noname Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Originally posted by katiebour *Shrug* I'm no expert on brain development, but I recently read in the news: "Researchers examined magnetic resonance imaging scans, or MRIs, of the brains of 13 children over the course of 10 years. Areas of the brain that deal with reasoning and integrating information from the senses - areas like the prefrontal cortex - were among the last to mature. Scientists at the NIH campus in Bethesda, Md., have found that this vital area develops through the teenage years and isn't fully mature until age 25." The full article is here: http://www.desertsunonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050605/NEWS04/506050323 Obviously, you are correct when you say everyone is different, and that younger people can act in a mature manner, while older people can act immaturely. My own experience with men has been that men the same age as myself tend to act proportionately younger. Maybe this is simply because I act older Again, everything I say is my own opinion- I make no claims that it is anything else. As far as the boyfriend goes- I met my ex when I was 21 and he was 22. He had an extremely checkered past- experimenting with drugs, extensive marijuana use, reckless behavior- so on and so forth. By the time I met him, he had left that part of his life behind, and during the three years we were together, we both continued to grow and learn. He is currently a mortgage specialist who just bought his own condo, is a dependable and reliable worker, and a good and caring man. People do grow out of immature, stupid behavior. Of course, emotionally, I was his first long-term relationship, while I had already had another long-term relationship, so his inability to communicate his feelings effectively while we were together could simply have been due to lack of previous experience. In any case, it sounds like Savannah and her boyfriend have called it quits, so it's really a moot point. I guess my main point is that most boys like porn, and I don't think that it's meant as an insult or affront to a woman (again, my opinion.) The drug stuff is disturbing- I personally have a big problem with substance abuse. But, again, my ex grew out of it. In any case, take what you like and leave the rest- after all, it's just my opinion Take care. i hear you. sorry, i didn't mean to come off like i was jumping on you. i try to be careful about that, i need to try harder...
katiebour Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Again, this is just my opinion: Honesty is the best policy. If you have to play head games in order to "keep" a guy, then is that really a healthy relationship? Do you really want to have to manipulate the situation by faking emotions or lack thereof in order to keep a guy coming around? You may be right, OC- Savannah might lose this guy if she's honest with him. But if, deep down, he's thinking, "I really don't want to continue this relationship," then for god's sake, get it over with! Better now than years down the line. Again, just my opinion. Good luck.
Athena21 Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 But it seems that I sort of get what I want when I do things such as going to his house or apologizing. I just want closure either way, if he wants to really be with me a compromise about everything, then fine and if he wants to break up indefinitely then I want to know so I can move on.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Originally posted by katiebour But if, deep down, he's thinking, "I really don't want to continue this relationship," then for god's sake, get it over with! Better now than years down the line. Again, just my opinion. Good luck. Based only on her opinion, I personally think he wants to see her as a FWB. He doesn't want to break it off totally (for the sex) but he doesn't want her full time in his life. Out of respect alone, I would walk away. I'm the kind of person that wants it all or nothing. There is no "in-between" with me. If Savannah respects herself, she'll take a few weeks away from him with no contact to see how she feels. It's my guess her self-esteem is taking a blow (clingy people=no self-esteem) and she's desperately trying to hang on to her relationship and in the process only serving to push him further away.
Athena21 Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 I am not this person that this situation is forcing me to be. There is no in between with me either and I think that is why I am trying so hard to salvage the relationship. I don't want to break up, the only other option is to be together and work things out. It's the hardest thing to ignore someone you love and pretend that you are not hurting when you really are.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Originally posted by Athena21 But it seems that I sort of get what I want when I do things such as going to his house or apologizing. I just want closure either way, if he wants to really be with me a compromise about everything, then fine and if he wants to break up indefinitely then I want to know so I can move on. When you go to his house apologizing, you are only cementing the notion in his mind that you can not live without him and he has you on a string and can have you whenever he wants you. That he can act however he wants and you'll accept it because you do not have repercussions for him crossing your boundaries. He does not respect you. Closure is such a loose word as we almost never get the closure we want or expect. Don't expect it in this case either. If you want an answer, then by all means go to him again and ask him for his answer. He will most likely say "yeah let's end this." By everything you've told me, he wants to see what life is like without you clinging to him and you're not giving him the chance. If you want to continue the relationship, pull away. Respect yourself and learn to set boundaries and not let him cross them. This is a sinking ship relationship. He's young and has a mind set that he wants to do things his way and doesn't want you "mothering" or otherwise "interfering" with how he wants to live his life (Porn, alcohol, drugs, etc...). He wants to "sow his oats" and sometimes you just have to let people see that side of the pasture before they realize the grass is greener where they were. Whatever you decide to do, understand I am a neutral third party and do not benefit in any fashion should you take or disregard my advice. I am merely offering my opinion. Do whatever you feel you must.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Originally posted by Athena21 I am not this person that this situation is forcing me to be. There is no in between with me either and I think that is why I am trying so hard to salvage the relationship. I don't want to break up, the only other option is to be together and work things out. It's the hardest thing to ignore someone you love and pretend that you are not hurting when you really are. I'm not saying "ignore him." I am saying LOVE YOURSELF. How can you expect anyone to love and respect you when you don't even love and respect yourself? I would suggest reading some books on self-esteem and learning to set boundaries. Love makes us do some stupid things but if we love OURSELVES it makes all the difference in the world how we perceive things to be (reality) vs what we THINK they are (fantasy land).
katiebour Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 This is a sinking ship relationship. He's young and has a mind set that he wants to do things his way and doesn't want you "mothering" or otherwise "interfering" with how he wants to live his life (Porn, alcohol, drugs, etc...). He wants to "sow his oats" and sometimes you just have to let people see that side of the pasture before they realize the grass is greener where they were. I agree with you OC. Again, I think it's rare that women can get the kind of emotional support and companionship they are looking for in a man under the age of 30. They just aren't ready to settle down. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that is my experience. In my experience "clinginess" results from not having your needs met- in my case, I had to learn to fill my own needs, engage in my own hobbies, and disconnect myself from the idea that a relationship will give you everything the movies tell you it will. Here's my thought- if Savannah gives this guy a month of NC, and he comes crawling back, pleading for her companionship, then great. But what happens when the relationship re-starts and Savannah expects him to fill some of her needs? Does he play the same "hot-again cold-again I need space" game? It's hard to pretend to be someone other than yourself. Trying to deny your own needs in order to salvage a relationship that doesn't fill them will only work so long. It's like trying to say that "My relationship doesn't provide the nourishment that I need. Instead of trying to find other ways to nourish myself, I simply won't eat." Sooner or later you will either starve or binge. I'm so glad I'm dating a 37-year old! He's long past the "sowing oats" stage and recognizes a good thing when he sees it. Take care.
crazy_grl Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Originally posted by katiebour Again, this is just my opinion: Honesty is the best policy. If you have to play head games in order to "keep" a guy, then is that really a healthy relationship? Do you really want to have to manipulate the situation by faking emotions or lack thereof in order to keep a guy coming around? You may be right, OC- Savannah might lose this guy if she's honest with him. But if, deep down, he's thinking, "I really don't want to continue this relationship," then for god's sake, get it over with! Better now than years down the line. Again, just my opinion. Exactly. As well-intentioned as OC is, he's just giving her additional ways to cling on to this guy using games. Even though I don't think that's the way he's intending the advice, that's the way she's taking it because her self-worth is completely revolving around this guy. OC is talking about getting her self confidence back, but it seems like all she's hearing is "If you pretend to be like this, you can get him back." She needs to get rid of the guy who's dragging her self-esteem back instead of clinging on to him or to the hope of getting him back. Until she lets go of that, she won't get her self-esteem back. That's why confronting him and getting him to finally push her completely away may be bad for the "relationship", and but it's certainly not what's best for Savanah. If he finally gets fed up enough with her honesty and requests for respect, he'll stop sending her these mixed messages and she can move on. Maybe then the guy will come back to his senses (or maybe he won't). And having moved on, gotten her head clear, and regained her self-esteem, Savanah will be better able to evaluate rationally whether she really still wants a relationship with a guy who would treat her this way. Savanah, you should think about why you want to be with this guy the way he is now. Consider the fact that he's not going to change back into the man he was before all this started happening. Do you really want to be with that guy? Or are you just holding on to the hope that he will turn back into who he was? Don't think about or treat him like he's that guy. Treat him like the porn-loving, disrespectful guy he's acting like right now. Also, is a big part of the reason you want him back so badly because he doesn't want you?
Athena21 Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Savanah, you should think about why you want to be with this guy the way he is now. Consider the fact that he's not going to change back into the man he was before all this started happening. Do you really want to be with that guy? Or are you just holding on to the hope that he will turn back into who he was? Don't think about or treat him like he's that guy. Treat him like the porn-loving, disrespectful guy he's acting like right now. I think that is a great idea. I continue to see the pictures of us when we were happy together and I see that guy that he was before, I am totally holding on to the hope that he will come back. I am definitely going to try to get over him by thinking of him as the a**hole he is being now. Thank you
Athena21 Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Also, is a big part of the reason you want him back so badly because he doesn't want you? Although, in all reality, I "want" him simply because I love him, whether he smothers me or ignores me, I still feel the same.
katiebour Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 It's ok to still love him, Savannah- we can't simply turn off our feelings because we want to. By the end of our relationship, my ex was ignoring me 90% of the time, apologizing for his behavior, but making no effort to correct it, and dodging every effort I made to communicate with him, including counseling. Did I still love him? Of course. Do I still love him, 6 months down the road? Yes. I will probably love him for a long time to come. However, I recognize that being with him was not the best thing for either myself or him, and I'm sure that eventually I will feel an even deeper love for a man who is an even better match for me. I'm in the very beginning of a relationship that looks better than anything I've had before. I still think you should lay your cards out on the table, and give him a chance to keep the relationship going. If he thinks that you simply saying "ok" over the phone means that you want to end the relationship, when in reality you were, as you said, "just trying to be strong," then it's obvious that he, like most men, is not a mind-reader (c'mon guys- just whip those Jedi powers into shape! ) and that he may not be sure where you stand. If he decides that he doesn't want to be in the relationship, after you've been honest with him about your feelings and your stand on his behavior, then you've done everything that you can- and that, my friend, is all that you can do. You can't control his behavior or change him. If he decides to change, then obviously the man you loved is still in there, and more kudos to him and you. If he likes the way he's going and doesn't want to change, then let him go. Be honest with yourself, and him, or as OC says in his signature, "To thine own self be true." Be strong! You deserve the best this life has to offer!
Athena21 Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Your advice really hits me on a personal level because it seems that it's not as hopeless as everyone is saying. The first response I get from people about this situation is that he is cheating or he is growing out of our relationship, but compiling all the advice I have received I think he just needs to have time away from me to realize what he really wants. Hopefully it will be me in the end!
katiebour Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 You're welcome, Savannah I'm pulling for you, and I hope it works out. If it doesn't then remember that it's not the end of your life- it's simply the end of the lesson, and the beginning of the rest of your life. I really like the hopeful tone of Rascal Flatt's song "God Bless the Broken Road" when I start thinking about my past relationships. It just reminds me that I learned something valuable from each one, and that those experiences are helping me to become the kind of woman my soul mate will love. And yes, I am an optimist. Let me leave you with a poem I wrote about a month ago: Thoughts After A First Date Good conversation in a romantic garden A fun meal with a new friend. Walking downtown paying more attention to one another than our surroundings. Those awkward little moments- trying to cram a lifetime of information into a few hours. The things we really want to know- Too personal, yet, to ask. Is this the beginning of a long journey or a short detour off the main track? What would it be like to share a kiss with you? Will I find out? (2005) Or, as my new romantic interest says: dum spiro spero- while I breathe, I hope. Take care.
Athena21 Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Does anyone think that reminding him of how much fun we have had together would make him think more about what he is doing to compromise our relationship?
katiebour Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 Does anyone think that reminding him of how much fun we have had together would make him think more about what he is doing to compromise our relationship? I don't think so, Savannah. The issue is not whether you ever had a great relationship- obviously you did, and I'm sure he remembers that too. The issue is whether, right now, he wants to continue the relationship or not. Guilt trips or "remember when" aren't going to change his feelings, unfortunately. It simply remains to find out what his feelings are and act accordingly. Good luck.
Athena21 Posted June 17, 2005 Posted June 17, 2005 This really sucks especially since I am a control freak.
scarlyjones Posted June 18, 2005 Posted June 18, 2005 Originally posted by westernxer He's not ready to settle down; he's warming up for the wild side. I agree,......this is the calm before the porn,......I mean storm.
scarlyjones Posted June 18, 2005 Posted June 18, 2005 Originally posted by Savannah After I moved out of my boyfriends' house, he began to buy posters of naked women and put them up on his walls, he also went to the strip club for his brother's birthday and got a free porn with his lap dance. He kept it and watches it now. It's just not like him. There is only one picture of me at his house, but four pictures of naked girls. Why? Uh,....who puts up posters of naked women on the HOUSES walls????? Hes 21, right?? Are you saying theres naked women posters up on the walls in the family room? Pleaz tell me this isnt the case Talk about TAAAACKY....................................
crazy_grl Posted June 18, 2005 Posted June 18, 2005 Why don't you compromise between OC's and katiebour's advice. Tell him that you know you've both been acting a bit crazy, saying things you may not mean, and making mistakes. And that you both need some time to sort things out alone. After x amount of time (maybe a month), you'll meet to talk about how you both feel and whether you want to continue the relationship. Tell him you'll call him at that time, and that neither of you will contact the other until then. If he's willing, you'll also have to decide whether you want to allow each other to see other people. You'll probably want to set a rule that you're not allowed to sleep with other people during that time and any others you both think are fair. Basically, you'll be going on a break, but one that won't leave you wondering every night why he's not calling you ready to end the break and get back together.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 18, 2005 Posted June 18, 2005 Originally posted by crazy_grl Exactly. As well-intentioned as OC is, he's just giving her additional ways to cling on to this guy using games. Even though I don't think that's the way he's intending the advice, that's the way she's taking it because her self-worth is completely revolving around this guy. OC is talking about getting her self confidence back, but it seems like all she's hearing is "If you pretend to be like this, you can get him back." She needs to get rid of the guy who's dragging her self-esteem back instead of clinging on to him or to the hope of getting him back. Until she lets go of that, she won't get her self-esteem back. That's why confronting him and getting him to finally push her completely away may be bad for the "relationship", and but it's certainly not what's best for Savanah. If he finally gets fed up enough with her honesty and requests for respect, he'll stop sending her these mixed messages and she can move on. Maybe then the guy will come back to his senses (or maybe he won't). And having moved on, gotten her head clear, and regained her self-esteem, Savanah will be better able to evaluate rationally whether she really still wants a relationship with a guy who would treat her this way. Savanah, you should think about why you want to be with this guy the way he is now. Consider the fact that he's not going to change back into the man he was before all this started happening. Do you really want to be with that guy? Or are you just holding on to the hope that he will turn back into who he was? Don't think about or treat him like he's that guy. Treat him like the porn-loving, disrespectful guy he's acting like right now. Also, is a big part of the reason you want him back so badly because he doesn't want you? I don't think I am trying to prolong her pain, I am - as best I can - trying to show her what the relationship is for what it is. SHE needs to decide what she wants to do. She's obviously very much in love with him. I don't recommend playing games but in this case, she's clinging on to the guy. If she REALLY wants to know how he feels about her, I've told her to MOVE ON with her life and give him the space he wants. That will do the same thing you're advising. Either make him come correct (if he's just testing her resolve) or end the relationship. Isn't that her goal?
mymojo Posted June 18, 2005 Posted June 18, 2005 Originally posted by Savannah this really hurts. do I just end it and see if he comes back? or should I just wait for him to break up with me? I have gone over there unexpectedly and he was just watching tv. Nothing out of the ordinary. I really don't think it's about someone else. Dear heart, Relationships generally progress in a forward motion and usually when one partner asks the other to move out it's all over but the crying. He says/does these things when you come over because he is too young and inexperienced to tell you flat out that he wants to see other women and that your relationship is gfoing nowhere.He's treating you like dirt in the hope that you'll get a clue/ grow a spine and dump him. Just end it,stop calling,stop dropping over there, stay alone,lick your wounds and do your crying.It'll hurt but a lot less than going along for a few more months like this.
crazy_grl Posted June 19, 2005 Posted June 19, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC I don't think I am trying to prolong her pain, I am - as best I can - trying to show her what the relationship is for what it is. SHE needs to decide what she wants to do. She's obviously very much in love with him. I don't recommend playing games but in this case, she's clinging on to the guy. If she REALLY wants to know how he feels about her, I've told her to MOVE ON with her life and give him the space he wants. That will do the same thing you're advising. Either make him come correct (if he's just testing her resolve) or end the relationship. Isn't that her goal? From what you've said in other threads, I know that what you're saying isn't about playing games, but about doing what's best for herself. But from her responses and her actions, it doesn't seem like she's taking them that way. Instead, she's seeing them as additional ways to cling to him. We're both saying that the way to fix this is to focus on the rest of her life and to get back her self confidence. But I don't think that she can accomplish that while she's still focused on getting him back, and while she's still letting him toy with her feelings. This guy is playing a game of 'hot/cold' and either doesn't know what he wants or is too much of a coward to tell her. The continued uncertainty and yo-yoing is going to be a lot more painful and drawn-out than a flat-out break-up. So if she treats it as though they're broken up, she'll have a lot better chance of focusing on herself and getting over him than if she holds out hope that he's coming back. Eventually, he might see how wrong he was and ask for another chance. Until he does that on his own, she should just forget about him. But if he doesn't see his mistakes, she'll have been better off having gotten away from him.
Athena21 Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 I wish he could just give me a definite yes or no to our relationship. He told me yesterday that he loves me and he will for a long time, but then he told me to move on and don't wait for him. I then told him that when he gets his life on track, he can't come back to me five years down the road. And then he said maybe that's his plan. (He just decided to buy a house and he has to get a second job to be able to afford it.) I know exactly what I have to do, but it is so hard to do it because I am so afraid of losing him.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 20, 2005 Posted June 20, 2005 Originally posted by Athena21 I wish he could just give me a definite yes or no to our relationship. He told me yesterday that he loves me and he will for a long time, but then he told me to move on and don't wait for him. I then told him that when he gets his life on track, he can't come back to me five years down the road. And then he said maybe that's his plan. (He just decided to buy a house and he has to get a second job to be able to afford it.) I know exactly what I have to do, but it is so hard to do it because I am so afraid of losing him. Sorry to hear that, but all the signs were there. When someone starts disrepecting you and your wishes, it's a sure sign they've moved on mentally, if not yet physically. You shouldn't be afraid of losing him. You should concentrate on gaining yourself back. And by that I mean your self-confidence and self-respect. You don't need him. You want him, yes, but you definitely don't need him. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and let him go. No one that ever left you is part of your destiny.
Recommended Posts