Hot and Cold Ex Wants Space

[ZenMasta]

Hi there! Thanks in advance for checking out my post. Any and all advice is appreciated.

 

 

My Ex and I have had a rocky relationship from the get go. We broke up several times throughout the course of our relationship (About 8 months). The fact that we kept getting back together is because our chemistry was undeniable. I think we both were wearing rose colored glasses. We had really bad communication too. I broke up with her about 3 weeks ago, said some mean things to her etc. I ended up going to her house a few days later to apologize for the things I said. Wasn't trying to get her back, I just didn't want to end it like that.

 

A week goes by and last Saturday night, around 1:30 AM, I get text messages from her "I Miss you, come over". I didn't see the texts right away, it was about 2:00 AM at this point, as I'm about to reply she calls. I was at a bar close by to her apartment, so I drove over there and it was obvious she had been drinking. We danced, talked and ended up having sex. The next morning we had sex again and then I left. Later that day, she invites me out for dinner. We had an amazing time, we talked about the relationship like two civilized, rational adults. We made a promise to each other that we'd be more open if something was bugging us, as it always led to the problems that caused us to fight. That night she was super affectionate, she even pointed it out. She had a renewed glow about her. Later on, we had amazing sex and had great bed talk. She told me she loved me and seemed genuinely happy and content.

 

The next day she asked me to come over for dinner at her place. I made dinner for her and everything was going great until, I was about to ask her something about the relationship, but quickly changed my mind. In hindsight, I should have just told her, don't know why I didn't, Ugh. She wouldn't let it go, citing this is exactly what we promised not to do. Her entire demeanor changed after that and for the rest of the night, she looked at me with disgust/contempt. I ended up telling her what was on my mind, but the damage was done. She did lighten up later on, but I went home feeling weird about everything.

 

She called me the next day and again, we talked like two rational adults and everything was great. She wanted me to sleep over. Later that night, I went over there and we watched a movie together. Her demeanor seemed indifferent to me, but I was pleasant none the less, as I really wanted this to work out. When the movie ended she asked me, "So what are you going to do?". Well, the plan was for me to spend the night and she knew that. I played it off and said, "I'm gonna grab a snack and then I'll come to bed". Before grabbing some food, I went to her room and she was already in bed, bundled up under the covers. I kneeled beside her, kissed her forehead and said, "I love you". She said nothing back. I asked, "Do you love me?" she replied, "I hope I do". What kind of answer was that? "Hey, do you like vanilla ice cream?" "I hope I do!". Right?

 

So I walked away and ate my snack and thought about it. I went back to her room and said, "Do you want me to leave?" She said, "I think that would be for the best". I pressed her for information and she told me she needed space. I pressed her some more and she said she doesn't trust me, that she thinks I lie to her all the time, she just needs space and wanted me to go. Realizing this was going nowhere, I didn't argue. I left her without saying so much as a goodbye. The next day I thought about it and realized where I might have gone wrong. I stopped by her house and told her I respected her space and just wanted 5 minuted of her time. I explained my feelings, openly and honestly. She looked at me with a vacant stare, saying nothing. I asked her if she had anything to say, she coldly replied, "I told you I needed space, but you're here". She was right, so I left and haven't contacted her since.

 

TL : DR Version

 

• Drunk Ex reaches out for booty-call, I take the bait.
  
• Next day we decide to give the relationship another shot. Things are going great.
  
• The day after that, things go good for a bit, then out of nowhere, they fall flat.
  
• The next evening we watch a movie together, she goes cold and wants space.
  
• The following day, I reach out to her, I'm denied.
  

 

I don't know what's going on. Have no clue. She's now in control and just left me hanging in the wind. Is she playing games or just confused? Perhaps she started having regrets the following days after calling me drunk. But then why keep asking me to hang out? Should I forget her and go "No Contact"? That's what I should do right? NC?

I'm madly in love with this woman, but I don't want this "on again/off again relationship". My heart can't take the pain anymore. I'm really hung up on her, so it's going to be difficult to let go. I don't know if I have the strength not to be at her “beck and call", as I've always been. What should I do?

 

Understand there is far more context to the story, but it could fill a book.

[Emilia]

So you are participating in this because you like having sex with her. You both have terrible boundaries and no self control.

 

Of course the answer is to stop talking to her and find a girl you can have sex AND friendship with. Good luck.

[Zahara]

I'm really hung up on her, so it's going to be difficult to let go. I don't know if I have the strength not to be at her “beck and call", as I've always been. What should I do?

 

Understand there is far more context to the story, but it could fill a book.

 

It's difficult to let go of someone you love but it can be done. Maybe in your case you have to get sick and tired or being sick and tired.

 

If you know what you are to her, then you have a choice to remain her lap dog or you have the choice to find your self-respect, push through the pain and detach from this. You already know what to do -- there's no in between.

 

8 months of on and off -- if after that short period of time things have been unhealthy, no amount of "chemistry" is going to change that kind of dysfunction.

[frigginlost]

Hi there! Thanks in advance for checking out my post. Any and all advice is appreciated.

 

I don't know what's going on. Have no clue. She's now in control and just left me hanging in the wind. Is she playing games or just confused? Perhaps she started having regrets the following days after calling me drunk. But then why keep asking me to hang out? Should I forget her and go "No Contact"? That's what I should do right? NC?

I'm madly in love with this woman, but I don't want this "on again/off again relationship". My heart can't take the pain anymore. I'm really hung up on her, so it's going to be difficult to let go. I don't know if I have the strength not to be at her “beck and call", as I've always been. What should I do?

 

Understand there is far more context to the story, but it could fill a book.

 

I'm not sure... but this smells very much like there is another party involved.

 

You need to back way, way, off. No booty calls, no relationship talk, etc. Tell her you love her, and you're there for her, but you want a relationship with her. Nothing less. Then walk away...

[Blanco]

Short relationship that was troubled from the start. Didn't even need to read the manifesto that followed because such relationships aren't worth salvaging.

[ZenMasta]

If you know what you are to her, then you have a choice to remain her lap dog or you have the choice to find your self-respect, push through the pain and detach from this. You already know what to do -- there's no in between.

 

I guess that's what I needed to hear. Thanks, Zahara. I have lost my self-respect, it's pretty obvious. I feel like I'm in a hole and every time I'm about to pull myself out, she drags me back in. A vicious cycle. My Ex and I are co-dependents to madness. *sigh*

 

Of course the answer is to stop talking to her and find a girl you can have sex AND friendship with. Good luck.

 

I realize this is the only way out. I'm in pretty deep, but I must find a way to avoid contacting her, especially when I'm feeling lonely and insecure.

 

I'm not sure... but this smells very much like there is another party involved.

 

You need to back way, way, off. No booty calls, no relationship talk, etc. Tell her you love her, and you're there for her, but you want a relationship with her. Nothing less. Then walk away...

 

Good advice frigginlost! Thanks.

 

I've had my suspicions. Especially with the way her attitude has changed over the relationship. In the beginning, she was sweet and nurturing with me, but after I constantly put her up on a pedestal, and especially after fulfilling her every need at the drop of a hat, she became arrogant.

 

She's admitted to being promiscuous, having many sexual relationships in the past, bouncing from one failed relationship to another. That never sat well with me. She always wanted to spend time with me, but it slowly began to taper off. It's my own fault for bootlicking.

[ExpatInItaly]

This relationship has been over for a while. You dated a relatively short time and already this much drama?

 

It's not going to work; you both need to stop trying to force it.

[ZenMasta]

BTW, She brought up marriage and kids on our third date. Red flag right?

 

Haha, am I this naive?

[Gus Grimly]

So you are participating in this because you like having sex with her. You both have terrible boundaries and no self control.

 

Of course the answer is to stop talking to her and find a girl you can have sex AND friendship with. Good luck.

 

^This!

 

Hey man, this girl has you by the balls. You think she's the epitome of all woman? I get it. What you need to do is follow Emilia's advice. You love the sexual endeavors but can't handle what she brings to the table afterwards. She's got what you desire physically. Emotionally, she's absent. Do the math.

 

You will never grab her soul. It's obvious to me and everyone else here. Stay strong and positive, it's not an easy endeavor, but you can do it. I did it and my situation was far crazier than yours. We are here to help.

[LD1990]

BTW, She brought up marriage and kids on our third date. Red flag right?

 

Haha, am I this naive?

 

Massive red flag that is usually a sign of emotional instability.

 

Don't beat yourself up too much about being naive. That's the thing about emotions, they cloud our judgement and it's very hard to stay rational. Pretty much everyone who has been in a relationship has been there, you just have to learn from your mistakes for next time.

[Downtown]

Zen, I agree with all the other respondents that you should walk away. As Emilia observes, you both seem to have weak personal boundaries. And as LD observes, you seem to be describing warning signs for emotional instability. Moreover, many of the behaviors you describe are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder).

 

Specifically, I'm referring to the apparent emotional instability, irrational anger, controlling behavior, inability to trust, temper-tantrums/icy-withdrawal, lack of impulse control, cycle of push-away/pull-back, and always being "The Victim" -- Importantly, I'm not suggesting your exGF has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

 

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your exGF exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as always being "The Victim," lack of impulse control, and a repeating cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back.

 

I'm madly in love with this woman, but I don't want this "on again/off again relationship."

Zen, this repeating cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back is one of the hallmarks of a BPDer relationship. It occurs because a BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. This means that it is impossible for you to back away from triggering one of her fears without starting to trigger the other fear.

 

As you draw close to assure her of your love, for example, you will trigger a BPDer's engulfment fear. Although BPDers crave intimacy, they cannot tolerate it for very long. Due to a BPDer's fragile, weak sense of self identity, she will quickly feel like you're trying to control her -- and she will get the scary feeling of being suffocated or engulfed. She therefore will create a fight -- over absolutely nothing -- to push you away.

 

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you unavoidably will start triggering her abandonment fear. Hence, if your exGF is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits), you were always in a lose/lose situation. You lost no matter what you did.

 

My Ex and I have had a rocky relationship from the get go. We broke up several times throughout the course of our relationship (About 8 months).

As Zahara stated above, this behavior is characteristic of a dysfunctional R/S. BPDer relationships are notorious for having numerous breakups. A BPDfamily survey of about 460 such relationships found that nearly a fourth of them (23%) went through 10 or more complete breakup/makeup cycles BEFORE finally ending for good. About 40% of the BPDer relationships experienced at least six breakup/makeup cycles before eventually ending. And 73% had three or more breakup/makeup cycles before finally ending. See "Results" at BPDfamily Breakup/Makeup Poll.

 

She said she doesn't trust me, that she thinks I lie to her all the time....

If she is a BPDer, Zen, she is so emotionally unstable that she is unable to trust herself. Until, a BPDer learns how to trust herself, she cannot trust others who are in a close R/S with her. It therefore is impossible to convince her that you truly love her and will remain loyal to her. A BPDer is filled with so much self loathing that, even when she is convinced that you love her AT THIS VERY MOMENT, she lives in fear that you will abandon her as soon as you realize how empty she is on the inside.

 

With BPDers, the only exception to that statement occurs during the courtship period, a time of infatuation that typically lasts 4 to 6 months. During that brief period, her infatuation convinces her that you are the nearly perfect man who has come to rescue her from her unhappiness. In this way, the infatuation holds her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay.

 

She therefore is briefly convinced you pose no threat to her two fears. As soon as the infatuation starts evaporating, however, those two fears return and you will start triggering the anger she's been carrying since early childhood. At that point, it will be impossible to prove to her that you will never leave her and that you dearly love her.

 

BTW, She brought up marriage and kids on our third date.

As I noted above, a BPDer's two fears are suspended during the infatuation period. For this reason, and because a BPDer is too immature to regulate her own emotions, a BPDer's infatuation over you will be so intense that she will be absolutely convinced you are the nearly perfect man for her -- the man who save her from unhappiness. It therefore is common for BPDers to start talking about "marriage and kids" very early in the R/S. Hence, this behavior is not unexpected if your exGF exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits.

 

What should I do?

I suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your exGF's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid taking her back or avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. Take care, Zen.

Edited May 7, 2016 by Downtown

[ZenMasta]

Specifically, I'm referring to the apparent emotional instability, irrational anger, controlling behavior, inability to trust, temper-tantrums/icy-withdrawal, lack of impulse control, cycle of push-away/pull-back, and always being "The Victim" -- Importantly, I'm not suggesting your exGF has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

 

I understand there are degrees of any disorder, but this certainly matches the trend that I've seen in her. She definitely lives a unique lifestyle, I think that it attracted me to her, at first. But her "lifestyle" also became a contentious element in the relationship.

 

She's always tired and depressed. She's prone to depression. I didn't mention that. But the victim thing, yeah. She is really good at blaming me for the way she acts sometimes. If she's in a bad mood, it's because she thinks I'm silently judging her. If I raise my voice and talk bluntly to her, I'm "being mean". Really, I walk on eggshells all the time, until I can't do it anymore then it becomes an issue.

 

As you draw close to assure her of your love, for example, you will trigger a BPDer's engulfment fear. Although BPDers crave intimacy, they cannot tolerate it for very long. Due to a BPDer's fragile, weak sense of self identity, she will quickly feel like you're trying to control her -- and she will get the scary feeling of being suffocated or engulfed. She therefore will create a fight -- over absolutely nothing -- to push you away.

 

Reading this really spooked me. I can't believe it. This has happened so many times. Wow! Thank you so much for this incredible insight.

 

Yet, as you back away to give her breathing space, you unavoidably will start triggering her abandonment fear. Hence, if your exGF is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits), you were always in a lose/lose situation. You lost no matter what you did..

 

She does have abandonment issues. Her father abandoned her at a young age and never got over it. She always comes crawling back to me, given enough time. I could have murdered her cat and it wouldn't matter. She'd still come back to me and start the cycle over again.

 

With BPDers, the only exception to that statement occurs during the courtship period, a time of infatuation that typically lasts 4 to 6 months. During that brief period, her infatuation convinces her that you are the nearly perfect man who has come to rescue her from her unhappiness. In this way, the infatuation holds her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay.

 

I didn't even give the full context of my relationship in the original post and somehow you've managed to pick up on all the things I've been thinking. She definitely wanted someone to "rescue" her. She brought up marriage on our third date for crying out loud. This information is blowing my mind.

 

She therefore is briefly convinced you pose no threat to her two fears. As soon as the infatuation starts evaporating, however, those two fears return and you will start triggering the anger she's been carrying since early childhood. At that point, it will be impossible to prove to her that you will never leave her and that you dearly love her.

 

I truly cannot believe what I'm reading. This is what happened over the course of my relationship with her. I seriously am shocked to read everything you have written. I am literally stunned and scared to read on at this point ....

 

As I noted above, a BPDer's two fears are suspended during the infatuation period. For this reason, and because a BPDer is too immature to regulate her own emotions, a BPDer's infatuation over you will be so intense that she will be absolutely convinced you are the nearly perfect man for her -- the man who save her from unhappiness. It therefore is common for BPDers to start talking about "marriage and kids" very early in the R/S. Hence, this behavior is not unexpected if your exGF exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits.

LOL, omg. Like I said, this happened on our third date. She brought up marriage and kids. HOLY SMOKES!! I told you I was scared to read on. You have such limited information about my situation and yet you are telling me actual details about my relationship with this woman. I'm stunned at this point.

 

Downtown, Sir, thank you. Thank you so much. You have no idea what you have done for me. You've given me such incredible wisdom. I am going to read both the links you have given me right away. I'm speechless. You've somehow revealed to me the key to my exGF's psyche. Wow!!

 

Thank you all for the help you've graciously given to me. I appreciate it so much. Oh man, my head is swirling.

[ZenMasta]

Hey Downtown. I had a question for you.

 

My Ex told me a story one time, about how when she was young, her mom smoked pot before going to a retail store like Walmart. She said her mom forgot about her and wandered off. She couldn't find her mom and felt like she abandoned her. It was something like that.

 

When she told me that story I was shocked. I actually held a resentment towards her mom for a while. One night, months later, we were talking and I brought the incident up. My Ex told me that never happened. That she never told me such a story. We argued over it to the point I was questioning my own sanity.

 

There have been other incidents where details about her life, things she told me, changed. It would always cause big arguments. Is this a trait of BPD?

[LD1990]

ZenMasta, I was with a girl with strong BPD symptoms for almost two years and went through a lot of the same stuff you did. My ex often did what you're talking about regarding changing stories.

 

Everyone in the world puts their own spin on stories to make themselves appear in a certain light, but that tendency is more extreme for those with strong BPD symptoms, as they're essentially living in a fantasy-land of their own creation.

 

When your ex told you that story about her mother, you were her knight in shining armor and she was the damsel in distress. Just like Downtown mentioned, she was playing the victim. My ex told me plenty of stories about how poorly people had treated her in the past, and it elicited that same reaction in me that you had, sympathy towards her and anger towards those other people.

 

My ex once told me a story about how her ex-boyfriend before me had hit her. The events were very specific, but when I brought it up months down the road, she told me she had never told me that. When you're in a relationship with someone who has strong BPD symptoms, you often end up thinking you're the one who has some sort of problem, not them. You end up feeling crazy because of everything they tell you. Be glad you got out when you did, there were times my ex literally had me feeling like I was some screwed-up monster.

[Downtown]

She's always tired and depressed. She's prone to depression. I didn't mention that.

Zen, if she exhibits strong and persistent BPD symptoms as you suspect, there is an 80% chance she also suffers from a mood disorder, an 81% chance for a co-occurring anxiety disorder, and a 36% chance for MAD (Major Depressive Disorder). See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

But the victim thing, yeah. She is really good at blaming me for the way she acts sometimes. If she's in a bad mood, it's because she thinks I'm silently judging her.

BPDers are notorious for being super sensitive, which often results in their taking offense from harmless comments and innocent actions. Moreover, as you apparently have already seen many times, a BPDer can easily take offense even when you are sitting quietly and not saying or doing a thing. This usually occurs because her subconscious is working 24/7 to keep her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. Hence, when she has hurtful thoughts or feelings inside, her subconscious will project them onto YOU. Because this projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she consciously is truly convinced that the bad thought or feeling has originated in your mind.

 

Really, I walk on eggshells all the time.

That is to be expected if she is a BPDer. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused partners) is titled Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

She does have abandonment issues..... I could have murdered her cat and it wouldn't matter. She'd still come back to me and start the cycle over again.

Because a BPDer lacks a strong self identity, she doesn't even have a "self" to keep her company when she's by herself. BPDers therefore absolutely HATE to be alone. They sorely need a partner around to provide that missing identity. Yet, when you provide EXACTLY THAT -- giving her a sense of direction and helping to ground her by having a strong personality -- she will resent you for it because she will feel you're always trying to control her. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is titled I Hate You, Don't Leave Me!

 

She definitely wanted someone to "rescue" her.

Not really. I'm sure you've noticed by now that, every time you pulled her from the raging seas, she jumped right back into the water as soon as you turned your head. A BPDer doesn't really want to be rescued but, rather, to receive "validation" of her role as "The Victim."

 

As I noted above, a BPDer has a very weak self identity. To the extent she has any persistent self identity at all, it is the false self image of being "The Victim," always "The Victim." A BPDer therefore keeps a death grip on that false self identity and seeks frequent validation for it. There are only two roles for you to play that will provide that validation. If you don't want her to walk away permanently, you MUST play one of these roles.

 

One is to be "The Rescuer," as you were during the infatuation period and sporadically throughout the rest of the R/S. As long as you are trying to rescue her from unhappiness, the obvious implication is that she must be "The Victim" or you wouldn't be working so hard to save her. Hence, the point of all your "rescuing" was not to rescue but rather to keep validating her role as "The Victim," i.e., the poor damsel in distress.

 

The other role for you to play is that of "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her unhappiness and every misfortune. As long as you continue to take the blame for everything, you will be providing the validation she sorely needs for her eternal "victim" status. The result, of course, is that a BPDer keeps a mental list of every mistake you've ever made (real or imagined). And she will pull out the ENTIRE list for any argument, no matter how small the issue. My BPDer exW, for example, would not hesitate to talk about some imagined transgression I had committed 12 years earlier -- as a way to explain and defend her current rage over an offense I supposedly had just done.

 

I truly cannot believe what I'm reading.... HOLY SMOKES!! I told you I was scared to read on. You have such limited information about my situation and yet you are telling me actual details about my relationship with this woman. I'm stunned at this point.

Zen, you are giving me far too much credit. I am not the one shocking you. After all, I am only describing one of a half-dozen basic patterns of human behavior you already know very well -- a basic pattern we all exhibit to various degrees of intensity at different stages of our lives. When you were a young child, for example, you behaved like a full-blown BPDer 24/7. Moreover, there is a good chance you started behaving that way for several years when the hormones surged during your teens. And, as an adult, you continue to see this pattern of behavior in the young children and teens in your life.

 

What is likely shocking to you, then, is your sudden realization that your adult exGF seems to be stuck in a behavioral pattern you've experienced yourself as a young child (and likely as a teenager too). While living with my BPDer exW for 15 years, I never did realize that her dysfunctional behaviors were those of an adult whose emotional development is frozen at the level of a four year old.

 

Yet, when someone pointed it out to me on the Internet, my understanding of her behavior suddenly crystallized into a coherent whole. And, when I read my first BPD book, a chill went up my spine because it read like a biography of her life. The shock comes from the instant recognition that a behavioral pattern so characteristic of childhood is exhibited by an adult having the knowledge, intelligence, cunning, and body strength of a full-grown woman.

 

My Ex told me that never happened. That she never told me such a story. We argued over it to the point I was questioning my own sanity.

Zen, if she is a BPDer, "questioning my own sanity" is exactly how you should be feeling. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths.

 

This is why that, of the 157 mental disorders listed in the APA's diagnostic manual, BPD is the one most notorious for making the abused partners feel like they may be losing their minds. And this is largely why therapists typically see far more of those abused partners -- coming in to find out if they are going insane -- than they ever see of the BPDers themselves.

 

Nothing will drive you crazier sooner than being repeatedly abused by a partner whom you know, to a certainty, must really love you. The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

There have been other incidents where details about her life, things she told me, changed. It would always cause big arguments. Is this a trait of BPD?

LD provides a very good explanation of this behavior above. It is such a well-known behavior of BPDers that many of the abused partners have given it a name: "rewriting history." Actually, it is not listed as one of the 9 defining traits for BPD. Rather, it arises from the defining trait called "Intense and highly changeable moods."

 

The human condition -- for all of us -- is that our judgment flies out the window whenever we experience intense feelings. This is why, by the time, we are in high school, we already know we should keep our mouths shut whenever we are very angry -- and we should delay buying the ring whenever we are very infatuated. Well, BPDers are like that too -- only more so, as in "times ten."

 

Because BPDers have little ability to regulate their own emotions, they experience these intense feelings far more frequently. The result is that they will have a distorted perception of your intentions and motivations while feelings are intense. This is why BPD is sometimes referred to as a "thought distortion."

 

I caution that a BPDer may tell a lie whenever she feels cornered and is about to be exposed. Lying, however, is far more a characteristic of NPD or sociopathy -- not BPD. BPDers are filled with so much shame that it is very painful for them to add to that shame by lying. Moreover, a BPDer generally has no need to lie. As I noted above, her subconscious works 24/7 protecting her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality.

 

Further, a BPDer is too emotionally immature to have developed the skill of intellectually challenging an intense feeling. Because the feeling is so strong, she is convinced it MUST be true. The result is that BPDers typically accept intense feelings as self-evident "facts." A week later, when the mood has changed, a BPDer may hold the opposite view just as adamantly.

 

She thinks I lie to her all the time.

Likewise, my exW was absolutely convinced I was telling her a new lie every week. Whenever I would ask her to give me a specific example, she would cite back to something she imagined me to have said 12 or 15 years earlier. As I said, BPDers regard intense feelings as incontestable "facts." When the feeling is intense, she is convinced it somehow must be true.

[ZenMasta]

When your ex told you that story about her mother, you were her knight in shining armor and she was the damsel in distress. Just like Downtown mentioned, she was playing the victim. My ex told me plenty of stories about how poorly people had treated her in the past, and it elicited that same reaction in me that you had, sympathy towards her and anger towards those other people.

 

Thank you so much for this LD. You and I should start our own screwed-up monster club! hehe

 

So this is all has to do with propping up their "victim" status? Is it a subconscious thing or are do they fully know what they're doing? I can't believe someone would purposely do this with the intent to give themselves satisfaction.

[ZenMasta]

Thank you for the continued support and advice. This is amazing!

 

BPDers are notorious for being super sensitive, which often results in their taking offense from harmless comments and innocent actions. Moreover, as you apparently have already seen many times, a BPDer can easily take offense even when you are sitting quietly and not saying or doing a thing.

 

This behavior started to happen a lot after the 4-6 month grace period that you mentioned. After a while, the phrase "You're being mean" and "Be nice", started to get old.

 

They sorely need a partner around to provide that missing identity. Yet, when you provide EXACTLY THAT -- giving her a sense of direction and helping to ground her by having a strong personality -- she will resent you for it because she will feel you're always trying to control her.

 

Well, I didn't mention this, she has a toddler and is obsessed with her. I mean, attached at the hip obsessed. The kid is like my Ex's little shadow. It's almost as if they are addicted to each other. It seems like an unhealthy relationship. When her daughter isn't there my Ex would be into me and the relationship, but when the kid is around I play second fiddle.

 

Oh, and God forbid I look cross-eyed at the child, I'd pay the price.

 

She told me she overcompensates because she felt unloved, neglected, and ignored as a child. That her mom chose her stepfather over her. I actually think she got pregnant on purpose and it wasn't a mistake as she claims. The story doesn't make sense, but I'll never know for sure.

 

The child has behavioral problems. That's a whole other issue. The child loves me and at times, when the kid only wants me and attaches herself to me, I get this feeling of resentment from my Ex. Like she's jealous her child wants nothing to do with her and only wants to be with me.

 

Also, she lets her child do whatever she wants. There are definitely no boundaries. She told me she doesn't want to be the typical mother, but to be best friends with her child.

 

The other role for you to play is that of "The Perpetrator," i.e., the cause of her unhappiness and every misfortune. As long as you continue to take the blame for everything, you will be providing the validation she sorely needs for her eternal "victim" status. The result, of course, is that a BPDer keeps a mental list of every mistake you've ever made (real or imagined). And she will pull out the ENTIRE list for any argument, no matter how small the issue.

 

This. This gave me goosebumps. I can't believe what I just read. She told me, after we got back together once, that she will remember every bad thing I've done to her in a list she keeps in her head. I started to believe it every time there was a minor infraction, she would drag it all up.

 

I've played both these rolls. I do take the blame for everything. I am the cause of her unhappiness, she told me so. She's been pushing me to start seeing a therapist and work on myself so I will start treating her better. I've had to ask friends and family if they thought I was an angry person, just to reestablish my own self worth.

 

In the beginning, most of our fights centered around her always bringing up the topic of marriage all the time. Then she wanted me to come by once a week just to spend time with her child (who I was introduced to on the first date). I told her it was too soon for all that. She didn't understand, why I was upset about it. It was a cause for one of our early breakups. After months went by, when I brought up marriage, as I thought it would make her happy to talk about. Nope. SHE didn't want to talk about it. SHE said it was too soon. I was shocked.

 

What is likely shocking to you, then, is your sudden realization that your adult exGF seems to be stuck in a behavioral pattern you've experienced yourself as a young child (and likely as a teenager too).

 

It's funny you should say that, because there were numerous times I thought she was acting like a teenager. She even admitted it once when I pointed it out. Sometimes I thought her child was more mature than her.

Yet, when someone pointed it out to me on the Internet, my understanding of her behavior suddenly crystallized into a coherent whole. And, when I read my first BPD book, a chill went up my spine because it read like a biography of her life.

 

I've been getting chills everytime you make a post!

 

Zen, if she is a BPDer, "questioning my own sanity" is exactly how you should be feeling. Because BPDers typically are convinced that the absurd allegations coming out of their mouths are absolutely true -- they generally have a greater "crazy-making" effect than can ever be achieved by narcissists or sociopaths.

 

THANK GOD. This is blowing my mind. So, I'm not going insane. Talk about self-doubt. This relationship has made me very insecure. I really thought, at one point, I must have dreamed the things she told me. Oh wow. I'm flabbergasted. You don't know how relieved I feel right now. I actually feel some of my confidence returning the more I learn about this condition.

 

You have such limited info about my situation, but it's like you've been there the entire time. I can't believe that BPD is really a thing and that the behaviors are so similar.

 

The reason is that you will be mistakenly convinced that, if only you can figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can restore your partner to that wonderful human being you saw at the very beginning.

 

Seriously, how do you know all this?? This is exactly what I've been trying to do. I want that fun loving girl back. Not the moody, tired all the time, depressed, hot and cold person she's become. I thought once summer arrived she'd be happy again. I was fooling myself, wasn't I? This is how she's going to stay, huh? The girl I fell in love with has been replaced and no matter how awesome I am to her, it's just an exercise in futility.

 

LD provides a very good explanation of this behavior above. It is such a well-known behavior of BPDers that many of the abused partners have given it a name: "rewriting history." Actually, it is not listed as one of the 9 defining traits for BPD. Rather, it arises from the defining trait called "Intense and highly changeable moods."

 

WHAT? They've even coined a term for it?!?! This is surreal.

 

So I didn't make it all up? My brain and memory is functioning properly? This is the best news I've heard all day!!! This is really fantastic information.

Moreover, a BPDer generally has no need to lie. As I noted above, her subconscious works 24/7 protecting her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality.

 

I agree with that. My Ex prides herself on what an honest and trusting a person she is.

 

Because the feeling is so strong, she is convinced it MUST be true. The result is that BPDers typically accept intense feelings as self-evident "facts." A week later, when the mood has changed, a BPDer may hold the opposite view just as adamantly.

 

I think I'm starting to catch on. All the pieces are starting to fit together. It's an incredible feeling. I've been so confused for so long and now I'm finding clarity thanks to your vast knowledge on this subject. What an immense turn of events this has been. I was in darkness and now I can see the light. Hallelujah!!!

 

Likewise, my exW was absolutely convinced I was telling her a new lie every week. Whenever I would ask her to give me a specific example, she would cite back to something she imagined me to have said 12 or 15 years earlier. As I said, BPDers regard intense feelings as incontestable "facts." When the feeling is intense, she is convinced it somehow must be true.

 

You're kidding, right? This is truly unbelievable and very scary. BPDers will accept these fabrications of thought as fact? I'm having a hard time swallowing this information. Though, deep in my heart, I know it to be true. It just gets worse the deeper you go down the BPD rabbit hole huh?

 

Thank you so much. You've really helped me. You're a wonderful human being, you all are! You all have given me such excellent advice. Just know you saved my life!!

[LD1990]

Thank you so much for this LD. You and I should start our own screwed-up monster club! hehe

 

So this is all has to do with propping up their "victim" status? Is it a subconscious thing or are do they fully know what they're doing? I can't believe someone would purposely do this with the intent to give themselves satisfaction.

 

Haha, I could tell you some stories and I'm sure you could tell me some too.

 

This isn't done intentionally. That's why it's almost enough to make you feel sorry for these people, depending on how much they screwed you over. She really did believe you were the greatest thing to ever happen to her at one point. Actually, at many points. Then when her feelings of self-loathing kicked in, she projected that onto you and saw you as the worst thing to ever happen to her.

 

When things were good, my ex treated me like I was a god. I was literally the greatest man in existence in her eyes, and we were meant to be together. Then something would happen to **** it all up. I'd answer a question of hers, but I wouldn't answer it with an elaborate enough answer, and all of a sudden I was the most insensitive, uncaring boyfriend she had ever had and no one had ever made her feel this poorly about herself before I came along.

 

Your ex wasn't trying to be this way, there's just no other way she can be without a ton of therapy and a desire to change. No one would want to be that way. All these behaviors that seem so out there to us are simply subconscious attempts to mask inner misery.

[Downtown]

She felt unloved, neglected, and ignored as a child. That her mom chose her stepfather over her.

In the 2008 published study I cited above, it was found that 70% of BPDers are convinced they had been abandoned or abused in childhood.

 

 

I get this feeling of resentment from my Ex. Like she's jealous her child wants nothing to do with her and only wants to be with me.

The strong fear of abandonment is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. When triggered, this fear oftentimes shows itself in the form of irrational jealousy -- jealousy not only of other women but also of your closeness to other family members and friends. My exW, for example, was jealous of my close relationship and bonding -- over a 15 year period -- with her children (i.e., my step children). And she was so jealous of my adult foster son that she quickly grew to hate him.

 

Also, she lets her child do whatever she wants. There are definitely no boundaries. She told me she doesn't want to be the typical mother, but to be best friends with her child.

As Emilia was quick to observe at the beginning of this thread, you are describing a woman who has very weak personal boundaries. The reason they are weak -- if your exGF is a BPDer -- is that she has only a fragile and weak sense of who she really is.

 

Sometimes I thought her child was more mature than her.

If your exGF is a BPDer, she likely has the emotional development of a 3- or 4-year-old child. The vast majority of BPDers, however, are "high functioning," i.e., they generally get along fine with business associates, classmates, casual friends, clients, and total strangers. The reason is that NONE of those people are close enough to pose a threat of abandonment or engulfment.

 

There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. This is why it is common for BPDers to excel in very demanding professions (e.g., professor, psychologist, social worker, or medicine) -- expressing compassion and caring all day long to strangers and colleagues -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love them.

 

This is how she's going to stay, huh?

In most major cities, there are excellent treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT) that teach BPDers how to acquire the emotional skills the rest of us learned in childhood. It nonetheless is rare for a BPDer to have both the self awareness and ego strength required to remain in such a program long enough (several years at least) to make a real difference. I would be surprised if as much as 1% of the high functioning BPDers ever accomplishes that. Sadly, the very nature of the condition makes it invisible (i.e., "ego-syntonic") to the person suffering from it.

 

No matter how awesome I am to her, it's just an exercise in futility.

Yes, that is how it is if she is a BPDer. No matter how much you sacrifice yourself to help her, it will be impossible for you to build up a store of good will that you can later draw on during the hard times. BPDers are too immature to maintain such a store of good will -- and too immature to be able to restrain their bad feelings toward you by considering their good feelings toward you.

 

They are too immature to be able to tolerate experiencing strong conflicting feelings at the same time. Instead, a BPDer will flip -- in just ten seconds -- from adoring you to devaluing you. And she will flip back again, perhaps a day or a week later, just as quickly. This is called "black-white thinking," which is one of the hallmarks of BPDer behavior I discuss in Rebel's Thread.

 

As occurs with BPDers, this type of behavior also is evident in the behavior of young children -- who will adore Daddy when he is bringing out the toys but will immediately flip to hating Daddy when he takes one of them away. Like young children, BPDers are too immature to handle strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, uncertainties, and the other gray areas of interpersonal relationships.

 

Hence, trying to build up a store of good will with a BPDer is "an exercise in futility," as you say. It is as futile as trying to build a lasting sandcastle beside the sea. It is certain to be washed away by the next tide of feelings surging through her mind. As is true of young children, a BPDer's perception of "reality" is whatever intense feelings she is experiencing AT THIS VERY MOMENT.

 

My Ex prides herself on what an honest and trusting a person she is.

She likely has good reason to be proud, even if she does exhibit strong and persistent BPD traits. BPDers generally are not bad people. Their problem is not being "bad" but, rather, being "unstable." That instability arises from their lack of a strong self identity and inability to regulate their own emotions.

 

Moreover, it is common for BPDers to exhibit a warmth of expression and and an emotional purity that otherwise is only seen in young children. This makes it easy for people to fall in love with them. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both suffered from full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

BPDers will accept these fabrications of thought as fact?

No, with BPDers, you typically are not seeing "fabrications of thought" but, rather, distortions of thought. As LD explained, those distortions occur in the subconscious, which allows the conscious mind to be convinced they truly reflect reality. If your exGF really is deliberately fabricating her statements, you are describing a behavioral trait of narcissism (NPD) and sociopathy (ASPD). I caution that having one PD does not rule out having another one too. On the contrary, the vast majority of folks suffering from a PD also exhibit full-blown traits of another PD as well. With female BPDers, for example, 72% also exhibit another full-blown PD too (e.g., 32% of female BPDers also exhibit full-blown narcissism). See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

It just gets worse the deeper you go down the BPD rabbit hole huh?

Yes, from what I've seen, it typically gets worse and worse for 12 to 15 years. At that point the BPDer usually puts her partner out of his misery by walking away from him for good, i.e., permanently. This occurs because, as the years go by, the BPDer becomes (a) increasingly resentful of your inability to make her happy (an impossible task) and (b) increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging and sees you developing stronger personal boundaries (which she mistakenly believes is a sure sign you are planning to abandon her).

 

I'm having a hard time swallowing this information. Though, deep in my heart, I know it to be true.

Learning to understand this behavioral pattern at an intellectual level is the EASY part. What is HARD is convincing your "inner child" -- i.e., the intuitive, emotional part of your mind -- that it is really true. There is a big difference between "knowing" something intellectually and believing it to be true at a gut level, which would allow you to actually act on it. So please don't beat yourself up if you need time to pull it off.

 

The reason this is so difficult is that our inner child makes the vast majority of our important decisions. I was 50 years old before I understood this simple notion. And it took me 12 years to do it. What happened was that, for 12 years, I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly family group meeting with the psychologist who was treating him. Whenever the psychologist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year.

 

The psychologist was always greatly amused by my explanations. He would chuckle and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making nearly all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would almost always win. But I just could not swallow this concept.

 

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it dawned on me one night -- right as I was about to drift into sleep -- why he had to be right. My inner child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of what is fun and what is not fun. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy.

 

My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in the lap of my inner child. This is why learning about my exW's problem (BPD) and my problem (excessive caregiver) is the easy part. What is difficult is internalizing that understanding, i.e., transforming knowledge into wisdom, which requires that my feelings catch up with my intellectual thoughts.

 

Simply stated, I must persuade my child that my adult views of my ex's illness and my own excessive caregiving are correct -- an objective I have mostly attained. Had I failed in that effort, I would remain stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because my child will be calling nearly all the shots.

 

Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year to bring my child's feelings into alignment with my adult's understanding. After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it.

 

Yet, because my child was lagging over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a sick loved one.

 

Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend. My adult dragged my child -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way -- to that shocking truth. How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for many years she was my best friend -- that she never even had that capability?

 

To bring the child and adult into alignment, what helped me a little was talking about my new found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over. So what helped the most was coming to a forum like this, where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That has to be done because the child largely learns from emotional experiences -- not from logic.

 

Writing and talking will help you internalize the information, turning knowledge into wisdom -- by connecting thoughts to feelings. If you doubt that, simply ask any university professor about its effectiveness. He likely will tell you he never had an intuitive, deep-level understanding of his subject matter until he had to teach it to someone else -- or had to write it down very precisely when doing research. Hence, what I found most helpful is talking about it to anyone who will listen and writing about it to anyone who will write back.

[ZenMasta]

She really did believe you were the greatest thing to ever happen to her at one point. Actually, at many points. Then when her feelings of self-loathing kicked in, she projected that onto you and saw you as the worst thing to ever happen to her.

 

Thank you LD.

 

Your statement holds a lot of truth for me. During the week of NC since she told me she needed 'space', I stumbled upon a video I took of her about 3 months into the relationship. She was dancing, happy and so vibrant. I had forgotten what she was like then. It was almost as if she were another person entirely. I had not seen this side of her for a long time.

 

To be honest, I had not been handling the change in her very well. We'd get into fights, I'd come home and hit the bottle, bigtime. That's when my demons came out and so did the truth. I regret being so brutally honest/mean with her. It was bad and felt horrible about it the next day. I can't believe she kept coming back, as this happened a few times.

 

I don't blame her for finally ending it for good. She told me I was right, that she would never be able to forget all the things I had said to her. It doesn't matter really, as it was a toxic relationship for both of us. Just glad I was able to get my belongings back from her and walk away on good terms.

 

She did forgive me, though. She is just incapable of forgetting. I know I made some pretty bad mistakes, but I feel like I was driven there. Trust me, in all the years I've been alive, I've never acted that way towards another human being. I'm not trying to rationalize, excuse the behavior or make myself feel better. I'm just reflecting on my life up until this point.

 

I know I have much work to do on myself right now. I'm going to make a living amends to her. Understanding, acceptance, kindness, selflessness, Self-awareness, personal growth, humility, and a strong moral compass. These are the aspect of my life I shall focus on.

 

Thank you all for the guidance you have bestowed upon me. I am very grateful to you.

[ZenMasta]

.....expressing compassion and caring all day long to strangers and colleagues -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love them.

 

This is the story of my life. I just thought it was because she was always stressed out, but now I see that it was yet another symptom of this disorder, if that's what it is.

 

As Emilia was quick to observe at the beginning of this thread, you are describing a woman who has very weak personal boundaries.

 

Right, this is so obvious. I couldn't see it before, but this is why she allows her daughter to pretty much control the situation. Her weak personal boundaries were also affected by her alcohol consumption i.e., after we had a breakup, I'd get the 2 AM drunken "I miss you, come over" text messages. Thus, starting the cycle all over again.

 

• 
  Moreover, it is common for BPDers to exhibit a warmth of expression and and an emotional purity that otherwise is only seen in young children. This makes it easy for people to fall in love with them.

 

This pretty much sums it up. I fell in love with this side of her. The youthfulness, the silliness and the warmth. That innocence was there too.

 

Not to be crass, but once she began oversharing certain aspects about her past with me, her sexual promiscuity (too NSFW to share), telling me she had a VD AFTER we started having unprotected sex, being highly opinionated about some very weird things etc., I started to internalize all of it and it began to really bring me into a place of darkness.

 

I mean, she came off so very sweet and innocent in the beginning, but then that vision I had of her would continually be shattered with the stuff she shared with me about herself and her past. Things, that most people, would be ashamed to admit to. Things you probably should never tell your partner, girlfriends sure, but not your significant other.

 

On that note, I recently found out some other disturbing things about her from my friends. Another distortion of her truth. I was shocked to find out the reality of it. This whole thing has done a number on me. It's going to be a while before I fully recover I think.

 

Thank you, Downtown for sharing your story and your wisdom with me. I need to figure out what the heck I put myself through and why.

[LD1990]

You're welcome ZenMasta, glad I could be of some assistance.

 

It's crazy how much those of us who have dealt with this can relate to one another. The stuff you said rang so true to my experience. Saying you've never acted that way towards another human being - yep, been there. I never thought I'd be in one of those turbulent relationships.

 

I often told my ex one of the things I loved about her was how she could be so many things, depending on the situation. Professional, sexy, youthful, mature, silly. I always thought it was some amazing quality she had.

 

It blows my mind how much my ex could change from one instant to the next. It was like she was a completely different person. She literally went from caring about me so much during the relationship, to not giving a damn about me when we broke up.

 

There's nothing wrong with appreciating the good times, just remember all the dark times that came along with them so you don't get too nostalgic about a toxic relationship. Stay strong, trust me it gets a lot better as you stay NC!

[Emilia]

I need to figure out what the heck I put myself through and why.

You just weren't protecting yourself with boundaries, that's all. Many of us are drawn to a bit of weird. You learn to recognise the signs, don't worry.

[ZenMasta]

It's crazy how much those of us who have dealt with this can relate to one another. The stuff you said rang so true to my experience. Saying you've never acted that way towards another human being - yep, been there. I never thought I'd be in one of those turbulent relationships.

 

It's quite amazing, to be honest. My Ex asked once if I had ever treated the women in my past relationships the wait I treated her. I told her no, I hadn't. She exclaimed, "Well then why do you treat me so poorly?!?!". Honestly, I had no idea why I acted that way. Now, I'm starting to understand.

 

I often told my ex one of the things I loved about her was how she could be so many things, depending on the situation. Professional, sexy, youthful, mature, silly. I always thought it was some amazing quality she had.

 

It blows my mind how much my ex could change from one instant to the next. It was like she was a completely different person. She literally went from caring about me so much during the relationship, to not giving a damn about me when we broke up.

 

The two lines I highlighted are identical to my situation. Seriously, it's like we dated the same person and we acted in a similar manner, or something.

 

My Ex cried, I ended up being the one to shed tears. I was brought to my wits end and she acted like she could care less. That really hurt too.

 

There's nothing wrong with appreciating the good times, just remember all the dark times that came along with them so you don't get too nostalgic about a toxic relationship. Stay strong, trust me it gets a lot better as you stay NC!

 

I'm having a rough time with NC. Even though I know her and I are no longer a thing. Those "Happy" memories do find their way to slip into my head through the day. This has been a whirlwind for me, I think this BU might take me longer to recover from than my previous ones.

 

Thanks again LD. It's very comforting to hear the things you say.

[ZenMasta]

You just weren't protecting yourself with boundaries, that's all. Many of us are drawn to a bit of weird. You learn to recognise the signs, don't worry.

 

I thought I did have good boundaries. Obviously not. I need to read up on what are good boundaries in relationships. I think I need a refresher course. I might check out the "No more Mr. Nice Guy book". I have heard good things.

 

Thanks Emilia!