Shall I say bye?

[broken guy]

OK, start this fresh as the letter thread does not really count here. There is a chance I will be leaving the country in 24-48 hours and I may not come back depending on how the divorce/lose of home goes. Do I send her a mail to her phone just to say bye and the reason I may not come back? Nothing about the evidence I found, just to be short and to the point. My friend says no, she lost that right when she did the dirty on me, another cant deceide, my Mum was yes then no as my Brother was a no as well. Its hard to walk away from someone you loved for 4 years without saying bye...she didnt say bye, well, she did but then deceided to get serious with someone else.

[greenhorn]

I don't think that she deserves a bye, if you still go ahead with a bye then you are making yourself less and will come across a pathetic loser. Just uphold your dignity and don't give hoots to her.

 

Just compare, did she think atleast this much for you? would she have said bye to you if she was in your place ? She is now with some one else so you should not contact her now.

 

For you it might seem hard to ignore after 4 years but for girls it does not matter at all. Girls are by default selfish and opportunistic unless something happens to change that default setting.

[broken guy]

True, if I had done what she did then I dont think I would expect a bye from her. In fact, she has expressed surprise that I originally said I wanted to be her friend and she wanted that too. This is so hard, I have lost so many friends over the years and never thought I'd lose her. Maybe I am just holding on to the fringes in case she sees me as the great guy she fell in love with and not the depressed guy she split up with.

[greenhorn]

Yes my friend, I know how unfortunate is this to happen to anyone, but then there is nothing you can do about it. Just forget her, let her go and live her own life. Love is risky and not all love has a sweet ending.

 

Don't hang on the thin line of hope, you are destined to get much better things in life and you will get. Look forward and not towards her, love someone who cares and loves you as well. You will get a nice partner in life but for that you need to forget your ex and move ahead.

 

The path is tough but not impossible, try to gather yourself, get back your confidence , start thinking positive and don't write yourself off. Things happen when we least expect them to happen so you never know when you will meet someone true.

 

good luck

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by greenhorn

I don't think that she deserves a bye, if you still go ahead with a bye then you are making yourself less and will come across a pathetic loser. Just uphold your dignity and don't give hoots to her.

 

She is now with some one else so you should not contact her now.

 

Yup, I agree 100%.

[MWC_LifeBeginsAt40]

If YOU want to say good bye to her, then do it. Don't worry about how it looks to anyone else including what she makes of it. If it's something you will feel good about then do it. If you think you will regret not saying good bye, then do it.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by MWC_LifeBeginsAt40

If YOU want to say good bye to her, then do it.

 

If you absolutely must say goodbye, make it dignified.

 

No scrabbling around giving reasons which sound weak and defensive. No obvious fishing to see if she'll come back to you. No pronouncements on the future or saying why you're running off with your tail between your legs.

 

And be prepared for her to be cold, unfriendly and unhelpful. I'm not saying she will, but you should be prepared for the possibility.

[miss-gonewest]

Originally posted by greenhorn

For you it might seem hard to ignore after 4 years but for girls it does not matter at all.

 

Girls are by default selfish and opportunistic unless something happens to change that default setting.

 

Ahem ..... *taps foot*....

 

Isn't that a bit of a generalisation?

I think you may possibly be jumping the gun a bit there greenhorn... when it comes to selfish and opportunistic, I think you'll find the book was written by a bloke.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong...?

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by miss-gonewest

when it comes to selfish and opportunistic, I think you'll find the book was written by a bloke.

 

Common misconception. In fact he was the editor, not the author.

 

And many of the chapters - especially the ones on emotional manipulation and mindgames - were contributed by women.

[greenhorn]

Originally posted by miss-gonewest

 

 

Ahem ..... *taps foot*....

 

Isn't that a bit of a generalisation?

I think you may possibly be jumping the gun a bit there greenhorn... when it comes to selfish and opportunistic, I think you'll find the book was written by a bloke.

 

Or maybe I'm wrong...?

 

MGW, Yeah this is a bit of generalisation but I would say logical generalisation. I said that these qualities are found in girl by default, if you change the value of default then that would prevail. If a girl finds a guy and thinks that she is not going to get a better one than this, then the default setting is changed and she is all loyal, honest(?) and committed. If she still thinks she has chance then the default value remains activated.

 

I am sorry MGW, but 100 % of my knowledge ( own experience+ other's experience) says that selfish and opportunistic qualities are women's domain.

 

 

Originally posted by ReluctantRomeo

 

 

Common misconception. In fact he was the editor, not the author.

 

And many of the chapters - especially the ones on emotional manipulation and mindgames - were contributed by women.

 

The book that I read in my life had few other chapters as well like "sadistic behaviour - how to excel at it " , "how to dump a guy without any fault of his ?", " How to cheat at slightest opportunity or little incentive ?" and all this were authored by woman.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by greenhorn

The book that I read in my life had few other chapters as well like "sadistic behaviour - how to excel at it " , "how to dump a guy without any fault of his ?", " How to cheat at slightest opportunity or little incentive ?" and all this were authored by woman.

 

 

Greenie, you've got to get out there and regain your trust in women.

[miss-gonewest]

Originally posted by greenhorn

If a girl finds a guy and thinks that she is not going to get a better one than this, then the default setting is changed and she is all loyal, honest(?) and committed. If she still thinks she has chance then the default value remains activated.

 

I am sorry MGW, but 100 % of my knowledge ( own experience+ other's experience) says that selfish and opportunistic qualities are women's domain.

 

 

The book that I read in my life had few other chapters as well like "sadistic behaviour - how to excel at it " , "how to dump a guy without any fault of his ?", " How to cheat at slightest opportunity or little incentive ?" and all this were authored by woman.

 

This definately calls for a new thread... but while I'm here...

 

I don't think you can say that your first point is correct - I know many a man (trust me, I've dated them) - that has blatantly used me to get over whatever, and has moved on 'to one better than this'. In fact I think men usually operate in this mode until they find 'the one'.

 

I concede Romeo's point on emotional manipulation and mindgames - I think girls do this far better than men.

 

And I haven't even started on all the other chapters in between, so in fact I think I'll take my own cue and get that thread started...

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by miss-gonewest

And I haven't even started on all the other chapters in between, so in fact I think I'll take my own cue and get that thread started...

 

I look forward to it...

[broken guy]

Just to put this one back on track, I think I will write to her and say goodbye. I don't think I PERSONALLY could live with myself if I dont do it. I will say a few things to her about how I saw the evidence on her phone and how I will miss her and also that I dont trust the new BF (the ex ladies man) and it is a shame she didnt want a future with me. I need to say these things, not to bring her back on a guilt trip, but for my own piece of mind, ie, she knows what I know.

[miss-gonewest]

If you think you should write to her, then go ahead... I would do the same I think...? If it will bring you closure and let you move forward, then do so.

 

One word of advice, don't bag her new bloke - it will make you look bitter and jealous and it won't achieve anything in the long run. By all means tell her you saw the evidence she was cheating, but leave it at that.

 

If you believe in fate, then believe that one day she will learn that he is untrustworthy and will find out in her own time. By leaving things on a pleasant but ambivalent note, then she may feel secure enough to return to you if and when this happens.

 

If you want to leave the lines of communication open - say what you have to say, but don't accuse her.

 

If you don't care whether you hear from her again, then I guess you can say what you want.

 

Thats just my take on it. Good luck - let us know what you decide...

[broken guy]

I mention him here: "I know you are in a relationship now that you said holds the same level of emotion that you held for me (I’ve had an offer or two myself, even gave one a try) and that has developed in a short space of time but, I warn you, I never trusted Michelle and I don’t trust Matt. I hear more and more about his reputation all the time from different people and it reminds me of my Dad’s, you can’t change a leopard’s spots, a charmer to your face and a charmer behind it too. My Mum tried." and also here: "Even if Matt does go back to his old ways, you wouldn’t come back to me because of pride and your recollection of our relationship"

Apart from that, I mention my airport story and that the letter is sne tnot to upset her or beg for her back, but for her to learn as she cant go on this way in life as she will get shot down. As I have mentioned before, this is TOTALLY out of character for her.

If anyone would like me to post the full letter here for edits/recommendations then I will gladly do so.

[miss-gonewest]

If you really want feedback - post it all here, but be warned, I can feel some editing coming on already.

 

You need to remember that less is more here... women are far more emotional than men, we don't need everything spelled out for us.

 

You want to keep her intrigued and interested in you right? So don't put your whole story out there... give her the basics if you want to open lines of communication and have her respond back to you.

 

If you blurt it all out - she will read it, trash it and go on with her life.

 

Keep her curious....

 

These are just my thoughts - but if you want feedback I will provide it.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by miss-gonewest

These are just my thoughts - but if you want feedback I will provide it.

 

And I'd like to see this too and would be happy to comment.

[broken guy]

Here is my 1st edit:

Hi,

Let me start this letter with the beginning of a story I may or may not have told you before:

I can’t remember which airport it was but we were both there and you had to get a plane before me. We said goodbye, hugged and kissed and I watched you head towards your plane with a tear in my eye as I knew I wouldn’t see you again for some time. Every time you left me for Belgium or Durham, I was upset.

Now, a lot of people have told me NOT to contact you, a few have said to have a go at you and call you a cheating bitch/liar/heartless/weak-willed/opportunistic/selfish etc. etc. But when have I ever listened to what other people thought about us? You know how much crap I have had to deal with from people here in the past year about you but each and every time, I told them to shut up. They still do it now and say I have a reason to believe them this time yet still I tell them to shut up.

People are shocked that I am not utterly pissed off with you, including yourself, for what you did in the end. They ask me how can I defend a liar and a cheater and that I can do so much better than you. They say that “of course she was telling you that you were too good for her as she was paranoid about your good looks and that other girls want you. That’s why she went for a fat loser as she wouldn’t have to worry about that aspect anymore”. But I am angrier with myself than you. Why? Well, I saw the messages on your phone and I never confronted you about them. I know that was bad of me but you can’t blame me as your actions were not fitting with a couple trying to work stuff out and of a person whom said they didn’t have a secret lover and wanted us back together ASAP. I chose to believe you and trust you as, in 4 years; you had never lied to me before nor I to you. You, of all people, kind of knew what I was going through at the time and I didn’t want to wreck your happiness by moving in as a manic depressive. It would have set us all the way back to square one. The conversation you overheard with Richie, well, it wasn’t that he was unsure about living with me, he was unsure about staying in Japan. Regardless, I spent that night detailing why I wanted to live with you and was heading to meet you when we were sidetracked by Richie being a fool…again! You brought up me not living with you in Durham when I tried to and you attached that to Teradacho. I DID try to live with you in Durham, you walked around all the bars with me that day and I called a temping agency but all the jobs were in Newcastle. I wasn’t going to eat all your food and get in the way. Anyway, you told me Serene wasn’t happy with me there and I didn’t want to cause any tensions.

This leads to the messages from Michelle. Yes, I went into your email one night. Why? 2 reasons: 1) I was drunk and 2) I had to intercept an email which someone had sent to you without my permission. It was an email which would have made you upset and I never wanted you to go through that **** that Mike put you (and us) through. So, I went in there to delete it. You can imagine my shock at seeing emails there from The Bitch, someone whom you constantly called me about and berated for being a selfish, lying cow. Yet there they were, so I looked at them. I find out you have been telling her all manner of things about me. You will never feel the hurt and pain that knowledge alone caused me. After everything she did, not only to break us up and to put me down, but to argue with you about stupid stuff, you confounded that.

In the past 3 months, I have been doing a lot of thinking and the main thing that pops into my head all the time is something you constantly repeated, it was your mantra in a way, of why you couldn’t think of a single reason why I was with you and how I was always going to leave you for the next best thing. Did I ever do this? No. Did I ever want to do this? No. Did you believe this? No. I have been told to stop analyzing things as I will never get the answer and you will never give me the answers either. I think I know the answer to be the same one you gave me when we met, that I could show you a whole new world that he couldn’t.

Yes, I have a million questions in my head that I would like an answer to with the main one being simply: Why? But I won’t ask you. I just know that I did not deserve this and, if I did, I must have done something awful to you without realizing it. I don’t think you could have done this in a worse way but I think you know that but I also think you don’t care and I will simply fade away for you as a minor memory.

You called an end to this relationship, for some reason, I always knew you would and, as much as it pains me to do so, I will have to call an end to our friendship. You don’t need me as a friend anymore and I don’t see why you want me to be your friend other than simply out of guilt or selfishness as I offer you something no one else can. I can’t be your friend for those reasons. You say you found your happiness without me even though I think I was the one to put you on this path as you were so unhappy and depressed before. My art gifts that I got to try and cheer you up only worked for a day it seemed. I never thought we had broken up when you left Daif***u but I have since been told that you did. I am so sorry that you thought that, truly I am. We both thought it would be best for a mini break just for you to get your head together, and mine too. You also had a job in the city so it was more convenient for you there.

I mustn’t ramble on here. It’s pointless. I have a lot of **** to deal with back home now. My Dad has been having an affair this past year and holding money away from my Mum and lying to her. He is leaving her financially ruined with no home to live in. My Mum and I are both in the same boat as I have been unable to get a job here and have no money either. It’s amazing what has happened to us and we let it happen. Your family never liked me from the get-go after Fabby’s report on me from Yokohama. No matter what I did, it never worked. I know why this is as do you; I am working class, low education background with a history of family troubles and no money. Yet, despite them not liking me, I thoroughly enjoyed coming to see them in Belgium as I had NEVER experienced a nice family life. Sitting around your fireplace with a glass of wine and chatting was such a simple pleasure for me, it is one of my happiest memories of my time with you. I shall miss that greatly.

I could go into a big rant about the chances I gave to you over this past year but, again, I won’t. Just remember that I never raised my voice at you and never got angry in a vicious way. You see, relationships have their bad patches; it’s working through them that makes you stronger. We will both hit these patches again but we had already come through a few and I thought we were all the better for it, sometimes, we need the patience of a saint with us (seeing as we are both nutbags!) and we were obviously good at this! I know you are in a relationship now that you said holds the same level of emotion that you held for me (I’ve had an offer or two myself, even gave one a try) and that has developed in a short space of time but, I warn you, I never trusted Michelle and I don’t trust Matt. I hear more and more about his reputation all the time from different people and it reminds me of my Dad’s, you can’t change a leopard’s spots, a charmer to your face and a charmer behind it too. My Mum tried. You know what I was offering you and I wanted to help you through your MA, if I couldn’t get in then I was going to go and find a job there and set us up with a nice house. You have chosen to decline my offer and I hope things work out for you. I have always come through ****ty times in my life (family, school, muggings, work, money etc.) and I think we would have made a great team forever as I am a dependable and reliable person. Not super emotional all the time I know but that, I think, was my only flaw. I have always put other people ahead of me and helped whenever I could. I will do so again and help my Mum in any way I can.

I have one FINAL opportunity to make it here with a job that isn’t teaching. The money is 450,000 base plus bonuses of up to 400,000 per month based on performance. It’s a recruiting agency. If I can get that, I can send virtually all the money home to my Mum to buy a house with. If not, I will be leaving Japan forever on the 19th July. It’s not what I wanted though. I wanted to do this for us. I was never able to cancel the necklace as I ordered it some time ago and it sits inside a wooden box with an inscription next to the picture I have of you on top of my TV. It will be gone soon, along with the pictures and TV. Maybe, on that day, I will be able to forget you and the 4 wonderful years we spent together. I won’t, however, be able to EVER get rid of my one single CURLY red hair that grows from the front of my fringe!

So, what is this letter? It’s me saying bye but with a few added bits. Not there to hurt you or make you cry but there for you to, hopefully, learn from. You can’t act this way in life, you will get shot down for it in the end. Nor is it a begging letter for you to come back. Even if Matt does go back to his old ways, you wouldn’t come back to me because of pride and your recollection of our relationship. It’s a shame really as I don’t think I have ever been bad to you, I just had a LOT to deal with in February and upset with the way I handled 3 different MAJOR problems at the same time. Whether you like it or not, it was the thought of you and me that gave me the energy to carry on. I told you that the only good thing that had come out of my Japanese experience was you and I didn’t want it to take you away as well. I still can’t believe that I will be getting on a plane without you next to me.

Back to the airport. Your plane was a brown coloured one and it set off towards the runway. I began to follow it along the terminal. It sped up, so did I. I ended up running all the way up the terminal building till there was nowhere left to run. I pressed myself up against the window and just watched and waited for your plane to appear again. It did and it was already in the sky. I stayed at that window until I could no longer see it. Then I slowly walked back to where I had come from and got all manner of looks from people. I must have looked like a right dick running alongside a plane! But I didn’t care.

Goodbye Eline Rammed a Willy. I will miss licking your nose as a trick for a kiss but, more than anything, I will miss you most of all.

Your ex-pal and best friend,

Mike (Spikey)

PS: I no longer have anyone to watch Doctor Katz with…

[westernxer]

Yes, with the plane's exhaust fumes.

[miss-gonewest]

Brokenguy, that letter is three pages when its pasted into Word!

 

It seems that you are just putting every single thought you have ever had about your relationship on paper - and its not her responsibility to have to hear that; that's what therapists are for!

 

I've taken out the bits that I thought were unnecessary and frankly, quite wussy....

 

Like I said, I'm being brutal but there is no way I'd read all that and take it in. I think you are giving her far too much and you are making excuses for her. You want to look strong, masculine and you want to her to feel something for you - that letter would just make me feel sorry for you, and pleased that I'd moved on (apologies again, I know that's hard to hear).

 

So, this is what I think you should say:

 

Hi,

People ask me how can I defend a liar and a cheater. Why? Well, I saw the messages on your phone and I never confronted you about them. I chose to believe you and trust you as, in 4 years; you had never lied to me before nor I to you.

 

You, of all people, kind of knew what I was going through at the time and I didn’t want to wreck your happiness by moving in - it would have set us all the way back to square one.

 

The conversation you overheard with Richie, well, it wasn’t that he was unsure about living with me, he was unsure about staying in Japan. Regardless, I spent that night detailing why I wanted to live with you.

 

This leads to the messages from Michelle. Yes, I went into your email one night. There they were, so I looked at them. I find out you have been telling her all manner of things about me. You will never feel the hurt and pain that knowledge alone caused me. After everything she did, not only to break us up and to put me down, but to argue with you about stupid stuff, you confounded that.

 

In the past 3 months, I have been doing a lot of thinking but I have been told to stop analyzing things as I will never get the answer and you will never give me the answers either. I think I know the answer to be the same one you gave me when we met, that I could show you a whole new world that he couldn’t.

 

Yes, I have a million questions in my head that I would like an answer to with the main one being simply: Why? I just know that I did not deserve this.

 

I have a lot of **** to deal with back home now. It’s amazing what has happened to us and we let it happen. I could go into a big rant about the chances I gave to you over this past year but, again, I won’t. You see, relationships have their bad patches; it’s working through them that makes you stronger.

 

I know you are in a relationship now that you said holds the same level of emotion that you held for me. Although I warn you, I never trusted Michelle and I don’t trust Matt.

 

You know what I was offering you and I wanted to help you through your MA, if I couldn’t get in then I was going to go and find a job there and set us up with a nice house. You have chosen to decline my offer and I hope things work out for you.

 

I have one FINAL opportunity to make it here with a job that isn’t teaching. If not, I will be leaving Japan forever on the 19th July. It’s not what I wanted though. I wanted to do this for us. I was never able to cancel the necklace as I ordered it some time ago and it sits inside a wooden box with an inscription next to the picture I have of you on top of my TV. It will be gone soon, along with the pictures and TV. Maybe, on that day, I will be able to forget you and the 4 years we spent together.

 

So, what is this letter? It’s me saying bye, it is not a begging letter. Whether you like it or not, it was the thought of you and me that gave me the energy to carry on. I told you that the only good thing that had come out of my Japanese experience was you.

 

I still can’t believe that I will be getting on a plane without you next to me.

 

Goodbye Eline Rammed a Willy. I will miss licking your nose as a trick for a kiss but, more than anything, I will miss you most of all.

 

Mike

 

 

Romeo - what are your thoughts???

[broken guy]

Thanks for the edit, I knew mine was too long but there is so much stuff that i never told her and held back. That is what is churning me up and keeping me awake at night. 3 months I have not slept well and she is always there when I sleep. I will keep an eye open for ideas on the letter but i think i will send it in the next 48 hours.

[westernxer]

I'd cut out 90 percent of that letter. Like miss-gonewest said, it's your stream of consciousness gone berserk. You have plenty of material, now you need to cut, cut, cut, until it's lean and mean and fit for the ring.

 

Every writer needs an editor, or at least a third eye to proof without prejudice. Ever seen a movie that was way too long? That's what I'm talking about.

[broken guy]

Any more edits would be helpful if Miss Gonewest's is too long...

[miss-gonewest]

Just wanted to let you know that I saw the messages on your phone and I feel really betrayed. I also saw the messages from Michelle as I went into your email one night. You will never feel the hurt and pain that knowledge alone caused me. After everything she did, not only to break us up and to put me down, but to argue with you about stupid stuff, you confounded that.

 

In the past 3 months, I have been doing a lot of thinking, but I only have one question: “Why?” I just know that I never deserved what you did to me. All relationships have their bad patches; it’s working through them that makes you stronger.

 

I know you are in a relationship now, although I warn you, I never trusted Michelle and I don’t trust Matt, however I still hope things work out for you.

 

I have one FINAL opportunity to make it here with a job that isn’t teaching. If not, I will be leaving Japan on the 19th July. Maybe, on that day, I will be able to forget you and the 4 years we spent together.

Whether you like it or not, it was the thought of you and me that gave me the energy to carry on. I told you that the only good thing that had come out of my Japanese experience was you.

 

I’ll miss you, Mike