katiegrl Posted June 4, 2016 Posted June 4, 2016 I think this is often a problem. It's not dissimilar to the way conspiracy theorists tend to be the people who would be most likely to be involved in a conspiracy themselves. If you (general you) tend to be late for things because you're not always good at keeping track of time, then you're less likely to be offended by other people being late (unless it's one of those situations where it's really crucial for everybody to be on time). Less likely to take offence. However, somebody who uses lateness in a passive aggressive sort of way is more likely to get pissed off about other people's lateness. More likely to suspect them of playing passive aggressive games - because that's their own mindset. That's probably one of the big problems of the whole PUA thing. That in promoting game playing and manipulation, it promotes paranoia about other people playing mind games and manipulating. In other words, they're projecting. Very common and I agree with you 100%.
SwordofFlame Posted June 4, 2016 Posted June 4, 2016 The elephant in the thread here is the unstated assumption that men go into relationships with women looking for a marriage partner the way that many women do. It's not true. Plenty of men at all ages are just looking for someone to date until they get bored of them. Then they look for someone else to date. It wouldn't matter what you do, if he's not looking for anything more than dating, the relationship is ending at some point. Someone asking you out on a date is not necessarily someone interviewing you for the position of 'wife'. It's often the case that you are good enough....for now. This is what many women have a hard time accepting presumably because they themselves are looking for a future husband and wouldn't bother dating someone whom they didn't see in that role. This is 100% true for me. Doesn't matter who initiates or does most of the pursuing. The phrase "men look for sex and end up falling in love" kind of holds true for me. I'm not just looking for sex, but I also don't go into any kind of relationship thinking I'm definitely going to marry her someday or spend the rest of my life with her.
Tread Carefully Posted June 4, 2016 Posted June 4, 2016 Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't think I can do the mirroring thing. It feels too much like keeping score. If he brings me flowers on the first date then am I obligated to do the same on the next date? What if I forget? Do we hit the reset button? My hats off to you ladies that can do this. It's confusing to me, as most dating games are, so I prefer to just be myself and see what happens. 2
Taramere Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 Maybe I'm in the minority but I don't think I can do the mirroring thing. It feels too much like keeping score. If he brings me flowers on the first date then am I obligated to do the same on the next date? What if I forget? Do we hit the reset button? My hats off to you ladies that can do this. It's confusing to me, as most dating games are, so I prefer to just be myself and see what happens. I don't think you would need to open up a spreadsheet or anything like that. People do a certain amount of mirroring automatically - eg two people sitting together will often mirror eachother's body language without even being aware of it. I used to always know exactly who my mother was talking to on the phone, on account of her tone, words used and just the general pattern of how she spoke. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirroring_(psychology) Mirroring is the behaviour in which one person subconsciously imitates the gesture, speech pattern, or attitude of another. Mirroring often occurs in social situations, particularly in the company of close friends or family. The concept often affects other individual's notions about the individual that is exhibiting mirroring behaviors, which can lead to the individual building rapport with others. Mirroring is the subconscious replication of another person's nonverbal signals. This concept takes place in everyday interactions, and often goes unnoticed by both the person enacting the mirroring behaviors as well as the individual who is being mirrored. The activation of mirror neurons takes place within the individual who begins to mirror another's movements, and allows them a greater connection and understanding with the individual who they are mirroring, as well as allowing the individual who is being mirrored to feel a stronger connection with the other individual. Mirroring is distinct from imitation under the premise that while imitation is a conscious and overt effort to copy another person, mirroring is often covert and goes unnoticed within the situation. The display of mirroring often begins as early as infancy, as babies begin to mimic individuals around them and establish connections with particular body movements. The ability to mimic another person's actions allows the infant to establish a sense of empathy and thus begin to understand another person's emotions. The infant continues to establish connections with other individual's emotions and subsequently mirror their movements Essentially, just part of connecting. Building rapport. Something people tend to do without even realising it, most of the time - though in some cases it doesn't come naturally. Individuals with autism or other social difficulties may be less likely to exhibit mirroring, as they may be less subconsciously and consciously aware of the actions of others. This factor may cause additional difficulties for the individuals, as without mirroring, establishing connections with other people may be more difficult. Additionally, other individuals may be less likely to build rapport with the person, as without mirroring the person may seem more dissimilar and less friendly. I honestly think most people would, without really thinking about it, probably adjust their behaviour, to a certain extent, so that it's more in tune with the other person's. It might sound calculating when it's being discussed and analysed as it is here...but most human behaviour does when it's put under the microscope. 1
Lady Hamilton Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 When I was dating, from the time I was old enough to know I liked boys until I settled down with my first husband, I was an unapologetic man eater. I chased men left right and center. Only one guy dumped me for it and it took me years to realize it was because he was a child... An insecure guy who needed an uncomplicated woman so it was easy for him to masquerade as an alpha. He married a very nice girl who has the personality of a wet noodle and spends her days doing busy work in their big house and various charitable events, doting on him, and living and breathing everything he says. He spends his days career hopping and having the most unsubtle affair I've ever seen with a woman he worked with who follows him around the country as he compulsively moves and changes careers. Not every "tactic" will work on every man, but if the "tactic" you use doesn't play well, it's generally not because the "tactic" is flawed but because the audience isn't a good fit for you. By and large, when I chased a guy I'd get him, and when I got bored with him 15 minutes later, I'd kick them loose again. Other than the one guy who broke up with me before I got bored with him because my "assertiveness" turned him off, everybody else was very much responsive and many took it badly when things ended. I got the "nobody else made me feel like you did" line a lot.
BronzeAgeJaeger217 Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 I don't have a reference, that's probably why I hate being the initiator/pursuer
BlueIris Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 (edited) This is what I have learned after being dumped by someone I really cared about. This was the relationship/the guy that I put on the pedestal.... That's the problem. If you put someone on a pedestal you have created distance. You've decided that person is above you. It's impossible to have a fulfilling love with someone who is not right there next to you, on the same plane. Chasing doesn't become an issue. Edited June 5, 2016 by BlueIris 1
Buddhist Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 What I find interesting is none of the girls will consider that using such a technique is being deceptive in any way - won't even humour the idea. Actually I very much pointed out in the very early stages of this thread that it was manipulation. I'm not one of the girls though...I'll give you that. 1
Buddhist Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 Maybe you're right, maybe there are men and women out there who don't want LTR or marriage or children. What is a foreign concept to me is how can you relate to someone for a year and then decide that LTR is not what you want? Haven't you in a way gotten attached to this person over those 12 months? Smells like an avoidant personality disorder to me... Can you also not understand how a 20yr marriage can also break down? Relationships are a fluid experience, they morph and change day by day. People can enter them all hearts and flowers expecting the best and find out it's not what they are seeking. Every relationship break up ever has been about exactly that. I don't think anyone enters a relationship thinking, well this is going to be total crap. Just being with someone for x number of days does not guarantee bonding. I've known my immediate family members for over 40yrs now and we've never grown attached. I get it, you invested a year of your life into this and it didn't work out as you desired. I've invested 5yrs, 8yrs, 18 months, 3 yrs into relationships that did not work out as I intended. It happens to us all. But it probably did not happen because you made dates or texted him. It probably happened for a myriad of reasons, some of which may have been that he never intended it to be a forever relationship in the first place.
Author UltimatePanacea Posted June 5, 2016 Author Posted June 5, 2016 Can you also not understand how a 20yr marriage can also break down? Relationships are a fluid experience, they morph and change day by day. People can enter them all hearts and flowers expecting the best and find out it's not what they are seeking. Every relationship break up ever has been about exactly that. I don't think anyone enters a relationship thinking, well this is going to be total crap. Just being with someone for x number of days does not guarantee bonding. I've known my immediate family members for over 40yrs now and we've never grown attached. I get it, you invested a year of your life into this and it didn't work out as you desired. I've invested 5yrs, 8yrs, 18 months, 3 yrs into relationships that did not work out as I intended. It happens to us all. But it probably did not happen because you made dates or texted him. It probably happened for a myriad of reasons, some of which may have been that he never intended it to be a forever relationship in the first place. Fair enough...next time I get attracted to someone I will have to determine whether or not he is relationship-oriented at this point of his life.
candie13 Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 Fair enough...next time I get attracted to someone I will have to determine whether or not he is relationship-oriented at this point of his life. à man can be very RS oriented, just not RS when it comes to s specific person - you, me, etc. I am convinced a lot of men want to be in RS, but do I have what makes them tick for the RS to actually work or are they suitable to me & my lifestyle? There's more to a RS than a common willingness to be in one. There's chemistry, compatibility, similar values & hobbies, etc. 2
dichotomy Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 Its just my own experience - but when I have pursued women it has not worked out for me. I have generally had better success when the women pursued me. I am not talking heavy or long pursuit - but rather just a clear indication they are interested in me. This was both the old fashioned way - and via on line dating initial contacts. I dunno - but I think women have a better sense of compatibility - then I do - so I just said "ok" and went with it
Taramere Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 Surely it's best if it's more like a dance than a chase - where one person takes the lead overall, but the other is swiftly responsive so that things move along nicely. The initial buzz of excitement a person gets when you like somebody can, I think, be quite a short lived thing if it isn't stoked fairly quickly with some indication that the person feels the same way. Once that flurry of initial excitement about a new person dies off and is replaced by a sense of disappointment, or a sense of "well, there's friendship possibility here but probably not romantic possibility" it could be difficult or even impossible to ever recover that initial sense of excitement about them. I think there's a difference between a game and a dance. "Games" smack more of competitiveness. People jousting for power. A fight - which might be a good basis for a very passionate physical relationship, but one that is short lived. A dance is more about compatibility. Awareness of the other person's timing, responsiveness etc. Two people jousting for power who are trying to dance together will probably look clumsy and wrong.
deep_night Posted June 5, 2016 Posted June 5, 2016 its one thing to know when to step back and guard your dignity and its another thing to do the whole mirroring stuff. i find mirroring generic and lacking personality, i think i'd be turned off if someone did that. whats the difference between that and chatting up a bot? 1
Jabron1 Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) Don't know where to begin, and don't have the time to give the sort of reply I would like I think mirroring is doing absolutely everyone a big favor. I have been mirrored softly (am being right now ), and have been mirrored harshly. Depends on the person using it. Just like negs or any other manipulation technique. It's still a deception technique though. That's probably one of the big problems of the whole PUA thing. That in promoting game playing and manipulation, it promotes paranoia about other people playing mind games and manipulating. This gave me a good laugh. You lack the self-awareness to see that this is just the same as a PUA technique. You are living in la la land. This crap is marketed differently to meet your delusional little world. At least PUA's are honest about it. its one thing to know when to step back and guard your dignity and its another thing to do the whole mirroring stuff. i find mirroring generic and lacking personality, i think i'd be turned off if someone did that. whats the difference between that and chatting up a bot? Funny you should say that. The women that used this the worst on me, I stopped even seeing as human. Edited June 6, 2016 by Jabron1
Jabron1 Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 Actually I very much pointed out in the very early stages of this thread that it was manipulation. I'm not one of the girls though...I'll give you that. "When my love swears that she is made of truth, I do believe her - though I know she lies..."
Imajerk17 Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) Well, part of being successful with dating isn't about whether or not to "chase", it is instead also about deserving what you want. OP, I checked your posting history here, there are things about you specifically and how you handle your dating that would turn off a great guy. The thread below: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/second-chances/571571-how-win-him-back-after-i-cheated Get your issues handled and maybe dating won't be so challenging for you. As for the other topic, I see PUA and the stuff in Cosmo and the dating books for women as being on the same moral plane. It's probably all about as transparent. For example, I see a woman "mirroring" me and I think she is into me It's all good though, I appreciate good "Lady Game" from my date. If your dating life isn't going as you want I don't see anything wrong in learning new behaviours as long as you aren't hurting anybody else. Edited June 6, 2016 by Imajerk17
katiegrl Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 Don't know where to begin, and don't have the time to give the sort of reply I would like I have been mirrored softly (am being right now ), and have been mirrored harshly. Depends on the person using it. Just like negs or any other manipulation technique. It's still a deception technique though. This gave me a good laugh. You lack the self-awareness to see that this is just the same as a PUA technique. You are living in la la land. This crap is marketed differently to meet your delusional little world. At least PUA's are honest about it. Funny you should say that. The women that used this the worst on me, I stopped even seeing as human. Jabron, why do you refuse to respond to this (below) I have asked you like three times? Jabron wondering how are you defining mirroring? And what exactly do you find deceptive about it? If a guy waits 3 days to text, because he is busy, why is it considered deceptive for the woman to wait 2-3-4 days to respond because SHE is busy? It is called a healthy balance of give and take. Both giving equal amounts to the other... and to the relationship... Not understanding your rationale for calling that deceptive. THIS^^ IS MIRRORING! I don't know what you think it is, but there isn't anything deceptive about it. It's self-protective and both men and women should do it. Again, it's called a healthy balance of give and take.... and also being self-protective. I am so curious how you are defining or what you think it is.... because your perception of it appears to be way off.....
Jabron1 Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) That's not mirroring. Being busy is being busy. Mirroring is mirroring. There's being busy, and there's being 'busy'. I thought I defined it fairly clearly earlier? It's about hiding interest, controlling your own state, reflecting one's personality back at them, etc etc. Law Of Power #44 - Disarm and infuriate with the mirror effect The mirror reflects reality, but it is also the perfect tool for deception. When you mirror people, doing exactly as they do, they cannot figure out your strategy. The Mirror Effect mocks and humiliates them, making them overreact. By holding up a mirror to their psyches, you seduce them with the illusion that you share their values; by holding up a mirror to their actions, you teach them a lesson. Few can resist the power of the Mirror Effect. And being 'busy' is the least I've experienced with this crap... Edited June 6, 2016 by Jabron1 1
katiegrl Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 That's not mirroring. Being busy is being busy. Mirroring is mirroring. There's being busy, and there's being 'busy'. I thought I defined it fairly clearly earlier? And being 'busy' is the least I've experienced with this crap... No sorry it is mirroring, and the reason (being busy or needing space or whatevs) doesn't matter. If a man (or woman) is pulling back for whatever reason (doesn't call/text, etc for awhile.... (whether they're busy, need space or whatever) then it's perfectly legit for their SO to do the same back at them. Mirror his or her actions. Healthy balance of give and take.... so neither becomes resentful believing he/she is giving more to the RL than the other. Again NOTHING deceptive about it. It's healthy and self-protective for both the woman and the man (if the woman is the one pulling back).
katiegrl Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) >>It's about hiding interest, controlling your own state, reflecting one's personality back at them, etc etc. Well frankly if a man is hiding or losing HIS interest (which is why he has pulled back), I am certainly not going to be making any great effort to show him mine. That's just stupid. I am going to mirror HIS actions to protect myself against appearing needy, clingy or just giving more when he isn't doing anything to warrant my giving more. And yes of course I am going to control my own state!! We all should control our own state.... and give as much as we are being given to. Mirroring is mostly used to protect ourselves when we suspect our partner is not as interested, pulling back, and/or fading out. It is either that or just nexting him (or her if roles are reversed). Edited June 6, 2016 by katiegrl
Jabron1 Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 Nope, it's game playing. Mirror someone's interest so you don't invest any more than they do, show your interest, etc etc. And that's just using it nicely. I'm not even saying that it's always the worst thing. There's a girl playing this game with me right now, literally tonight, and she is a cool person. But can we just call a spade a spade. It's deception. Calling it 'busy' is frankly insulting.
katiegrl Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) Nope, it's game playing. Mirror someone's interest so you don't invest any more than they do, show your interest, etc etc. I thought you were into "games" and strategies.... LOL But when they're aimed at you, throwing YOU off YOUR game, it's deceptive and insulting. Okie doke, got it! :laugh: ETA - and aren't YOU the one who is always advising folks to control how invested they become? But again when directed toward you, it's deceptive and insulting. What's that saying "you can dish it out... but can't take it"? Too funny! Edited June 6, 2016 by katiegrl
Jabron1 Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 (edited) I thought you were into "games" and strategies.... LOL But when they're aimed at you, throwing YOU off YOUR game, it's deceptive and insulting. Okie doke, got it! :laugh: ETA - and aren't YOU the one who is always advising folks to control how invested they become? But again when directed toward you, it's deceptive and insulting. Too funny! My problem isn't the game; the game is simply the game. It's the hypocrisy when I try to discuss this with people on an adult level, and they start reframing things like mirroring as 'being busy'. Sure, and I'll pretend PUA techniques don't exist, and start reframing them as 'harmless tomfoolery'. Read my above post properly. I just said that mirroring isn't the always the worst thing. I'll even quote it so you don't have to go back: I'm not even saying that it's always the worst thing. There's a girl playing this game with me right now, literally tonight, and she is a cool person. Like I said, it's a tool/technique. It can be used to different degrees. It's deceptive regardless. I don't see the problem with accepting that, unless what I'm dealing with some sort of delusion. But then you said earlier 'you don't play games. Games are toxic'. Now in post #96 you are saying that you mirror people. So F' knows Edit: sorry, it's not a 'game', it's a 'dance'. So many rationalisations it's hard to keep up with it all. Edited June 6, 2016 by Jabron1
Taramere Posted June 6, 2016 Posted June 6, 2016 This gave me a good laugh. You lack the self-awareness to see that this is just the same as a PUA technique. You are living in la la land. This crap is marketed differently to meet your delusional little world. What crap? Mirroring? It's just a word to describe a common piece of social behaviour that people engage in without really thinking about. Like some types of behaviour seen as flirtatious. Some people might do it in a very conscious way (to the point that it comes across as fake and stilted). Some people might do it automatically without even realising they're doing it. If you think that absolutely every bit of social behaviour people engage in is very carefully thought through, then that probably does speak to your own tendency to overthink/plan your own behaviour. The fact that you're getting pissed off about this, and using phrases like "la la land" and words like "delusional" suggest that the diagnosis of projection is bang on target. But I don't think many of us would need to see you throwing a bit of a hissy fit to have guessed that one already. 2
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