I am dating a man child

[Els]

 

I don't really disagree with what you say, in general. Except if you are right then he should do the same amount of housework and the OP should pay half the mortgage.

 

What? No. The house is solely in his name. At the end of the mortgage payment he gets a house and she gets nothing, especially if she lives in a place where de facto Rs are not legally recognized. That is a terrible idea.

[Grisho]

What? No. The house is solely in his name. At the end of the mortgage payment he gets a house and she gets nothing, especially if she lives in a place where de facto Rs are not legally recognized. That is a terrible idea.

 

I want to also add that it's simply not an idea rooted in reality. We do not have a universal income that everyone is paid. People are paid differently, and it has little to do with how hard they work, how manual their labour is etc. Pay is incidental to the work in the home. Financial contribution can never be equal amonst a lot of people in relationships. Work in the home can, and should always, be equal.

[Els]

I want to also add that it's simply not an idea rooted in reality. We do not have a universal income that everyone is paid. People are paid differently, and it has little to do with how hard they work, how manual their labour is etc. Pay is incidental to the work in the home. Financial contribution can never be equal amonst a lot of people in relationships. Work in the home can, and should always, be equal.

 

If the OP were literally a housewife (as in, not working at all and not contributing at all financially) then I don't think it's a stretch to expect that she will be doing all the housework. But she clearly isn't (in fact, even before she clarified she was working 50 hour weeks, her opening post said she had come back from work, so we all knew she wasn't a housewife, not sure why bachdude kept going on about that). So yeah, agreed in her case they should be splitting the housework.

[Grisho]

If the OP were literally a housewife (as in, not working at all and not contributing at all financially) then I don't think it's a stretch to expect that she will be doing all the housework. But she clearly isn't (in fact, even before she clarified she was working 50 hour weeks, her opening post said she had come back from work, so we all knew she wasn't a housewife, not sure why bachdude kept going on about that). So yeah, agreed in her case they should be splitting the housework.

 

I don't think financial contributions have anything to do with housework. Regardless of the financial split, I expect all parties in the home to share the housework willingly.

[Els]

I don't think financial contributions have anything to do with housework. Regardless of the financial split, I expect all parties in the home to share the housework willingly.

 

I think the arrangement between housewives and their partners is that the housewife will take care of all the household chores because they spend zero hours working. In that case I think it is a fair distribution of labor because housework is their 'job'. If both partners are working full time I agree with you - regardless of the financial split housework needs to be shared.

[bachdude]

What? No. The house is solely in his name. At the end of the mortgage payment he gets a house and she gets nothing, especially if she lives in a place where de facto Rs are not legally recognized. That is a terrible idea.

 

 

Renters have to cover the cost of the landlord, including any mortgage and property taxes, plus extra to make a profit.

[bachdude]

I think the arrangement between housewives and their partners is that the housewife will take care of all the household chores because they spend zero hours working. In that case I think it is a fair distribution of labor because housework is their 'job'. If both partners are working full time I agree with you - regardless of the financial split housework needs to be shared.

 

 

And I think we are coming to an agreement!

[Gaeta]

I would like to know if OP and her boyfriend are from the same culture?

 

I don't mean any disrespect but he sounds like a typical Italian man and his mom a typical Italian mother.

 

If OP's boyfriend is from a culture where the normality is to not do house chores than she is starting a war she will never win as her BF is over 30 and it's too late to reprogram him.

 

I suggest you get a cleaning lady, you both pay, to come in and do the big stuff like cleaning bathroom, kitchen, floors.

[bachdude]

If the OP were literally a housewife (as in, not working at all and not contributing at all financially) then I don't think it's a stretch to expect that she will be doing all the housework. But she clearly isn't (in fact, even before she clarified she was working 50 hour weeks, her opening post said she had come back from work, so we all knew she wasn't a housewife, not sure why bachdude kept going on about that). So yeah, agreed in her case they should be splitting the housework.

Because she could have been working part time and he 60 hours. And I didn't want to rule out other scenarios too, like helping her with student loans, paying her bills, helping put her through school, etc etc.

 

 

I just wanted more info.

[Els]

Renters have to cover the cost of the landlord, including any mortgage and property taxes, plus extra to make a profit.

 

I don't know where you live, but everywhere I have lived, a mortgage costs significantly more than rental for a comparable house. It is extremely rare for rental to cover the cost of a mortgage here. Plus the landlord is liable for any maintenance or repairs of the property, and renters most certainly do not pay property taxes.

 

That is why if a couple was living together while the mortgage was being paid, we consider the house to be 'relationship property' here and after a separation it will be divided according to each partners contributions. It's only fair. Of course, this doesn't necessarily apply where the OP lives, hence my advise for caution.

[Grisho]

I think the arrangement between housewives and their partners is that the housewife will take care of all the household chores because they spend zero hours working. In that case I think it is a fair distribution of labor because housework is their 'job'. If both partners are working full time I agree with you - regardless of the financial split housework needs to be shared.

 

I'd like to think the agreement is something else - she is still working, but that may constitute studying, or volunteering in the community, or looking after children, or be job searchinge etc etc. People who do not have the traditional model of employment are always busy with things to do, in my experience, and none of them care to, or have time to, devote their days to housework. In any case, as I've mentioned a few times, sharing housework is about much more than physical labour and not beinf lazy whilst at home. It's a demonstration of teamwork, of communication, of sharing, of support, of caring for one's spouse and the home...

[Els]

I'd like to think the agreement is something else - she is still working, but that may constitute studying, or volunteering in the community, or looking after children, or be job searchinge etc etc. People who do not have the traditional model of employment are always busy with things to do, in my experience, and none of them care to, or have time to, devote their days to housework. In any case, as I've mentioned a few times, sharing housework is about much more than physical labour and not beinf lazy whilst at home. It's a demonstration of teamwork, of communication, of sharing, of support, of caring for one's spouse and the home...

 

I grew up knowing quite a few housewives - they handled everything in the house while their husbands were the sole breadwinner and worked long hours to support the family. It seemed to work for them, so I wouldn't necessarily knock it. Given that those guys were working 16 hours a day to support the family, it seems a bit much to expect them to do housework at the end of the day. If that had been expected, I doubt things would have worked out so well for them.

 

Again, this isn't relevant to the OP though.

[Gaeta]

. It's a demonstration of teamwork, of communication, of sharing, of support, of caring for one's spouse and the home...

 

In your world and in mine but there are cultures or families it's not and it's imposible to re-educate these people. The way to solve it is to find a solution that will not create tension and resentment.

 

My BF and l went to dinner at my brother. We were probably 15 at the table. My brother is 49 yo. After dinner he told his wife to relax and enjoy the company and he cleaned up the table and kitchen on his own. He did it because our parents raised my brothers that way and all of them are very helpful in their house.

 

Now, my boyfriend who is from another culture and was raised differently did not view my brother as helpful, he viewed him as being my SIL servant because in his culture men don't participate in house chores, not only they don't participate but they don't stick around. On cleaning day their mother or wife tell men to get out of the house, to get out of their way, for cleaning day.

 

So what am l gonna do? Am l going to try to change a 49 yo man? Am l going to fight something that is ingrained in him since he is a little boy? No. I'm going to negociate and meet in the middle where we both won't feel resentful.

 

In business we say a good contract is one where both parties feel they gave up on a little something.

[Grisho]

I grew up knowing quite a few housewives - they handled everything in the house while their husbands were the sole breadwinner and worked long hours to support the family. It seemed to work for them, so I wouldn't necessarily knock it. Given that those guys were working 16 hours a day to support the family, it seems a bit much to expect them to do housework at the end of the day. If that had been expected, I doubt things would have worked out so well for them.

 

Again, this isn't relevant to the OP though.

 

I think anyone working 16 hour days needs to urgently seek other employment, especially those with spouses and/or kids. One cannot work 16 hour days and have a healthy relationship with anyone in one's life.

 

I think plenty of old-fashioned relationships functioned well for men, because women were submissive, quiet and inferior. They are no model for partners with equal status, and no model for children to learn from.

 

I work long hours. I wouldn't dream of not helping at home, lording it lazily over others whilst they work. I wouldn't treat my spouse in such a derogatory way, wouldn't want to indulge my ego like that (like I'm on an elevated platform and they are just my servant, not a valued partner I want to share experiences and time with), wouldn't treat friends or family like that when in their homes, and welcome the active part of doing jobs in the home because health is very important.

 

Lest we forget, a huge problem in this modern world of ours are those who never look after their health by being active and caring about fitness.

[bachdude]

I think anyone working 16 hour days needs to urgently seek other employment, especially those with spouses and/or kids. One cannot work 16 hour days and have a healthy relationship with anyone in one's life.

 

I think plenty of old-fashioned relationships functioned well for men, because women were submissive, quiet and inferior. They are no model for partners with equal status, and no model for children to learn from.

 

I work long hours. I wouldn't dream of not helping at home, lording it lazily over others whilst they work. I wouldn't treat my spouse in such a derogatory way, wouldn't want to indulge my ego like that (like I'm on an elevated platform and they are just my servant, not a valued partner I want to share experiences and time with), wouldn't treat friends or family like that when in their homes, and welcome the active part of doing jobs in the home because health is very important.

 

Lest we forget, a huge problem in this modern world of ours are those who never look after their health by being active and caring about fitness.

 

 

I think there are many that would love not to work that long but have no choice.

 

 

Overall I find your post, while having very valid points, overly ideological and cookie cutter (I.e. All people in the traditional roles regarding housework have this attitude, etc.).

[anna121]

I'd like to think the agreement is something else - she is still working, but that may constitute studying, or volunteering in the community, or looking after children, or be job searchinge etc etc. People who do not have the traditional model of employment are always busy with things to do, in my experience, and none of them care to, or have time to, devote their days to housework. In any case, as I've mentioned a few times, sharing housework is about much more than physical labour and not beinf lazy whilst at home. It's a demonstration of teamwork, of communication, of sharing, of support, of caring for one's spouse and the home...

 

Your musing about how the person who does no remunerative work outside the home is filling his or her hours is just that - speculation.

 

The person (man OR woman) may well be "busy" but if those activities do not directly contribute to the well-being of the household (if, for example, they are more externally directed such as volunteer work) then that creates an imbalance and the working partner would be entirely justified in raising an objection. If he or she does not object, of course, that is another matter.

 

Now, I certainly don't think that it is inappropriate to expect someone working full-time to contribute to the upkeep of the home but the idea that they are obligated to contribute *just as much effort* as the person not working for remuneration is breathtaking.

[bachdude]

I don't know where you live, but everywhere I have lived, a mortgage costs significantly more than rental for a comparable house. It is extremely rare for rental to cover the cost of a mortgage here. Plus the landlord is liable for any maintenance or repairs of the property, and renters most certainly do not pay property taxes.

 

That is why if a couple was living together while the mortgage was being paid, we consider the house to be 'relationship property' here and after a separation it will be divided according to each partners contributions. It's only fair. Of course, this doesn't necessarily apply where the OP lives, hence my advise for caution.

 

 

Ok those are good points.

[anna121]

I'd like to think the agreement is something else - she is still working, but that may constitute studying, or volunteering in the community, or looking after children, or be job searchinge etc etc. People who do not have the traditional model of employment are always busy with things to do, in my experience, and none of them care to, or have time to, devote their days to housework. In any case, as I've mentioned a few times, sharing housework is about much more than physical labour and not beinf lazy whilst at home. It's a demonstration of teamwork, of communication, of sharing, of support, of caring for one's spouse and the home...

 

But persons in relationships can demonstrate those values and qualities in all sorts of ways other than a 50-50 division of household labour.

[Grisho]

But persons in relationships can demonstrate those values and qualities in all sorts of ways other than a 50-50 division of household labour.

 

They must also demonstrate those values in other ways, too. It isn't either/or, I'm afraid. There are no short-cuts where healthy relationships are concerned. Relationships take lots of teamwork. The upkeep of the home is a key point of resentment for loads of women who feel abused and used by their spouses. Every happy relationship I know involves 2 partners who willingly do chores, don't avert their eyes from chores that need doing, and don't whinge about being tired to try to escape their duty to do chores.

[Gaeta]

They must also demonstrate those values in other ways, too. It isn't either/or, I'm afraid. There are no short-cuts where healthy relationships are concerned. Relationships take lots of teamwork. The upkeep of the home is a key point of resentment for loads of women who feel abused and used by their spouses. Every happy relationship I know involves 2 partners who willingly do chores, don't avert their eyes from chores that need doing, and don't whinge about being tired to try to escape their duty to do chores.

May l ask how old you are? I find you very one dimensional in your ideas of what is sharing in a home. Many men contribute to the relationship without cleaning the toilet. I had 2 long term relationships and they were not the type of men to iron and clean inside the fridge and they were far from being lazy. They did all the yard work, pool work, the mechanics and maintenance on both cars, they did all the elbow work like painting, organizing garage, etc. While i cleaned up after dinner they didn't sit there, they were out and about participating "in their way" to our household.

[Els]

I think anyone working 16 hour days needs to urgently seek other employment, especially those with spouses and/or kids. One cannot work 16 hour days and have a healthy relationship with anyone in one's life.

 

I think plenty of old-fashioned relationships functioned well for men, because women were submissive, quiet and inferior. They are no model for partners with equal status, and no model for children to learn from.

 

I work long hours. I wouldn't dream of not helping at home, lording it lazily over others whilst they work. I wouldn't treat my spouse in such a derogatory way, wouldn't want to indulge my ego like that (like I'm on an elevated platform and they are just my servant, not a valued partner I want to share experiences and time with), wouldn't treat friends or family like that when in their homes, and welcome the active part of doing jobs in the home because health is very important.

 

Lest we forget, a huge problem in this modern world of ours are those who never look after their health by being active and caring about fitness.

 

This is a very idealistic and first world view of things. In many countries a 16 hour work day is fairly common and workers have few rights. They have no choice - if they don't do it, they and their family starve. They have no education so it is difficult for them to seek other employment.

[anna121]

Yes. It is, frankly, an absurd notion that someone who is working longer hours than they would like - and than is probably healthy for them - should just be able to replace those working conditions with better ones. The subtext that I am reading is that it is the person's fault for accepting substandard working conditions, and they don't therefore get to "shirk" their duties at home. That reflects a decidedly uncaring attitude on the part of their spouse.

 

It doesn't have to be the extreme of 16 hours either. I'd say that regularly working 10 hours a day would be enough to diminish one's capacity to contribute as equally as the person who is not working. Especially once you factor in commuting time.

[bachdude]

May l ask how old you are? I find you very one dimensional in your ideas of what is sharing in a home. Many men contribute to the relationship without cleaning the toilet. I had 2 long term relationships and they were not the type of men to iron and clean inside the fridge and they were far from being lazy. They did all the yard work, pool work, the mechanics and maintenance on both cars, they did all the elbow work like painting, organizing garage, etc. While i cleaned up after dinner they didn't sit there, they were out and about participating "in their way" to our household.

 

This is exactly how it was in my family growing up! My Dad is a handyman's handyman. He always had a project going on around the house, from turning the upstairs attic into a second floor of our house (all the dry walling, electrical, etc), to building a deck, to building all the cabinets in the kitchen, etc, etc, etc.

 

He's in his mid 70s and he is exactly the same. He has boundless energy. He finished the basement in their current house, he redid the kitchen, built a stone deck, and manages his organic greenhouse where he grows a bunch of veggies and fruit (he built the greenhouse himself. I kid you not). There is always a project. Where ever my parents have lived, he always has turned their house into one with way more value in it than when they bought it.

 

It is traditional yes. But I severely doubt my Mom feels "abused" and used by my Dad because she cooks, shops, vacuums, and does his laundry!

Edited August 6, 2016 by bachdude

[Els]

May l ask how old you are? I find you very one dimensional in your ideas of what is sharing in a home.

 

Right. There is more than one way of conducting a healthy R. If a couple wants to split the various duties (in and out of the house) in a manner that suits therm, as long as it's roughly equitable and they are both happy with it I don't see how anyone has the right to judge them. On the other end of the traditional spectrum I know a couple where the guy does all of the cooking and cleaning, and the woman all of the house and car maintenance and driving. It seems to work for them, so that's great. It doesn't have to be 50/50 on everything.

 

Of course, none of this applies to the OP (her bf isn't really contributing in any way) so I would heartily suggest a thread split at this point.

[anika99]

I really object to the idea that cleaning and cooking (basically, all the hard work in the home) are the duties of a woman, simply because of gender. That's offensive. It's also a poor model for parents to teach their kids. We need males and females to be active in the home, willingly doing every kind of job, whether they like it or not.

 

When people are lazy, they infect every environment they are involved in - they don't bother cleaning up after themselves in the workplace, they don't bother cleaning up after themselves when they eat in the park, they don't help with dinner and cleaning up when they visit friends and family, and so on and so on. They cause needless amounts of discord and stress.

 

Money is incidental to the work that needs to be done around a home. A home is built by 2 people (and their kids, if kids come into play) maintaining the home by working together, showing support, teamwork and appreciation for each other. Any imbalance created by laziness in the home will result in an unhappy relationship.

 

Appreciation of the home and relationship via being purposeful in the home is at the core of all the important things in relationships - communication, trust, intimacy, loyalty, compassion, kindness, healthy coping mechanisms and so on and so on.

 

 

I both agree and disagree with you.

 

First of all I think the only person making this a gender issue is you. I don't think anyone here has said that women should shoulder the household chores simply because they are women. People are talking about fair contributions to the relationship and the fair division of household chores.

 

I am a woman who supported my (ex)bf for almost a year while he was not working. Yes I had the expectation that he would handle most of the household chores since I was working 10 hour days. Let's face it, no house requires 10 hours of housework a day. Usually just a couple of hours a day is sufficient to keep a home looking in tip top shape. Maybe more on some days and less on others, which still leaves the person not working outside of the home plenty of hours to devote to other endeavours. Personally I found it downright offensive that I was out busting my butt everyday to keep the bills paid for both myself and my ex only to come and have to do chores because my ex apparently had better things to do with his free time. I felt unloved and unappreciated and after many months of this I kicked him out (my place).

 

If I were not working and living with a man who worked hard every day to pay all of the bills I certainly would not expect him to still do 1/2 the chores at home. Not because I'm a woman and doing housework is a woman's job, but because that would be my contribution to our relationship and to keeping us both happy and free of stress and, as i mentioned before, even doing all of the household chores still does not equal a fulltime job. It's not about gender, it's about contributing a fair amount time to keeping things running smoothly. If one person is working hard outside of the home for 10-12 hours a day then surely the non working person can spend 2-3 hours a day doing chores so that the working partner doesn't have to deal with it.

 

Where I agree with you is that money has nothing to do with the division of chores. If my both my partner and myself are working fulltime I'm not going to do all of the housework simply because my partner makes more money than me and therefore contributes more financially. No way. It's not about who makes the most money, it's about who has the most free time to spend on taking care of the house.

 

I also agree that nobody has the right to treat their partner like a servant. If I'm not working then I don't mind doing the bulk of the chores but that doesn't mean my partner can be a total pig. I would still expect him to pick up after himself by doing things like putting his laundry in the hamper, picking up his dirty dishes, and cleaning up any messes that he has made. I once dated a guy who not only didn't do housework he would also leave messes all over the place. He would eat and then just leave the table, leaving his mess and dishes just sitting there. He would get the floor all wet when he showered and then walk out of the bathroom just leaving his wet towel sitting on the wet floor. He would take the wrapper off of something and not bother to put it in the garbage. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable in every situation. No way would I follow along behind someone picking up after them and cleaning their messes.