Buddhist Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 I've been going through some intense stuff recently that has really taken me deep into the heart of my own shadows. And I came to the realisation today that actually, I don't know what love is. And I certainly have no idea where to go about finding it either. The only thing I'm really clear on is.... Love is not an negotiated arrangement where two people come together, hash out their wants and needs and then agree to stick by some arbitrary rules before they eventually get sick of each other and leave. Or one person breaks said rules and then leaves. No offence to LS or the people who give their time and energy here. But the more I witness the typical evolution of relationships the more I feel that actually they are just arrangements that will inevitably fail. Whether they fail this year, next year or 20yrs from now. The chances of it failing are really high. But it's not just the chance of failure that puts me off, it's the implied negotiations and manipulations that such arrangements typically require. They just seem to have nothing at all to do with real intimacy with another person. From the early stages of dating to the inevitable bumps in the road. The fact that more people turn to internet strangers/paid strangers in the guise of counsellors than to their actual SO's is pretty telling of just how much intimacy they've managed to create in these arrangements. Close to none. Anyway, just hashing out some random thoughts of my own, feel free to join in or not. 9
fands Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 True love is acceptance of self. Love is also about sacrificing your own interests for the benefit of another. But most of all, love is about not settling for anything less than the 9 inches you deserve. 4
Els Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 But it's not just the chance of failure that puts me off, it's the implied negotiations and manipulations that such arrangements typically require. They just seem to have nothing at all to do with real intimacy with another person. From the early stages of dating to the inevitable bumps in the road. The fact that more people turn to internet strangers/paid strangers in the guise of counsellors than to their actual SO's is pretty telling of just how much intimacy they've managed to create in these arrangements. Close to none. This is far too cynical an interpretation IMO. Nobody can be everything to you, nobody can (or should) remove the need to talk or vent to other people. It is healthy to have a partner and also to have friends and a sounding board (whether it be the internet or aforementioned friends, or in most cases both) whom you can talk to. If you are expecting your partner to be ALL the human communication you will ever need, and perceiving anything less as 'no intimacy', you are putting far too much pressure on them and are bound to fail. That aside, eh. Sure lots of Rs fail. Everybody dies, too. Doesn't mean we should all stop living and enjoying what we have in the present. 12
fands Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 and enjoying what we have in the present. That's actually a very good point. We should all try to live a little more in the present, and not be laser-focussed on all the what-ifs and likely-outcomes of the future. After all, today's 8 inches might be tomorrow's 9, or it might not, but 8 inches is better than nothing. Right now. Not that I have much choice because that's all I've got, but you get the point. 5
Author Buddhist Posted June 13, 2016 Author Posted June 13, 2016 Nobody can be everything to you, If you are expecting your partner to be ALL the human communication you will ever need, and perceiving anything less as 'no intimacy', you are putting far too much pressure on them and are bound to fail. I didn't say this at all. Nor did I imply that my definition of intimacy was someone being 'everything' to me. 2
fands Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 The fact that more people turn to internet strangers/paid strangers in the guise of counsellors than to their actual SO's is pretty telling of just how much intimacy they've managed to create in these arrangements. I suppose this is about objectivity. And the fact that there are usually three sides to every story. Certainly one would expect that most problems can be solved by talking directly, but sometimes there is no way of getting the requisite perspective except by discussing an issue with outsiders. How well do you know thyself? How well does anybody else know thyself? We all seek to be truly, deeply understood, but this may be an impossible ideal. To be loved is to be deeply cared about. It's more about attachment than about understanding. The attachment is a product of understanding, but deep understanding is a very long journey indeed. 4
Author Buddhist Posted June 13, 2016 Author Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) How well do you know thyself? How well does anybody else know thyself? We all seek to be truly, deeply understood, but this may be an impossible ideal. To be loved is to be deeply cared about. It's more about attachment than about understanding. The attachment is a product of understanding, but deep understanding is a very long journey indeed. This is more to the point. I have spent the past 2 months doing nothing except getting to know myself. Not in that superficial spend time on my own, doing things I like kind of way. Which incidentally does nothing. But getting to know what is hidden in my subconscious, ferreting out the darkness within, coming face to face with my own deepest fears and confronting them. I've been on a journey of intimacy with self if you like, and it's brought up a lot of questions for me. I'll be honest intimacy with self can be a hellish journey, you can't even get to touch the real you until you pass the gatekeepers which are fear. There have been days when I've felt the lowest I've ever felt, and days where I've been terrified too. I've had to move through moments of deep fear with nothing more than a desire to reach 'me' to get me through it and confronting it breath by breath. This isn't traditional psychotherapy where we sit in a comfortable space and have someone validate our emotions and ask us questions. But a deep journey within that you have to travel alone much of the way. And now that I know how tiny I am inside, how much of my life has been dominated by fear, and how much of my personality is a defence mechanism. It naturally leads me to want to do more than scratch the surface when it comes to a definition of love and I am seeking to redefine what I would call intimacy with another person. Edited June 13, 2016 by Buddhist 4
fands Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 I've been on a journey of intimacy with self if you like, It is very hard to be objective about one's hopes, desires, and perspective on life itself. Because perspective is subjective, of course. The fears you describe are possibly the barriers on the voyage to acceptance. Also, we're always changing. And should allow ourselves to change. So knowing oneself better can lead to positive changes, or at least a reevaluation of priorities. and I am seeking to redefine what I would call intimacy with another person. Well, this is a delicate balancing act. One has to be interested in getting into another's head, whilst at the same time not overstepping the mark so as to challenge their own perception of self. And what is their motivation for knowing you better? A simple motivation is caring, and just the curiosity of getting to the "nuts and bolts" of what makes you tick. Intimacy is perhaps having the confidence to open up to another without fear of ridicule or dismissal. If it is a meeting of compassionate souls, then almost anything is possible. But everyone's perspective is a little different, and so we have to be prepared to live with some misalignment. 2
todreaminblue Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) love is in the things left unsaid, in the stillness of night the whispers of dreams in bed, in the quiet dawning of light,you awake refreshed from your rest, your love returned in the smile awakened next to you ,and you surely feel blessed, love is tender and kind when you choose to speak your mind, love is at the end of the hardest day soothing fingertips you find, love is being there through it all never wanting to change, love is felt by you and by them even out of cell phone range, its knowing that love can and should be like this, lets me know the love i have inside me to give and the love i miss, and i will not can not ever settle for less than this.. that kind of love will come for me and i will become mrs(....) and no longer a miss....deb Edited June 13, 2016 by todreaminblue 7
fands Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 love is felt by you and by them even out of cell phone range, If you really, really loved me, you would never go out of cell phone range. Oh, and remember to charge your phone! (Just ignore me, that was a lovely poem.) 5
todreaminblue Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 If you really, really loved me, you would never go out of cell phone range. Oh, and remember to charge your phone! (Just ignore me, that was a lovely poem.) smilin...thankyou....i tried to think of something that rhymed with change...i thought of range...and mange...i chose...cellphone range...:0)..mange ..well ...couldnt make it fit....deb 1
dichotomy Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Love is not a feeling - its a will that values the others growth and fulfillment - at times above your own. Its a choice and often a sacrifice. Love is a verb - love is as love does. 5
Emilia Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Love is acceptance. That sounds glib but in fact I think it's huge. If you look at LS threads, how much acceptance do you really see and how much of the posts are about trying to mold the person into someone else. Or just chase after your own gratification. Love is seeing the beauty of the person even in their flaws, it's acceptance. 5
bachdude Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 A definition or description of love, I believe, is impossible with the limitations of human language. Poets and composers have come the closest, I believe. I mean, how can anyone encapsulate in a nice nifty definition, the love of a mother for her child. You can't. It transcends the abilities of the written and spoken word. Our definitions only scrape the surface of what love is. A common motif in the Symphonies of Gustav Mahler is the redemptive power of love. It heals, restores, makes whole again. If you want a musical picture love, listen to the adagietto of Mahler's Symphony No 5. 5
bachdude Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 A definition or description of love, I believe, is not possible with the limitations of human language. I think poets and composers have come the closest. Scientists have failed the most in their definitions. I mean, how is it possible to encapsulate in words the love a mother has for her child? At best our language gives us a glimpse of what love this, but in the end is unsatisfying and only partial. In the symphonies of Gustav Mahler, one of the motifs is the redemptive power of love. Love in all of its forms, whether human or divine, heals, restorers, and makes whole again. If you would like a musical representation of love, I suggest closing your eyes and listening to the Adagietto from Mahler's Symphony No. 5. It's spiritual experience. 4
Satu Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Its too big a question to answer in one post, but the starting point for love, in my opinion, is this: "Total dedication to the wellbeing of a person." I think of that as being square one. Here's an interesting quote related to this topic: “I have given no definition of love. This is impossible, because there is no higher principle by which it could be defined. It is life itself in its actual unity. The forms and structures in which love embodies itself are the forms and structures in which love overcomes its self-destructive forces.” ― Paul Tillich 8
Tribble Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Interesting and something I have been thinking about lately. I was reading a book and came across this quote "A love that can end has never been real" and that really resonated with me. I can't describe love but I know I love my ex. I can't explain it, I just do. It is acceptance of all his flaws (there are plenty!) and not really caring about them. I agree with what someone else said about trying to change a person and mould them into what you want. And I think it depends. Being in a relationship is hard and takes work. And compromise on both sides. Asking someone to compromise is not asking them to change in my opinion. The problem comes when you ask them to change who they fundamentally are. I used to think that because I was in love with my ex after so much time that must mean something, that we should be together. I'm now realising that is not the case. He will always have a piece of my heart, but not my future. Hopefully, future someone will come along and he'll just have to have most of my heart. It isn't 100% mine to give away anymore. My ex was my first True Love. Not the first guy I've loved, but the first that was Real. And I can't explain why him over others. 3
jen1447 Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 I think deb and bachdude have the right of it. If you want a dictionary definition, "affection for another" or sth like that will do, but the reality of genuine love isn't sth that can be captured or summarized in routine text or language. It requires some form of art to express properly. (After all, art is bscly the non-verbal* and complex expression of happiness and sorrow, and probably the biggest driver of those two things is love - or the lack of it.) *When prose and poetry reach the level of art, I think they're at their core bscly 'non-verbal' too, being as language at that point is the equivalent of a paintbrush used to illustrate emotions and not just a system to communicate information. 5
lana-banana Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Love is seeing someone at their absolute worst---I don't just mean six days of stubble and a bad attitude, but irrational and snippy for whatever reason and generally being no fun to be around---and knowing you'd be utterly devastated to live without them. 2
todreaminblue Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 (edited) love honestly deserves a book of poems......because you cant put down what love is in one poem, one sentence......every time i write a poem on what love is...it is a different poem...of what love is to me...i dont feel love is the same for everyone ...because we all love differently....not only that...there are so many different types of love..... a poster wrote in this thread...love is as love does...and as an expression of love..i think its pretty awesome..love is an active action.....it has a beating heart and breath...it is alive..it moves it slows...it speeds up and it ages...as it ages it morphs and changes as people morph and change ..it progresses..and only the truest love....is immortal.....how people show love.....is more important i feel than the actual word itself......its easy to talk about love...even to give it a basic definition..love in action is far more beautiful...... love is as love does......resonates with me....i could put that as a title of a poem and write a sonnet.....that sonnet would be unneceesary...and i think i just might write that sonnet anyway....just because ..i love to write about.....love.....deb Edited June 13, 2016 by todreaminblue 1
fands Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 Love is seeing someone at their absolute worst---I don't just mean six days of stubble and a bad attitude, but irrational and snippy for whatever reason and generally being no fun to be around---and knowing you'd be utterly devastated to live without them. Perhaps love is having faith that this is a transitory phase, and not a 6-month rut.
katiegrl Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 To me, love means caring about your partner more than you care about yourself. Not sure if that's healthy, but I used to say that I loved my bf (now ex) so much that I would take a bullet for him, if it ever came down to that. HIS life or mine. I would choose his over mine, or at least be willing to risk my own life for his. And I meant it. 1
alphamale Posted June 13, 2016 Posted June 13, 2016 But the more I witness the typical evolution of relationships the more I feel that actually they are just arrangements that will inevitably fail. Whether they fail this year, next year or 20yrs from now. the chance of us all dying at some point is also 100%
RecentChange Posted June 14, 2016 Posted June 14, 2016 To me, love means caring about your partner more than you care about yourself. Not sure if that's healthy, but I used to say that I loved my bf (now ex) so much that I would take a bullet for him, if it ever came down to that. HIS life or mine. I would choose his over mine, or at least be willing to risk my own life for his. And I meant it. I am with you. I have said the same words , and have heard them "I would die for you!" I agree, that I don't know if it's necessarily healthy, but it conveyed the depth of emotion. Of course, if they loved you, they would never allow you to take that risk for them. As others have said, it's too difficult and complex to describe in words. It's a complete and total acceptance of the other. A deep admiration and affinity. It's loving them for who they are, and their influence on you. It's being there for them, and showing nothing but compassion and love in the darkest times. Love is the tears in my partner's eyes as he said thank you for always beliving in me (even when he didn't). Love is seeing someone at their lowest, and not judging, but picking them up with love and compassion. Love is sharing and multiplying joy. Ahh love is so many things 5
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