MM are designed to hurt us

[Southern Sun]

Whilst I'm not sure whether he does understand, my concern would be whether it gave him any perverse satisfaction if I clarified my feelings.

 

 

 

I think there is so much in this - he wants the sex now and then but wants no emotions. I said to him last week that he doesn't know what he should do with me. He responded that he does - keep me at arms length. I'm close enough to reel in when he wants me and far enough away the rest of the time for him to pretend nothing is going on.

 

It's occurred to me since I started this thread that his guilt and back off mode last week may in part be due to the weekend not only being his wedding anniversary but also his wife's 60th birthday with lots of family celebrations etc. I'm sure he feels like he's the great husband after our latest ending (he's ended things before so I'm not convinced he won't be back).

 

Finally - thank you both for actually trying to help me with my last post and not just use it as a means of making another attack.

 

Look, people are going to say you are playing a big role in this and we only have your side of the story, but I am going to put this out there - this is a HUGE abuse of power. I think this is leading to you feeling a lack of control of your own decision making. He's managing down your expectations and over time, this will make you feel like less and less of a person to the point that your very currency (in your own mind) is your value to him (via sex).

 

Please try to start detaching from him in little ways and over time, you will be able to take back your own agency. This is a very concerning situation for you - for your mental health right now, ongoing, your marriage, and your professional future.

[Messy Lady]

So many good posts to respond to so I'll try to pick up key points here.

 

S2B- I know I'm not a victim. I'm in this position because I've chosen to be here through my (in)actions.

 

Winter keep - I think you are spot on with how MM creates this narrative to blame me for us. He has flirted outrageously either me and is always the first to make a move after he's ended things. I hardly think I've forced him into anything but his image matters in that he has even said we are not having an affair even when having sex etc on a regular basis! This ties in with it being "just sex" which has been said more than once and was what I wanted at first.

 

Imsosad - you're right. My emotions don't matter to him unless they start causing too much pressure. I think the latest ending is because he's overestimated what I want from him (I don't expect ILYs or anything like that)

 

Southern sun - do you really see it as abuse? Am I that much under his control?

[Miss Clavel]

I know there is hypocrisy is complaining about how MM is treating me when I am married but how I am therefore treating my husband. In spite of what you may think, I love my husband and I do not want to leave him. But this thread is not about my husband and my marriage. It's about how I deal with the MM.

 

As I said in my opening post, he and I have not been together for several weeks. We have known that would be the case and if he had used that time to end things between us, I was actually prepared for that. It would have been easier for him too. But instead he has flirted and teased and made frequent reference to "us". He has led on this talk, I.e. he has been the one to initiate this kind of talk when we spoke. He has done nothing to make me think we were over until last week when he said he was "being good now". I think that was said the day before he asked me if I still loved him and he squeezed my thigh. Actions and words are far from consistent with him at times.

 

Then yesterday he carries on the flirting and whilst we knew all we could do was talk and nothing more, he suddenly starts talking of how I want more than he can give, yet also saying that he cannot do sex without emotion, that he's not like that. Somehow I was been accused of wanting more yet bring able to have sex without emotion and he was saying that he could only have sex with emotion yet also said he had been able to separate us from emotions because he has to as he is my boss. It was all contradictions trying to make it sound as if I was the problem. He and I are BOTH the problem.

 

He plays hot and cold and I let him. He keeps me just close enough for if he wants me and I let him.

 

I have given him that power over me. This is not the kind of person I usually am. I am a strong woman in so many ways but choose to be weak with him. But I am so annoyed that he tries to make out that he is innocent in all this and that it's all on me. What does he think? That I forced him to have sex with me??

 

i went thru something similar, for years. and when i'd tell my bff about him doing this to me she'd say, "he's an ahole". over and over she'd say the same thing, "he's an ahole". "who cares why"?

 

and you know what, she was right. an ahole acts like an ahole, because they can and because we let them.

 

what he's doing is hurting you. cuz he's an ahole.

[winterkeep]

I think that there is an element of abuse, this man is your boss no? There is an immediate power imbalance here which, for very good reason; is controlled by law in some cases or by companies HR policy in others. If the imbalance wasn't significant the law wouldn't seek to protect those in a vulnerable position.

 

Regardless, as you have stated you aren't powerless and can control your part in this - I think you've already come to the realisation that you need to walk away but doing and saying are two very different things.

 

I believe that you need to see a psych, it's possible that there are underlying reasons that keep you in this cycle of trying to gain this mans approval that you need to explore. it does sound to me as though it is his approval you seek opposed to sexual attention. He isn't going to give it to you, I don't think he has the capacity to really see others as autonomous beings so you're never going to be successful. By the sound of things you've tried sex, being loving and supportive, being detached and emotionless, being personal and professional and NOTHING has worked simply because it can't.

 

I know you want to keep discussions on your own marriage separate from this so I hope you do seek psychological support as the two issues are intrinsically linked. I don't want to make any assumptions on your marriage so won't comment further

 

I'm sorry you have to work with this man, it must be horrendous.

[Messy Lady]

Abuse? You are abusing yourself by still being concerned with him.

 

He doesn't need to even participate for you to go full throttle on yourself.

 

Have you considered therapy to help you with your self destructive thoughts/actions.

 

The abuse is done to you - by you.

 

Whilst I don't entirely agree with your sentiment, I do agree it's not abuse as I'm in this situation by choice.

[Messy Lady]

I think that there is an element of abuse, this man is your boss no? There is an immediate power imbalance here which, for very good reason; is controlled by law in some cases or by companies HR policy in others. If the imbalance wasn't significant the law wouldn't seek to protect those in a vulnerable position.

 

Regardless, as you have stated you aren't powerless and can control your part in this - I think you've already come to the realisation that you need to walk away but doing and saying are two very different things.

 

I believe that you need to see a psych, it's possible that there are underlying reasons that keep you in this cycle of trying to gain this mans approval that you need to explore. it does sound to me as though it is his approval you seek opposed to sexual attention. He isn't going to give it to you, I don't think he has the capacity to really see others as autonomous beings so you're never going to be successful. By the sound of things you've tried sex, being loving and supportive, being detached and emotionless, being personal and professional and NOTHING has worked simply because it can't.

 

I know you want to keep discussions on your own marriage separate from this so I hope you do seek psychological support as the two issues are intrinsically linked. I don't want to make any assumptions on your marriage so won't comment further

 

I'm sorry you have to work with this man, it must be horrendous.

 

On a work perspective, he and I have a great relationship. He trusts me and that is demonstrated by words and actions. He is also full of praise for my work. More than once he has said work would fall apart without me. He is treating me as number two within the organisation even though I have peers. So plenty of validation within work where I am also probably the person who challenges him most.

 

Your point about walking away however is very accurate. Knowing and doing are two very different things.

[Miss Clavel]

On a work perspective, he and I have a great relationship. He trusts me and that is demonstrated by words and actions. He is also full of praise for my work. More than once he has said work would fall apart without me. He is treating me as number two within the organisation even though I have peers. So plenty of validation within work where I am also probably the person who challenges him most.

 

.

if i worked there i'd report your affair with our boss.

[Messy Lady]

if i worked there i'd report your affair with our boss.

 

 

And? MM and I work harder than anybody else does. The business has not suffered in anyway. I am treated as the number two because of my work, nothing else. And if I ever did mess up at work I wouldn't get away with it.

[Lobe]

And? MM and I work harder than anybody else does. The business has not suffered in anyway. I am treated as the number two because of my work, nothing else. And if I ever did mess up at work I wouldn't get away with it.

 

I vote you try... kind of like a litmus test...

 

Messy, I am sure you feel like you've gotten all the tough love you can muster by now but I'm with the majority on this one - when do you stop making excuses?

 

You are outright lying to yourself (and him) about your feelings and expectations - you want more, you expect more, you dream of the ILY, and he doesn't want to deal with that he just wants someone other than his wife to help him ejaculate once in a while. Frankly, I'm actually totally with your MM that you're dangerously messy to be involved with. Truer words have never been spoken. Sadly, he's obviously not clueless enough to see that he has a lovelorn puppy nipping at his heels and I'm assuming what he is doing with all this push-pull is trying to train you to be a good and obedient mistress. If you can't be trained, he will find someone who can.

 

But the bigger problem is that you have completely compartmentalized your entire emotional structure into neat little cubicles to cope with this affair... BS here, work there, MM on the side, sex up front, guilt and shame on the floor, integrity and self-respect in the closet at the back, respect for your husband and marriage in the garbage can...

 

Is there any way for you to give yourself a reality check? You are so deep in the affair fog right now you sound quite literally delusional and disconnected from yourself. Of course you feel conflicted and confused and frustrated. And exhausted. You need to connect those dots again. YOU can make it end. YOU have the power, NOT him. Baroness Schraeder in the Sound of Music says to Maria, "There's nothing more irresistible to a man than a woman who's in love with him." You're giving him unrequited love. Stop.

[ShatteredLady]

Please don't believe that someone can't be abusing you because you CHOOSE to stay. Many, many people don't leave abusive situations.

 

From your very first post you've mentioned behaviors that I consider at least priming for abuse. I know he's not hitting you but there are deeper scars. You're an OW so of course people are going to say 'just leave'. You have a husband 'just stop!'.

 

You have taken a lot on this forum. What you have NEVER taken is the slightest insinuation that you are not a great career woman. He is your boss. He controls you in a way. He says horrible things to you & then sexually touches you. You have a lot of self analysis to do.

[Cymbeline]

Really, I'm sorry to weigh in - I don't think I've contributed to your thread before - and I know you have had a hard time. But please. Read and re read these last posts by Lobe and Shattered Lady.

 

If you could project into the future and look back at yourself, you would feel a visceral quiver from your situation. From the outside you seem ridiculous ( and as a bs, I assure you I know how it feels to appear ludicrous. ). I have a thirteen year old who would appear more self aware than you at this moment. You are crackers just now. Take few large steps back and reassess as the mature career woman you might once have been ( and may be again). You might unwittingly press the self destruct button at any minute.

 

Best wishes to you.

[Messy Lady]

Yes I can see that I am letting him have control over me but I don't see it as deliberate on his part. When these "horrible things" are said, it is usually done in a joking way and that is how we are with each other - always teasing each other and having a laugh.

 

As for my work, this is an area where I know he does hold me in very high regard and not just based on what he has said to me or how he has treated me. I also have seen a very caring and supportive side of him in the way he has been with me and that has all been completely outside of any affair or push/pull.

 

I'm also not in love with him. Infatuated yes but not in love. I don't want ILYs from him though I wish he liked me as much as I like him.

 

Lobe - the litmus test? No need. I have messed up something since all thus started and he treated me exactly the same as he would any other colleague which is what I expected. I would not want preferential treatment.

[Jersey born raised]

Hi Messy,

 

I didn't realize you where back. I mean what I am about to post but first I want to state: I respect your refusal to not to discuss your husband's issues with us or MOM. (you haven't shared or hinted at them with MOM?). I have urged you to confront these issues with your husband with the aid of a professional. I urge you to do so even if your husband refuses to do so.

 

Yes he chose to have control over you. What does he truly get from this adultery. He gets to crow "YES ! AM THE GOD DAMN MAN". Don't think for a second to him this is not the same as with that girl from school who lived to score another girls BF. It is not. The sex is just proof of I AM THE MAN.

 

You are kidding yourself that your husband, you, your marriage, the adultery are not all one thing. They are one thing and cannot be separated. Grow up little girl and be an adult. I am a BS and I feel and lived your husband pain. I post not to help you per say but to help you help your BS. I am muture enough one cannot help your BS without helping you. So I take the postion if the WS is trying then two for the price isva good thing.

[Lobe]

I would not want preferential treatment.

 

But...isn't sleeping with the boss *kind of* preferential treatment?

 

How are things going today Messy?

[Jersey born raised]

thinking you are giving him control is no different then a sub in a BDSM relationship. I've had a lengthly discussion though PMs with another woman who was a sub. I was horrified for her. Jesus save us from the things she endured and saw. Yet when I asked why not her husband her response "I could never be a sub with him, marriage is about equality!". How do you respond to that?

 

I can't help thinking about Oscar Wilde's famous dinner conversation.

 

Him "you are amazing would you sleep with me for a thousand pounds"

 

Her "never". Then later "did you truly mean it?". The still later "for a thousand pounds yes"

 

Him "would you sleep with me for 5 pounds?"

 

Her "never what do you think I am.

 

Him "we have established that, what we are discussing is simply price"

 

Messy, different situation but still truth here for you. Please do so for your sake and your husbands.

[Messy Lady]

Hi Messy,

 

I didn't realize you where back. I mean what I am about to post but first I want to state: I respect your refusal to not to discuss your husband's issues with us or MOM. (you haven't shared or hinted at them with MOM?). I have urged you to confront these issues with your husband with the aid of a professional. I urge you to do so even if your husband refuses to do so.

 

Yes he chose to have control over you. What does he truly get from this adultery. He gets to crow "YES ! AM THE GOD DAMN MAN". Don't think for a second to him this is not the same as with that girl from school who lived to score another girls BF. It is not. The sex is just proof of I AM THE MAN.

 

You are kidding yourself that your husband, you, your marriage, the adultery are not all one thing. They are one thing and cannot be separated. Grow up little girl and be an adult. I am a BS and I feel and lived your husband pain. I post not to help you per say but to help you help your BS. I am muture enough one cannot help your BS without helping you. So I take the postion if the WS is trying then two for the price isva good thing.

 

Jersey - good to see you.

 

You are right. My husband and I do need to address those issues though the timing for that is not right due to circumstances outside of the affair etc as I have shared with you via PM (and not something I want mentioned on the open forum ).

 

The MM's gain from all this? I'm quite sure he gets that ego boost. He is a very confident man and has made comments similar to the ones you've suggested.

 

I do realise that nothing is in isolation but the reason I wanted (and still want) this thread to focus purely on me and the MM and not my marriage or husband is so that I can find a way of dealing with the MM so that I have control back.

[Messy Lady]

But...isn't sleeping with the boss *kind of* preferential treatment?

 

How are things going today Messy?

 

I'm ok Lobe, thank you

 

I do see the problem. Even if not getting preferential treatment, people would think I was getting preferential treatment. But the way he is with me in work is always the same regardless of whether we are on or off.

 

By the way, I have not sent him an email explaining my feelings and now would not want to do that. It would be stirring things up again plus make me weak and vulnerable again.

[elaine567]

I do realise that nothing is in isolation but the reason I wanted (and still want) this thread to focus purely on me and the MM and not my marriage or husband is so that I can find a way of dealing with the MM so that I have control back.

 

I do not see how you can have "control" as you are at his beck and call both workwise and emotionally. He holds all the cards. He can pick you up and put you down at will. I guess the only reason you are his number two is that he is still new to the job.

As you are now basically "split", and he has had more experience working there, he may need less and less of your input work-wise. Your preferential status as his number two may be at risk here, unless he feels he can keep using you.

 

Unfortunately for you, he is not some boss who is in a mess at home and "needs" the support of his OW to get him through. In that way an OW can wield some power, she may not be able to get him to leave his wife but she has the comfort of knowing that on some level he "needs" her.

Here he may need you for work to a certain extent but the longer he is in post the less he will need an experienced person showing him the ropes.

He has essentially cut you off from the sex and he is not in love with you so you do not have that lever.

You do not want your marriage ruined, so you cannot threaten to expose him by talking to HR or his wife.

If he in the future decides he wants a divorce he could easily blow up your world though.

 

I guess the next step for him, will be reassessing what you bring to his party work wise. He is your boss so he will make that decision too.

 

You have too many things you want to hold onto for you to be able to exert control here. Your husband, your marriage, your job and your MM's attention, and each of them he could blow up in an instant if he wanted to.

I do not really see how you can regain "control".

[privategal]

You did mention getting a new job. I hope you were serious about that as I think it would be a great new start.

Not only would it help leave him behind but it would Renenergize your career and get some new energy into your life.

It seems you really are unable to untangle this relationship at work with him so I think it's best to remove yourself altogether.

In the last hundreds of posts about this Messy, you've been asked 100 times about if you will go to IC.

You never do reply to that but along with getting out of your job this would be a truly healthy step for you.

2017 is just a few months away. Do you want next year to be the same mess that 2016 has been.

I have had about 3 different jobs in a highly specialized executive role in the last 5 years. My point is finding a new position is possible and for you seems like the only way out.

Please stop asking for advice and then ignoring and staying stagnant and doing nothing. Take some action you've had thousands of posters help you and dissect your situation.

Now YOU act on it, FOR YOU. YOU get one life. It's not a dress rehearsal and you are miserable. Do you really want to KEEP referring to YOURSELF as Messy Lady?

I thought you were a strong professional experienced woman? Take charge and then pick a powerful screen name like #tookcontrol

Edited September 10, 2016 by privategal

[Messy Lady]

I do not see how you can have "control" as you are at his beck and call both workwise and emotionally. He holds all the cards. He can pick you up and put you down at will. I guess the only reason you are his number two is that he is still new to the job.

As you are now basically "split", and he has had more experience working there, he may need less and less of your input work-wise. Your preferential status as his number two may be at risk here, unless he feels he can keep using you.

 

Unfortunately for you, he is not some boss who is in a mess at home and "needs" the support of his OW to get him through. In that way an OW can wield some power, she may not be able to get him to leave his wife but she has the comfort of knowing that on some level he "needs" her.

Here he may need you for work to a certain extent but the longer he is in post the less he will need an experienced person showing him the ropes.

He has essentially cut you off from the sex and he is not in love with you so you do not have that lever.

You do not want your marriage ruined, so you cannot threaten to expose him by talking to HR or his wife.

If he in the future decides he wants a divorce he could easily blow up your world though.

 

I guess the next step for him, will be reassessing what you bring to his party work wise. He is your boss so he will make that decision too.

 

You have too many things you want to hold onto for you to be able to exert control here. Your husband, your marriage, your job and your MM's attention, and each of them he could blow up in an instant if he wanted to.

I do not really see how you can regain "control".

 

Whilst beck and call emotionally, I am not at his beck and call in terms of work! Your suggestion that I am only number two because he is new to the job is very wrong too. We may be "split" but he is talking of the projects he wants me to work on just he did before. He has never needed me to show him the ropes either.

 

To suggest that I want to wield some power over him is also wrong. I don't know what makes you think this is was I want. Plus even if I wasn't married, I wouldn't go running to HR or his wife. Telling tales is not my style. There is also absolutely no way he would ever decide to divorce. I have always known that.

 

I bring plenty to the table work wise. I'm tired of the repeated suggestions in my threads about MM and I in terms of work. There is absolutely no issue there. He values my work highly and even on that day when we last "split" he told me not to dare leave the company (and not said in a controlling way before anybody jumps on that bandwagon).

[Messy Lady]

You did mention getting a new job. I hope you were serious about that as I think it would be a great new start.

Not only would it help leave him behind but it would Renenergize your career and get some new energy into your life.

It seems you really are unable to untangle this relationship at work with him so I think it's best to remove yourself altogether.

In the last hundreds of posts about this Messy, you've been asked 100 times about if you will go to IC.

You never do reply to that but along with getting out of your job this would be a truly healthy step for you.

2017 is just a few months away. Do you want next year to be the same mess that 2016 has been.

I have had about 3 different jobs in a highly specialized executive role in the last 5 years. My point is finding a new position is possible and for you seems like the only way out.

Please stop asking for advice and then ignoring and staying stagnant and doing nothing. Take some action you've had thousands of posters help you and dissect your situation.

Now YOU act on it, FOR YOU. YOU get one life. It's not a dress rehearsal and you are miserable. Do you really want to KEEP referring to YOURSELF as Messy Lady?

I thought you were a strong professional experienced woman? Take charge and then pick a powerful screen name like #tookcontrol

 

Jobs at my level in my sector rarely come up but I am looking to see if anything of interest comes up.

 

As for IC, it's as if everybody here thinks I'm a quivering wreck because of this man. I'm not.

 

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but in my country you don't go running for IC every time something in your life goes wrong. You get on with it and deal with it yourself.

[elaine567]

Whilst beck and call emotionally, I am not at his beck and call in terms of work! Your suggestion that I am only number two because he is new to the job is very wrong too. We may be "split" but he is talking of the projects he wants me to work on just he did before. He has never needed me to show him the ropes either.

 

To suggest that I want to wield some power over him is also wrong. I don't know what makes you think this is was I want. Plus even if I wasn't married, I wouldn't go running to HR or his wife. Telling tales is not my style. There is also absolutely no way he would ever decide to divorce. I have always known that.

 

I bring plenty to the table work wise. I'm tired of the repeated suggestions in my threads about MM and I in terms of work. There is absolutely no issue there. He values my work highly and even on that day when we last "split" he told me not to dare leave the company (and not said in a controlling way before anybody jumps on that bandwagon).

 

You said you wanted "control back", I merely listed the ways which you may win "control back", but in your situation they are not suitable as I said, because you are in such a weak position as regards this MM.

[Messy Lady]

You said you wanted "control back", I merely listed the ways which you may win "control back", but in your situation they are not suitable as I said, because you are in such a weak position as regards this MM.

 

And I also explained how very wrong many of your assumptions were. I am not in a weak position at all in respect of my work.

[privategal]

Jobs at my level in my sector rarely come up but I am looking to see if anything of interest comes up.

 

As for IC, it's as if everybody here thinks I'm a quivering wreck because of this man. I'm not.

 

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but in my country you don't go running for IC every time something in your life goes wrong. You get on with it and deal with it yourself.

 

 

Are you proud of how you've been dealing with it?

Have you made progress?

How's it working out for you?

Also it's extremely insulting for you to imply that people who go to IC are a quivering mess.

Actually they are brave empowered people who have the courage to make things better.

Anyways, I'm out.

I think you will just continue to debate and argue and stay stuck.

It's so exhausting to see you in the exact same place month after month and all you do is get defensive and argue. Good luck with your life.

[Messy Lady]

Also it's extremely insulting for you to imply that people who go to IC are a quivering mess.

Actually they are brave empowered people who have the courage to make things better.

 

You are right to call me out on this. I'm sorry for saying something like this and I agree, going to IC can be a sign of character.

 

However I do not see myself as someone who needs IC the way so many here claim. The point I tried to make (so badly) was that I'm functioning well and am happy and successful in so many aspects of my life yet I get the impression here that people think I'm not coping at all with anything.