The New Shame?

[nordic]

A recent post in "Addicted to cheating on my wife" thread has reminded of past discussions which still haunt me & make reconciliation really hard for me.

 

The basic premise....

 

MM states that he cheated on his wife, once or repeatedly. Come D-day his wife doesn't leave. He looses respect for her, "If she was strong she would dump me!". In the past a member stated that he would always view his wife as being weak, pathetic because no self respecting person would stay in a marriage filled with adultery...His OW had long gone because he couldn't make a decision!

 

Esther Perel stated, "Staying is the new shame."

 

I often feel this way. Maybe I shouldn't read some of the forums here!! As a young woman I firmly believed that if any man treated me with such disrespect he wouldn't see me for dust!

 

Do cheating MM loose respect for wives that don't file for divorce? It haunts me.

 

Staying has taken more strength than I believed I could ever muster but now I'm feeling like a total looser to be honest. I've lost my faith, dreams, beliefs. I've lost so much of myself. Now I read MM/WS who have the audacity to consider their bs weak. WTF?!?!? Does the pain & humiliation ever end? It's beyond isolating & degrading.

 

i can calm you down here.

 

no, men dont feel like that. sex is sex, if a good looking girl offers sex we will take the opportunity. it has no connection to our wives, none.

 

therefore she is left out of it completely.

 

men dont leave there wives coz a girl chooses to have sex with them, its a completely different thing.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I stayed. We are not reconciled but working on it. Some days are better than others. I often feel pathetic too, it's not linear. I've tried to articulate my reasons for staying to myself and to my therapist. I do not feel strong for my decision, yet I don't feel others who stay are weak at all. Here goes, in no particular (or exhaustive) order: I still love my husband. My kids begged me to try to work it out, at least try. I'll be damned if I'm going to see my kids for less time as a result of his decision to break the family unit, I've been a sahm for 18 years and I've never chosen another person over my kids, and frankly the result of my time with them has yielded huge returns as far as setting their futures in motion. I'm pretty flipping proud of them, I don't want to be told when I can see them. I appreciate the life I have, why should my situation change? If he was so miserable, he's free to go. This wasn't a love affair, which I think would be harder for me, it was the Union of an ego bruised boss and his employee - 2 icky people with no self respect. I'd never felt that disconnect in my marriage before, so I do believe this was a one-off situation. He confessed and documented everything. He told family and friends and took full responsibility, and knows he's accountable to people who love us. I believe all people are capable of affairs, not only monsters (serial cheating is a different animal), and I'm not above my husband, we are who we are due to the choices we've made. No one who knows me or us has taken me aside and said they believed I was making a mistake in staying. I didn't make my wh cheat - he was treating me like poo and I managed to make decisions that benefitted me and our family, not decisions to find ego stroking. He knows the affair is a result of his actions and choices only. He moved us very very far away from where this all happened.

 

The reasons I have for leaving are fewer: the specialness is gone from our story and history. I'll never have unconditional trust for him or anyone again. Sometimes the hurt overwhelms me and I want to run away and hide. I'm so ashamed and humiliated by what happened. The embarrassment kills me. I don't know if anyone in this world has my back. He brought a toxic disorder into my life - one I would never have encountered or interacted with. Ever. I sometimes can't look at him thinking that he chose to be with such a grotesque mess - I don't want to be associated with her in any way, and I am.

 

Some days I feel like I've got this, some days I still cry. It's coming up on about 2 yrs. Like when the mow shows up on my social media, or when I'm triggered by something. I think working on reconciling takes work every day - work and time that could have been used on protecting our marriage instead of putting it towards another relationship. Imagine what we would have had now.

 

I cannot speak for John...but in my mind....I imagine that he felt exactly the way you have described...I am almost certain of it

 

I want to offer this word of encouragement and hope to you..at two years out...which i know seems like a lifetime...I think you are doing remarkable.

 

I am willing to bet at 33 years out..John may still struggle from time to time internally with these same issues.

 

But I can tell you this...I believe that our love is stronger...and one of the reasons I believe this is because it has weathered this storm...the sails may have been tattered...but together we have maintained it and stitched it back together. We are more aware and watchful..to never allow it to be torn apart again.

 

We know this old ship of love we sail...and while we may look at how our love was young and new and shiny and bright...this one...is one we cherish...

 

I pray for you Missy...that the love rekindled from the embers of your first love together...will grow into beautiful everlasting flames.It takes work and diligence to fan those flames ...but your love can blaze again...strong and hot...and it can overcome.

 

Time my love...give it time. In the scheme of a lifetime....two years is so short.

 

It sounds like you have a wonderful helpmate....and while i know he destroyed your world...he is there to help you rebuild it. He knows it is his responsibility to help you build what he destroyed...brick by brick.

 

Hugs to you my Midwest friend....

[wmacbride]

A recent post in "Addicted to cheating on my wife" thread has reminded of past discussions which still haunt me & make reconciliation really hard for me.

 

The basic premise....

 

MM states that he cheated on his wife, once or repeatedly. Come D-day his wife doesn't leave. He looses respect for her, "If she was strong she would dump me!". In the past a member stated that he would always view his wife as being weak, pathetic because no self respecting person would stay in a marriage filled with adultery...His OW had long gone because he couldn't make a decision!

 

Esther Perel stated, "Staying is the new shame."

 

I often feel this way. Maybe I shouldn't read some of the forums here!! As a young woman I firmly believed that if any man treated me with such disrespect he wouldn't see me for dust!

 

Do cheating MM loose respect for wives that don't file for divorce? It haunts me.

 

Staying has taken more strength than I believed I could ever muster but now I'm feeling like a total looser to be honest. I've lost my faith, dreams, beliefs. I've lost so much of myself. Now I read MM/WS who have the audacity to consider their bs weak. WTF?!?!? Does the pain & humiliation ever end? It's beyond isolating & degrading.

 

I know it's hard, but try and look at your life objectively. You have had some huge weights placed only our shoulders, yet you are able to continue to kep going, not just for yourself but for your children as well.

 

Not only are you able to keep going you have ben able to take some time from your day to try and help others, even if it's just with a kind word.

 

What you have been through would have broken a lot of people, but it didn't break you, but you know what? Even if it had, that is no reflection on you as a person, and should not be sued to measure your self worth.

 

As for feeling like you are being judged for staying? All I can say is that you're right. There are people who will judge you harshly fort hat. there are others who would judge you just as harshly if you left.

 

One thing I have learned is that to some people, to matter what a bs does it's going to be wrong. sometimes, it's the ws who feels that way. In my humble opinion, it's perfectly okay to tell anyone and everyone who gives you a hard time about your choices to F off and take care of their on messed up life before sticking their nose into yours.

[wmacbride]

Dichotomy. Quote - "what life awaits them if the stay or leave - and choose the best (or least worst) choice for them.".

 

When you're a mother & a daughter that becomes more complicated. When you don't know how long you will live for its more complicated. When you couldn't sit through an interview, let alone do a job because your pain makes you collapse it's more complicated.

 

What's the "least worst choice" for a whole family that's crippled by tragedy trying to hold on desperately to what remains? What's the "least worse choice" when specialists can't identify the source of the "glandular cancer cells" in your body? When top surgeons tell you there's nothing to be done so you live in 24/7 pain & you fight constantly to hide your agony from everyone & it's still not good enough?

 

What support are all of those people on the Internet who are touched by the way I write going to be to my orphaned kids?

 

How am I not effected by the views of the person I've shared my whole adult life with? shared 26 years of my life with? The love of my WHOLE life?

 

When ALL you want is to be home with your ailing parents but a day spent sorting the house leaves you in such agony that you can hardly move for the rest of the week?

 

When you reach out to a couple of people IRL & they make you feel pathetic for not "Being STRONG", leaving & going where? Home to my parents getting close to 80 years old? Home to care for your Dad who's loosing his memory & your Mum who's had heart surgery when you can just about care for yourself & your kids? Home to a council house waiting list & disability allowance? A H who dreams of being a drop-out not earning so no child or spouse allowance?

 

Not to mention the suicide threats if I leave after watching my niece & nephews become broken delinquents after their fathers, my brothers suicide? That's exactly the future I want for my babies!!!

 

On this forum we advise this fantasy.... "Set them free to find someone who will truly love them". Ok how many men here go to dating sites & request divorced, crippled, chronic pain, middle aged cancer patients with young kids? REALLY??

 

It's a REALLY bad day! I just asked if MM have contempt for bs who stay. I have contempt for me!! Why wouldn't they??

 

 

I think I can understand where you are coming from. There are times when I hate myself and my body for letting my children down, for letting my spouse down, for letting everyone else down, for letting me down.

 

I can't say for sure, but from what you have shared about your story, I think you husband would have cheated anyway, and that is not your fault. He cheated because of something inside him, and you have no real power to change that.

 

He didn't cheat because you were ll, or on pain meds., or wiped out tired and in pain all the time. He cheated because he wanted to and something in him told him that it as okay to do so.

 

You could have been a combination of martha stewart/porn star/ beauty queen with the intelligence of steven hawkings and he still would have cheated. he would have had the urge and acted on it. you didn't push him to do it.

 

I'm not saying that he wasn't under pressure too, but he had choices, and he choice to handle his stress by turning to another woman. That is not your fault. That is 100 percent on him.

 

If he can't handle the guilt/shame or annoyance he feels because he has to face responsibility for his choices, then he's acting like a little boy, a child.

 

Has he allowed you to be angry with him, or does he try and brush your feelings under the carpet?

Edited June 16, 2016 by wmacbride

[NTV]

I don't really feel shame for what she did or for sharing. If it were the 1300's, I'd say the family name had been besmudged.

 

 

I don't feel shame for staying, because well... I selfishly want to see my kids every day. My WW's actions haven't yet (and god willing never will) outweigh that desire.

 

 

No, the shame I feel is mostly from facing the reality that I chose the wrong spouse to begin with. That's a mistake I'm essentially living with, right?

 

 

But then again there's not time machine. I'm working on trying to manifest the Butterfly Effect, but not successful so far. If one of you have done it, let me know you're secret. Between my search to go back in time and my search for immortality, I'm coming up with nada lol.

[Bittersweetie]

I look at my H and see a tremendous amount of strength for staying with me after what I did. He was strong enough to give me a second chance. He was strong enough to create and enforce boundaries with me in order for him to feel safe while he decided how to move forward. He was strong enough to listen to me and encourage me to become a better and healthier person. He was strong enough to tell me exactly what he felt and thought about my actions. He was strong enough to tell me exactly what he needed from me.

 

To be honest I admire him more than anyone else in the world, because I hurt him in the worst possible way and he handled it and himself with strength and dignity. He is just an overall amazing person.

 

I just wanted you to know that not all WS see their BS as weak. For me it is quite the opposite.

[understand50]

 

It's a REALLY bad day! I just asked if MM have contempt for bs who stay. I have contempt for me!! Why wouldn't they??

 

SL,

 

I can see, as you do, how what you have gone through has given you a hit to your sense of self. "What type of person must I be to have put up with this?" "Why could I not just walk away and be strong?"

 

You are second guessing your decision to stay. That's is OK, we all do. Would life be better if I had told her, "we are done, and gotten on the buss" or " this is the end, can not stay married with what you have done" The thing is, we will really never know. What we have to deal with, is what we have now, who we are with, and remind ourself's that it is worth it, and was when we gave the GIFT of reconciliation.

 

I have stated, along with others, that reconciliation is harder then just divorcing, and is not for the faint of heart. Along with your WS's betrayal, you have your medical issues. Life is not as you imagined it when you were young. It is something everyone morns for in their own life. You need to look upon what you have gone trough not as something shameful, but as something heroic. Not many people could have done what you have done and persevered. It was, and is a hard thing. You stuck to it, despite all that happened, all that your health put on you, and all that life in general handed you. You are still standing, and your kids, and your husband all are with you. Look what you have accomplished, and see pride in doing so. Your kids have a home, and you both have a marriage.

 

I have read several posts of your where you describe what your husband does for you, and how he helps you. You may not have the perfect marriage, does anybody?, but you have a functioning one. One that can be worked on, one that is real. Try and see the better part of it, past the cheating, past what was. Look to the better future.

 

You gave your husband the gift of reconciliation. That was a hard thing to do, and even if you felt you gave in, remind yourself, you took the hard path in life. You did it for yourself, your kids, and your husband. This is the action of a strong person, and you are that person. As for what others think, they are not you. They did not go trough or were confronted what you were. They may have had similar circumstances, but we all are different. You made the best chose for you and your family. Hold your head up high, and do not let anyone including your husband hold you in contempt.

 

For your original question: "Do WS hold BS in contempt for staying?" I would answer, if this is so, the WS is not in real reconciliation, nor is showing true remorse. The problem is with them, and deep in their soul. They are not worthy of the gift of reconciliation, and in marriage in general.

 

As always, I wish you SL, good luck......

[dichotomy]

S.L.

 

I am so sorry for all you are dealing with. I can only understand a portion of what your going through. It sounds horrible and beyond bearable. I can only say during this second marriage (after dDay) i watched my mother die, father die, and I got cancer for the second time.

 

I used to care what my wife thought of me (am I good enough, man enough,does she admire and respect me, etc) - but in the end I could only set boundaries of how she acted. My understanding is she has been more concerned with how I thought (or think even now) about her. She lost respect and admiration. I put her on a pedestal when I fell in love with her so long ago - never again can she reclaim that.

 

I choose to stay because leaving would have been more painful. Back in the day it felt like - "frying pan or Fire" choice. Now many years later its gotten better and I am very at peace with having stayed.

[Liam1]

 

If staying means you respect yourself more then that is the reason to stay.

 

The reason to stay, IMO, is that you love your spouse. If not, then it does not matter why you leave. It's just healthier to leave.

 

Too many people marry someone then never ever loved. Then at any bump in the road they want to jump off or they stay because they feel stuck. But they do not stay out of love.

 

 

That other person hasn't been capable of giving it to you in the relationship before, they won't suddenly be capable of giving it to you now.

I do not agree that this statement applies to all people. Perhaps it may apply to someone who is very rigid and adverse to change.

 

Some people believe if they change their thinking it is a compromise, but adaptable people change when the situation changes. They reassess the situation an act according to the new information.

 

You stay or go for your own purposes and according to your own values. What anyone else has to say about it really doesn't matter.

 

I agree 100 percent. It does not matter what anyone else thinks or says.

 

A large percentage of people, however, do not have the confidence to think for themselves and to make their own decision based on their own feelings.

 

There is no shame in having the confidence to think for yourself. In fact, IMO, most of the great achievers of the world dismissed ridicule and doubt from outsiders, followed their own beliefs, and still succeeded despite naysayers.

[cocorico]

 

Do cheating MM loose respect for wives that don't file for divorce?

 

 

I think it depends on many things.

 

My H did lose respect for the xBW, it's true: after the denial came the begging and bargaining, and he was more done than he'd ever been. Perhaps if she'd been a little willing to compromise before the A, he would have felt differently. But once he was actually walking out the door and she saw he was serious about leaving, she promised the world. He'd BTDT with her; he knew her promises amounted to nothing and he saw that that was all she had. Feet of clay. This person he had allowed to treat him so horribly for so long lost all the power he had projected onto her, and became a husk. So he left.

 

That is very different to the BW who decides to reconcile because she has considered her options, done a cost-benefit analysis and made an informed decision that burying the old M and forging a new one from its ashes ismamproject worth investing in. A BW can demonstrate either strength or weakness by staying, or even both, depending. A WS who does not recognise a BS decision to stay that is made from strength is not worth staying for. A BS who stays because they have no options and cedes power to the WS by communicating this - verbally or otherwise - may elicit pity from the WS but not respect. A BS who considers their options and chooses to stay, knowing it's a choice made because they want to not because they have to, demands respect from the WS, and is more likely to forge a successful reconciliation rather than a rug-swept "business as usual" M.

 

I don't think one size fits all.

[TrustedthenBusted]

My wife cheated on me, and I stayed.

 

I can tell you one thing. Right now, only one of us feels any shame, and it aint me.

[wmacbride]

My husband has told me many times that he can't believe I stayed with him after everything he has put me through. He's also said he's in awe of the fact that I loved him enough to try.

 

OP, you are such a strong person, with tons of character. Be kind to yourself. If anyone deserves it, it's you.

[mikeylo]

Never been on either side but I guess the WS can take the BS for granted , because they stayed rather than looking it from a pov of getting another chance to rebuild.

OP, because of your personal situation , health and small kids , your husband could be taking you for granted. THAT is very difficult to deal with as he knows you are not ( or can't ) leaving him. Sorry about your feelings but remember people will say whatever till it happens to them. So try not to read negative posts.

[RecentChange]

My husband has told me many times that he can't believe I stayed with him after everything he has put me through. He's also said he's in awe of the fact that I loved him enough to try.

.

 

Oh I said these exact same things to my spouse after I cheated.

 

I was, hum, awed by his love for me in the face of his suffering, I thought, this, right here, I am seeing unconditional love.

 

And I agree with Liam, unless the couple is still in love with each other, I do not see the point, or the positives in reconciliation.

[wmacbride]

Oh I said these exact same things to my spouse after I cheated.

 

I was, hum, awed by his love for me in the face of his suffering, I thought, this, right here, I am seeing unconditional love.

 

And I agree with Liam, unless the couple is still in love with each other, I do not see the point, or the positives in reconciliation.

 

He says this to me quiet recently ( a few weeks ago) when we were watching a movie and a man was cheating on his wife.

 

His affair ended almost ten years ago.

 

I don't know about the "in love" component. what does "in love" man in this context anyway? I would hazed a guess that there are times when a bs may feel a huge sense of anger towards there ws and might question their love for them if asked at that point.

 

Ask a bit later, and they might say they are very much in love.

[RecentChange]

He says this to me quiet recently ( a few weeks ago) when we were watching a movie and a man was cheating on his wife.

 

His affair ended almost ten years ago.

 

I don't know about the "in love" component. what does "in love" mean in this context anyway? I would hazed a guess that there are times when a bs may feel a huge sense of anger towards there ws and might question their love for them if asked at that point.

 

Ask a bit later, and they might say they are very much in love.

 

Well, I have been on both sides of the coin. First the BS, then years later the WS.

 

I didn't wait 10 years to say that I was in awe of his love, and that I didn't feel deserving of this unconditional love that he was offering, these were words said during those first tumultuous days post D Day.

 

Because he said that he LOVED me, that he was in love with me, and that he wanted to work past it. I can't tell you how much that made my heart swell, I felt like I was going to burst at the seams.

 

Sure, there was anger involved in being a BS, I had it, he had it - but overwhelmingly, our recoveries were defined by our love for each other, and our recognition of being IN LOVE with each other.

 

I guess I always have to qualify that each affair is different. Both of ours were short term, physical, and not some sort of hidden "love affair" - neither of us became emotionally involved with the AP - the affairs were just symptoms of internal struggles and short comings in our relationship. Not the "falling for another man" type business. The affairs were a drug, an unhealthy form of self medicating.

 

So, I saw no shame in staying when he wandered. It wasn't because I was weak, its because I was strong enough, because our love was strong enough to work beyond it.

[wmacbride]

Well, I have been on both sides of the coin. First the BS, then years later the WS.

 

I didn't wait 10 years to say that I was in awe of his love, and that I didn't feel deserving of this unconditional love that he was offering, these were words said during those first tumultuous days post D Day.

 

Because he said that he LOVED me, that he was in love with me, and that he wanted to work past it. I can't tell you how much that made my heart swell, I felt like I was going to burst at the seams.

 

Sure, there was anger involved in being a BS, I had it, he had it - but overwhelmingly, our recoveries were defined by our love for each other, and our recognition of being IN LOVE with each other.

 

I guess I always have to qualify that each affair is different. Both of ours were short term, physical, and not some sort of hidden "love affair" - neither of us became emotionally involved with the AP - the affairs were just symptoms of internal struggles and short comings in our relationship. Not the "falling for another man" type business. The affairs were a drug, an unhealthy form of self medicating.

 

So, I saw no shame in staying when he wandered. It wasn't because I was weak, its because I was strong enough, because our love was strong enough to work beyond it.

 

This is a really important point that I'm glad you made.

 

I think i worded my comment about my husband wrongly He has said that to me many items since his A. One of the first is when he got off the plane, He came home by himslef, and his flight was delayed until after midnight. I was the only one there to meet him, and that was one of the first things he said to me. That, and how you don't know hat you have until you might lose it.

Edited June 16, 2016 by wmacbride

[NewLeaf512]

Dichotomy. Quote - "what life awaits them if the stay or leave - and choose the best (or least worst) choice for them.".

 

When you're a mother & a daughter that becomes more complicated. When you don't know how long you will live for its more complicated. When you couldn't sit through an interview, let alone do a job because your pain makes you collapse it's more complicated.

 

What's the "least worst choice" for a whole family that's crippled by tragedy trying to hold on desperately to what remains? What's the "least worse choice" when specialists can't identify the source of the "glandular cancer cells" in your body? When top surgeons tell you there's nothing to be done so you live in 24/7 pain & you fight constantly to hide your agony from everyone & it's still not good enough?

 

What support are all of those people on the Internet who are touched by the way I write going to be to my orphaned kids?

 

How am I not effected by the views of the person I've shared my whole adult life with? shared 26 years of my life with? The love of my WHOLE life?

 

When ALL you want is to be home with your ailing parents but a day spent sorting the house leaves you in such agony that you can hardly move for the rest of the week?

 

When you reach out to a couple of people IRL & they make you feel pathetic for not "Being STRONG", leaving & going where? Home to my parents getting close to 80 years old? Home to care for your Dad who's loosing his memory & your Mum who's had heart surgery when you can just about care for yourself & your kids? Home to a council house waiting list & disability allowance? A H who dreams of being a drop-out not earning so no child or spouse allowance?

 

Not to mention the suicide threats if I leave after watching my niece & nephews become broken delinquents after their fathers, my brothers suicide? That's exactly the future I want for my babies!!!

 

On this forum we advise this fantasy.... "Set them free to find someone who will truly love them". Ok how many men here go to dating sites & request divorced, crippled, chronic pain, middle aged cancer patients with young kids? REALLY??

 

It's a REALLY bad day! I just asked if MM have contempt for bs who stay. I have contempt for me!! Why wouldn't they??

 

I don't care if you stay or go. I have told you I will give you a job working from home not 9-5 but when you can make my appointments and schedule my experts. Here is what I do bloody care about : you are martyring yourself, your needs and your hopes and dreams for a man that treats you like crap, who doesn't show you kindness, respect, affection or remorse. You on some level feel you deserve this horrific treatment.

 

Children model relationships in their adult life on what they witness as ok. That is why I became a co-dependent running headlong into a grandiose Narcissist because that was what I was raised with and what I thought marital love looked like. A death, a suicide, a critically injured woman, an illigetimate child of his and 8 years and serveral thousand £££'s worth of therapy has finally made me understand that I am worth something. I GET TO CHOOSE who I let close, who I care for and who I allow to care for me. Before I felt so lucky that anyone noticed me and wanted to be my friend Or be close to me it never occurred to me that I should make sure I wanted them too. That they were good for me and to me and would bring something to my life instead of just use me for whatever they wanted. I learned (very slowly) what boundaries are and I am still learning.

 

You are something wonderful. You don't need to accept/allow indifference, mind games, or emotional terrorism. You have the power.ive had so many parts of me cut off, I've had to use a speedy catheter once for 2 years, I get the pain. I've had cancer several times. None of us know how long we will be here, but for however long that is,be happy, it's not your fault and stop jumping through hoops of fire to make some Pratt happy.

 

At some point when you are ready, get off the fence. Get all in or all out, everyone will still be here for you but please stop torturing yourself darling.