Predestined or mendable?

[D-503]

Hello all.

Today was an interesting day for me.

After a short period of emotional wreckage, I started going out and participating a bunch of meetups again, hoping to see some new people.

And I did! Another case of another day though.

 

It was a language-related sort of meetup. I've known the people here for a couple of weeks--starting to get comfortable with them. But as usual, at some level I'm being shunned upon.

 

I am able to put up a front that's diplomatic-- the pretty talkative and will-laugh-at-anything type. I used every fiber of my knowledge to throw compliments against my will, answer questions and absolutely careful about others' needs.

 

I read upon topics that I won't normally touch, and informing myself with information that will bring the others a little closer to me. This boarders on manipulation but there's nothing else I can do.

 

Of course, this is a step-up from the past, but still I've not yielded any results. And...despite knowing that this isn't exactly a cause-result situation, I still can't help but feel an overwhelming amount of frustrations. I have really tried, in my own way.

 

I've been told at the table that I am an "interesting" person. This phrase however has been transformed gradually into a reminder of my inability to romantically interest people. I've come to resent it very much.

 

I'm being reminded that once my unrequited pursuit ended in the person saying that "I really respect you". I'm appreciative but at the same time, frustrated beyond measure.

 

The common advice people dispense-- be yourself/go with the flow/respect&all that common sense. Never made a difference.

People get intimated automatically and terrified when I just "be". Something that no amount of knowledge can fix, I have desperately assumed and told by someone the same thing today.

 

It seems to be something that breeds bitterness in itself, a vicious cycle if you like. Maybe I should go back and just smack up part of my brain?

 

The meetup ended on a high note with me answering others' questions in different languages and in-depth jokes and cultural trivias, but the emptiness the came after the dinner--suffocating. I mustered up enough courage (alcohol) and wrote this post.

 

TD:LR

There's an intensity people fear in me, and I can't cover it, can't let it be. Not a solvable problem on my own, I seek your wisdom people.

 

Thank yall for reading.

[bummer]

Some detail and context may help others give better advice. The post is a tad vague.

 

An intense personality shouldn't be an end all. Laughing at everything can seem disingenuous. Be authentic but kind. If a joke isn't funny don't laugh boisterously and don't shun the other person.

 

Perhaps trying to internalize the common advice more will help. Do try to go with the flow. People, women, often enjoy good listeners. Try to be attentive and engaged in conversations. Manipulations, faking it, putting on a face, etc are usually easy to detect especially if dealing with native and non-native speakers of a language.

 

If you find you're manic and trying to be the center, try being quieter. If you find people physically backing away or diverting their eyes, step back a bit and change your gaze so it feels less intense. Maybe this helps?

[Buddhist]

But as usual, at some level I'm being shunned upon.

 

Okay I can relate this was my experience in my younger years a lot and it's pretty frustrating. Lets see if I can pick some things apart here for you.

 

I am able to put up a front that's diplomatic-- the pretty talkative and will-laugh-at-anything type. I used every fiber of my knowledge to throw compliments against my will, answer questions and absolutely careful about others' needs.

 

The problem here is probably this. If you weren't well socialised as a kid then your attempts at being just like everyone else ring false. Social interaction is a very delicate dance and people can instantly sense when someone is trying too hard or not doing the dance well enough to fit in. It's not really a case that people want you to be yourself. That is one of the biggest lies out there. What they want you to do is the social dance to the same level of skill as anyone else and being clumsy at it is usually met with irritation and backhanded comments. People are very intolerant of those lacking these social skills.

 

I read upon topics that I won't normally touch, and informing myself with information that will bring the others a little closer to me. This boarders on manipulation but there's nothing else I can do.

 

While your intention is to be well informed so you can participate in the discussion, understand that the discussion or topic is rarely what people are interacting with. They are listening to the words and silently assessing each others charm, charisma and ability to be a comfortable person to be around. Your focus on knowledge is a rookie mistake. It rarely matters how well versed you are in a subject what matters is how well you can speak and have everyone else around feel at ease with you talking. Very likely your knowledge on the topic is coming across as perceived arrogance and an attempt to dominate the attention of everyone in the meeting. This is frowned upon very much.

 

Of course, this is a step-up from the past, but still I've not yielded any results. And...despite knowing that this isn't exactly a cause-result situation, I still can't help but feel an overwhelming amount of frustrations. I have really tried, in my own way.

 

It is extremely difficult to learn social grace as an adult. Children can learn it perfectly because they don't learn with the logical aspects of their brain. They have parts of their brain active at that age which allows thousands of little signals, perceptions and visual cues to just be assimilated into behaviour without a lot of conscious thinking. They are like sponges and because they are fully present in the moment they simply, observe, accept and repeat. This is a scientific fact, it's how a child can learn a language within a month or two while an adult may take years to do the same thing. As we mature this ability of the brain to simply absorb without question and our ability to be fully present in the moment both diminish. That is why you experience a great deal of frustration because you are unable to distinguish the extremely subtle differences between your behaviour and the next persons.

 

I've been told at the table that I am an "interesting" person. This phrase however has been transformed gradually into a reminder of my inability to romantically interest people. I've come to resent it very much.

 

I don't blame you for your resentment because such comments are very often cloaked insults or intimations that you are somehow not able to conform to the ideals of the group. It's a polite way of basically saying you don't fit in or the other person feels uncomfortable in your presence.

 

I'm being reminded that once my unrequited pursuit ....frustrated beyond measure.

 

As I am sure she took umbrage at being thought of as your unrequited pursuit. People do not like to be targeted and pursued. People like being given the opportunity to know you and show interest if they have any.

 

The common advice people dispense-- be yourself/go with the flow/respect&all that common sense. Never made a difference.

 

That is because it's advice based on the assumption that you received an adequate level of socialisation as a child and are therefore equipped with the same social skills as they have. I think it's apparent here that may not apply to you specifically.

 

People get intimated automatically and terrified when I just "be". Something that no amount of knowledge can fix, I have desperately assumed and told by someone the same thing today.

 

Correct. Because people are taught very early in life that anyone who does not come across socially in similar ways to them is to be feared and avoided. If you look up the characteristics of people with dangerous personality disorders you will often discover that they also display a lack of social understanding of others. That is where this fear comes from. You may very well be a perfectly safe person, but if your social skills are not up to the standards required you will find it difficult to make friends because of this incorrect assumption.

 

It seems to be something that breeds bitterness in itself, a vicious cycle if you like. Maybe I should go back and just smack up part of my brain?

 

The meetup ended on a high note with me answering others' questions in different languages and in-depth jokes and cultural trivias, but the emptiness the came after the dinner--suffocating. I mustered up enough courage (alcohol) and wrote this post.

 

TD:LR

There's an intensity people fear in me, and I can't cover it, can't let it be. Not a solvable problem on my own, I seek your wisdom people.

 

So since I had a similar problem what was my solution? Well I'm sorry to say there just isn't any easy one to this. Yes you could go and see a social skills professional but honestly I've doubted their worth. Sounds like paid validation to me.

 

Through self examination I had some hard lessons to learn. Here's what they were.

 

- My family dynamic is extremely dysfunctional because the major influence within it was narcissism. As children we learned to mirror and display traits which more normally socialised people recognise as someone to avoid, even if it isn't who we are.

- When I tried in adult life to mimic others and their social cues it came off wrong. The vibe isn't right, the facial expressions are recognised as forced (the human eye can perceive very fine detail even how much pressure is exerted in certain facial muscles, for example). None of it was perceived as genuine because I had not been practising it as long as other people have. I was clumsy, I made faux pas all the time. I did not understand the subtle nuances of the social dance. Most people would have receive corrective instruction on this around the ages of 8 or 9 from their parents. My parent had no idea about social graces, I received no instruction and other adults will not correct you even if you ask them too. It's considered impolite.

- I had to settle for being a toned down version of myself. So I did learn to lower my voice, not attract attention to myself, to basically fly under the social radar since I couldn't do more than the absolute basics successfully. Luckily I'm an introvert anyway so I just became an even bigger one and used it as an excuse to not talk much, or only talk to people one on one and even then I focus on listening and only speak if I must.

- I do not understand the value of, nor do I enjoy small talk. So I don't engage in it. This offends a great many people even to this day and I lose out on a lot of social connection as a result. It's something I've just accepted in life but I also recognise that any friendship based on idle small talk is likely to bore me anyway.

- If I am knowledgable on something, I absolutely will not offer anything on the subject unless specifically asked. I realised that volunteering information even out of kind intentions makes people believe that you are an interfering and overbearing individual. If you claim to have a speciality uninvited it will be seen as boasting and arrogance. I shut up about most things until specifically addressed on the subject.

- I learned that most people are more interested in themselves than anyone else. If you want friends you will rarely speak about yourself and always ask people about themselves.

 

That is all I can help you with. I still suffer from poor social skills and I do the best I can with it. Sadly I never found an effective way to properly develop this as an adult for the reasons already explained. I frequently say things no well socialised person would and even when I'm trying to say it nicely it comes across like razor blades.

 

BtW - I am intense is social code for....I lack boundaries.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Buddhist

[D-503]

First of all, thank you for putting the thoughts and time into reading as well as analyzing about this.

 

The problem here is probably this. If you weren't well socialised as a kid then your attempts at being just like everyone else ring false. Social interaction is a very delicate dance and people can instantly sense when someone is trying too hard or not doing the dance well enough to fit in. It's not really a case that people want you to be yourself. That is one of the biggest lies out there. What they want you to do is the social dance to the same level of skill as anyone else and being clumsy at it is usually met with irritation and backhanded comments. People are very intolerant of those lacking these social skills.

 

I fully agree with this. I've run into a few "prototypes" of highly sociable people with constant romantic encounters, and the personal history I've gathered from them resonate with your comment here. Comparing to them I've not been exposed to an environment where I can learn the delicate social dancing and it shows.

I have seen people who are in worse spot and are not self-aware of their lack of ability to do the basics of socializing, and I imagine that's the spot I am at when it comes to romance.

The amount of unkind comments "sociable" people dish out to those lacking the social grace is at times astonishing, despicable even.

 

While your intention is to be well informed so you can participate in the discussion, understand that the discussion or topic is rarely what people are interacting with. They are listening to the words and silently assessing each others charm, charisma and ability to be a comfortable person to be around. Your focus on knowledge is a rookie mistake. It rarely matters how well versed you are in a subject what matters is how well you can speak and have everyone else around feel at ease with you talking. Very likely your knowledge on the topic is coming across as perceived arrogance and an attempt to dominate the attention of everyone in the meeting. This is frowned upon very much.

 

The discussion I had yesterday with a charismatic gentleman confirms with this. He mentioned similar process of initial assessment in his social interactions(specifically romantic), and that apparently by his assessment I came across as having a big ego and not receiving others' signal well.

 

The meeting I had yesterday ended well on a personal note but was empty on a charisma level, and the way it went through was exactly like what you are describing here: I dominated the attention of everyone in the meeting with my trilingual translation and stories, but not everyone appreciated it equally.(like the charismatic guy whom I had a talk afterwards, he pointed out that I talked too much and didn't let others express themselves)

 

Correct. Because people are taught very early in life that anyone who does not come across socially in similar ways to them is to be feared and avoided. If you look up the characteristics of people with dangerous personality disorders you will often discover that they also display a lack of social understanding of others. That is where this fear comes from. You may very well be a perfectly safe person, but if your social skills are not up to the standards required you will find it difficult to make friends because of this incorrect assumption.

 

A very enlightening comment.

I've reacted towards this assumption with a general bitterness and cynicism, and this gradually eats away the "positivity" in me.

I have developed a rule of engagement with others: absolute fairness when it comes to exchanges. Meaning that I will always return the favor/goodwill with something of equal value, and I seek only the others' benefits. But people don't seem to appreciate this, and in fact prefer to be taken advantage of in a pleasant way.

This distrust for myself and the others is sometimes a major put-off to people from the affluent background. My restrains further put me away from other people.

 

- My family dynamic is extremely dysfunctional because the major influence within it was narcissism. As children we learned to mirror and display traits which more normally socialised people recognise as someone to avoid, even if it isn't who we are.

 

I can relate to this one. The way I dominate conversations and overwhelm others mirrors with the way my family members behave. This has become a standard mode of social engagement for me, but I realize that it is only useful in very formal situations, and I have certainly benefited from it but suffered on a personal level.

 

- I learned that most people are more interested in themselves than anyone else. If you want friends you will rarely speak about yourself and always ask people about themselves.

I've come to realize the importance of this lesson as well. I consciously limit the amount of information I give out to others, and at time I use the same "rule of fairness" by which I will only talk about myself when the others have done the same.

I use get-arounds in my logic to deal with people who constantly talk about themselves: I simply absorb their information as my own.

 

I didn't see the point of small talks but in recent years I've grown to use it as a way to extract information from others, so that I may talk about relevant subjects in the future.

 

- If I am knowledgable on something, I absolutely will not offer anything on the subject unless specifically asked. I realised that volunteering information even out of kind intentions makes people believe that you are an interfering and overbearing individual. If you claim to have a speciality uninvited it will be seen as boasting and arrogance. I shut up about most things until specifically addressed on the subject.

 

This is something I've learned as well. However, this reactionary method is sometimes interpreted as "false modesty", and though not all, but some do spot my attempt to restrain my ego and still display displeasure towards me.

 

That is all I can help you with. I still suffer from poor social skills and I do the best I can with it. Sadly I never found an effective way to properly develop this as an adult for the reasons already explained. I frequently say things no well socialised person would and even when I'm trying to say it nicely it comes across like razor blades.

 

BtW - I am intense is social code for....I lack boundaries.

 

I am intense! But instead of lacking the boundaries, I've set up too many boundaries. (kinda like a reactionary to the lack of boundary )

 

Again thank you for putting the thoughts into this. All of the advice you have offered are highly relatable and really gave me something to think about.

I can't help but think that this disproportional effort on my part to socialize will become sometime that eats me away and affect the way we see the world--certainly not a go-lucky take-it-easy kind of world.

Edited June 5, 2016 by D-503

[Buddhist]

I don't intend to make it seem like an uphill climb. For reference I am female and so my methods on adapting are based on acceptable female behaviours. I can get away with being a lot more retiring than most men can. I'm also referencing general social interaction rather than purely romantic ones.

 

It's probably not an impossible task but it is one that if you are serious about will require many more hours and a lot more effort than I was willing to put into things. I developed myself into a space where I can safely get about in life without necessarily being a popular person. If you put enough effort into it, recognising the unwritten social rules (no matter how unfair they may be) then you could probably master it. And then go on and create a career being an expert in it.

 

Your comments about fairness are very astute. I have worked with a vast number of different personalities in a very social job. People tend to resent any kind of fairness factor in their social interactions. They see it largely as interference. You'd be surprised how often someone can be manipulated by a charismatic individual and they just keep coming back for more. :roll eyes: It used to frustrate me no end especially in work settings where I could clearly see someone palming off their own work this way and getting away with it. But it is, what it is. People are irrational, emotional beings, yes men too. They will lavish their attentions on the person who makes me them feel most comfortable, not the person who treats them fairly or the person who can help them the most. Like it or not, it's just the way the human animal works a great deal of the time.

 

It's unfortunate you suffered a developmental set back but you seem to be quite dedicated in working through it and appear to have some objectivity, it's now just a matter of a walk of a thousand miles.

[GemmaUK]

First off I want to say that you are more than halfway there in my opinion just for the fact that you are aware of a few issues. Not only that but I you continue attending meetups then you have a perfect practice ground.

 

I do think that for now though reel back on thinking of romance and concentrate on making friends. Be kind to yourself and learn as you go a step at a time.

 

I don't know if this will help but upon reading your posts two of my work colleagues sprung to mind.

These are two women whom the majority of people avoid if possible.

I'm not assuming here that their behaviour is the me or similar to yours but if you do recognise anything in yourself then there will be something you can do about it and practice doing.

 

I'll start with P as she is the more intimidating of the two.

She compliments a LOT on things they are wearing. I bought a new batch of tops a couple of months ago and she has complimented each and every one on more than one occasion. I really don't mind this but it is getting a bit old, especially when she compliments me more than once in the same day.

She also loves jewellery so will compliment on that but then will go further and reach out and hold someone's chain or pendant for a closer look. This leaves the recipient of the compliment unable to move and is a huge invasion of their personal space.

P has a very loud voice, she will talk over people and she ha a very loud laugh also.

When standing she will stand very close (like they do in the movies so that they can get both faces in shot and close enough to see facial expressions) and she always has her eyes wide open and uses very direct eye contact during a conversation - never flitting her eyes off to the side which most people do when thinking.

She has a habit also of chasing after colleagues who are on their way back to their desks with heavy trays of hot drinks - she will stop them, get in front of them so they cannot proceed to a place where they can put the heavy tray down. It would be more considerate if she were to clock that the person was busy doing something right at that time and to give a few minutes for the person to put the tray down, give out the drinks and get settled back at their desk. We work in a totally open plan office so it's easy to see when someone is busy with something like a drinks round.

We have a very small kitchen and all of us do a kind of kitchen dance so that we don't bump into each other and so that we are not in the way when someone needs to get to the sink or whatever. P doesn't do this and she will run into the kitchen and open a drawer, cupboard or overhead cupboard right where you're standing with no 'excuse me' and no warning o you have to duck out of the way.

When she is already in the kitchen she seems not to sense nor even see when someone needs to get past her. The kitchen is a place where you want to get in and out quickly but when P is in there it takes longer - you have to ask 'excuse me' several times to eg get to the sink and once you have dropped off your teaspoon you have to ask 'excuse me' again several times to get back out of the sink area.

P's main things are overly wide eyes and constant unnatural eye contact and a lack of knowledge of personal space.

 

The other lady M is also unaware of personal space and will chase people and grab their arms/hands and again be very up close facially (like in a movie shot). Her eyes are not a iwide open a P's but the constant direct unflitting eye contact is the same.

M also asks people very personal and inappropriate questions out loud and in public

 

I have read quite a few books on body language and I have learned a lot from them and have altered a few of my own behaviours based upon what I have read.

Just a few simple things - as a rule of thumb make sure that you are an arms length away from a person you are talking to - this will definitely be enough space so as not to invade their space. This can be decreased little by little over time but let them take that lead. If you move closer and you see that they lean away or step back you know you have gone in too close. The response is called a limbic response, the recipient does not even think about it so stepping back is just a natural response.

Wide eyes and continual eye contact can feel very intimidating to the recipient. Eye contact is a good thing but it should be a fleeting thing with friends and moreso with acquaintances. In a romantic relationship eye contact is a different beast but still there are times and places for lingering eye contact.

In the settings you are in you can also watch for another limbic response rom people which is a welcoming gesture when people are standing together and see you coming. Check out their feet. If someone's foot turns towards you when they see you they are subconsciously inviting you to the group.

I only quite recently learned about this and now use it every time I see two people or a group talking together. If they have seen me coming and no feet turn in my direction I will carry on my way, even with friends, no foot turn tells me that they are having a private conversation and that I should not interrupt.

Another thing is that you can actually learn a lot about people if you let them speak and you yourself learn the patience of just listening. Listening is a skill but on the converse side of that learning to quit what you are speaking about when you are aware people have stopped listening to you is an equally valuable learning curve.

 

There is a very good book I have read on body language out of all that I have read which is 'What Every Body is Saying' by Joe Navarro.

I would very much recommend you have a read.

 

As far as M is concerned I had a lot of problems with her (something I posted about in a thread titled 'What would you do?' Those problems are now all resolved but I had to just stop her in her tracks.

With M, I am aware that she has had an interesting life and to a degree I would like to get to know her but I have a fear that he would overwhelm me and attempt to become too close.

 

Like I said, this may not be helpful to you at all but there might be one or two behaviours that you recognise in yourself - if there are then you can absolutely do something about them.

[bummer]

So much good advice here.

 

In your response you speak of a rule of fairness and logic in social interactions which shows you're very aware, perhaps too aware. Maybe aim to be nicer than you are treated without appearing disingenuous? Aim for even a rational view of emotional empathy to help gauge others and their reaction to certain interactions?

 

To me, this trilingual center of knowledge and attention you have in this meeting sounds a bit arrogant and a difficult place to be humble and equal in the social dance. Backing off until knowledge is requested (trilingual translation) is good advice.

[Satu]

I just think that the OP is terribly self-conscious and trying much too hard.

 

I see no problem other than that.