt relief, yet struggles some 9 years later to reconcile himself with the A. he says his integrity and morals have been smashed and he cannot ever get that back.

 

I have only ever wanted the OW to find peace, yet I moved over 600 miles away less I bumped into her and gave vent to my feelings. I didn't want to be THAT person, I stopped all nasty talk about her from my family and friends, does that give me the moral high ground? No, it just means I take more care about people's feelings and think about how my actions could impact upon another. I have never understood how anyone could share the person they love knowingly, I see all AP's doing that, it doesn't give me the moral high ground, just has me shaking my head thinking why on earth anyone would settle for that treatment and call it love.

 

H once said that the OW tried to convince him I might be having an A, H said he was so angry that he said to her that I wasn't like that, that I wouldn't hurt anyone that way, which is hypocritical and peed her off no end. A's are full of judgemental statements and actions, how many times do we hear OW/OM, WS try to justify the A by saying there was no sex, the BS didn't take care of themselves, the WS couldn't leave etc etc. Fact is, there is never justification for an A, leaving a broken marriage that cannot be fixed isn't easy, but it happens all the time. There is simply no justification for hurting someone else, either as a participator or an enabler. It doesn't give anyone the moral high ground, but, in my book, it certainly calls into question a person's regard for the feelings of others.

 

The hardest thing we face with an A as part of our marriage history is my H trying to reconcile the man he feels he was and was proud to be, with the man he feels he is now. he judges himself badly for the A and never forgives himself, yes he has counselling, but he has his own moral compass and idea of what integrity means and he feels he has failed himself.

[Just a Guy]

GHi Folks, My own opinion is that for anyone one in, or who had ever been in, an affair to talk about moral high ground or morality itself is absurd in the extreme. Morality would come into the picture if a married person who fell in love with another were to have first divorced before pursuing a love affair with another. The same logic goes for some one who is single and in love with a married person. He or she should wait for that person to divorce before getting involved with him/her. Prior to that the relationship should be purely platonic.

 

As it is an affair is a painful and deceitful relationship. It is conducted in the dark, behind the backs of those we have vowed to love and cherish to the end of our days and it is built on a structure of lies and false assurances. If that be the case then how does one weave morality into the mix? How can one reconcile the pain one causes to the one person who is the true victim in all this the BS, with any talk of morality with regard to one's Affair Partner depending on whether you or he/she is married or single? That kind of thinking has to be a complete No No in my book. Period.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Just a Guy

[wmacbride]

In this situation,a mm/rmw who lies and says he or she is not married at all so so far removed from having any moral ground to stand on.

 

I know a woman who met and fell in love with a man who lies and told her he was single,no wife or kids.It was an easy lie for him to keep going, as he was in her country for work,with wife and kids at home. He would tell my friend that he was going home as part of his work,and was going to be very busy and she wouldn't hear from him as much. He'd come back to the USA and pick up with my friend where he left off. They made long term plans for the relationship, and he had even bought her an engagement ring. She introduced him to her friends, and we thought he was a nice enough guy.

 

After a while, she began to think something was up with him, but she didn't know what. She did some checking, and even hired someone to investigate his situation.

 

Finding out he was married nearly destroyed her, as it completely went against her moral compass to be with a married man. She felt incredibly guilty,and her heart was broken. For a long time, she didn't trust he judgement with men, and was messed up emotionally and mentally for some time. She's doing much better now.

 

How could that man do this to her? She was besotted with him, and he knew how she felt about affairs, as they'd talked about how hurtful they are.

 

To me, he is the lowest of the low.

[Just a Guy]

Hi wmacbride, I guess your friend made a huge mistake. She seems to have been a bit naive and too trusting. I would think that a man who does not belong to your own country and is a smooth talker should have raised her suspicions straightaway. Sorry that she had to learn her lesson the hard way. This guy seems to have been the kind of man that in the old days was referred to as 'Having a wife in every port'.

[wmacbride]

Hi wmacbride, I guess your friend made a huge mistake. She seems to have been a bit naive and too trusting. I would think that a man who does not belong to your own country and is a smooth talker should have raised her suspicions straightaway. Sorry that she had to learn her lesson the hard way. This guy seems to have been the kind of man that in the old days was referred to as 'Having a wife in every port'.

 

She's one of those people who wants to see only the good in people, and was very trusting.

Not anymore.

[Just a Guy]

Hi wm, good for her. Hope she finds a good man to settle down and who will restore her trust in men in particular and people in general.

[cocorico]

Let me see if I understand what you're saying. This other woman (in your case, the first wife) who has impacted your life so much just doesn't act in a way that makes sense to you.

 

Actually, this wasn't inspired by my H's xW, but by a discussion on another thread where a single fAP was dissing MAPs, including their own fMAP - but claiming that everything was just great now, that the fMAP now spouse had somehow redeemed the self by divorcing the fBS and marrying this fAP. To my mind, if you thought so little of someone at the time - yet had a R for years with them, despite thinking so little of them - how do you suddenly muster respect? By this person's account, there was no IC or CC but simply an "aha!" moment where the fMAP decided to change who they were entirely and marry the fAP. It seemed unintuitive to me. Likewise those fBSs who claim to have successfully reconciled but never have a good word for their fWS - either during the A (no surprises) or since. If you think so little of someone, why are you together?

 

 

What I don't get, honestly, is what you don't get. You don't get how a BW could think that adultery is distasteful and unacceptable but feel that her husband has done the work to move past that? Isn't that what you did with your xMM turned husband?

 

 

Oh this I get entirely! I've always argued that the process of (proper) reconciliation is the same as the process fAPs go through transitioning an A to a M (or other FTR) if either is to be sustainable. There has to be borough introspection and hard work, and (IMO) preferably IC or CC with a skilled counsellor to address the issues that led to the infidelity. Which is very different to saying, I've lived my entire life with these values, but now I'm choosing to live my life by other values, just because of your magic genitalia.

 

In any case, I don't think people who respect themselves commit adultery.

 

I'm sure you're correct in that.

[cocorico]

Given the way most WS misrepresent their BS in order to justify the affair, how does an AP decide if the WS has a toxic marriage?

 

 

Like anything else, I suppose - don't believe what you're told, go and collect evidence and make up your own mind.

[elaine567]

Like anything else, I suppose - don't believe what you're told, go and collect evidence and make up your own mind.

 

But can you trust your own mind if you are deep in an affair, surely you would see what you want to believe?

 

"Confirmation bias is the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's pre-existing beliefs or hypotheses, while giving disproportionately less consideration to alternative possibilities."