Emotional affair(s)

[LavendarLass]

My story: married 23 years; 3 children. WH had online/"internet" affair in 2003-2006 (constant phone calls, phone sex, secret PO Box; letters, emails - intense sexual relationship though never in person) - we got through that but obviously didn't fix all issues as he had "emotional affair" in 2010-2011 (constant texting a female coworker, 5,000 texts in 1 month! typically 2,000+ texts per month, occasional lunches and spending several weekends together at our cabin, alone, but claiming "nothing physical happened!") - we worked through that one too.

 

During those episodes I made it quite clear that I would not go through this again. Well, last summer 2015, just had feeling something was different/wrong - checked WH cell phone and noted numerous texts to another coworker - nothing sexual, but obviously more personal than just work issues. selfies the other woman sent him of her, her with her 20 year old daughter, her horse, etc - just day-to-day stuff but not what you'd send a coworker. When I brought up with my husband, he was angry about my "snooping" on his phone and responded angrily. Finally, I checked cell records and saw he'd been texting 2,000+ times each month, not to me! and confronted him. He admitted overly-friendly texts to coworker and agreed to stop. I made clear "No texting!".

 

they managed no texting for 2 months, but then started up again in January, though not to the extent of before. Now I've finally got his attention by emotional blowout and letting him know I've had enough and ready to leave/separate. Now he's deleted her contact from his cell phone and notes he won't text anymore so he feels "it's over, let's move on". he claims no emotional/love feelings, "just a friend who got too close" so can't understand why I am this upset.

 

He claims the OW has no romantic feelings for him either, just strong friendship. We are in the process of working through this - he does show some insight that seems more than he's shown in past. My question: for the OW, why would she simply be a "friend" who is available for texting and friendship just when he wants it? i.e., she's fine texting as much as he wants/is able, but then apparently perfectly fine to just stop when he can't; restart when he feels like it? I know her as we've interacted as friends due to his office relationship with her. I have not yet confronted her and I am in dilemma about whether I want to or not.

Edited July 17, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Paragraphs and move to Infidelity

[dreamingoftigers]

He's a serial cheat that has repeatedly demonstrated zero respect for you.

 

Exactly HOW did you "work through this?"

 

I think you should read some stuff on chumplady.

 

I don't think your husband will EVER stop cheating on you.

[LavendarLass]

yes, I know he is a serial cheater and I have looked at the Chump Lady website (in fact, I read her book!) - I realize I am a chump. I have been working on figuring out how to set better boundaries and set my limits.

 

On the other hand, I've put 23 years into this relationship and have 3 children who are just entering high school. To throw in the towel now seems not ideal.

 

We tried marriage counseling in 2011, after 2nd affair, but it was a disaster. MC was not up to dealing with my well-spoken and manipulative spouse, so somehow we ended up talking about my issues and not WH! We generally have an OK marriage and I just got caught up in living life, raising children, working. I "moved on", which is what he is suggesting again now.

 

His issues definitely stem from entitlement and control.

He loves to be a cake eater and enjoy a family but have the fun of a flirty relationship on the side. The weird thing is it is mainly emotional/texting at this point. I am hesitant to end things over texting.

[tinkerbell16]

yes, I know he is a serial cheater and I have looked at the Chump Lady website (in fact, I read her book!) - I realize I am a chump. I have been working on figuring out how to set better boundaries and set my limits.

 

On the other hand, I've put 23 years into this relationship and have 3 children who are just entering high school. To throw in the towel now seems not ideal.

 

We tried marriage counseling in 2011, after 2nd affair, but it was a disaster. MC was not up to dealing with my well-spoken and manipulative spouse, so somehow we ended up talking about my issues and not WH! We generally have an OK marriage and I just got caught up in living life, raising children, working. I "moved on", which is what he is suggesting again now.

 

His issues definitely stem from entitlement and control.

He loves to be a cake eater and enjoy a family but have the fun of a flirty relationship on the side. The weird thing is it is mainly emotional/texting at this point. I am hesitant to end things over texting.

 

What are your boundaries? You have shown him repeatedly he can cheat and you will "move on". What does he have to do for you to leave? It breaks my heart to hear how manipulative he is.

 

It's all about his happiness... his ego. He shows no respect for you or your marriage.

 

What about your happiness? When is the last time you felt valued?

[LavendarLass]

What are your boundaries? You have shown him repeatedly he can cheat and you will "move on". What does he have to do for you to leave? It breaks my heart to hear how manipulative he is.

 

It's all about his happiness... his ego. He shows no respect for you or your marriage.

 

What about your happiness? When is the last time you felt valued?

 

I realize I have shown him that he can do what he wants and I put up with it. As long as he hunkers down and takes the emotional outrage when I first find out about these things, he waits it out until it "blows over". Which until now it has.

 

I realize I let my boundaries shift. I think now, if this were the 2nd affair when he was clearly emotionally very involved with the woman and even had her out to our cabin (he says absolutely no physical contact, but obviously he's a liar so I can't take that for anything) - that is when I should have just left him for at least a period of separation and let him do more to "work it out" with me. Would have been a better response for BOTH of us. But at that time I had 3 children under the age of 10 and no family living nearby, busy with work etc and just likely did not have the strength to do it. I feel I DO have the strength to do it now, but my "boundary" shifts and I make excuses that now this was "just" texting, not sexual in any way. I did see quite a few texts and they were all rather benign, so it seems a bit severe to split our family and have 3 children dealing with separation over texting. But I know the issue is deeper than texting and it is lack of trust, lack of respect. It is very hard...

[dreamingoftigers]

I realize I have shown him that he can do what he wants and I put up with it. As long as he hunkers down and takes the emotional outrage when I first find out about these things, he waits it out until it "blows over". Which until now it has.

 

I realize I let my boundaries shift. I think now, if this were the 2nd affair when he was clearly emotionally very involved with the woman and even had her out to our cabin (he says absolutely no physical contact, but obviously he's a liar so I can't take that for anything) - that is when I should have just left him for at least a period of separation and let him do more to "work it out" with me. Would have been a better response for BOTH of us. But at that time I had 3 children under the age of 10 and no family living nearby, busy with work etc and just likely did not have the strength to do it. I feel I DO have the strength to do it now, but my "boundary" shifts and I make excuses that now this was "just" texting, not sexual in any way. I did see quite a few texts and they were all rather benign, so it seems a bit severe to split our family and have 3 children dealing with separation over texting. But I know the issue is deeper than texting and it is lack of trust, lack of respect. It is very hard...

 

You know exactly what he is and you don't need to wait for his next f*ckup.

 

You are also not responsible for teaching him how to respect you. He should know how to before he even married you, much less fathered children with you.

 

I completely understand your reasoning. I do. And the grief must be super super deep, almost incomprehensible how you can deal with this shyte and still survive.... and have to raise children and keep yourself sane at the same time.

 

I am so sorry.

 

But don't pretend his disrespect isn't total disrespect. And don't pretend it isn't traumatic.

 

I froze with fear with my husband. I wish I had seen a lawyer so I knew what my legal options were exactly. Have you done this?

 

Make divorce a viable option for yourself. I am not saying "you have to divorce blah blah blah." You have no moral obligation to do so and I felt heavily pressured to divorce my husband.

 

But what DID help was very much knowing my option existed and forming a Plan B with my ducks in a row in case I should want to in the future.

 

That alone can help center you. In my case, my husband knew I was damned serious and I stopped even contacting him and only accepted limited contact FROM him. Then things started to shift.

 

He damn well knows I will INSTANTLY dissolve our marriage if there is a whiff of that disrespect again. And I am NOT kidding.

 

It may not even take that with all of the garbage I went through, frankly.

But I won't let the kids hold me hostage or finances or anything else. If he decides to disrespect me again like that, I will scorch the ground. And trust me, I am not bitter or scary. In fact, I won't even be if it happens again. I will just be gone and papers filed within 24 hours. The only contact we will have will be about the kids via email. Any custody he gets will be dropoff and pickup at my parents. Seriously, there's a chance I wouldn't see him for a very very long time.

 

(he isn't familiar with my whole plan of the fact that I would go "no contact" right away, but he does know I have a plan if need be). But knowing I do have the power and the option to do that helped to restore my sanity from the psychological torture.

 

I stopped grieving as hard and looked at it as a chance for freedom not a deep loss if he went back to his cheating ways.

 

There's a better life out there if your husband wants to treat you like a "mother-figure" that he has to hide stuff from and play mindf*ck games with.

 

I remember one time begging my husband to "just stop f*cking with my head." That was as bad as the cheating itself.

[Mr. Lucky]

My story: married 23 years; 3 children. WH had online/"internet" affair in 2003-2006 (constant phone calls, phone sex, secret PO Box; letters, emails - intense sexual relationship though never in person) - we got through that but obviously didn't fix all issues as he had "emotional affair" in 2010-2011 (constant texting a female coworker, 5,000 texts in 1 month! typically 2,000+ texts per month, occasional lunches and spending several weekends together at our cabin, alone, but claiming "nothing physical happened!") - we worked through that one too. During those episodes I made it quite clear that I would not go through this again. Well, last summer 2015, just had feeling something was different/wrong - checked WH cell phone and noted numerous texts to another coworker - nothing sexual, but obviously more personal than just work issues. selfies the other woman sent him of her, her with her 20 year old daughter, her horse, etc - just day-to-day stuff but not what you'd send a coworker. When I brought up with my husband, he was angry about my "snooping" on his phone and responded angrily. Finally, I checked cell records and saw he'd been texting 2,000+ times each month, not to me! and confronted him.

 

I'm wondering why you think none of these affairs were physical ??? Weekends alone in a cabin but no sex - what are they, 12 years old?

 

Make whatever decision your think best benefits yourself, your marriage and your family. But don't compound his deception by also lying to yourself - your best outcome depends on seeing him clearly as the serial philanderer he is. At least then, you can plan accordingly for the next time...

 

Mr. Lucky

[LavendarLass]

You know exactly what he is and you don't need to wait for his next f*ckup.

 

You are also not responsible for teaching him how to respect you. He should know how to before he even married you, much less fathered children with you.

 

I completely understand your reasoning. I do. And the grief must be super super deep, almost incomprehensible how you can deal with this shyte and still survive.... and have to raise children and keep yourself sane at the same time.

 

I am so sorry.

 

But don't pretend his disrespect isn't total disrespect. And don't pretend it isn't traumatic.

 

I froze with fear with my husband. I wish I had seen a lawyer so I knew what my legal options were exactly. Have you done this?

 

Make divorce a viable option for yourself. I am not saying "you have to divorce blah blah blah." You have no moral obligation to do so and I felt heavily pressured to divorce my husband.

 

But what DID help was very much knowing my option existed and forming a Plan B with my ducks in a row in case I should want to in the future.

 

That alone can help center you. In my case, my husband knew I was damned serious and I stopped even contacting him and only accepted limited contact FROM him. Then things started to shift.

 

He damn well knows I will INSTANTLY dissolve our marriage if there is a whiff of that disrespect again. And I am NOT kidding.

 

It may not even take that with all of the garbage I went through, frankly.

But I won't let the kids hold me hostage or finances or anything else. If he decides to disrespect me again like that, I will scorch the ground. And trust me, I am not bitter or scary. In fact, I won't even be if it happens again. I will just be gone and papers filed within 24 hours. The only contact we will have will be about the kids via email. Any custody he gets will be dropoff and pickup at my parents. Seriously, there's a chance I wouldn't see him for a very very long time.

 

(he isn't familiar with my whole plan of the fact that I would go "no contact" right away, but he does know I have a plan if need be). But knowing I do have the power and the option to do that helped to restore my sanity from the psychological torture.

 

I stopped grieving as hard and looked at it as a chance for freedom not a deep loss if he went back to his cheating ways.

 

There's a better life out there if your husband wants to treat you like a "mother-figure" that he has to hide stuff from and play mindf*ck games with.

 

I remember one time begging my husband to "just stop f*cking with my head." That was as bad as the cheating itself.

 

 

Dreaming, this is what I've been starting to think exactly. Yes, I did see a divorce lawyer back in October, just to see what my options would be. I did not tell my husband that I went at the time, but I did tell him that during this recent "recurrence" and I think it sobered him. I've also started asking around about places to rent so I can leave if needed and I told him that too. This is the first time I've been specific.

 

I wasn't sure from your reply where you stand now in your situation. Did you have a separation from your WH but now back together?

[LavendarLass]

I'm wondering why you think none of these affairs were physical ??? Weekends alone in a cabin but no sex - what are they, 12 years old?

 

Make whatever decision your think best benefits yourself, your marriage and your family. But don't compound his deception by also lying to yourself - your best outcome depends on seeing him clearly as the serial philanderer he is. At least then, you can plan accordingly for the next time...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I absolutely realize I have no way of knowing about the previous affair and due to his lying, really have to assume it was physical. As you say (and I've said this to him numerous times) - what sane person would believe you were in the heat of an "attraction" (to the tune of texting 5,000+ times that month!), went somewhere and stayed over night together and "nothing happened". That is not the logical conclusion. But, he continues to deny and has never admitted thus leaving that a stalemate. I've even told him that it would be a sign of TRUTH if he were to be honest. I really should have taken the kids and left after that whole situation.

 

But, now we are here again and I realize I should leave now, but I let my boundary shift and I feel it crazy to leave a marriage and hurt 3 children over texting! (again, realizing it is so much deeper) - ugh, the rabbit hole I am in!

[elaine567]

But, now we are here again and I realize I should leave now, but I let my boundary shift and I feel it crazy to leave a marriage and hurt 3 children over texting! (again, realizing it is so much deeper) - ugh, the rabbit hole I am in!

 

You would not be leaving over texting, you would be leaving over the fact your husband is a serial cheat and he is up to his old tricks again.

[Mr. Lucky]

But, now we are here again and I realize I should leave now, but I let my boundary shift and I feel it crazy to leave a marriage and hurt 3 children over texting! (again, realizing it is so much deeper) - ugh, the rabbit hole I am in!

 

Again Ms LL, how do you know it's "only" texting?

 

You know your H better than anyone, but unless he's emotionally stunted, for most men the pursuit is motivated by the end game. In this case, that would be a physical affair. And I'd put his denials in the same basket you put his promises not to do this again.

 

This is how you're going to live the rest of your life ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[BuddyX]

"Don't cling on to a mistake just because you spend a lot of time making it"

 

You keep giving him a pass. He def lacks respect for you. Once you told him its "over next time it happens" and you still stuck around then he has no incentive to change.

 

Log cabin and nothing happened? Please, don't be so gullible.

[heartwhole]

Oh my. I'm so sorry.

 

I really have a hard time believing this man spent weekends alone with another woman and nothing happened. I would be offended that someone would insult my intelligence by asking me to believe that. When I found the emails confirming the flight for the OW to come sneak onto my husband's business trip, I didn't ask, "Did you have sex with her?" I just said, "OBVIOUSLY YOU HAD SEX WITH HER." I mean, come on.

 

You said you made it quite clear that you would not go through this again, but you didn't, in retrospect, because here you are again. This is a man who had a secret PO box but somehow after two "emotional" affairs he expects privacy with his phone? He thinks buddy-buddy relationships with women are OK? Weekends alone in cabins? And even if they're not, what are the consequences? How many strikes does he get?

 

It sounds to me like he has you over a barrel because divorce is not an option in your mind.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Sometimes a serial cheat needs a rude awakening. He obviously is not afraid you will leave...or he would have straightened up ...and you have given him plenty of chances to do so.

 

You are allowing your children to hold you hostage in a relationship where they see their father disrespect their mother. You might be surprised just how much teenagers are aware.

 

It might be a really good idea to serve him papers...you can always change your mind....but it just might give him a wake up call to straighten or bye bye.

 

You sound like a very strong lady. Your kids will be just fine with a mom who respects herself enough to kick their cheating father to the curb.

 

You would not be giving up on him for texting. You would be giving him what he obviously yearns for...freedom. He doesn't care for you enough to treat you well....and at this point...it is about you.

 

You have allowed him to take your power....i suggest you take it back....and if he can prove to you he is sincere and he deserves you...you can consider forgiving him and trusting him again....but right now...he doesn't deserve a kind word from you....not one.

 

I know it will be difficult....I know you just want all of this to go away....but i don't think that's going to happen until you let him see you will no longer roll over and play dead.

 

I am all about reconciliation....but your husband has had several chances to show you he truly wants to reconcile...and he is failing miserably.

[LavendarLass]

Oh my. I'm so sorry.

 

I really have a hard time believing this man spent weekends alone with another woman and nothing happened. I would be offended that someone would insult my intelligence by asking me to believe that. When I found the emails confirming the flight for the OW to come sneak onto my husband's business trip, I didn't ask, "Did you have sex with her?" I just said, "OBVIOUSLY YOU HAD SEX WITH HER." I mean, come on.

 

You said you made it quite clear that you would not go through this again, but you didn't, in retrospect, because here you are again. This is a man who had a secret PO box but somehow after two "emotional" affairs he expects privacy with his phone? He thinks buddy-buddy relationships with women are OK? Weekends alone in cabins? And even if they're not, what are the consequences? How many strikes does he get?

 

It sounds to me like he has you over a barrel because divorce is not an option in your mind.

 

I know. (and I apologize Heartwhole that I am going on 2 threads here; this is my first time on board and was trying to get perspective from OW but also just info/support in general).

 

Yes, I guess the bottom line is divorce is not what I want and I feel angry that it ends up being his behavior that drives all this. Neither of us come from divorced families at all - it is not something either of us have any comfort or experience with. We are both professionals. We have three children. We have no financial worries and are both of like responsible spending and saving. We are both reasonably nice people. And I know, obviously, that does not protect us from anything as it has not. But it seems so much and crazy for him to jeopardize things as he does. Our children are just entering high school.

 

He has spent a decade gas lighting me regarding these affairs and I see that. I see it now more clearly than ever. A lot of this is a process that we gain knowledge of over time. I definitely have the tendencies (again, obviously) that make me susceptible to this manipulation: the need to be understood, the need for approval and my ever-shifting boundaries/making excuses for people.

I am actually not a doormat in my general life; again, a professional woman. Even if we did split, I could support myself. I work part time now and could ramp it up to full time pretty easily. (though not an easy life for me or my children as I would be much less available to them). So those are not issues that hold me where I am. I am still trying to figure out why I put up with it and how to enforce my boundaries.

I do realize the smartest thing for me would be to separate now and if he wants to work on things to have him do that with real consequences and with significant effort. If he showed no insight now, I would leave. But for the first time he has owned up to some of this; has read the book Surviving an Affair, etc. I guess I feel I've stuck it out this long and we are on the verge of a breakthrough. I realize only time will tell.

[Lady Hamilton]

My question: for the OW, why would she simply be a "friend" who is available for texting and friendship just when he wants it? i.e., she's fine texting as much as he wants/is able, but then apparently perfectly fine to just stop when he can't; restart when he feels like it? I know her as we've interacted as friends due to his office relationship with her. I have not yet confronted her and I am in dilemma about whether I want to or not.

 

Because either they have another way to communicate you don't know about or they just maintain their relationship while they are together at work through work emails, face-to-face contact, and physical contact. The texting is a secondary means to their primary communication and thus easily sacrificed.

 

Confronting her is pointless... I suspect they have their stories long set up and their backup communication quite established. Even if they don't, he's hers at least 9 hours a day, 5 days a week.

 

Having had a work AP, when his wife said "no more texting" it was neither here nor there. We just communicated more at work.

 

As for your husbands new and immediate "insight," this his third or fourth rodeo. He's parroting back what you've told him for the third time now. True insight wouldn't be reciting back what you expect to hear, it would be not getting in the situation to begin with.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Lady Hamilton

[heartwhole]

Reading that book is a good first step, but it's also a quick read so it amounts to less than an hour of effort on his part.

 

Is he in counseling?

[holyrolypoly]

I'm wondering why you think none of these affairs were physical ??? Weekends alone in a cabin but no sex - what are they, 12 years old?

 

Make whatever decision your think best benefits yourself, your marriage and your family. But don't compound his deception by also lying to yourself - your best outcome depends on seeing him clearly as the serial philanderer he is. At least then, you can plan accordingly for the next time...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Even 12 year olds would have kissed. Probably over-the-sweater touching, too. These two grown people definitely had sex.

[elaine567]

I guess I feel I've stuck it out this long and we are on the verge of a breakthrough. .

 

What on earth makes you think that?

He read a book???

He has just learned another way to gas-light you.

He tells you what you want to hear, I guess.

[LavendarLass]

Sometimes a serial cheat needs a rude awakening. He obviously is not afraid you will leave...or he would have straightened up ...and you have given him plenty of chances to do so.

 

You are allowing your children to hold you hostage in a relationship where they see their father disrespect their mother. You might be surprised just how much teenagers are aware.

 

It might be a really good idea to serve him papers...you can always change your mind....but it just might give him a wake up call to straighten or bye bye.

 

You sound like a very strong lady. Your kids will be just fine with a mom who respects herself enough to kick their cheating father to the curb.

 

You would not be giving up on him for texting. You would be giving him what he obviously yearns for...freedom. He doesn't care for you enough to treat you well....and at this point...it is about you.

 

You have allowed him to take your power....i suggest you take it back....and if he can prove to you he is sincere and he deserves you...you can consider forgiving him and trusting him again....but right now...he doesn't deserve a kind word from you....not one.

 

I know it will be difficult....I know you just want all of this to go away....but i don't think that's going to happen until you let him see you will no longer roll over and play dead.

 

I am all about reconciliation....but your husband has had several chances to show you he truly wants to reconcile...and he is failing miserably.

 

This really is true.

[Mr. Lucky]

This really is true.

 

LL, at some point people in your situation realize it comes down to this:

 

You can have your current life with husband, house and kids.

 

Or...

 

You can have a life without Infidelity.

 

Pick One.

 

Few people here will judge your choice, it has to work for you.

 

Keep posting, lots of good advice here...

 

Mr. Lucky

[LavendarLass]

LL, at some point people in your situation realize it comes down to this:

 

You can have your current life with husband, house and kids.

 

Or...

 

You can have a life without Infidelity.

 

Pick One.

 

Few people here will judge your choice, it has to work for you.

 

Keep posting, lots of good advice here...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Yes, I see your point and I have been looking at it like that. I guess my attitude is I have wanted to be married and have our family intact and I seem to put up with a lot. You all have been very enlightening and supportive and I've gotten some good advice. After pondering this yesterday, I do see that just letting this slide and "moving on" is really not a good plan of action. And just reading a short book doesn't fix the problem. I am trying to craft an action plan that requires more from him. It may come to a separation where he sees how much he might lose and really shifts that dynamic dramatically.

 

At a minimum, I need to come up with some requirements for him that don't let him off so easily. I told him yesterday he has to do some IC. Not negotiable any longer. He has been highly resistant to this in the past.

 

I am also going to figure out what other steps I can take. I am considering doing a "postnup" (I think it's called) where we meet with a lawyer and agree on a settlement if things don't work out.

 

I guess what I want is to have a very specific Plan B that will go right into play if any whiff of shenanigans in the future. There won't be a lot of crying, fighting - he'll have made his choice.

 

Any other suggestions?

Appreciate you guys

[BuddyX]

You're still falling into the trap. You're asking him to do something. This is all about you. Work on you. If he wants to come along that's great but if not, time to Pull the eject button.

 

Also a Post Nup is not worth the paper it's written on. Trust me on that. It Varies from state to state. But if you want to sign one for your own sanity, by all means. Make sure he pays for everything.

[heartwhole]

You can't start to rebuild when he's still being dishonest.

[Mr. Lucky]

Any other suggestions?

Appreciate you guys

 

From experience, I'll add this - if it comes down to listening to your heart or your brain, follow the cranium. The heart is easily misled...

 

Mr. Lucky