Needy love and is there a way to get over it

[pteromom]

Here's the thing. You believe her questions are unreasonable and silly. So how do you handle it? By asking her the same questions? That makes ZERO sense. So you are taking unreasonable and silly, and expanding on it!

 

Instead, your goal needs to be to diffuse the unreasonable and silly. Talk to her about what her needs are. Try your best to meet them if you can. Both of you should have the goal of LOVING and respecting the other and meeting as many needs as possible - NOT trying to frustrate and hurt each other.

 

It is very possible her needs are more than you (or anyone else!) could meet. In which case, read my other response. Do not payoff undesirable behavior. Focus on paying off desirable behavior instead. Work on growing something GOOD.

[Emilia]

I think he was trying to reason with her, to show her how unreasonable she sounded. There is no reasoning with a very insecure and uncertain person though. Rationality doesn't come into it.

[Downtown]

JR, I agree with Emilia that the childish behavior you mention "goes well beyond immaturity." As Expat says, "She's behaving like a child." Moreover, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., irrational jealousy, controlling actions, inability to trust, temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you), and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

 

Importantly, I'm not suggesting your GF has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it. I therefore caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your GF exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and temper tantrums.

 

All the jealousy and accusations just destroyed me and I was exhausted. We fought all the time and it was always a jealousy thing.

If your GF is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent BPD traits), her greatest fear is abandonment. Indeed, this fear is so great in BPDers that it will often reveal itself in the form of irrational jealousy, e.g., your looking at another woman for a full second instead of a half second. And it will reveal itself in other paranoid thinking, e.g., her feeling like she is unimportant to you simply because you've been walking two steps in front of her on the sidewalk for a minute.

 

One day she is the best girl I ever knew and the next she was throwing things and slapping me....

This repeating cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back is one of the hallmarks of a BPDer relationship. It occurs because, in addition to the abandonment fear, a BPDer has a second great fear: that of engulfment, i.e., a suffocating feeling of being controlled that typically occurs right after a very intimate evening or in the middle of a great vacation or weekend. Hence, BPDers tend to exhibit their very worst behavior right after the very best of times.

 

The push-pull cycle in BPDer relationships occurs because the two fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that, if your GF is a BPDer, it is impossible for you to back away from triggering one of her fears without starting to trigger the other fear.

 

As you draw close to assure her of your love, for example, you will trigger a BPDer's engulfment fear because, although BPDers crave intimacy, they cannot tolerate it for very long. Due to a BPDer's fragile, weak sense of self identity, she will quickly feel like you're trying to control her -- and she will get the scary feeling of being suffocated or engulfed. She therefore will create a fight -- over absolutely nothing -- to push you away.

 

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you unavoidably will start triggering her abandonment fear. Hence, if your GF is a BPDer, you are always finding yourself in a lose/lose situation. You lose no matter what you did. There is no midpoints position (between "too close" and "not too far") where you can safely stand to avoid triggering both fears. I know only because I foolishly spent 15 years hunting for that Goldilocks position, only to find it doesn't exist.

 

she was throwing things and slapping me

If your GF is a BPDer, she carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of the anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in less than a minute -- oftentimes in only ten seconds. Moreover, BPDers have very weak control over their emotions. Indeed, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

 

For these reasons, the physical abuse of a partner -- e.g., the slapping done to you -- has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at 50% of Batterers are BPDers. Similarly, a 2008 study and a 2012 study find a strong association between violence and BPD.

 

What worked? STOP PUTTING UP WITH IT! ....I gave my insecure girlfriend that ultimatum and left her. After a week she never acted like that again. She is still needy but thats a whole other issue I gotta work out.

I hope you are right about her yelling and screaming not happening again. Yet, if she does exhibit strong and persistent BPD traits, her BPD behavioral symptoms almost certainly will reappear. And, absent years of intensive therapy, her behavior likely will get much worse.

 

She randomly says she feels like I am upset because Im not showing her enough love.

If she is a BPDer, it is impossible to convince her that you truly love her and will remain loyal to her. A BPDer is filled with so much self loathing that, even when she is convinced that you love her AT THIS VERY MOMENT, she lives in fear that you will abandon her as soon as you realize how empty she is on the inside.

 

With BPDers, the only exception to that statement occurs during the courtship period, a time of infatuation that typically lasts 4 to 6 months. During that brief period, her infatuation convinces her that you are the nearly perfect man who has come to rescue her from her unhappiness. In this way, the infatuation holds her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. She therefore is briefly convinced you will never walk out on her. As soon as the infatuation starts evaporating, however, those two fears return and you will start triggering the anger she's been carrying since early childhood. At that point, it will be impossible to prove to her that you will never leave her and that you dearly love her.

 

The problem is my girlfriend is unhappy with something I do almost every single day.

No, the problem is that you are repeatedly trying to do the impossible: to make an unhappy woman happy. If she actually is a BPDer, she has very low self esteem and is filled with self loathing that she's been carrying inside since early childhood. With such a person, trying to satisfy her needs and make her happy is as futile as trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.

 

We use to fight a lot but we both learned a lot of communication skills and read books and even went to counseling and have gotten better. We communicate better but even now its difficult to hear how she felt hurt about something or unloved about something EVERY DAY.

If she exhibits only mild to moderate BPD traits, the communication skills taught by MCs may be helpful. If her BPD traits are strong, however, MC likely will be a waste of time because a BPDer's issues are far more serious than a simple lack of communication skills.

 

Every time I change something that she says bothers her she comes up with something else.

If she is a BPDer, she has only a weak, fragile sense of who she is. To the extent she has any lasting self identity at all, it is the false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." Because a BPDer maintains a death grip on that false self image, she will seek frequent "validation" of it being true.

 

During the courtship period, for example, she was continually validated by your playing a role of "The Rescuer." Because you were trying to rescue her from unhappiness, she must have been "The Victim" or the rescues would not have been necessary. This is not to say, however, that she really wanted to be rescued. Rather, she really wanted validation of her false self image of being "The Victim." That's why, every time you pull her from the raging seas, she jumps right back into the water as soon as you turn your head.

 

When the infatuation evaporates and her fears return, a BPDer will start perceiving you part time as "The Rescuer" and the rest of the time as "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her unhappiness and every misfortune. She likely will continue the R/S for years as long as you are content to play those two roles, with the role of perpetrator becoming more and more frequent. BOTH roles, you see, will "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim."

 

The result is that a BPDer will often be saying "I hate this about you" and "I hate THAT about you." But, because you're continually validating her false self image, she won't want to leave you. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!

 

I feel like she is often upset about the craziest things.

Yes, if she is a BPDer, her "reasons" for getting mad at you typically will be irrational and unpredictable. The result is that, to avoid triggering her sulks or tantrums, you will always feel like you're walking on eggshells around her. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused partners) is titled Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

If she is a BPDer, it is highly unlikely that she is actually upset about those silly things. Because a BPDer has low self esteem and much self loathing, the last thing she wants to find is one more mistake or shortcoming to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. Her subconscious therefore works 24/7 to protect her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting all hurtful feelings and bad thoughts onto the other person in the room (YOU).

 

Because this projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she will truly believe -- at a conscious level -- that those hurtful feelings and thoughts are originating from YOU. This is why, with a BPDer, you can be accused of upsetting her even if you sit absolutely still, don't say a thing, and don't move a muscle. Simply by being in the room means that bad thoughts will be projected onto you.

 

Im getting to the point im about to give up even trying to make her happy. Nothing works.

Like I said, you're trying to fill up the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun -- if she is a BPDer.

 

She is also incredibly insecure and VERY VERY VERY needy. She either needs to be around me or hear from me all the time via text or call. I know this is a sign of immaturity....

If your GF is a BPDer, she likely is far more immature than you can imagine. A BPDer typically has the emotional development of a four year old. This is why BPDers cannot control their emotions and are fully reliant on the ego defenses available to young children. These include, e.g., temper tantrums, projection, magical thinking, black-white thinking, and denial.

 

The thing is I really really do love her and she swears she loves me so much and wants to get married and all this stuff.

If your GF were a full-blown narcissist or sociopath, such claims would be false and done only to manipulate you. If she is a BPDer, however, she very likely does love you intensely -- albeit in the very immature way that a young child is able to love. Such love can be passionate and intense but it falls far short of what is required to maintain a close adult relationship.

 

I figure she will grow out of the needy phase and immature phase eventually.

I hope you're right. That is, I hope her BPD traits are only at a mild level. Yet, if she is a 25-year-old with strong BPD traits, she is already grown. Any substantial improvement in emotional maturity will require years of professional guidance and a strong desire to improve on her part.

 

Most major cities offer excellent treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) that teach BPDers the emotional skills they had no opportunity to learn in childhood. But, sadly, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness (to recognize she has the problem) and ego strength (to work hard for years) that are required to be successful.

 

I really want to make this work because when things are good they are incredible and like nothing I have ever experienced.... she is the sweetest and most caring of them all.

My experience is that high functioning BPDers are very easy to fall in love with. They exhibit a warmth and purity of expression that otherwise is only seen in young children. Generally, they are compassionate and caring and only show their dark side when you come close enough to start triggering their two great fears. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both exhibited full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

It drives me nuts.... Its like my head explodes.

That's exactly how you should be feeling -- if you've been living with a BPDer for nearly a year. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

Its not that she just feels upset about feeling unloved. Its that she gets cold and pushes me away until the next day.... She doesn't want to be touched and is kinda bitchy even if I am trying to be good to her and make her feel more loved.

As I said earlier, BPDers alternate between pulling you in with love bombing and pushing you away. What typically happens is that, during intimacy, a BPDer starts feeling suffocated, controlled, and engulfed. Significantly, those feelings are large subconscious. The subconscious therefore protects her fragile ego by projecting all those "unhappy" feelings onto YOU. The result is that, at a conscious level, she truly believes that you MUST be doing something wrong or she wouldn't be experiencing such an unpleasant feeling.

 

Sometimes BPDers will express their anger with passive aggression, e.g., by cold withdrawal or icy silence and sulking. Other times they will express the anger directly, e.g., in the form of a hissy fit or temper tantrum which typically lasts several hours (but sometimes as long as 18 hours).

 

I was kinda shocked and asked if she thought this was good advice for her. She said no this is for you! ....How can she not see that she is going completely against her own quote? Its so obvious.

It is not obvious to her if she is a BPDer. BPD is said to be a "thought distortion" because the BPDer frequently experiences feelings so intense that they distort her perception of your intentions and motivations. Actually, this type of thought distortion occurs to all of whenever we experience very intense feelings.

 

BPDers differ from the rest of us, then, only by degree. They experience these distortions far more frequently. Consequently, as is true of young children, BPDers have one set of rules for themselves and another set for everyone else. And, because BPDers and young children are emotionally unstable, BOTH sets of rules will change every time they experience a new set of intense feelings.

 

After her ex she didnt date for 3 years. She is beautiful but ive seen her history with guys trying to date her and she completely dismisses them without giving a chance.

If accurate, this behavior of not wanting to date is contrary to what should be expected from a BPDer. Because BPDers have weak self identities, they need someone around who has a strong stable personality. This is why BPDers typically HATE to be alone.

 

Hence, if your GF really does exhibit strong BPD traits, I am puzzled that she seemed content to be by herself for three years. Perhaps she doesn't have strong BPD traits. Or, if she does, perhaps someone (like an older sister or BFF) supplied that need for an identity. Or perhaps she was dating more often than you know about.

 

So how can I validate her feelings?

If your GF has only mild to moderate BPD traits, you can improve things somewhat by using the validation techniques discussed in books like Stop Walking on Eggshells. If her traits are strong, however, my experience is that all the validation in the world is not going to make any difference in the long run (unless she works hard for years in therapy).

 

Whats going on? How can I UNDERSTAND?

Given your reluctance to leave her, my advice is that you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you're dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join Expat, Emilia, and the other respondents in discussing them with you.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your GF's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you decide whether your situation is sufficiently serious to warrant spending money on professional guidance. Moreover, learning these red flags may help you avoid a very painful experience, e.g., remaining in a toxic R/S or running into the arms of another woman just like her. Take care, JR.

[jrharvey]

DOWNTOWN,

Thank you for this incredible post. I have done a lot of BPD research already and I would have to say I already had that fear she had this disorder. It makes me sick to think about because if true there is nothing I can do. I had hoped so badly that she was just normal and I was doing something wrong or there was something I could fix but it doesn't seem that way. I will read the books you recommended and see what I can do.

[JoeSmith357-1]

The thing that drives me nuts is she tells me she is very happy and very in love. She says we have a great relationship.

 

It's similar with cheaters. One minute they will tell you to your face that they love you, want to spend the rest of their lives together with you, are very affectionate and sexual. Then 5 minutes later they are in the bathroom sexting and exchanging nudes with some other dude

 

Some bitches be crazy