Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 I agree with this. A lot of the affair stories we usually hear about involves one of the parties being vulnerable. Looking back at my affair when I was 23 my XMM actually said to me 'gosh, you really don't have anyone do you, you are completely on your own in this world' He seemed quite happy that I was. Now I'm older I see that he was pleased as it made it easier for him to take advantage and cheat on his wife as he saw that I had no-one to look out for me. Married men who have affairs are sexual predators. I don't think my husband was a "sexual predator" he merely took advantage of a convenient opportunity. His xOW openly flirted with him and dropped tonnes of sexual innuendo letting him know she was into him long before he ever made a move - his AP was as much a willing participant as my WH. She took a gamble on a married man and lived to regret it - just because change your mind about making a bad decision that doesn't make it OK to label the man a "sexual predator" any more than it makes her "loose" or a "desperate wh*re." A selfish opportunistic pig looking for ego kibbles, yes, but predator? Not the word I'd use for anyone other than serial cheaters who have emotionless sex with vulnerable women. 4
Furious Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Maybe, but if they look hard enough, there is always some needy, vulnerable person around who is just so grateful for the attention, any attention. The office "hottie" may be out of his league, but the shy and plainer backroom girl who is having no luck dating anyone or who is in a dead end marriage, may be ripe for the picking. Sometimes, it's an affair partner who has been a serial OM/OM, who researches their potential target in advance as to how to either proceed or not with someone in their sight. There are some people who prefer to be affair partners as a lifestyle choice. Not all affairs partners are vulnerable victims. There are vulnerable people who are targeted, sometimes it's a married person and sometimes it's a single person. Most often, a WS who goes for single people, it's not their first affair. It's disturbing how often single women who's affair ends admit they discovered that married partner had previous affairs. Infidelity is more diverse and complicated than just asking how many divorce and marry the affair partner. It's a simplistic assumption that it's simply leaving one for another, odds are there are many skeletons in the closet for it to be cut and dried when deception in it's many layers are examined. 5
wmacbride Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Probably a necessary but not sufficient condition. I'm guessing trolls have a hard time finding APs - unless they own film studios, luxury yachts or recording companies.... Physical appearance really has nothing to do with whether or not someone will cheat. It might make it easier to find someone, but for some women and men, the most important characteristic in a relationship partner is that they are married, not their appearance. 3
wmacbride Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 I agree with this. A lot of the affair stories we usually hear about involves one of the parties being vulnerable. Looking back at my affair when I was 23 my XMM actually said to me 'gosh, you really don't have anyone do you, you are completely on your own in this world' He seemed quite happy that I was. Now I'm older I see that he was pleased as it made it easier for him to take advantage and cheat on his wife as he saw that I had no-one to look out for me. Married men who have affairs are sexual predators. Some may be predators for sure, and seek out vulnerable women. the same is true for women Some married women seek out men who are in a bad place. The same is also true for the ow/om. Some deliberately seek out mw/mm as that is their preferred relationship choice. 5
Katyp Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 I don't think my husband was a "sexual predator" he merely took advantage of a convenient opportunity. His xOW openly flirted with him and dropped tonnes of sexual innuendo letting him know she was into him long before he ever made a move - his AP was as much a willing participant as my WH. She took a gamble on a married man and lived to regret it - just because change your mind about making a bad decision that doesn't make it OK to label the man a "sexual predator" any more than it makes her "loose" or a "desperate wh*re." A selfish opportunistic pig looking for ego kibbles, yes, but predator? Not the word I'd use for anyone other than serial cheaters who have emotionless sex with vulnerable women. MM who chase vulnerable women for affairs are. Although I have never seen myself as vulnerable and never will (not that I plan to have another A as I never ever would). Its just I have read a lot of posts on here and its usually the woman saying how vulnerable alone she was/is at the time and had/has no-one else to turn to etc. It never occurred to me that that dynamic was going on until reading all those posts where different women were all saying the same thing. 2
wmacbride Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 MM who chase vulnerable women for affairs are. Although I have never seen myself as vulnerable and never will (not that I plan to have another A as I never ever would). Its just I have read a lot of posts on here and its usually the woman saying how vulnerable alone she was/is at the time and had/has no-one else to turn to etc. It never occurred to me that that dynamic was going on until reading all those posts where different women were all saying the same thing. I suppose, when it comes right down to it, everyone has issues of some sort or another. Some men and women, married or single, are more than willing to exploit that to have their needs met, whatever they may be. 2
Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 MM who chase vulnerable women for affairs are. Which is what I said... lol Not the word I'd use for anyone other than serial cheaters who have emotionless sex with vulnerable women. 4
Arieswoman Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 w macbride #206 I suppose, when it comes right down to it, everyone has issues of some sort or another. Some men and women, married or single, are more than willing to exploit that to have their needs met, whatever they may be. ^^^ this is very true. However, it might be fair to also say that in some (not all) affairs there is an unequal power dynamic. This is usually based on status/money/perceived power. I've worked in healthcare for years and can tell you that in a hospital situation it is far more common for a married male doctor/consultant to have an affair with a nurse, than a married female doctor to have an affair with a porter/janitor ! 2
MissG Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 I have heard multiple stories (friends, colleagues, family members) about MM leaving for OW. Most cases I am aware of involve single OW and MM. In many cases, the M was long-term (15-20 yrs), children were either teenagers or already out of the house. Never heard of any MM leaving a SAHM with preschoolers or elementary school kids. But that's just my experience. My own case is similar, but I am still in the middle of it. MM ist not divorced (yet), although they are planning on getting it done, not considering themselves a couple any longer (according to him, but what do I know....). They still live together, though, under the same roof, and for me there's no way to verify anything he's saying. I know he loves me, though. He treats me well. We spend a LOT of time together. I am aware, though, that this is only possible, because (1) he has his own business and therefore a flexible schedule and the necessary funds, (2) I travel a lot for business (and he joins me for about 80% of my trips), (3) BW has a busy (work and personal) schedule as well (and travels, too), (4) his only child is already in college in a different state, and (5) I have no kids. I understand that if the circumstances were different (or even if just one of those factors was different), we wouldn't be able to spend so much time together, and maybe that's the only reason why it has worked for us long-term (+3 years). If we (or one of us) had a more traditional lifestyle, we might have fallen out of love by now, possibly for "scheduling reasons" (meaning that if we all had a 9-5 work schedule, school-aged children at home, maybe a stay-at-home BW, etc. - no way we could make enough time to grow closer - how do people pull that off anyways?). So yes - I am aware of this, trying not to romanticize it too much. It just works, because it is easy enough. And I do NOT mean that this is the only reason, don't get me wrong. We WANT to be together, there's love and affection and attachment, and every day routines, and arguments, and chores, and all that jazz. I am just trying to keep it real. Love is sometimes not enough. You need to make it work in reality, and sometimes the circumstances just won't allow you to. And sometimes the circumstances make it easy enough (which I am thankful for, btw). I sometimes wonder how we would handle our R if we did have those obstacles to deal with. Would we still be together? Would the lovey-romantic (limerence) feelings fade more quickly? How often would we see each other? Would he be committed to his M more, if he had multiple kids, or younger kids, still living at home? Would he love his W more, if he saw her on a more regular basis? Would they be closer if they were in a different situation? (He says no, they would not, they've not been a very romantic couple for more than 2 decades, but I AM in fact his first AP ---- but again - his words) I am really good at going with the flow, so I am not holding my breath. I do know that we are a good match, we think alike, the physical aspects of the R are still great, we have the same interests, the same education, pretty much the same roots and upbringing, a similar family-of-origin situation, and so far everything is lovely. Even after 3 years. We have always talked about a "real" future together, and - allegedly, according to him - they're working out the details for D, BW is - apparently - aware of the situation and she's OK with it. They have come to the same conclusion together. D will be happening. I put "allegedly" in bold, because that's just his side of the story, and even though I believe/trust him (and I know he would not intentionally hurt me), I will never KNOW 100% (until D has been filed) if he's just day-dreaming, stringing me along, or actually speaking the truth. He says BW is aware of the affair. She doesn't seem to care much, though. But again, that's just the general impression I get when we talk about it. I am NOT holding my breath, but he tells me on a daily basis that he is working it out (his business is her business to a certain extent; she owns some of the biz assets, and of course it's marital property anyways), and they are both working on it. And I respect that. I am not impatient, and I have been quite happy with the situation the way it is. If our A should turn into something (even more) serious, that'll be a change, but I think a change into a positive direction. I am not pushing it. I am in fact quite apprehensive, if I think about living with another person, even a loved one, because I am simply not used to it. And that is probably the main reason why I am "cool" with it either way. What I am not cool with, is "fibbing". Anything else, I can deal with. But he knows that, and I hope he respects that, too. That's my story, just wanted to share. Things might change during the course of this year. Or maybe they won't. I guess my personal summary (of relationships and affairs in general) is that romance and in-love-feelings are not always enough. The circumstances must be right, too. For all of us: kids (if any), WS, BS and AP I hope nobody got offended. I know there are several BS here on this board, I just wanted to provide a little glimpse into my OW life. I apologize, if I triggered any negative feelings in anyone. Not my intention. Thanks for reading!
Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 I hope nobody got offended. I know there are several BS here on this board, I just wanted to provide a little glimpse into my OW life. I apologize, if I triggered any negative feelings in anyone. Not my intention. Thanks for reading! This is the OW/OM board so if any BSs are in here it's at our own risk lol I appreciate how candid you are about the possibility your MM might be leading you down the garden path blindly towards an indefinite future. I know that there are a lot of marriages especially within circles of affluent men where the wife tolerates (and also initiates her own) affairs but both stay in the marriage because it's easier to sustain their standard of living and social status than divorcing. (I mean Prince Charles and Camille Parker-Bowles were not very sneaky at all about their affair before or during his marriage to Diana... lol) Do you want to have a "normal" marriage with this man or do you think you could be the Camille? Have you ever thought about contacting his BW to confirm if there is a D in progress? Or would you rather not know?
MissG Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 This is the OW/OM board so if any BSs are in here it's at our own risk lol I appreciate how candid you are about the possibility your MM might be leading you down the garden path blindly towards an indefinite future. I know that there are a lot of marriages especially within circles of affluent men where the wife tolerates (and also initiates her own) affairs but both stay in the marriage because it's easier to sustain their standard of living and social status than divorcing. (I mean Prince Charles and Camille Parker-Bowles were not very sneaky at all about their affair before or during his marriage to Diana... lol) Do you want to have a "normal" marriage with this man or do you think you could be the Camille? Have you ever thought about contacting his BW to confirm if there is a D in progress? Or would you rather not know? I would LIKE to know, but I'd never contact her. I would feel like I'm overstepping my boundaries there. My impression: She either knows (because it's very obvious.....she seems indifferent), or/and has her own A (he doesn't think so, though), or - like you said (thanks for that, food for though, I never considered this) - she tolerates it, because they have an (unspoken) agreement about an open M. Could be. But - according to him - that's not the case, either. But who knows..... I do think we could have a successful official R or M, but I've been single for a long time, and not 100% sure I could get used to it. I can say that I would definitely "like" to get used to it. If that makes any sense. Also - my being single - is more a "being single" on paper, as we are pretty much almost always together anyways. Incl spending nights together and such, so it's almost like living together. BUT in the back of my head I know I can give up on it anytime, because I'm "single". Makes me feel independent and somehow "safe". I think I was the most comfortable in the beginning, when it was just that, a simple A, with no expectations. Both parties knew what to expect, and I was happy with it. As soon as he started the D talk a while ago, I was like "is this really happening/true/honest/sincere?" --- and I've been thinking this way ever since ..... Feelings have developed on my end, big time, I haven't been dating anybody else for a couple of years now, I'm just not interested. And I can't deny I have different expectations now. That all started with the D talk on his part. Because "that's what he wants." - and now I can see it, too. A life together. Even though I look at the future with apprehension.
Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 MissG, you're far more patient than I ever could be lol. WH says that he future faked with his xOW, but that she initiated it. Things like, Her: "One day, when we can be together, we will live in X house and do A B and C together..." Him: "While we're naked... ha ha..." Honestly, after 3 years, I'm not sure I'd continue to wait. Do you ever contemplate giving him an ultimatum? 3
MissG Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 MissG, you're far more patient than I ever could be lol. WH says that he future faked with his xOW, but that she initiated it. Things like, Her: "One day, when we can be together, we will live in X house and do A B and C together..." Him: "While we're naked... ha ha..." Honestly, after 3 years, I'm not sure I'd continue to wait. Do you ever contemplate giving him an ultimatum? No. I haven't. My thinking process has been as follows: he needs to do what he needs to do; I'm not a saint and I do get angry, but I understand where he's coming from. An ultimatum will either end us, or them, just at a faster pace. I'd be much more concerned about their M ending rather than us ending, subsequent to an ultimatum. If we end, we're done. I'd be heart broken but it would be over, done. If they end, though, we are together - and I will always feel like I pressured him into making a decision. I don't want to feel that way. Never.
Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 I will always feel like I pressured him into making a decision. I can't remember whose thread it was, but one of the ladies here said she didn't want to pressure her MM because she wasn't sure he would pick her. Perhaps wise as the odds aren't really in the AP's corner. Regardless, you seem to have come to terms with the relationship you have with your MM in a very realistic sort of way. I think where most OW end up shooting themselves in the foot is by getting swept away only to be deeply disappointed and unsatisfied with how actions do not match words. The BS in me says, "Call his wife - she deserves to know!" and the supportive me says, "You deserve more than crumbs, because even if they are plentiful they are still crumbs..." but either way, thanks for your contributions - it's not often I see someone so level-headed and rational about their A. Olivkazp, would you be able to exist in a relationship like MissG?
elaine567 Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Miss G Read - 4.5 year affair, he promised the world, but went NC as soon as his wife found out. It is a common story unfortunately. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/other-man-woman/592642-anyone-had-their-affair-relationship-end-do-contact-wife 1
lemondrop21 Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 MissG, you're far more patient than I ever could be lol. WH says that he future faked with his xOW, but that she initiated it. Things like, Her: "One day, when we can be together, we will live in X house and do A B and C together..." Him: "While we're naked... ha ha..." Honestly, after 3 years, I'm not sure I'd continue to wait. Do you ever contemplate giving him an ultimatum? Ew, wow. To me, that isn't even future faking on your WS's part, that sounds more like deflecting/keeping things lighthearted to me. 2
MissG Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Miss G Read - 4.5 year affair, he promised the world, but went NC as soon as his wife found out. It is a common story unfortunately. http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/other-man-woman/592642-anyone-had-their-affair-relationship-end-do-contact-wife Yikes. What a story! Yeah, no - we don't exchange phone numbers of family members...Lol. Jk. Seriously though, that's a horrible story. If he didn't mean it, why tell ow he wants a future with her? I guess I always assume that people say what they mean and vice versa. That's what I'm living by, so I automatically assume it applies to everyone. WRONG! However, I know deep in my heart that he wants to be with me. Implementing the plan? Different story. I'm not going to push the agenda, though. Because you know what they say - be careful what you wish for. Plus - in reality, there wouldn't be much of a difference between "officially together" and what we currently have. I don't NEED to be married. I have a demanding job. I have my own money, home paid off, no debt, I'm fine. So just "being" in this R the way it is right now has been good. But you're all right, ladies! I have NO clue what would happen if she found out (provided she doesn't know yet) and decided to demand counseling and working on the M. I don't know if I would be history.
Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Ew, wow. To me, that isn't even future faking on your WS's part, that sounds more like deflecting/keeping things lighthearted to me. Their whole email/message exchange was weird. They had one long huge never ending email convo that didn't get properly deleted so of course I read it when I found it. Probably dumb on my part - there are parts I wish I could un-read - but it was very insightful. I grant that my WH's comment was ew, but her response to it was something like "and you'll have an enormous erection... I love you sweetie :love:" That was the nature of their relationship - high intensity, sexually charged... I am not going to say his xOW was to blame for the A because she was an irresistible temptress who lured him away from me, but she was throwing her cat at him pretty hard. Obviously my WH should have could have ought to have said no, but he didn't really seek vulnerable prey and take advantage of her. There was a part where they said they had never felt more like they were their real selves with anyone before - I'm not sure how I'd feel if my "real self" was either of the people writing those notes... He says now that he misses their "friendship" they could have had before it turned sexual but I'm not entirely sure they really had much in common. 1
waterwoman Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 To address the OP.... what does 'wrong person' mean? There are many potential 'right' spouses and probably a lot more 'wrong' ones. Not just one right one- that is simply infantile. Sorry. 1
MissG Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Their whole email/message exchange was weird. They had one long huge never ending email convo that didn't get properly deleted so of course I read it when I found it. Probably dumb on my part - there are parts I wish I could un-read - but it was very insightful. I grant that my WH's comment was ew, but her response to it was something like "and you'll have an enormous erection... I love you sweetie :love:" That was the nature of their relationship - high intensity, sexually charged... I am not going to say his xOW was to blame for the A because she was an irresistible temptress who lured him away from me, but she was throwing her cat at him pretty hard. Obviously my WH should have could have ought to have said no, but he didn't really seek vulnerable prey and take advantage of her. There was a part where they said they had never felt more like they were their real selves with anyone before - I'm not sure how I'd feel if my "real self" was either of the people writing those notes... He says now that he misses their "friendship" they could have had before it turned sexual but I'm not entirely sure they really had much in common. Exchanges of that kind are common in "new" relationships. In this case it was a affair, but still..... Flirtatious, sex-charged convos are frequent when you're with somebody new. How long were they in an A? 1
Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Exchanges of that kind are common in "new" relationships. In this case it was a affair, but still..... Flirtatious, sex-charged convos are frequent when you're with somebody new. How long were they in an A? Yup, totally common in "new" relationships between single people and in healthy "old" marriages, but usually not in "just friendships" lol It was about 9 months, give or take, as WH's recollection of the actual first time they met on purpose for lunch as opposed to just chatting her up when they were conveniently both at the lunch wagon more and more regularly isn't clear. I feel like this thread has been somewhat hijacked though, so in keeping to the OP's question about how often the AP and WS end up happily ever after, I'll throw out some statistics. According to a few sources, most affairs peter out once the WS leaves the BS and the relationship goes "public" and will run their course in 6 - 24 months, most of those ending around the 6 month mark. Of those, approximately 3% of affairs will end up in marriage, on which there is a 60% - 75% divorce rate to be considered when it comes to second marriages, which means that statistically, less than 1% of affairs will end up as successful long term marriages. This is of course information gathered from a select number of willing participants and I'm not sure how many people whose relationships started as affairs share that information freely so it could be slightly higher but I doubt it would break the 5% mark. In terms of "marrying the wrong person" there are times when this happens or the relationship runs its course or one person comes out as gay or becomes a born again Christian or decides they can't be with someone who would vote for Trump and often, when married people can't reconcile those differences... they file for divorce. In the case of "exit" affairs, what ends the relationship isn't necessarily that they think they have found a "better" partner but is often merely the realization that if they were unhappy enough to have an affair, the marriage should end. You will note that of the people who find themselves being the "exit" AP, if you skim through these boards you will find many who discover that they were merely a lifeline and once the WS ends the marriage and is free to date anyone, they quickly dump the AP and do just that. In a nutshell, while it is possible for APs and their WSs to live happily ever after, it is not probable, and only the AP can decide how long they want to wait to find out if they are the bleak norm or the rare exception. 1
Author olivkazp Posted August 25, 2016 Author Posted August 25, 2016 Guys.... His wife messaged me and asks for a meeting, what should I do??!!
Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Guys.... His wife messaged me and asks for a meeting, what should I do??!! I'm assuming she wants to find out what's been going on with the two of you. It's up to you if you are willing to speak with her - are you afraid she's going to physically harm you? Can you ask her what it's about? It might be safer for you guys to communicate in writing from a safe distance before meeting or talking - you'll both be better able to monitor your responses as well as have a paper trail should things turn ugly...
goodyblue Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 I'm assuming she wants to find out what's been going on with the two of you. It's up to you if you are willing to speak with her - are you afraid she's going to physically harm you? Can you ask her what it's about? It might be safer for you guys to communicate in writing from a safe distance before meeting or talking - you'll both be better able to monitor your responses as well as have a paper trail should things turn ugly... Look, I was OW so take it for what it's worth but... This is HIS **** show. You don't have to be in the middle of this bull****. Let HIM answer the questions. You don't know her at all! She could be the next Betty Broderick. Just back away slowly and try not to make any sudden moves 2
Lobe Posted August 25, 2016 Posted August 25, 2016 Look, I was OW so take it for what it's worth but... This is HIS **** show. You don't have to be in the middle of this bull****. Let HIM answer the questions. You don't know her at all! She could be the next Betty Broderick. Just back away slowly and try not to make any sudden moves I think she wants him back and wants to help raise the baby... she WANTS to be in the sh*t show... 2
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