I am not sure how to handle this, [advice] needed!

[TO4]

 

Let us know what happens. And again: good for you for taking this step; I know it's not easy.

 

 

She called me last night, started crying and whatever. She told me to explain more about how the way she speaks to me bug me. I brought up things as simple as yelling at me for "missing the f***ing turn* was something that I could not take, or asking if she emailed someone for me and replying "I don't have f***cking time for that. I have things to do." Told her this happened on a regular basis, and this was all outside of her blowups at me where she would directly curse at me.

 

She then told me she speaks like that with her own mom and that's how she's been with her friends and other guys she's dated, and it really hasn't been an issue. She said she experiences a wide range of emotions throughout the day and trying to change would be a big thing for her. Funny enough she told me that I was "overly f**king sensitive" during the conversation. I honestly think this is just how she speaks and these are the type of people she surrounds herself with. She said she knows knows to the average person it would be nothing at all to meet my request, but for her it's very tough. She then went on to say I'm being really cold, and that I'm her best friend. Then said it seems like I'm not even upset about trying to break up with her, like I never loved her, bla bla. She said she is really stressed, breaking out in rashes, etc, more crying. She said ultimatums don't work well with her and this is all coming out of left field for her. Really heard about no commitment to change and I would try to get off the phone, and she wouldn't want to let me get off the phone because she's fears she wouldn't hear from me again. But after not hearing about an actionable plan to change, I just got off the phone and I really have no plan to talk with her again unless she comes at me with a humble plan of action for changing within the next week or so, after that I am going to completely write her off.

Edited May 9, 2016 by TO4

[TO4]

Perhaps so, TO4. If you're interested, I describe the differences I've observed at 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences. It is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW).

 

The thing about her is she doesn't think of herself of a perpetual victim. She thought she was really mean to one of her ex boyfriends and has a lot of regret. She is a little bit more mature than the average BPDer it seems to me.

[bluefeather]

TO4 everything you said in post #26 tells me that this not something that she will be able to change without serious (probably professional) help, and it doesn't even look like she wants to change.

[Zapbasket]

She called me last night, started crying and whatever. She told me to explain more about how the way she speaks to me bug me.

 

Okay, this was promising, that she wanted clarification, specifically as to how her behavior impacts you. But then:

 

She then told me she speaks like that with her own mom and that's how she's been with her friends and other guys she's dated, and it really hasn't been an issue.

 

That's BS. Your post right under this one is but one example; she feels badly for treating an ex terribly? Don't you think that some of not all of the same dynamics were in place?

 

It's funny, my ex said something similar to me on multiple occasions when I called him out on his behavior: "I've never had a relationship like this." Well, first of all, he hadn't had many relationships, and those he'd had were all superficial (the woman he dated before me he was with for two years and never told her he loved her because, he said, he didn't). Secondly, at one point early on when I was at the cusp of leaving him for good I said, "I can't imagine you haven't had a problem with this before," and he admitted he had and that he learned his harsh manner from his uncles growing up. He made no effort to change; evidently how you're treated in childhood can be The Excuse for behaving badly as an adult. Third, I'd always respond to his statement with, "That's because you've never been with a woman strong enough or aware enough to call you out on your crap," which I still think was true. Last, at the very end his own mother told me she recognized it had been a problem across all of his relationships.

 

There is NO WAY this way of speaking has not affected her relationships. Her mom has done her no favors by putting up with being spoken to like that. She may have a few friends who have such low self-esteem that they just absorb her snappish abuse. But I guarantee you that even if unbeknownst to her, people in her life have distanced themselves from her for this reason.

 

Funny enough she told me that I was "overly f**king sensitive" during the conversation.

 

That is absolutely unacceptable. Especially in a serious conversation about you being put off by the way she speaks to you enough to want to leave the relationship. This right here is proof that she's simply not ready to hear you and absorb a lesson from this, despite her tears and calling you for clarification.

 

She said she knows knows to the average person it would be nothing at all to meet my request, but for her it's very tough.

 

Which is precisely why she needs to get some outside help with this. But she's not saying that; this sounds like just another [poor] excuse.

 

She said ultimatums don't work well with her and this is all coming out of left field for her.

 

And that also illustrates part of the problem: it's out of left field for her, because she does not see anything wrong with speaking to other people in that way. Unfortunately, you leaving her might not be enough for her to see the problem and be motivated to do something about it. She might have to have this exact scenario happen multiple times, and even then it might just make her bitter and angry rather than inspire her to change.

 

But after not hearing about an actionable plan to change, I just got off the phone and I really have no plan to talk with her again unless she comes at me with a humble plan of action for changing within the next week or so, after that I am going to completely write her off.

 

You have done the right thing. If she does call you, don't let her off the hook easily. Say she says she want to change and is going to see a counselor. Only take her at her word once she has actually scheduled an appointment with, and seen, the counselor. My ex would always apologize and say he sees it's a problem and he needs to work on it. But then it was always back to the same thing.

 

Sorry I bring up my own ex but it's uncanny how similar your gf and my ex are in this respect. I admire your gumption to get out now before you become entrenched in an impossible dynamic. My ex never changed nor made any effort to. He had other behaviors that slowly destroyed our relationship (a perpetual stuck-ness in his life for which he never sought help until the very end--and as soon as we broke up he quit seeing the counselor which proves he never really was that committed to changing or addressing his issues), but he never took responsibility for them. Everything that unfolded at the beginning of the relationship was a sufficient red flag that I should have left, and the repercussions for having stayed is that I got mired in an emotional confusion that has left a deep mark in my psyche and on my heart. If it would be helpful, check out my thread entitled, "Handling Teasing," where you can see another person grappling with the same issue you're experiencing now. Though it sounds like you have much more clarity on what is and is not acceptable behavior than I did back when this stuff was first unfolding.

 

I don't think you've heard the last from her. Stand your ground; your response to all of this has been truly admirable so far.

[preraph]

Look, I think you know the problem isn't her dog. My dogs sleep with me and they're my babies, but I would gladly keep a wet washrag on the night stand to wash off the dog slobber for someone. Not that my dogs are very slobbery or licky, because they're not (not all dogs do that).

 

The problem is she grew up a certain way and modeled after some parents for whom this kind of behavior is normal. This could be overcome if she was willing to try, but she's not because to her it is normal.

 

The dealbreaker here is that she isn't willing to compromise at all, and a relationship takes compromise. And what you're asking is perfectly reasonable. I think you can find a better match.

[Tis]

I gave her an ultimatum today and told her if not, I'm out. She started crying and apologized, said she had no idea her behavior was affecting me like so and said that she is just not sure if she can change because she has a difficult time with having a filter, and I told her okay then I want to move on. Then she started crying more, sent me a few texts saying she will try to change, but not sure at this point. She was texting me saying I sounded really cold and distant, and honestly my feelings for her are just not very strong at this point.

 

People don't change. Either you are okay with the bad behavior or you aren't.

My boyfriend told me that he has had to break up with a woman who insisted she must keep the dogs I'm the bed while having sex. Normal people don't do that.

I would just leave and save yourself some heartache.

[TO4]

 

Sorry I bring up my own ex but it's uncanny how similar your gf and my ex are in this respect. I admire your gumption to get out now before you become entrenched in an impossible dynamic. My ex never changed nor made any effort to. He had other behaviors that slowly destroyed our relationship (a perpetual stuck-ness in his life for which he never sought help until the very end--and as soon as we broke up he quit seeing the counselor which proves he never really was that committed to changing or addressing his issues), but he never took responsibility for them. Everything that unfolded at the beginning of the relationship was a sufficient red flag that I should have left, and the repercussions for having stayed is that I got mired in an emotional confusion that has left a deep mark in my psyche and on my heart. If it would be helpful, check out my thread entitled, "Handling Teasing," where you can see another person grappling with the same issue you're experiencing now. Though it sounds like you have much more clarity on what is and is not acceptable behavior than I did back when this stuff was first unfolding.

 

I don't think you've heard the last from her. Stand your ground; your response to all of this has been truly admirable so far.

 

Thanks for all the help and sharing your similar experiences. I did feel bad today about being a little cold with her last night and I was hoping she would commit to changing but it is what it is.

[TO4]

Little update.

 

She apologized a few weeks after again, promised to change. We got back together, and then she was good for a month. After that, she figured out a way to paint me as the bad guy because of an incident with her mom at the airport (it was a misunderstanding and bad communication on her part), so I felt bad and stuck around.

 

Downtown was right...this girl is borderline personality disorder.

 

She stuck her finger in my anal hole in my sleep, even though I told her I hated her poking around there and told her to cut it out.

 

 

I honestly feel ashamed for giving her another chance.

[Downtown]

TO4, thanks for returning to give us an update. I'm so glad to hear that you decided to end this toxic relationship and go NC. The sudden temper tantrums you describe -- which are triggered in seconds by a minor thing you say or do -- are warning signs for BPD, not bipolar. Mood swings for bipolar typically are triggered by changes in body chemistry, which usually takes at least a week to develop.

 

I note that, even if she does exhibit strong BPD symptoms, that does not rule out bipolar. A 2008 study found that a third of female BPDers also suffer from bipolar-1. Take care, TO4.

[OnlyHonesty]

I think one of the most dangerous elements of this for you is the hidden impact it has had on your self esteem.

 

I still think you need to figure out why you gave her so many chances to continue treating you like discarded waste. Maybe you were blinded by her physical exterior but maybe it runs deeper than that.

 

I think that it all comes down to boundaries. Upon any behavior you see as unfit, you give a person once chance to address it (set the boundary). If this same behavior occurs again then it's over (enforce the boundary). You simply cannot let others chip away at your self esteem, do you have any idea how important that is?

[TO4]

TO4, thanks for returning to give us an update. I'm so glad to hear that you decided to end this toxic relationship and go NC. The sudden temper tantrums you describe -- which are triggered in seconds by a minor thing you say or do -- are warning signs for BPD, not bipolar. Mood swings for bipolar typically are triggered by changes in body chemistry, which usually takes at least a week to develop.

 

I note that, even if she does exhibit strong BPD symptoms, that does not rule out bipolar. A 2008 study found that a third of female BPDers also suffer from bipolar-1. Take care, TO4.

 

Thank you Downtown. You do a great job of warning people of the dangers of BPD on this forum. It's really something that is not taught anywhere, so the more people you can warn, the better. Thanks again!

 

I think one of the most dangerous elements of this for you is the hidden impact it has had on your self esteem.

 

I still think you need to figure out why you gave her so many chances to continue treating you like discarded waste. Maybe you were blinded by her physical exterior but maybe it runs deeper than that.

 

I think that it all comes down to boundaries. Upon any behavior you see as unfit, you give a person once chance to address it (set the boundary). If this same behavior occurs again then it's over (enforce the boundary). You simply cannot let others chip away at your self esteem, do you have any idea how important that is?

 

I think the reason why I gave her so many chances is that the highs were really good and that I was eventually sucked into the fog. I was very attracted to her and pursued her for a year or so (while dating other girls) before she gave me a chance to date. I think the sunk cost fallacy was at play here, and that she had isolated me and distracted me from so much of my own self that I did not feel well equipped to be single and date again. I was in a very good place before we started dating. I was in great shape. I felt very confident. I had a very healthy outlook toward women and dating. Now I'm gonna have to put in the work to get back to where I was.

 

Yes, I agree with you completely on boundaries. I realize how important that is, especially now. I've learned my lesson and will enforce my boundaries and will take some time to myself to figure out where I went wrong and correct those mistakes before I date again.

Edited January 20, 2017 by TO4

[IfonlyIknew]

I didn't have to read any further than her treating you like crap. She can't control her emotions. Her swearing at you and acts condescending towards you? You deserve better. Then I continued reading about the dog, yuck no I love my pups but they stay out of the bedroom at that time.

[Redhead14]

I have been dating this girl for 5 months (I am a male), exclusively in a relationship. I think she is really beautiful and smart but there are a few issues that keep popping up. I am 27 and she is 22.

 

She can be really condescending, critical, vulgar and can speak in a really bad tone to me. I've told her that I do not appreciate the direct cursing at me and that I don't like when she speaks to me in a belittling tone when she speaks to me. She has been trying to change but says she can only change so much because those aspects are just part of her personality. It really bugs me and she's gotten better but when she starts talking in a tone toward me and I tell her to stop, she gets very mad at me because she feels as if I am criticizing her and that I don't accept her for being "rough around the edges." The last time i told her to stop yelling at me and speaking to me so rudely, she lost it, started yelling at me over the phone, said my complaints "were fnng stupid" and started crying saying she is so stressed. She apologized the next morning.

 

Another issue is her dog. To make something clear, I like her dog and give her dog attention, take her dog for walks and even buy her dog treats. I've told her if we are in bed together in order to get intimate I'd appreciate it if the dog was not on the bed and if she'd wash her face & hands after touching and being licked by the dog. She said she can't because her dog gets sad, so I've never had sex at her place because the dog is ALWAYS on the bed when we are on the bed. She calls the dog her baby. One time I requested that she washed her face after the dog licked her face before we started kissing, she refused, said it was barely a lick but that she would wash her hands and "meet me half way." This lead to an argument because I thought it was ridiculous and I left her house. The last time I was over there, the dog left her bed and she was giving oral sex and the dog walked back in the room, and she stopped what she was doing and asked if she could put her dog back on the bed and that was the end of that. According to her, her therapist told her not to meet me all the way on her dog because otherwise my requests would keep growing.

 

I just don't understand, I feel like I have very basic requests. Keep in mind, she is on the border of being bipolar according to her psychiatrist and she DOES NOT TAKE HER MEDS because she feels as if she doesn't need them as she's only very slightly bipolar. I know I made her sound bad, but she can be incredibly caring, loving and generous.

 

I told her I needed space for a week and I've been debating whether or not to end it with her or try and fix things but I don't feel like I can talk to her and be heard. Been thinking about things for the last few days and just need advice.

 

I think she is really beautiful and smart -- If you take this out of the equation -- how good does she really look?

 

condescending, critical, vulgar and can speak in a really bad tone to me -- Abusive/disrespectful.

 

she speaks to me in a belittling tone -- Abusive/disrespectful.

my complaints "were fnng stupid" -- Abusive/disrespectful.

She said she can't because her dog gets sad -- So she'd rather have you be uncomfortable and grossed out?

 

she is on the border of being bipolar according to her psychiatrist and she DOES NOT TAKE HER MEDS

 

I know I made her sound bad -- She's not bad, she's just not a good partner for anyone, really.

 

End things with her. She is unwilling to meet you even half way or even concerned about accommodating your feelings/needs/requests.

[TO4]

I think she is really beautiful and smart -- If you take this out of the equation -- how good does she really look?

 

condescending, critical, vulgar and can speak in a really bad tone to me -- Abusive/disrespectful.

 

she speaks to me in a belittling tone -- Abusive/disrespectful.

my complaints "were fnng stupid" -- Abusive/disrespectful.

She said she can't because her dog gets sad -- So she'd rather have you be uncomfortable and grossed out?

 

she is on the border of being bipolar according to her psychiatrist and she DOES NOT TAKE HER MEDS

 

I know I made her sound bad -- She's not bad, she's just not a good partner for anyone, really.

 

End things with her. She is unwilling to meet you even half way or even concerned about accommodating your feelings/needs/requests.

 

Yup, she doesn't realize it, though. The apple does not fall from the tree. It's the dynamic of her family. What she does not realize, is though she thinks her family dynamic is normal and fine, that very dynamic lead to many of her self esteem problems and issues. I believe her mother is some form of BPD, and I believe her dad is NPD. Her sister was very mean to her last BF and spoke to him in a very belittling tone, even in front of other people. My ex rationalized it by blaming her sister's ex BF for "being slow," and explained her sister wasn't like that to prior BFs in high school (yup, it's never their fault). What she doesn't know is BPD usually materializes in early adulthood. They both picked up their attitude from somewhere. She told me her family is at their closest when they are all together, making sarcastic remarks about each other, putting each other down. As funny as they might think this is, this is what leads to insecurity. Even her sister sees a therapist. They all see the same therapist. The sister suffered through an eating disorder. Gee, wonder why?

 

I feel bad for the father, though he definitely has his issues. He was abandoned by his mother, and his father used to molest his sisters.

 

I heard one time, while on the phone with my ex, the mom nagged and belittled him for not being at work, even though she made him retire. He seems to spend weeks at a time away from the mom at a lake house, which I suspect is to get away from the nagging and it helps keep the relationship going, as it works on the mom's abandonment issues (since her father was a serial cheater that wasn't around), which just keeps the relationship going.

 

It's a cycle that I don't think they'll ever break unless they wake up but I think they are happy being delusional.

 

What's funny is that the family did not like me. They felt like I did not fit in with them. I guess i wasn't weird enough. My first one on one conversation with the mom, she was talking about how much she hated her brother and how her brother was a terrible alcoholic and drug user, a bizarre first conversation to have. She then asked if I had something similar in my family. Little did I know the mother was trying to bond with me over finding common dysfunctions.

Edited January 20, 2017 by TO4

[bluefeather]

Ok, so are you finally done with this person? Because you are thinking a lot about them.

[OnlyHonesty]

She stuck her finger in my anal hole in my sleep, even though I told her I hated her poking around there and told her to cut it out.

 

This could have caused life long damage (fissures or worse) if she had sharp nails.

[TO4]

Ok, so are you finally done with this person? Because you are thinking a lot about them.

 

Yes, I'm done. Just taking me a little to get over it because I have a lot of shame about things getting this far and just trying to figure out where I went wrong and where she went wrong and how to be better for when I date again. I don't want this experience again.

[bluefeather]

Good luck.

[TO4]

Good luck.

 

Thanks

 

Just another thought came to mine. When I met the mother, I was at their lake house. I was pretty nervous meeting her parents, especially because my EX was talking about how negatively I might be viewed if I didn't sit or stand or speak a certain way in front of her parents. She was practicing before I went in how to sit, and what have you. Plus, the mother seemed cold, and so was the father. When I met the father, he just stared at me, tried giving a real firm handshake, said "GOOD" and walked away to the kitchen, looking annoyed of my presence.

 

At one point, I quietly asked the Mother if she was going on the boat to the lake when she got up from the dinner table, and she just gave me a disgusted look, ignored my question, and kept walking.

 

Imagine, if she acted like that with me, imagine the emotional abuse she put her daughter through.

 

I know my mother, and other mothers, you know--they're more nurturing than that.

 

And she wonders why she has self esteem issues.

 

Another thought, the EX told me her mother didn't like that I didn't spend much time with them "because I was taking her daughter away from her," which I thought was bizarre. Her daughter is in her 20s, and I only saw her once a week when she would sleep over or I would visit her for a few hours. She at least saw her daughter 3-5 days a week.

 

Thoughts from downtown would be appreciated as I am trying to really figure out this BPD thing and how it's a tough cycle in families to break because the parents always pass it on to the kids, and the only way it breaks is if finally the kid has enough self awareness to figure out the root of their problems, heal, and not use the same behaviors they learned from their parents with their own children.

Edited January 21, 2017 by TO4

[Downtown]

Thoughts from downtown would be appreciated as I am trying to really figure out this BPD thing and how it's a tough cycle in families to break because the parents always pass it on to the kids....

Actually, TO4, BPDer parents don't always pass it on to their children. The studies I've seen indicate that each child has roughly a 20% to 30% chance on average of developing BPD if one of the parents has full-blown BPD. This estimate is not very strong because all the studies done are very small, involving less than 300 subjects.

 

The largest of those studies (and the one that seems to have been done with greatest thoroughness and attention to detail) is the most recent one, which estimates that the risk to any one child is 30% when one parent has BPD. Anecdotally, I can report that my BPDer exW had five children (my stepchildren) and only one exhibited strong BPD traits.

 

Again, this 30% figure is only suggestive because it is derived from a small sample size. Moreover, the risk may be much larger if the BPDer parent severely abuses the child -- or if the nonBPDer parent is not around much to offset the damage.

[spiderowl]

Seriously, why are you with her? She's rude and vulgar to you. What matters is the intent behind it. Is she being cruel and hurtful and insulting when she is like that or was she brought up in an environment where that was normal? If the latter, then I think teaching is the best tactic. My neighbours swore and cursed all the time at their kids; it was their normal family life, almost affectionate. Yes, hard to believe but they did love the kids and the kids have grown up loving their parents to bits (and yes, cursing all over the place!).

 

The dog thing, well I completely agree with you and you should not have to share your most intimate love life (or bed) with the dog if you don't want to. I see co-dependency here. I have seen dog owners become so used to sharing everything with their dogs they become blind to the fact that is can seem a bit much to others. While it is up to them how much they share with their pets, they can't expect a partner to feel the same way. They can expect the partner to be kind and caring towards their pet, but sharing a bed and sharing saliva is another matter.

 

Basically, look at how her family treat each other with regard to language and so on before deciding whether to dump her or encourage her to modify her language (if she is truly loving in all other respects). If her family were rough and ready, it is hardly suprising that she learned from them. Re. the dog, put your foot down or dump her. The dog is a huge distraction and I know, from spending time with family who have become doggy-orientated, that it is very irritating that the dog distracts them all the time. People who are very doggy-focused really can't conduct a conversation without losing the thread and paying attention to their animals. It is quite rude.

[spiderowl]

Yes, I'm done. Just taking me a little to get over it because I have a lot of shame about things getting this far and just trying to figure out where I went wrong and where she went wrong and how to be better for when I date again. I don't want this experience again.

 

You haven't done anything wrong. You sound like a perfectly normal, decent person who just got involved with a woman who wasn't. You can't always tell how someone is going to be at first. There is usually the 'honeymon period' when both are on their best behaviour and then, if there is something amiss, things can go downhill. You did your best to ask her nicely to modify her behaviour and she denigrated you and denied your needs. She also assaulted you in a way you had expressed you did not want. This woman breaks rules and crosses boundaries with impugnity. It is quite possible she did not learn how to respect boundaries, as her family sounds an appalling mess, but if she does not listen to you when you make reasonable requests it means you cannot change her behaviour and need to opt out.

[Jj66]

Sounds too much like my ex wife. Run away far. Run away fast. Don't look back .

[TO4]

You haven't done anything wrong. You sound like a perfectly normal, decent person who just got involved with a woman who wasn't. You can't always tell how someone is going to be at first. There is usually the 'honeymon period' when both are on their best behaviour and then, if there is something amiss, things can go downhill. You did your best to ask her nicely to modify her behaviour and she denigrated you and denied your needs. She also assaulted you in a way you had expressed you did not want. This woman breaks rules and crosses boundaries with impugnity. It is quite possible she did not learn how to respect boundaries, as her family sounds an appalling mess, but if she does not listen to you when you make reasonable requests it means you cannot change her behaviour and need to opt out.

 

Sounds too much like my ex wife. Run away far. Run away fast. Don't look back .

 

I now have reason to believe her dad used to molest her growing up, and this is what caused most of her problems. She, however, made up a fake story about a teacher who molested her that got convicted and put in jail. This is a fake story she invented in order to feel safe and in control. And she did that in order to split the behavior of her dad so she didn't have to see her caretaker as evil growing up, and this is what caused her BPD. Thoughts from Downtown on this would be appreciated.

Edited January 23, 2017 by TO4

[Downtown]

I now have reason to believe her dad used to molest her growing up, and this is what caused most of her problems.... and this is what caused her BPD.

TO4, most BPDers were not molested by their own parent. But such sexual molestation, especially when it occurs in childhood, GREATLY raises the risk for developing BPD. My BPDer exW, for example, was sexually molested by her own father for years, starting at about age seven. Before that, she likely suffered from being nurtured by an emotionally unavailable mother -- a mother who later declined to protect her from her father.