Feeling Lied To By Disney and Chick Flicks

[xxoo]

The thing that I feel that was rightfully mine was the social contract I feel is made to young people, especially in Mormonism: If you do X, Y, and Z, you will find a happy successful relationship. Well, I did X, Y, and Z, and I don't have a happy successful relationship. So yes, I feel shortchanged, especially because I see other people who found a satisfying relationship with far less effort than I've put in.

 

So there you have it. My cards are on the table. That is what I want, that is what I'm frustrated with, and that is what I feel is missing that I should have gotten.

 

What were X, Y, and Z?

 

I don't believe that anyone is owed a relationship, or that there is a formula to have one. I was not given a formula, nor any guarantee. We socialized, we dated, we fell into relationships naturally in time. Not everyone I dated became a relationship, and that was fine.

 

Are you looking for an insta-relationship? If you're pushing too hard (and that's what it sounds like) for lots of contact, lots of commitment, it'll feel "off" to even healthy women and they'll move in the other direction. You know you're pushing women away based on your experiences. You need to identify the behaviors that are causing that and stop them. You don't need to "fix" yourself to recognize the impulses and behaviors are bad and stop them.

 

Another point...if you are always the one being dumped and never the one doing the dumping, you aren't being selective enough. It goes back to being too needy, attaching to just about anyone.

[katiegrl]

I want what most all of you want - a stable, loving, satisfying relationship with someone who meets my needs and whose needs I can meet.

 

Well first off, remaining in dysfunctional, dissatisfying RLs with woman who don't meet your needs is an exercise in futility, so stop doing that.

 

I realize you explained why you do (to try and fix and mold it into what you want) but after 15 years you must know by now that won't work.

 

What's the definition of insanity? Repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting a different result? NOT gonna work.

 

Second, what exactly are your needs? I have read several of your threads, one in which you described a situation wherein your gf needed space and you wanted to know how to essentially twist yourself into a pretzel in an attempt to let her know you will give her that space.

 

That my friend is needy. In case you didn't know.

 

A less needy guy wouldn't do anything. He would just PULL BACK and give her space. Not say a word. Not do anything. Just leave her alone. Take space for himself and give her space. And maybe re-evaluate the RL to determine if SHE is what HE wants.

 

You describe yourself as having "anxious attachment" while the women you date are "active avoidant." And you bend over backwards trying to be what they want (lemme guess, so they won't leave). Instead of being your own man and behaving the way you want (and screw it if they don't like it).

 

Again, needy.

 

How about time spent? How much time do you need to spend with a woman to feel secure? If she's not available, how do you react? Do you express frustration or anger? Or bombard her with questions asking when she might be available?

 

How about texting? If you send a text and she doesn't reply back for awhile, do you send another one? Asking why she hasn't responded to the first one?

 

My ex used to do that in the beginning and it was such a turn off.... ugh!

 

Wave Runner, I am just trying to get some idea of how you actually behave/interact in your RLs that cause your girlfriends to break up with you.

 

Needy = (1) becoming anxious (and acting on it) when your partner doesn't meet your specific set of expectations (whatever those may be). (2) Twisting yourself into someone you're not in order to please and/or gain the attention or affection of your partner. (3) Not respecting your partner's boundaries and imposing yourself/burdening them with your anxieties (texting, calling, etc.) at any given point in time.

 

Wave... I am not suggesting you are doing these things, again just trying to get a sense of how you interact in your RLs, again to determine why all your relationships fail and your gfs leave you.

Edited May 19, 2016 by katiegrl

[Wave Rider]

What were X, Y, and Z?

Well, these would be implied, and somewhat subjective. If you watch a movie with a guy who won a woman's heart by working really hard and being charming and funny, then the message is that I can win a woman's heart if I work really hard and am charming and funny. Or in Mormonism, if I am a good Mormon and I do all the things I'm supposed to do, God will reward me with a beautiful wife.

 

Are you looking for an insta-relationship? If you're pushing too hard (and that's what it sounds like) for lots of contact, lots of commitment, it'll feel "off" to even healthy women and they'll move in the other direction. You know you're pushing women away based on your experiences. You need to identify the behaviors that are causing that and stop them. You don't need to "fix" yourself to recognize the impulses and behaviors are bad and stop them.

 

I appreciate the input, but the form of the answer that I would be looking for would be different. It'd be in the form of some statement that would turn conventional wisdom inside out and would change my fundamental assumptions about the world, like "You think you want a relationship, but that's not actually what you want." Or, "You end up in bad relationships because your brain is not actually trying to find a good relationship. It's trying to heal a past trauma." That's why I'm exploring the Imago model, because it addresses these issues: my attraction to cold distant women is actually a repetition compulsion designed to re-enact the trauma of my childhood in the hope of healing it. I'm not really sure if that's actually the best answer, but it seems like the best one I've found so far.

[katiegrl]

That's why I'm exploring the Imago model, because it addresses these issues: my attraction to cold distant women is actually a repetition compulsion designed to re-enact the trauma of my childhood in the hope of healing it. I'm not really sure if that's actually the best answer, but it seems like the best one I've found so far.

 

Yeah I can see you're really stuck on this Imago theory. So there really isn't anything we (or even a qualified therapist) could say is there.

 

Honestly though... not sure if you read my post wherein I explained how I had a cold and distant mom and a warm and loving dad.

 

And when I first started dating, I would become attracted to distant men (like my mom) but then rejected them because they weren't warm and caring like my dad.

 

I understood where it came from (my childhood, my mom and dad, it was familiar)) but the Imago model didn't help. All that did was keep me stuck repeating the same unhealthy pattern over and over.

 

It took ME actually forcing myself to extricate myself from this unhealthy pattern... by rejecting distant men from the GET GO.

 

I would meet a distant man, and reject him immediately. No matter how intoxicating the chemistry. He's bad for me.... no thank you!

 

It was hard at first, but then became much easier. I actually felt empowered. It gave me strength!

 

It also took me realizing that my mom had issues that had NOTHING to do with ME. It took me forgiving my mom and realizing she loved me the best and only way she knew how.

 

She knew nothing about my internal process here.... it was all done within MYSELF. With the help of my therapist.

 

After awhile, when I would meet a distant man, a man who I KNEW was bad for me.... I didn't have to force myself to reject him.

 

I NEVER became attracted to him in the first place!

 

This took A LOT of strength and determination on my part Wave Runner.

 

I have said this before but if you remain stuck on this Imago model..... NOTHING will ever change. You will remain stuck in old unhealthy patterns, I promise you.

 

The change has to come from within YOU. By forcing yourself to rid yourself of these unhealthy patterns no matter how difficult that is.

 

By not blaming everyone else (Disney, your parents, society) for your own failures or destructive patterns ..... and taking charge of your OWN life and your OWN choices.

Edited May 19, 2016 by katiegrl

[Wave Rider]

Needy = (1) becoming anxious (and acting on it) when your partner doesn't meet your specific set of expectations (whatever those may be). (2) Twisting yourself into someone you're not in order to please and/or gain the attention or affection of your partner. (3) Not respecting your partner's boundaries and imposing yourself/burdening them with your anxieties (texting, calling, etc.) at any given point in time.

 

I agree with definitions 2 and 3 here, so I feel like we're getting somewhere on this neediness stuff. I'm not sure I agree with definition 1 yet, so I'll I stick with 2 and 3.

 

Second, what exactly are your needs?

Well, my needs are that I like physical affection, I like to spend time with her and do stuff together, and I want her to tell me that she likes me and that she appreciates my talents. Those are the biggies for me.

 

Wave Runner, I am just trying to get some idea of how you actually behave/interact in your RLs that cause your girlfriends to break up with you.

 

I will give some examples of my actions that were definitely needy, and some that I'm not really sure were needy. Many times, the neediness was actually in what I didn't do.

 

First my girlfriend, two girlfriends ago. She was a devout Mormon, and I was an ex-Mormon atheist. I started going to church again so that she would date me. That was definitely needy. I sometimes was afraid to speak my mind to her if I thought she would react negatively. That was needy.

 

This is where the neediness gets tricker. She nearly always rejected my date ideas, and instead had a way of arranging things so that we always did what she wanted to do. I felt rejected and devalued by this, but I never confronted her on it, and my failure to confront her on it was probably needy. She only wanted to see me once a week, and I wanted to see her maybe 3-4 times a week (we went to the same university), and not being more assertive about spending more time with her might be considered needy. She frequently rebuffed my attempts to touch her; but often if I hung back and waited, she would initiate a little bit of physical affection. This was disempowering to me, because she was totally in control. Again, my failure to call her out was needy.

 

I spent a total of about a three hours a week with her, and I texted her only once or twice during the week, usually to try to set up the date. But I never actively pushed for more time time together or more talking or texting because I knew she would become irritated and say no. I really had to walk on eggshells with her. I tried to give her space, but no matter how much space I gave her, it was never enough.

 

My most recent girlfriend was a little better, but again, she'd throw all sorts of stuff at me to try to put distance between us, and I wasn't actually sure what the non-needy thing to do was. I'd gotten ahold of Mark Manson's work by this time, and he talks a lot about neediness. I'd text her and it would take her up to a day or two to get back to me. It was frustrating, but I never asked her to be better about responding. We went to the same university, but she usually rejected any of my plans that included seeing her more than once a week, always telling me that she was too busy. She often wouldn't commit to any weekend plans until Friday, and even then, she'd usually end the date after about two hours. Since I was trying to be non-needy, I gave her space and didn't complain about it to her. I didn't ask her for more time together and I didn't ask her to be more affectionate or to be better about responding to my texts. But inside I was dying because I felt rejected. I knew about attachment styles by this time, so I sat her down and told her that I wanted a closer and more interdependent relationship, and that if she wanted the low-intimacy relationship, that was fine, it just wouldn't be with me. She sort of agreed to try to improve things, but two days later she ended the relationship.

 

I realize it's probably hard for you to get a feeling of what really went on in so short of a description. The gist of it is that I didn't pester them or push for more intimacy, because all of the men's dating advice I'd read said that I should not be needy and that I should give her space. But inside I was dying inside I was feeling quite rejected. So if there is neediness there, it's probably that I wasn't more assertive with them in asking for more time together, better text message response time, and more physical affection. I didn't ask for these things because I knew they would probably say no. Or you might say that the neediness was that I didn't end the relationship sooner.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Wave Rider

[xxoo]

Yes, the neediness was sticking around when treated badly.

 

Things should just fizzle if not progressing. This is where you need to force yourself to walk away and seek partners who show more interest.

[Wave Rider]

It took ME actually forcing myself to extricate myself from this unhealthy pattern... by rejecting distant men from the GET GO.

 

I would meet a distant man, and reject him immediately. No matter how intoxicating the chemistry. He's bad for me.... no thank you!

 

After my breakup with the girlfriend before last, I was really struggling for answers. I found attachment theory, and I decided that I would work on developing secure attachment myself, and that I would look for a secure woman. I set about the business of standing up for myself, asking directly for what I wanted, and doing all the things that a secure person would do. I started looking for secure woman, and I started avoiding cold and distant avoidant women.

 

So when I met my last girlfriend, she really seemed secure, or maybe even a little anxious. I was glad to have found a seemingly secure person. It was really nice to be able to be upfront with her, and to speak my mind, and to ask for what I wanted, and to have an affectionate partner. But as the weeks went by, she started to say and do little things to distance herself from me. After only a few weeks of dating, it was clear that I was dating another avoidant! She was an avoidant in a secure person's clothing! Ugh!

 

How could things have gone so wrong? I had specifically looked for a secure woman. So how did I end up with another avoidant? We ended the relationship, and I sought again for a secure woman.

 

I found a woman who seemed secure, and there seemed to be some chemistry between us. But when I asked her out, she said she was already in a relationship. Even though she might have been secure, I had been attracted to another unavailable woman! I repeated a similar scenario with two other women, three in all. Each time, I had been attracted to a woman that was unavailable to me.

 

A few months ago I met a woman in the study lounge. I asked her out because there seemed to be mutual interest. We went for a walk on the beach, and we made out afterward. I asked her out again, and she said that she didn't think we were compatible. I've had a few conversations with her since then, and in my estimation, I had been attracted to another avoidant!

 

There just doesn't seem to be any way around it: I'm attracted to avoidant women. And they're attracted to me. Like bugs to a porch light. Like graduate students to free pizza. I've tried over and over to go for the secure women, but every time I do, they either end up being avoidant or are otherwise unavailable.

 

So that's why I'm stuck on this Imago model. This model acknowledges that we can't help who we're attracted to, and tries to work with what we're already attracted to. I may be wrong. If there was a way that I could be attracted to secure women, and they could be attracted to me, then by all means, let me know what it is! But I've tried many times to be attracted to secure women and it just never works.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Wave Rider

[normal person]

I was not allowed to do this as a Mormon. I was required to watch only wholesome entertainment that would keep me "pure and unspotted from the world."

 

Conservative religions like this don't mesh well with the rest of society, where most other people are a lot less inhibited. Overly religious people can be quite out of place unless in a homogenous environment, which most places aren't. The world is very impure and very spotted. You can stay conservative and mortgage your life on Earth for life in Heaven or whatever it is, but then you've got to accept the fact that you'll run into problems like the ones you're having while you're alive.

 

Um, no, this didn't happen for me. We followed the typical Mormon standards in entertainment: anything with swearing, sex, crude jokes, or excessive violence was not allowed.

 

The rest of the world isn't Mormon, though. This might be fine for Salt Lake City. But bad, dirty things happen in other places. Most other cultures just accept that as inevitability. Learning to accept and deal with them is an important of someone's development. Like it or not, if you want to be "normal," you need to know to react and respond to things.

 

 

There's a huge disparity between the virtue expected of a person by a conservative religion and the unavoidable hedonism present in society. You can accept some debauchery and keep pace with the heathens, or you can maintain your religious purity and deal with the fact that your life on Earth will be challenging. But you probably can't do both.

 

It seems that most people in our culture claim to be religious, but really only follow the rules of their religion when it's convenient or advantageous for them. As much as I hate people like that, if you want to blend in well with society, that's probably not a bad way to go about things.

[katiegrl]

Read my post again.

 

The part about how I too was only attracted to distant and avoidant men.

 

And upon learning they were distant and avoidant, I *forced* myself to reject them!

 

No matter how intoxicating the chemistry, I knew they were bad for me, so next!

 

Did you miss that part???

 

How empowering it felt for me to take charge of my own life and my own choices?

 

And not throw my hands in the air and say "well there is no hope, I am destined to always be attracted to avoidant men". Ugh!!

 

That is weak, I am sorry. It just is.

 

Yeah it was hard, but it got easier to reject after awhile.

 

Again, it was empowering rejecting something (someone) that was bad for me especially when there was such a strong attraction!

 

But that is how you break an unhealthy pattern. By FORCING yourself to stop the behavior resulting in continuing the unhealthy pattern.

 

NOT immediately stop becoming attracted to distant women, that takes time.

 

But you can choose to NOT become or STAY involved WR, you have that choice!

 

With me, after awhile I didn't have to force myself to reject, I stopped becoming attracted to distant men in the first place.

 

Apparently you completely missed this part of my post, not sure why.

 

Because here you are still feeling powerless, still unable and unwilling to make different choices and choosing to remain stuck because, gee guess I am just destined to always be attracted to distant women.. Oh well.

 

What a weak attitude that is.

 

Now I just think remaining stuck on this Imago theory is an excuse because you are too afraid of change and too weak to leave relationships and be alone. No matter how unhealthy and toxic they are for you.

 

Best of luck.

Edited May 19, 2016 by katiegrl

[PinkElephants]

As I've said, I'm not saying that I believed that the stories were literally true, but I believed that the message were true, messages like "good always triumphs over evil" and "love conquers all."

Ha, if this were true politics would look very different.

 

All you have to do is look around to see that love doesn't conquer all. Love often doesn't conquer distance, addiction, infidelity, abuse, neglect, etc.

 

Even when love is strong it still requires devotion, patience, compromise, compatibility and so much more.

 

You seem to want to possess love; you want the scripted, perfectly smooth version of love that just doesn't exist. Love is both a noun and verb. As a verb, love is an action. It's something that you practice and work at every single day. As a noun, you can think of it as a child. It's something to be protected, nurtured and paid attention to. Love is not a reward that's plopped in your lap because Disney or Mormonism owes you a woman. Grow up.

 

My favorite show is South Park, and I cuss more often than many of my fellow physics students and tell more sexual jokes and make more innuendos. But I'm still not exactly what you might call "edgy" or "dangerous."

Please don't attempt teenage rebellion as an adult. South Park, disgusting jokes and cussing like a sailor aren't attractive qualities. That behavior is immature and crass and won't attract the type of mature, respectable woman you want.

 

I've been living the life of the eternal college student, ...At some point, it seems that life would require a relationship, to heal the wounds of the past and to grow beyond the eternal adolescence that is being a single man.

This thinking may be part of the problem. Relationships don't heal the wounds of the past; you heal your own wounds before inflicting them upon someone else.

 

You really need to grow up. A woman with her life together isn't going to date a child. You need to be what you hope to attract and, surely, you don't want an immature, potty mouthed adolescent.

 

Many people offer simple explanations in the form of blame and criticism: I'm too needy, I'm too picky, I'm a wuss, blah blah blah.

 

This is what I feel powerless to change: my girlfriends all left me, I do not know why they left me, and I do not know what I need to do to get them to stick around.

Are you sure you don't know why? It seems you've been told you're needy, a wuss, blah blah. That's certainly a reason to leave you. Why can't you work on being less needy and more masculine?

[Buddhist]

The thing that I feel that was rightfully mine was the social contract I feel is made to young people,

 

Here is the real problem. There is no social contract, there isn't any 'rightfully mine'. You were sold a tonne of lies (we all were by various institutions, organisations, common wisdom etc). It doesn't matter if we are mormons or something else. it's all just lies and sooner or later (most people figure it out sooner) you realise that and accept it.

 

The world, life, careers, marriage, getting stuff, saving for stuff, happy endings. All just lies. It's a grand illusion.

[Emilia]

I think that once you realise the shortcomings you were brought up with, you have two options: actively try to encounter them one by one, make friends who were raised differently and try to shake of the shackles of an unhelpful upbringing OR be passive, complain how unfair the world is and feel sorry for yourself.

 

I do think it's a choice and people around you will vote with their feet depending on which option you pick.

[Wave Rider]

 

With me, after awhile I didn't have to force myself to reject, I stopped becoming attracted to distant men in the first place.

 

Apparently you completely missed this part of my post, not sure why.

 

I read that part. I just haven't been able to get that to work for me. Not yet, anyway.

 

So far, all the secure women I've tried to pursue in the recent past were already in a relationship. There's a possibility that when I do meet an available secure women, I get scared and run away. That'd be something to look into. I can think of several examples, actually. I know what you're saying, that if I reject the bad ones I'll be more attracted to the good ones. At this point I would probably have less patience for someone who treated me badly, and I would end the relationship sooner. But being attracted to better people hasn't happened yet.

 

it's all just lies and sooner or later (most people figure it out sooner) you realise that and accept it.

 

The world, life, careers, marriage, getting stuff, saving for stuff, happy endings. All just lies. It's a grand illusion.

 

So if people realize at some point that these are all lies, then why do they turn around and tell those same lies to their own children? I still hear parents and teachers telling these same lies to kids. Why? It it all some big grand design - adults lie to children, then the children figure out they were lied to in the process of growing up, and when they grow up, they tell those same lies to their own children? That does't make any sense.

 

That's certainly a reason to leave you. Why can't you work on being less needy and more masculine?

 

See, when people say that I need to be less needy, what I hear them saying is that I need to stop having needs, which is impossible. Sure, if I meet a cold and distant woman who treats be badly, I can act non-needy by walking away and going no contact. But that won't stop me from wanting her. So when people tell me to be less needy around cold and distant women, I hear that as saying that I need to stop wanting to be with cold and distant women, which I have tried many times and just can't do.

 

My ex-girlfriend from two years ago was narcissistic and treated me badly. Even though I've had very little contact with her, I just can't seem to stop wanting her, even after two years of dating other people and reading all this self-help stuff about reducing my neediness. I want her back just as much as I did the day we broke up. I don't act on that desire, but I still want her, and there just doesn't seem to be anything I can do to stop wanting her. I wish I could just change my feelings spontaneously, but I can't do that.

 

It's the same with my most recent ex-girlfriend. I see her on campus occasionally. She treated me badly, but whenever I see her, I still want her.

 

It seems somewhat analogous to an addiction. Addiction is wanting something that you know is bad for you. No one tells a drug addict that they need to stop wanting drugs, because that doesn't work. That's what I feel that people are telling me when they tell me to stop being needy - that I need to stop wanting these women. I really just can't stop wanting them. I can walk away from them, and I have. And I'm getter better at walking away from new cold and distant women that I meet. But that doesn't change the fact that I want them.

[NTV]

 

See, when people say that I need to be less needy, what I hear them saying is that I need to stop having needs, which is impossible. Sure, if I meet a cold and distant woman who treats be badly, I can act non-needy by walking away and going no contact. But that won't stop me from wanting her. So when people tell me to be less needy around cold and distant women, I hear that as saying that I need to stop wanting to be with cold and distant women, which I have tried many times and just can't do.

 

My ex-girlfriend from two years ago was narcissistic and treated me badly. Even though I've had very little contact with her, I just can't seem to stop wanting her, even after two years of dating other people and reading all this self-help stuff about reducing my neediness. I want her back just as much as I did the day we broke up. I don't act on that desire, but I still want her, and there just doesn't seem to be anything I can do to stop wanting her. I wish I could just change my feelings spontaneously, but I can't do that.

 

It's the same with my most recent ex-girlfriend. I see her on campus occasionally. She treated me badly, but whenever I see her, I still want her.

 

It seems somewhat analogous to an addiction. Addiction is wanting something that you know is bad for you. No one tells a drug addict that they need to stop wanting drugs, because that doesn't work. That's what I feel that people are telling me when they tell me to stop being needy - that I need to stop wanting these women. I really just can't stop wanting them. I can walk away from them, and I have. And I'm getter better at walking away from new cold and distant women that I meet. But that doesn't change the fact that I want them.

 

 

 

For me, the gut attraction to a cold or distant woman is a byproduct of my competitive nature. I don't want her because she's truly attractive. I want her because it looks like a challenge... and I want to prove to myself I can. At least that's how it was in college. (some) Women play hard-to-get, and (some) men try hard to get them. The push pull of the dating game there has more to do with enjoying playing it. And if you're playing the dating game then you're not settling down. It was weird, once I realized that the cold distance was a ploy in the dating game, and (at the time I was still playing it), I was able to put it aside to ask if I really wanted to play with her. More often than not, I didn't because the conversations tended to show too much self-focus and I wanted a woman that could see more than her wants. I wanted her to see MY wants. Specifically in the bedroom (hey it was college!).

 

 

Turns out I didn't get one really in the end, but that's as they say another story, lol.

 

 

How you can get something from those ramblings right there, lol.

[katiegrl]

 

It seems somewhat analogous to an addiction. Addiction is wanting something that you know is bad for you. No one tells a drug addict that they need to stop wanting drugs, because that doesn't work. That's what I feel that people are telling me when they tell me to stop being needy - that I need to stop wanting these women. I really just can't stop wanting them. I can walk away from them, and I have. And I'm getter better at walking away from new cold and distant women that I meet. But that doesn't change the fact that I want them.

 

Even the most severe drug addicts are capable of breaking their addiction once they put their mind to it and want to.

 

I agree they will always want that drug. But they have developed the necessary tools to say NO, because they know it's bad for them.

 

Yes it takes strength. It's hard work. But it can be done.

 

Have any of your 17 therapists discussed conditioning with you?

 

You have become conditioned to become attracted to women who are distant.

 

You need to re-condition yourself. Like I did!

 

It can be done but again it takes STRENGTH and determination.

 

And not being afraid to be alone for awhile.

 

Because once I started rejecting the guys who I KNEW were bad for me... I didn't automatically start becoming attracted to the good guys.

 

It took a long time for that to happen. A lot of introspection.... a lot of hard internal work.

 

In the meantime I was alone and I actually loved it. I embraced it!

 

Not sure if you're even understanding anything I or anyone else is saying.

 

You seem to be very stuck on your own rigid theories. Inflexible to even consider another point of view. As you keep rejecting other ways to conquer your issues.... remaining stuck in your vision of how it "is."

 

I am sorry for that. Because with that attitude nothing will ever change.

 

You will just remain "stuck."

 

Oh well, we tried.

Edited May 19, 2016 by katiegrl

[xxoo]

 

It seems somewhat analogous to an addiction. Addiction is wanting something that you know is bad for you. No one tells a drug addict that they need to stop wanting drugs, because that doesn't work. That's what I feel that people are telling me when they tell me to stop being needy - that I need to stop wanting these women. I really just can't stop wanting them. I can walk away from them, and I have. And I'm getter better at walking away from new cold and distant women that I meet. But that doesn't change the fact that I want them.

 

 

It's very analogous to an addiction, but no one is telling to stop wanting your "drug". We are telling you to stop "taking" your drug; stay away from it. Find other sources of attraction and pleasure. Begin to condition yourself, as Katiegrl says, to associate attraction and pleasure with healthier patterns.

 

Keep in mind that it takes most people a good 2 months or so to know if they want to be in a relationship with this person they are dating. If your dating is taking a downturn around that mark, that's not all that uncommon. Lots of dating people just stop seeing each other around that mark. You need to date with the expectation in mind that it will take a couple months to know if she's a good match for you, no matter how strong the attraction. None of us can afford to be blind slaves to our attraction. It will lead anyone wrong.

[katiegrl]

WR, not sure if this is even worth it, but giving it one last shot.

 

I hope you read and not dismiss (as you are apparently so stuck on your own theory of how it is, you refuse to even consider anything else).

 

But after many years of introspection and a very good therapist I have learned A LOT.

 

So here goes.

 

You say you become attracted to avoidant women. You can’t help yourself, and in fact become turned off whenever you encounter a woman who makes you feel safe and secure, the very thing you SAY you want.

 

Again, you just can't help yourself. Fair enough.

 

Why is that? I know why. You will deny it of course because you are not in touch with yourself, but the reason this happens is because you yourself are also avoidant.

 

You are what’s called an “anxious avoider” or “passive avoider.” While the woman you become attracted to are “active avoiders.” You are the one who stays and tries to fix an unhealthy situation.... while they are the ones running away.

 

If you were NOT also an avoider (in your case an “anxious/passive avoider,”) you could never ever tolerate being involved with an active avoidant distant women..

 

You probably wouldn’t even become attracted to them in the first place! Or if you did, you wouldn't stay.

 

This is not conscious on your part.... but you are avoiding intimacy by becoming attracted to, choosing and STAYING with women who are not capable of it and rejecting women who are.

 

You also might be surprised to learn that people can switch back and forth, between active avoider (the one running away), and anxious/passive avoider (the one pushing for more or trying to fix).

 

The same woman who is actively avoiding YOU might become the anxious/passive avoider with another guy if HIS fears are greater than hers and HE is the one actively running away.

 

One thing they both have in common though is that they are both avoiding closeness and intimacy! Different sides of the SAME coin.

 

One passively and the other actively.

 

You should read "He's Scared , She's Scared - Hidden Fears That Sabotage Our Relationships".

 

It discusses in great detail passive (anxious) avoidance vs. active avoidance…. And how they are different sides of the same coin.

 

That coin being a fear of intimacy and commitment.

 

I am convinced this is why you are so resistant to change. And other points of view on how to resolve.

 

These women are "safe" for you. Emotionally safe. They don't want anything from you emotionally. They don't want intimacy. They don't want commitment. They run away from those things. So they are safe, because the alternative, being with a woman who loves you and wants commitment and a close intimate relationship scares the living daylights out of you for some reason.

 

Yeah you will deny. But you really should explore that. And read the book. You may just may learn something things about yourself you never knew or even considered before.

Edited May 19, 2016 by katiegrl

[Buddhist]

So if people realize at some point that these are all lies, then why do they turn around and tell those same lies to their own children? I still hear parents and teachers telling these same lies to kids. Why? It it all some big grand design - adults lie to children, then the children figure out they were lied to in the process of growing up, and when they grow up, they tell those same lies to their own children? That does't make any sense.

 

Life is nonsensical. If parents were only ever imparting 'wisdom' to children the world would not be in the state it is today. What else doesn't make sense is you writing a 7 page thread declaring you were lied to, and in the same thread defending how it must be true because you believe it, and where's my entitlements. You see, life is nonsensical, the people in it don't make sense either.

 

You have 2 choices.

 

- Cling to a victimhood mentality and keep posting on the internet about it. It's entertaining for everyone and I'm sure you'll develop a loyal following of people who love to argue with you. At least you won't be totally alone.

 

- Keep searching for the answer. The answer is different for everyone, so you won't find the Arc Of The Covenant on LS somewhere and suddenly be raised into the Kingdom Of Heaven. It's a little more complicated then that, takes a bit of effort, a lot of frustration and the willingness to take responsibility even if you think it isn't your fault. Responsibility is not about assigning blame it's about realising you're the one suffering the problem and being willing to do whatever it takes to solve it.

 

Best of luck on your holy grail search.

[Emilia]

So if people realize at some point that these are all lies, then why do they turn around and tell those same lies to their own children? I still hear parents and teachers telling these same lies to kids. Why? It it all some big grand design - adults lie to children, then the children figure out they were lied to in the process of growing up, and when they grow up, they tell those same lies to their own children? That does't make any sense.

Because fairy tales are a very gentle way to teach children of moral values on a basic level. Tales have been traditionally the way to pass wisdom down generations, written language actually isn't that old. People have only learned to read on a national scale for the past couple of hundred years.

 

Then as children start getting slightly older, you start with the more subtle stuff as they start having a little life of their own, their friends and classmates don't behave exactly how they would be expected. They start experiencing life in a controlled environment so that black and white aspect of fairy tales gets refined.

 

Their life stops being such a dichotomy probably from about 7-ish when they start primary school.

[Emilia]

See, when people say that I need to be less needy, what I hear them saying is that I need to stop having needs, which is impossible.

No it means you need to become more self-contained and have stronger boundaries. Learn not to lean on the other person for emotional support. I don't know how you are in relationships of course but I know adults that constantly lean on others and are unable to handle the slightest bit of setback on their own. It must be exhausting to be in a relationship with them.

[NTV]

No it means you need to become more self-contained and have stronger boundaries. Learn not to lean on the other person for emotional support. I don't know how you are in relationships of course but I know adults that constantly lean on others and are unable to handle the slightest bit of setback on their own. It must be exhausting to be in a relationship with them.

 

It is. And annoying and painful, and too often you feel like their parent more than their lover. Emotional maturity is so much more important than I realized in my 20s.

 

 

Course to be fair, my goals then weren't the same as they are now.

[serial muse]

My mom told me that she wished she'd never gotten married and never had kids.

 

Well, at the risk of being overly simplistic, it seems like this is why you're so "needy" emotionally, and why you're stubbornly drawn to cold, distant women.

 

OP, you said somewhere I think that you're in therapy. I sure hope this is the main issue you're addressing. The Disney stuff seems like a big fat red herring to me. We can all rail about the over-simplified stories society tells us, but as you noted in your OP, these are all faces of the same basic epic tales we've been trading for centuries, and society continues to enjoy them, so perhaps that isn't really the issue. The issue has more to do with the groundwork you received at a young age that can give your experience of these stories richness and context.

 

Frankly, I think this is about needing validation that you're lovable. That's what neediness really is, at the heart of it. But you're searching for it in all the wrong places, so you are basically dooming yourself to fail. The validation from people who are already giving doesn't feel as rewarding, I imagine - but if only you were to get it from someone who's really tough, then ah! That would prove something. To yourself.

 

When people tell you to pull yourself away from these cold, distant people, that's what they're talking about. I think it's a tall order to tell yourself to change who you're attracted to -- and I don't really think that's the advice you're getting. Instead, people are telling you to change your environment, as a first step to getting some perspective and understanding why you're attracted to these sorts of people, and thereby removing some of their allure. You can be pissed off about circumstances, or you can act to break the cycle. Up to you.

Edited May 20, 2016 by serial muse

[Emilia]

Frankly, I think this is about needing validation that you're lovable. That's what neediness really is, at the heart of it. But you're searching for it in all the wrong places, so you are basically dooming yourself to fail. The validation from people who are already giving doesn't feel as rewarding, I imagine - but if only you were to get it from someone who's really tough, then ah! That would prove something. To yourself.

Exactly right, it is a very dangerous road to be on. This is what people refer to when they say they like 'a challenge'. Spot on.

When people tell you to pull yourself away from these cold, distant people, that's what they're talking about. I think it's a tall order to tell yourself to change who you're attracted to -- and I don't really think that's the advice you're getting. Instead, people are telling you to change your environment, as a first step to getting some perspective and understanding why you're attracted to these sorts of people, and thereby removing some of their allure. You can be pissed off about circumstances, or you can act to break the cycle. Up to you.

Precisely. The OP needs to learn about the concept of internal validation. Love and acceptance have to come from within and from people who are capable of giving it, not chase it from those that aren't.

 

Excellent post.

[NTV]

So I tried kissing my wife frog again last night to see if she would turn into a princess this time. (You know I gotta try every night.) And it occurred to me that I heard some frogs could change gender... Jurassic park CAN be educational, who knew?... and so I went to Googling how to figure out the gender of a frog.

 

 

Turns out the species I married can't change genders, but the one I married is male.... not sure how I could have overlooked the past eight years, but it definitely explains why we haven't had kids yet.

 

 

On the plus side, the state of GA no longer recognizes the Union.

 

 

I'm in the process of contacting an attorney now to sue him for fraud too.

 

 

Cross your fingers for me!

[Lady Hamilton]

Clearly, I've been watching the wrong Disney movies.

 

Most of them are about women, not men.

 

Many of them feature a woman who saves the male lead (Pocohontas, Mulan, Little Mermaid, Lilio and Stitch, Princess and the Frog, Peter Pan, Finding Nemo)

 

Many of them feature women who save themselves (Beauty and the Beast, Alice in Wonderland, Frozen, Princess and the Frog, Mulan, Pocahontas, Peter Pan)

 

An overwhelming majority feature one parent households due to death (Snow White, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Pocohontas, Bambi, Finding Nemo, Lion King, Princess and the Frog)

 

Many feature no parents at all (Alice in Wonderland, Wreck-It Ralph, Lilo and Stitch, WallE)

 

And one features a single parent household with implied divorce (Toy Story)

 

If you dive into Disney's live action movies, there were several that had divorce as a topic (Parent Trap, Freaky Friday I believe)

 

In fact, the two parent household with kids is the exception, not the rule in Disney movies. Only one Disney princess got married and had kids (Ariel).

 

Elsa had no love interest, neither did Alice, Wendy, Vanellope, Dumbo, Pooh, Merida, Oliver, or Lilo. Pocohontas broke up with her love interest. Hunchback never got his.

 

Also... These are movies about fairy tales and modern legends made during a time where the formula was predominantly about overcoming obstacles and finding a partner. What made Disney different was straying away from this formula quite regularly.

 

I think you're blaming Disney for rose colored glasses that, on careful review, they never actually gave you.