Emilia Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 Sorry if I wasn't clear. I think the relationship between my wife and HER mother is a bit of a weird one, as you picked up on earlier. I think maybe this has had SOME impact on my kids as they have clearly chosen me as the go-to parent in the household. Who knows why kids act the way they do. But I don't think that my wife's difficulties maintaining long term friendships ( without hassles ) necessarily creates a bad environment for my kids. They have it pretty good, and seem to appreciate it. They asked her once about why she doesn't have as many friends as I do, and she gave them the same line about how she has a few really good ones, and not a bunch of superficial ones. The reason why they run to you - despite the fact that you are away a lot - is that they don't have a good rapport with their mother. That's because she isn't capable of maintaining intimate relationships. 'intimate' being used loosely here, meaning 'emotionally mutually involved'. Her burning her friendships is just one sign. Clearly it's all about her, the depression and the long talks as you said. She is very pre-occupied with herself, that's how I guessed that her mother had been keeping her infantile. Also by the fact that she doesn't appear to be capable of doing anything right. I don't know what happened with the affair and I'm not about to search now but I would have thought that would have been a good opportunity to remove the children from this sort of environment and give them a more balanced home life. Away from someone who clearly doesn't love them. I think you know very well why your kids do what they do and I think you are partly to blame. The parent that stands by and enables is responsible just as much.
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 Your idea that she would be happier if she had more friends is YOUR idea... not hers. Not everyone is happy having tons of friends. Yep. I get that it's my idea. And I get that it's also my attempt to "fix" her issue - or at least what I think is an issue. I went through the same issue when I was married. He had tons of friends and was always off doing one thing or another without me. Sure he'd invite me, but most of the time, he was off doing other things without me. I didn't have a lot of friends then and I still don't. I am just really picky about who I want to spend time with. I'd rather get to know a few people really well than a lot of people superficially. It's exhausting to spend time around a crowd of people when you aren't a crowd kind of person. He spent so much time off doing other stuff that he forgot to pay attention to me. Are you doing that to your wife? It seems to me that you are pretty annoyed with who she is overall because you don't have many good things to say about her. Thanks for this. And sure, there are a million nice things I could say about my wife. But today I came to whine about one aspect of our relationship that is bothering me. Even then, I did say that she is smart, beautiful, athletic, and that my friends adore her, that in some ways she is better with the kids than I, and that I love her very much, and am concerned. My brother is a lot like my wife. He doesn't have many friends either, and is much quicker to say no to an invite than yes. I hate seeing him miss out on so much, because I truly feel like he'd have a great time if he just came with us. And that's the thing...when my wife does come, she is showered with attention and praise from my friends, many of whom really look up to her, and we always have a great time. If you asked her to name the last 20 fun time she can remember, I swear to you 18 of them would be things I dragged her to. I just wish I didn't have to always drag, you know? And it would be nice for me if she introduced us to some new people and experiences too. Because I honestly can think of maybe 10 people she's introduced me to in the 20 years I've known her. And of course 7 of them have been cut out since then.
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 The reason why they run to you - despite the fact that you are away a lot - is that they don't have a good rapport with their mother. That's because she isn't capable of maintaining intimate relationships. 'intimate' being used loosely here, meaning 'emotionally mutually involved'. Maybe. She always says it's because they are boys, and it would be different if we had girls. I just tell her if we had girls, the only way anyone would know would be because of the long hair sticking out from under their dirtbike helmets.
BettyDraper Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 THank you. I completely value the input. Yeah... I still don't like the term one bit. I think it's weak to suggest that enjoying life's many exciting experiences is somehow tied to fear of any kind. I don't have a fear of missing out. Sure, I have a dislike for missing out, but I mean...what's the alternative? Do have an affinity for missing out on everything? I just don't get it. I would agree with this, if my wife wasn't so consistently upset with her best friend du jour for one reason or another. I don't think MY lifestyle is any better than hers.... I just think hers isn't working for her very well. This is another one that bugs me. I often hear this and never understand it. I don't feel like I have a huge amount of superficial friendships at all. I feel like I have a LOT of really great, close, active, awesome friends. And very lucky to have them. The more friends you have, the less time you have to enjoy one on one conversations and time to truly get to know each other. It's possible that your definition of friendship is different from mine and of course most men do not have emotional discussions with their friends. Maybe a friend in your mind is someone that you enjoy activities and fun times with. That is part of the definition of friendship for me as well but I also need the emotional connection to be able to share personal topics at times. I don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand and accept certain aspects of what drives others to make friends or choose to spend their free time in different ways. Very few things in life are black and white. That includes leisure time and friendships. Your wife's need for attention is definitely unhealthy and I don't blame you for being concerned about that. Has she ever seen a therapist about this problem? Her constant desire for ego stroking and reassurance seems very childish. Maybe your wife is too enmeshed with her mother and she transfers those feelings to her friendships as well.
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 Your post doesn't indicate how much effort you've made to find a similar common ground... Mr. Lucky I do try. I really do. We tried to find a television show that we can both "get into" but the same things happens every time. We'll watch like two episodes together, I'll go surfing or something, and when I come back, she has binge watched like 6 episodes and I can never catch up. lol. She also likes concerts, so I go with her to those even if it's some band I'm not into. And dinners out. As I mentioned she's pretty good at her job, and one perk is she is always winning these fancy trips, so we go to nice places, and I've learned to just relax by the pool, and fight my natural urge to try to see the entire country in 5 days. This is not an easy thing for me at all. But try as I might, I just can't make myself sit through any show involving real housewives, or Kardashians. So that time is her "alone" time.
BettyDraper Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 Yep. I get that it's my idea. And I get that it's also my attempt to "fix" her issue - or at least what I think is an issue. Thanks for this. And sure, there are a million nice things I could say about my wife. But today I came to whine about one aspect of our relationship that is bothering me. Even then, I did say that she is smart, beautiful, athletic, and that my friends adore her, that in some ways she is better with the kids than I, and that I love her very much, and am concerned. My brother is a lot like my wife. He doesn't have many friends either, and is much quicker to say no to an invite than yes. I hate seeing him miss out on so much, because I truly feel like he'd have a great time if he just came with us. And that's the thing...when my wife does come, she is showered with attention and praise from my friends, many of whom really look up to her, and we always have a great time. If you asked her to name the last 20 fun time she can remember, I swear to you 18 of them would be things I dragged her to. I just wish I didn't have to always drag, you know? And it would be nice for me if she introduced us to some new people and experiences too. Because I honestly can think of maybe 10 people she's introduced me to in the 20 years I've known her. And of course 7 of them have been cut out since then. Just because someone chooses to keep to himself, it doesn't mean that he is missing out on life. I don't know why you have the impression that the activities you enjoy are what should make other people happy. It seems like you are expecting your wife to be someone she is not and that isn't going to work out in the long run. Give her the freedom to be herself but do look at helping your wife work on her desperate thirst for attention and praise. Everybody wants and needs attention but it seems like your wife requires way too much.
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 The more friends you have, the less time you have to enjoy one on one conversations and time to truly get to know each other. It's possible that your definition of friendship is different from mine and of course most men do not have emotional discussions with their friends. Maybe a friend in your mind is someone that you enjoy activities and fun times with. That is part of the definition of friendship for me as well but I also need the emotional connection to be able to share personal topics at times. I'm sure our definitions vary to some extent, but I will just say that I know what a good, close friend is, and I have a bunch of them. I also have a lot of sports buddies, and activity partners, who I really enjoy, and in time I'm sure will become good close friends. Takes years. I don't understand why it is so hard for you to understand and accept certain aspects of what drives others to make friends or choose to spend their free time in different ways. Very few things in life are black and white. That includes leisure time and friendships. Oh I get it. And I accept it. But I don't have to like it do I? I'm saying I "wish" it were another way. But know that it comes from a place of concern. I wish it were another way, because the way it is....it aint working. Your wife's need for attention is definitely unhealthy and I don't blame you for being concerned about that. Has she ever seen a therapist about this problem? Her constant desire for ego stroking and reassurance seems very childish. Maybe your wife is too enmeshed with her mother and she transfers those feelings to her friendships as well. You ready for the punchline? Her mother is a renowned psychoanalyst. i'm not kidding. She literally wrote the book. At least one of the books that is used in the trainings at PINC. Yeah... I know.... it's crazy. Aside from that, yes. She did go to therapy awhile back, and then MC after the affair came to light. She knows she needs a ridiculous amount of attention, is working on that. Her current friendship has lasted a lot longer than those of the past, and I am grateful for that.
BettyDraper Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 I do try. I really do. We tried to find a television show that we can both "get into" but the same things happens every time. We'll watch like two episodes together, I'll go surfing or something, and when I come back, she has binge watched like 6 episodes and I can never catch up. lol. She also likes concerts, so I go with her to those even if it's some band I'm not into. And dinners out. As I mentioned she's pretty good at her job, and one perk is she is always winning these fancy trips, so we go to nice places, and I've learned to just relax by the pool, and fight my natural urge to try to see the entire country in 5 days. This is not an easy thing for me at all. But try as I might, I just can't make myself sit through any show involving real housewives, or Kardashians. So that time is her "alone" time. I can see why you wouldn't be able to sit through mindless reality tv. 98% of what is on tv is garbage and the world gives far too much attention to vapid reality tv "stars". Since you are willing to take your wife out for dinner and go to concerns with her, your wife should also be willing to do what you enjoy once in awhile as well. Many years ago, I dated a man who forced me to go to loud and crowded clubs to see bands or go to concerts when I just wanted to stay home and read. We always ended up fighting at the end of the night because I deeply resented being forced to go places that I didn't want to. He didn't care what my needs were in many ways and dragging me to these events were a manifestation of his selfishness. I'm telling you this story to illustrate what happens when couples refuse to accept different levels of social interaction. 2
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 Just because someone chooses to keep to himself, it doesn't mean that he is missing out on life. He's missing out. He probably plays video games 6-7 hours a day, and often through the night. That, to me, is not living.
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 I can see why you wouldn't be able to sit through mindless reality tv. 98% of what is on tv is garbage and the world gives far too much attention to vapid reality tv "stars". AHA! See?!? So it IS possible to judge someone's free time activities! That's all I'm saying.
BettyDraper Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 I'm sure our definitions vary to some extent, but I will just say that I know what a good, close friend is, and I have a bunch of them. I also have a lot of sports buddies, and activity partners, who I really enjoy, and in time I'm sure will become good close friends. Takes years. Oh I get it. And I accept it. But I don't have to like it do I? I'm saying I "wish" it were another way. But know that it comes from a place of concern. I wish it were another way, because the way it is....it aint working. You ready for the punchline? Her mother is a renowned psychoanalyst. i'm not kidding. She literally wrote the book. At least one of the books that is used in the trainings at PINC. Yeah... I know.... it's crazy. Aside from that, yes. She did go to therapy awhile back, and then MC after the affair came to light. She knows she needs a ridiculous amount of attention, is working on that. Her current friendship has lasted a lot longer than those of the past, and I am grateful for that. No, you don't have to like the fact that other people attain happiness in different ways than you. However, it would make sense to be more tolerant of the varying ways that others choose to relate to the world around them. Everyone is not required to be like you. It takes all kinds. Oh wow...goes to show that many people who choose careers in psychology or psychiatry are no more emotionally sound than the rest of us. I guess your MIL could use some help herself if she has raised such a dependent woman who cuddles with her on the couch in matching pajamas. That is so creepy to me. If your wife was a 5 year old then that scene would be cute. Perhaps your wife needs to return to therapy. When your wife had her affair, did she express that she felt lonely and forgotten by you? I'm wondering if that was truly the case or if your wife was smothering you with her bottomless pit of need. 1
BettyDraper Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) AHA! See?!? So it IS possible to judge someone's free time activities! That's all I'm saying. What I said was that it didn't make sense to assume that everyone should enjoy the same activities that you like. If other women love to watch reality shows, I'm not going to say that they ought to do other things just because I don't like to watch a lot of tv. That would be presumptuous and arrogant of me. If all you gleaned from my post was an erroneous belief that free time activities cannot be judged, it appears that you are not focusing on the true intent of my post. This has become about winning or losing an imaginary argument even though I am merely trying to get you to see how your beliefs may not be helpful. As for your brother, I agree that playing video games all day is not living but I would never expect a grown adult to change their lifestyle just because it isn't the same as mine. Edited June 20, 2016 by BettyDraper 1
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 Oh wow...goes to show that many people who choose careers in psychology or psychiatry are no more emotionally sound than the rest of us. You don't know the half of it. She is on her 3rd marriage to a closeted gay man ( also a therapist ) who is on his FOURTH marriage, and in my opinion only making this one work because she is pretty much asexual. And their practice? Marriage and Family Therapy. But I digress.. When your wife had her affair, did she express that she felt lonely and forgotten by you? I'm wondering if that was truly the case or if your wife was smothering you with her bottomless pit of need. She had her affair 90 days after we got married, during what was probably the closest, most enjoyable, most romantic time in our lives together. If we weren't travelling, or honeymooning, or fixing up our new house together we were making love or throwing a party. I was truly baffled to learn the timeline. Prior to knowing this, I would have said this time was the best time of our lives. And her affair was totally awkward and sexually dysfunctional. ugh... let's change the subject.
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 20, 2016 Author Posted June 20, 2016 If all you gleaned from my post was an erroneous belief that free time activities cannot be judged, it appears that you are not focusing on the true intent of my post. This has become about winning or losing an imaginary argument even though I am merely trying to get you to see how your beliefs may not be helpful. I was just making a little fun.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 I wish my wife had more friends. To steer the thread back to your original topic, I'll just say deep down inside I'll bet she wishes she had more friends too... Mr. Lucky
BettyDraper Posted June 20, 2016 Posted June 20, 2016 You don't know the half of it. She is on her 3rd marriage to a closeted gay man ( also a therapist ) who is on his FOURTH marriage, and in my opinion only making this one work because she is pretty much asexual. And their practice? Marriage and Family Therapy. But I digress.. She had her affair 90 days after we got married, during what was probably the closest, most enjoyable, most romantic time in our lives together. If we weren't travelling, or honeymooning, or fixing up our new house together we were making love or throwing a party. I was truly baffled to learn the timeline. Prior to knowing this, I would have said this time was the best time of our lives. And her affair was totally awkward and sexually dysfunctional. ugh... let's change the subject. What a circus your MIL's life is. Maybe that's why she needs to keep her daughter in an infantilized state. Sorry that I reminded you of a terrible time in your marriage. I was trying to understand what makes your wife tick. How do you plan on getting your wife to make more friends?
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 To steer the thread back to your original topic, I'll just say deep down inside I'll bet she wishes she had more friends too... Mr. Lucky I think you're right. She definitely has a desire to be admired by all, and has a very difficult time of it when she feels that someone doesn't like her. She gets REALLY offended whenever she feels she is being judged for any reason, quickly cuts those folks loose in favor of someone who only will sing her praises. I used to struggle with that a bit myself as a teen. It really bothered me a great deal when someone didn't find me completely hilarious and interesting, lol. And I found myself working way too hard to get those folks to see the light, and realize how wonderful I was. Seems funny now... I sometimes wonder if it's just her inability to deal with not achieving 100% acceptance and admiration that outweighs her desire to get out there and mingle. Because when I do drag her out there, she excels, and seems to enjoy it.
holyrolypoly Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Maybe she's refusing to go places to spite you. Like others have noted, you seem to be looking down on her, trying to change her, and seeing her as inferior to you. Accept that she's different from you. Be sincere and kind. "It would mean a lot to me if you came to this event with me. I understand you need your alone time to recharge, so I won't ask you to anything else this week, but this event means a lot to me, and I'd be happy to go with you to the next concert you choose" or something. If you're saying it more like "come out with me and this huge group of men. You're making me look bad by not coming with me. Me, me, me. All you do is spend time fighting with Karen, being babied by your mom, and watching Real Housewives. Why don't you get out and LIVE, like me, you slug?" 2
BettyDraper Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Maybe she's refusing to go places to spite you. Like others have noted, you seem to be looking down on her, trying to change her, and seeing her as inferior to you. Accept that she's different from you. Be sincere and kind. "It would mean a lot to me if you came to this event with me. I understand you need your alone time to recharge, so I won't ask you to anything else this week, but this event means a lot to me, and I'd be happy to go with you to the next concert you choose" or something. If you're saying it more like "come out with me and this huge group of men. You're making me look bad by not coming with me. Me, me, me. All you do is spend time fighting with Karen, being babied by your mom, and watching Real Housewives. Why don't you get out and LIVE, like me, you slug?" You're right. It should also be noted that the OP's wife is doing the same thing when she takes shots at his friends and rejects them for many reasons.
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 Maybe she's refusing to go places to spite you. Like others have noted, you seem to be looking down on her, trying to change her, and seeing her as inferior to you. Accept that she's different from you. Be sincere and kind. "It would mean a lot to me if you came to this event with me. I understand you need your alone time to recharge, so I won't ask you to anything else this week, but this event means a lot to me, and I'd be happy to go with you to the next concert you choose" or something. If you're saying it more like "come out with me and this huge group of men. You're making me look bad by not coming with me. Me, me, me. All you do is spend time fighting with Karen, being babied by your mom, and watching Real Housewives. Why don't you get out and LIVE, like me, you slug?" I know it's hard to paint a complete picture in a forum like this, and I really am just whining about MY side of it. But our communication is actually pretty good. And I don't look down on her or feel superior in any way. I love her, and I get frustrated when I see her do things to herself ( and by extension, all of us ) over and over and over again. Her dependence on a single friend for all of her social needs is, in my opinion, unrealistic and unhealthy, and this is evidenced by her repeated failures to nurture long term friendships. I think I am allowed to feel this way. And as mentioned, I was ok with it until she started making me feel like I'm the one with the issue. Aside from some of the stuff I post on here, I am a very happy person with a great life. I wouldn't trade places with anyone. She, on the other hand, has started criticizing me a bit for something I'm actually quite proud of. And suggesting ( as have others here ) that my friendships are somehow more superficial than hers, and as such, less important. I know I can't change her. But if she was eating one flavor of ice cream all day everyday and getting fat and depressed, while I was easing grilled chicken and fish and steak and salad and feeling great and exercising and happy and energized.... shouldn't I suggest she at least give it a try? Because it's working for me? And make no mistake, she is depressed. I should have mentioned it earlier, but she takes anti-anxiety meds, and I'm pretty sure an anti-depressant from time to time. My anti-depressant has handlebars and a 450cc engine. Works everytime, and the only side effects are sometimes some bumps and bruises.
Mr. Lucky Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 I think you're right. She definitely has a desire to be admired by all, and has a very difficult time of it when she feels that someone doesn't like her. That makes her like most people I know - including me. Could this be that you wished she was more admiring of YOU and what sounds like your considerable accomplishments in your chosen fields ??? That would also be an understandable feeling. Having been on teams that have played for sectional and national championships in our age group in softball and tennis, I've occasionally been jealous of those guys who's wives spent many hours cheering them on. Mine isn't like that (she'll go once or twice a year) but also is very understanding of my participation. The glass is half full ... Mr. Lucky
holyrolypoly Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 I understand you are trying to help her, but YOU don't see how judgmental you come off. Your wife is probably reacting to the holier-than-thou tone in your voice when she criticizes you. She probably feels insecure and put down by you and she's lashing out by doing the same to you, but explicitly, using her words. If your communication is so great, why aren't you talking to your wife instead of us? Why don't you ask her why she doesn't want to go? It seems like you came here for assurance that you are right and she is wrong, and you're not getting it. It seems like you're using the well-being of your wife, marriage, and family as a smokescreen for your true concern: being right. Your words in the earlier posts were absolutely, completely dripping with disdain. You've toned it down in later posts, but your feelings of superiority are still extremely obvious. If it shows that much in your writing, imagine how it's magnified in the tone of your voice, your facial expressions, and your body language. If your wife has problems with anxiety and depression, berating and criticizing her won't help, but will only make things worse. From here, you look like an overbearing bully, and I'd avoid you, too. In light of her mental health issues, I'd have to say that in addition to being insensitive, arrogant, and superior, you're also being pretty cruel. My anti-depressant has handlebars and a 450cc engine. Works everytime, and the only side effects are sometimes some bumps and bruises. That's pretty smug and disgusting. Or maybe you're just ignorant. Stop harassing the poor lady. It sounds like you're doing more damage than her weird friendships. You've told her you're concerned for her and why. If you think she has a serious problem, maybe suggest counseling, instead of trying to force her to attend your social engagements. You've told her you're concerned for her and why, now leave her alone. 4
holyrolypoly Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Don't get me wrong, her pattern of friendships seems unhealthy, certainly. But I also think she would be more likely to change (when or if she becomes ready) with the support of a kind, patient, and caring husband. No one can be forced to change, even if they have a serious problem. Hers seems more like a "mention it, check in from time to time, and leave it" kind of problem. Unless she tells you "I wish I had more friends," it's not really on you to get involved, as other posters have mentioned.
Emilia Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 It's about codependence and enabling in this marriage. an extremely damaging environment for the kids, growing up with these parents as role models.
Author TrustedthenBusted Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 That makes her like most people I know - including me. Could this be that you wished she was more admiring of YOU and what sounds like your considerable accomplishments in your chosen fields ??? That would also be an understandable feeling. Nah, I really don't think it's this. She is actually very complimentary of me personally, and is a big fan in general. I agree with you that most people want to be liked. I think what makes her stand out a bit is how she handles the folks who inevitably don't. I know I'm coming across as a bit selfish on this. And maybe I am. But I really just want her to be happy, even if selfishly, I want that so I can be happier myself. It's hard watching someone you love struggle, and over time, having to be the person who bears the weight of aftermath of these failed friendships also gets tiresome. I've really tried to understand anxiety and depression over the last 10 or so years. I really have. It's her, most of her family, a lot of her BFFs...etc. Everyone is on one med or another, ya know? I understand it. I get that it's not intentional and is a sickness. But still, sometimes I just want to shout " Can you all just like...NOT be sick for like a week please?" UNfair? Totally. But everyone has their limits no?
Recommended Posts