What are the REAL stats??

[LadyBrowneyes]

So I've been doing a little bit of research on the success of marriages that have been damaged by one or more affairs. At first I was thinking that what I was coming up with sounded a little bit overblown (MOST marriages are successfully rebuilt? Really?), until I realized that all of the places these stats were being thrown around were on therapists' websites. Well, of course they're going to say that, they make money off these attempts to rebuild!

 

Then I look further and see that all of these "success" stories of couples who have stayed together are riddled with triggers, confidence issues, trust issues, etc. for years.

 

So how often does it truly work out? What about if there's a second affair? Am I overlooking something when I feel like true success stories between married couples post-affair look to be just about as much of a long shot as happily ever after for affair partners? If a marriage was unhappy before, can it honestly be happy with all that added baggage?

 

I don't want the therapists' sales pitches. I want the real deal here. Is it worth it to stay and try to repair, or no? At what point do you decide you gave it your best shot and cut your losses after investing the time, energy and emotions to try? At what point do you consider it a "success?"

[JohnAdams]

It is very personal. Only you know if it is worth it to stay and try to work it out or if it is time to quit and throw in the towel.

 

Also, only you will know when it is a success.

 

I do not think you can rely on success/failure statistics. Marriage is hard without an affair. With an affair even harder.

 

You will probably never hear about most of the successful reconciliations because many couples deal with it and go on with life.

[Redhead14]

The "success" rate for recovering and having a happy marriage after infidelity is less that 35%. It often takes years for "success" to be realized and with a success rate that low, I would not invest years only to likely be faced with a fail.

 

Therapists are the only credible source for statistics because they've heard it from the "horses mouth" countless times and have an upclose and personal view from both sides of an "affair", whether it's a couple that comes together or a partner who comes in as an individual. It is extremely disheartening to see first-hand, hear the pain and confusion infidelity causes. They get paid for their support and experience because they aren't doing it because it's fun . . .

 

It's sometimes almost frightening to "see" how many people in this world have lost their way in this world. And, to put it bluntly, to know how many screwed up people are walking around everyday with the potential to create havoc in their own lives or others. I liken it to people who are assigned as first responders for disasters and have been educated to the potential dangers they are charged to protect civilians from. They know some scary stuff . . . that the rest of us don't wanna know.

 

Couples who have run their relationships into the ditch have failed because they didn't have the skills/dedication necessary to make it successful by themselves . . . so, where else should they go except to people who have some very deep insight from people who actually have experienced it. The clients that come in with biased and jaded opinions of the value of counseling don't have success with counseling anyway because they can't get real with the counselor and are resistant.

 

Counselors will tell a couple whether it's worth it or not if both parties do get real and accept their own part in the failure of the relationship. Most individuals come in with the concept that they are right and will fight for their own cause.

 

The really sad thing, is that sometimes the "victim" will actually decide that they can trust their partner again if the "perpetrator" is clearly remorseful and repentant, but the 'perpetrators' don't trust themselves . . . they've undermined their own self-worth which, in turn, makes it difficult for them to accept and truly enjoy the marriage.

 

"Success" is achieved when both parties have been able to leave that experience behind them, have forgiven, aren't triggered by future events, are feeling secure and fulfilled, are working together as a team, use insight and empathy and respect when dealing with each other on a daily basis and can trust each other again . . . good luck with that.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Redhead14

[BetrayedH]

I'll ask for a pass from those who have heard me rant about these stats before.

 

I, too, have heard the "87%" of marriages survive infidelity statistics. It's commonly quoted from those who are in the Harley camp, and he is most certainly in the business of selling his books on affair recovery.

 

The problem I always have with this stat is that it doesn't even jive with the stats about overall failure rate of marriages. While divorce is on a slight decline, there's still about a 50% divorce rate. So...does is make any sense that your odds of a staying married go up by 37% when infidelity occurs? Color me skeptical.

 

I wish I could cite the source for the following for you but I can't. This study looked at couples two years post-Dday. Where the infidelity was voluntarily disclosed by the wayward, 70% remained together. Where the infidelity was instead discovered, only 35% remained together (and only half of those couples reported as being "happy.")

 

Considering how long it can take for a divorce to even take effect, I suspect that the numbers plummet after that two year mark. In my case, it took me 7 months to decide on divorce and another 10 months before it was final. I'd guess that many other married couples take longer.

 

But your questions didn't just focus on stats.

 

From what I've seen, it takes two things to successfully reconcile: (1) A truly remorseful wayward spouse and (2) A truly forgiving betrayed spouse. And #2 cannot come before #1. It sounds simple but I think both things are a very tall order. For the BS, it can take years just to have confidence about what kind kf WS you have on your hands.

 

Is it worth it to try? I don't regret my efforts to try. But she wasn't truly remorseful. It's good it ended when it did.

[Redhead14]

I'll ask for a pass from those who have heard me rant about these stats before.

 

I, too, have heard the "87%" of marriages survive infidelity statistics. It's commonly quoted from those who are in the Harley camp, and he is most certainly in the business of selling his books on affair recovery.

 

The problem I always have with this stat is that it doesn't even jive with the stats about overall failure rate of marriages. While divorce is on a slight decline, there's still about a 50% divorce rate. So...does is make any sense that your odds of a staying married go up by 37% when infidelity occurs? Color me skeptical.

 

I wish I could cite the source for the following for you but I can't. This study looked at couples two years post-Dday. Where the infidelity was voluntarily disclosed by the wayward, 70% remained together. Where the infidelity was instead discovered, only 35% remained together (and only half of those couples reported as being "happy.")

 

Considering how long it can take for a divorce to even take effect, I suspect that the numbers plummet after that two year mark. In my case, it took me 7 months to decide on divorce and another 10 months before it was final. I'd guess that many other married couples take longer.

 

But your questions didn't just focus on stats.

 

From what I've seen, it takes two things to successfully reconcile: (1) A truly remorseful wayward spouse and (2) A truly forgiving betrayed spouse. And #2 cannot come before #1. It sounds simple but I think both things are a very tall order. For the BS, it can take years just to have confidence about what kind kf WS you have on your hands.

 

Is it worth it to try? I don't regret my efforts to try. But she wasn't truly remorseful. It's good it ended when it did.

 

As I stated above, the success rate for recovery after infidelity is less than 35%. I don't know where those 70% numbers are coming from, but I can tell you unequivocably that that is not accurate and if those stats are being published, they are being published by members of the counseling profession who are doing it for self-serving purposes. There are counselors who are less than devoted to helping clients and out for monetary gain. There are bad apples in lots of different barrels.

[BetrayedH]

I should correct myself. The stat that is thrown around is not 87%. It's 78%, which is commonly rounded up to an even 80.

[Redhead14]

I should correct myself. The stat that is thrown around is not 87%. It's 78%, which is commonly rounded up to an even 80.

 

Either way, those stats are incorrect or skewed by intent

[JustGettingBy]

Either way, those stats are incorrect or skewed by intent

 

Or have a very forgiving definition of 'survive'.

[Redhead14]

Or have a very forgiving definition of 'survive'.

 

Yeah, they counted the people who simply decided to stay together because it was easier and cheaper than divorce or didn't want to actually do the work necessary and are simply operating on auto-pilot and making it look good . . .

[carhill]

Since we can't read minds and people lie, even to professional psychologists and therapists, IMO there are no real stats, only anecdotes. Why lie and admit to an affair? Who knows? People are odd creatures. Then there's disparity of perception. What to one person is a clear affair is to another person, wha, have you lost it? I'm married, not dead. We each perceive life, and human actions, uniquely and with our own bias and, well, therapists, psychologists and other professionals are human too and bring their own perceptions and biases.

 

In my own experience with MW's, not in any way a statistic, far more have remained married than not. Those most commonly divorced were the serial MW's, where they admitted, though they could have lied, to numerous affairs and/or ONS. Spanning nearly 4 decades now, I know of two personally who remained married, now closing in on thirty years, and in both of those cases the anecdote was revenge affairs, whether she was first or he was first, again who knows, but the story was both spouses had affairs. Even steven, they evidently have worked it out to the satisfaction of the parties and stayed married.

 

Lastly, what is an affair? Plenty of MW's I've had contact with over the decades assert it's dickinsider, meaning PIV sex, and everything else is, well, Bill Clinton. If they tell me they love me, kiss me, sneak tender moments I'm sure their spouse would vehemently object to, bzzt, no affair since no dickinsider. Our MC, a psychologist, disagreed, and defined an affair as *any* behavior that one's spouse or partner deems inappropriate in the relationship. However, that's one man's opinion and does he speak for all those MW's? Nah, they couldn't care less about his spew. They do what they do.

 

There's your stats. Enjoy life. It's brief.

[Gloria25]

Look, when I see stats or survey results or polls I ask myself of the: source, population, method, etc...

 

If you remember in college, they taught us how to conduct polls, surveys, etc. You can manipulate the results by your choice of sample, size, population, method, variables, etc...

 

So, if I see a poll/survey/stat/etc from let's say a group of family law lawyers, I gotta question the results cuz they make money off of people's misery. They are gonna encourage divorce, custody battles, etc.

 

Agreeing with carhill, majority of the time couples are gonna make up and move on. Why? For one, you got shared kids and/or finances. The legal proceedings are expensive enough, and then now instead of two people sharing the bills, you have two separate households. Divorce often puts kids in poverty. Then, with visitation and/or your spouse moving on you lose control of your kids. They can expose your kids to all the idiots they are dating (which may include pedophiles who prey on single moms), kids get two sets of households with different rules, and it's just miserable. Lastly, regardless of the source, many who divorce regret doing so after like five years...in other words, they realized they divorced for silly/petty reasons. Like my fav podcaster says, if there's "affairs, abuse, addictions" yes, get the heck out of there and protect your kids. But, if it's 'I just don't feel in love anymore', 'He/she gets on my nerves'...then suck it up and make it work till the kids are 18, up and out cuz breaking up a family over silly stuff like that is gonna make it worst all over.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Gloria25

[BetrayedH]

Certainly there are stats that are crap, and many of them.

 

I generally try to lean towards stats that are as scientific as reasonably practicable: thousands of people surveyed, self-disclosed results, preferably to a computer. There are such surveys about marriage, divorce, etc.. On another prominent site, there's a survey of 80k people. While some of those responses are certainly skewed in one way or another, you can still glean trends with some degree of accuracy. There's no doubt that infidelity stats are some of the most difficult to trust as there is inherent dishonesty involved but you can still get some reasonable data.

[carhill]

What I like about marriage and divorce is that they are quantifiable. We paid for and obtained a marriage license in Honolulu and signed it and our official at the wedding recorded it. It's a legal record. Same with the divorce lawsuit. No arguing with that.

 

OK, prove that I had an affair. Prove that my wife did. Impossible. I could say I never had an affair, the Bill Clinton defense. Is that a lie? Is it the truth? Same with my now exW. Can I prove she did have an affair? Didn't? IDK, she was living with a guy as soon as we were separated. Me, I'm still living alone after seven years. Who had the affair again? Oh, right, that was me. I'll go ahead and self-report. Heh.

 

I know this sounds sarcastic but that's the human equation in all this stuff. People hurt people every day and frankly I'm glad more of us don't die, you know like Robby Gordon's, the NASCAR racer's, step-mom, who was strangled today by her husband before he killed himself. Stuff like that. Who had the affair in that family? IDK, maybe no one. We do know that two people died because, well, they're dead. That's verifiable.

 

Relationships are always risky. Expect problems. Expect betrayals. Expect death, at some point anyway. Enjoy the good times when they happen.

[Gloria25]

Certainly there are stats that are crap, and many of them.

 

I generally try to lean towards stats that are as scientific as reasonably practicable: thousands of people surveyed, self-disclosed results, preferably to a computer. There are such surveys about marriage, divorce, etc.. On another prominent site, there's a survey of 80k people. While some of those responses are certainly skewed in one way or another, you can still glean trends with some degree of accuracy. There's no doubt that infidelity stats are some of the most difficult to trust as there is inherent dishonesty involved but you can still get some reasonable data.

 

Nah, you can manipulate computers too.

 

In the military my commander was after a guy who was getting out of the military. Yea, the kid was a loser, slacker and druggie, but come on, let the kid get out of the military and go on his merry way. But nope, commander wanted to get him hot on a urine test so he ordered me to reduce the number of names I input for the computer to do the "random" selection on - so that the kid would come up on the list of test takers.

 

I just walked away without saying a word to that fool. I don't go after people. My commander was a jerk. Let him go find another fool to do his bidding.

[minimariah]

...(MOST marriages are successfully rebuilt? Really?)...

 

i think successfully rebuilt REALLY means not divorced... so the stats ARE correct because most couples do stay together -- it's super hard to measure someone's happiness & forgiveness... a reconciled couple might have a few good years but theeeeeen... the 2nd affair might happen + they're at it AGAIN.

 

so i don't think there are realiable stats showing how truthful a couple's recovery is -- but yes... most do stay together!

 

So how often does it truly work out?

 

in my experience - very rarely. it takes a lot of work + YEARS and the doubt is usually always there + the triggers... it usually just gets worse. i think the folks who are TRULY able to forgive are those who don't think about it too much and just kind of... forget about it.

 

I don't want the therapists' sales pitches. I want the real deal here. Is it worth it to stay and try to repair, or no?

 

depends on the situation but generally speaking... if there are young children involved + if there is honest effort from both sides, if they have something to work with... yeah, i guess it's worth it.

 

at what point do you call it a success...? hm... at what point do you call a marriage in general - a success? i believe a relationship isn't a goal, it's a journey. so you can decide if it was a failure or a succes at the very end, when it's all said and done.

[cocorico]

 

at what point do you call it a success...? hm... at what point do you call a marriage in general - a success? i believe a relationship isn't a goal, it's a journey. so you can decide if it was a failure or a succes at the very end, when it's all said and done.

 

i agree with most of the post (including what's not quoted here) though I'd query the bolded bit. Is it really only at the end that you can decide? If it's a journey rather than a goal, isn't the journey what matters, rather than the final destination?

 

To me, my H and I have had a dozen or so wonderful years together. If something happened tomorrow, would it undo that? Not in my view. We'd still have had those dozen wonderful years. I would not regret it for a moment. And, to my mind, that is a success. If, at some point in the future, we walk away from it because we want something else, that doesn't mean it wasn't a success at the time - just that our needs changed. Tripping and falling in the 800m at the 2016 Olympics does not erase your gold medal from the 2012 Olympics.

 

OTOH if we stayed together with gritted teeth, waiting for kids to leave home (or waiting for the other spouse to die, or whatever) - even though we stayed together, was that a success? We may have reached the "goal" (not splitting up) but the journey was a nightmare, and I'd say that at any point during the journey it would be apparent that it wasn't a success, long before you reached the "destination" (or didn't).

[Quiet Storm]

Many people think of marriages like a book with many chapters. Good parts and bad parts.

 

Commitment is what gets you through the down times until the good times come again. Marriages aren't all good or all bad. A couple having trust issues or problems forgiving doesn't make reconciliation a failure.

 

Most marriages face some kind of stress or disappointment over the years. Some couples persevere and some do not. Some are a constant work in progress.

 

In my opinion, commitment exists because it's unrealistic to expect a perfect marriage. Two different people, with their own issues, coming from different families (with their own issues), with their own personalities, faults and shortcomings- there will be problems of many kinds. I think infidelity would be difficult to forgive, but that wouldn't mean it's not worth it to try. For many, family is everything. People make mistakes.

 

If you meet older couples married for 40-50 years, they may look cute and blissful, but many had problems, such as infidelity, along the way. Some have lost children, some have faced alcoholism or addiction, some have dealt with mental illness or long absences due to war or work.

 

Many marriages evolve from young love, to trying to balance kids and work and romance, growing and maturing together, while overcoming family of origin baggage. There's stress and bumps in the road. Eventually, the kids leave and they'll deal with grief from lost parents or stress from caring for aging parents. Then, they'll be facing their own health issues. Maybe they won't be having wild passionate sex, but they'll help each other find their glasses, remind each other to take their medicine, etc.

 

For some people, their family is their family, flaws and all (and this includes a spouse). Divorcing a spouse might feel like disowning a difficult adult child- it just feels wrong to them. Divorce would feel like a failure. They want to work it out. They don't want the book (their legacy) to end that way. They want to be buried side by side in the cemetery- problems long forgotten and hopeful that their legacy, the happy memories that their loved ones hold on to, will endure.

[minimariah]

Is it really only at the end that you can decide?

 

in my opinion - yes. the journey is what truly matters, of course -- but there IS a final destination (break up; death). and when you get there... only THEN can you look back and see was it worth it & would you call it a waste or a success.

 

a failed relationship, marriage... it's EXACTLY that - a failure. some relationships end prettier than the others and you'll remember the great times, not regretting a second... folks might even benefit from that failure & it might improve their lives... all of that doesn't erase the fact that it ultimately FAILED. and no amount of succes & good times in the past will change that.

[cocorico]

in my opinion - yes. the journey is what truly matters, of course -- but there IS a final destination (break up; death). and when you get there... only THEN can you look back and see was it worth it & would you call it a waste or a success.

 

a failed relationship, marriage... it's EXACTLY that - a failure. some relationships end prettier than the others and you'll remember the great times, not regretting a second... folks might even benefit from that failure & it might improve their lives... all of that doesn't erase the fact that it ultimately FAILED. and no amount of succes & good times in the past will change that.

 

My point wasn't really whether relationships "fail" or "succeed" (though that is also open to debat) but whether that view (of Rs as successes or failures) is consistent with the view that it's the journey that matters rather than the destination. If the destination matters, then terming it a success or failure makes sense; if the journey is what matters and not the destination, then issues of success or failure are inconsequential as its the quality of the R over time that counts, not whether or not they were together that the end.