The bread crumbs are getting stale

[Liam1]

Even though, I maintain that I never future faked with words, I very much regret that we didn't have regular "what do we both want out of this" type conversations (did/do any of you guys have these regular discussions in your As?). We never really did after the first few days - we were just too busy having fun and enjoying ourselves. You see, as I said in my previous posts, even though I never said in words that I would leave my family, my actions and liberal use of "I love you" led her to believe that that initial rule was now null and void.

 

 

Jenkins:

 

I did have a regular conversation about with the OW about the affair just being about sex and fun and a distraction. It did not seem to change anything when I broke it off.

 

Forceawakensme:

 

I don't know what was said at the beginning of your affair, but based on what you have written about the quickie and such, it seems fairly clear that for your OM, the affair was just an affair.

 

You on the other hand appear to be talking as if it were a real courting or dating relationship.

 

This is the problem I see on this forum again and again.

 

The man just wants an affair and the woman in the affair wants a romance with a fairy tale ending in which the OM declares undying love and leaves his wife.

 

Ladies, this rarely happens.

 

Seriously, if a man is truly NOT in love with his wife, he would seek a divorce. Divorces are very common these days and fairly easy to get.

[jenkins95]

Jenkies is getting bombarded with OW questions. Lol.

 

Jenkies, I specifically have one for you too, if you don't mind: what makes a man think that he can just "click his fingers" (as you phrased it above) and have a woman at his beck and call for sex or anything for that matter? Does he do that because that is how he wishes it to be (this is my guess)?

Or, does he do that because he is used to getting everything he wants from women all the time, no matter how he acts (which would mostly be his wife)?

 

Hi Pops! How are you? Lovely to get a question from you! By the way, please don't tell me that you don't look exactly like your avatar!! To me that IS you and I won't hear otherwise!

 

Anyway...Well, when I said that earlier in the thread, I really just meant that Force's MM appears to have got complacent and cocky and believed that he "had" her under his spell and could control and manipulate her. He recognised that she was in love with him and after a six week spell of NC, he told her he he missed her, blah, blah, blah and sure enough they ended up back in bed with each other.

 

So MM is now feeling on top of the world - even after all that NC, he still has that power over her. What a great, sexy, powerful, virile, alpha male he is! So now he feels he can basically treat her how he likes - turn on the hot, cold, etc as it suits him, and she will just come running when he says so. I'm so proud of Force that she well and truly put him in his place and left him with only....ok.....his VHS porn tapes (by now I can't get the image out of my head, so let's go with it!) to entertain him!

 

As well as wrecking his horny plans, this is a serious dent to his ego and he's sulking - demonstrated by the fact that he didn't even read her second email. A fantastic show of restraint, common sense and strength by Force, and now it is she who is well and truly in the driving seat, while he is sitting there with his finger on the rewind button re-watching his favourite bits of the movie feeling rather crestfallen and annoyed that he spent so much money on that sexy outfit that Force will not be wearing after all (at least not with him!)

 

Just my view on it!

 

Pops, I got carried away. To simply answer "what makes a man think that he can just click his fingers and have a woman at his beck and call", to me this is a show of male arrogance that he has her under his spell and can do whatever he wants with her by simply pulling her strings, maybe trying out the odd "I love you" if needs be.

Edited March 14, 2016 by jenkins95

[Popsicle]

Jenkins, thank you. I won't say anything about my avatar! :-X

 

The reason I asked is because mine acted cocky from day 1. Like I for sure belonged to him or something as soon as we said hello. I didn't understand why he was so presumptuous.

 

Thanks again for you insight, jenkies!

Edited March 14, 2016 by Popsicle

[jenkins95]

Jenkins, thank you. I won't say anything about my avatar! :-X

 

The reason I asked is because mine acted cocky from day 1. Like I for sure belonged to him or something as soon as we said hello. I didn't understand why he was so presumptuous.

 

Thanks again for you insight, jenkies!

 

Always a pleasure Pops!

[Forceawakensme]

Hi Pops! How are you? Lovely to get a question from you! By the way, please don't tell me that you don't look exactly like your avatar!! To me that IS you and I won't hear otherwise!

 

Anyway...Well, when I said that earlier in the thread, I really just meant that Force's MM appears to have got complacent and cocky and believed that he "had" her under his spell and could control and manipulate her. He recognised that she was in love with him and after a six week spell of NC, he told her he he missed her, blah, blah, blah and sure enough they ended up back in bed with each other.

 

So MM is now feeling on top of the world - even after all that NC, he still has that power over her. What a great, sexy, powerful, virile, alpha male he is! So now he feels he can basically treat her how he likes - turn on the hot, cold, etc as it suits him, and she will just come running when he says so. I'm so proud of Force that she well and truly put him in his place and left him with only....ok.....his VHS porn tapes (by now I can't get the image out of my head, so let's go with it!) to entertain him!

 

As well as wrecking his horny plans, this is a serious dent to his ego and he's sulking - demonstrated by the fact that he didn't even read her second email. A fantastic show of restraint, common sense and strength by Force, and now it is she who is well and truly in the driving seat, while he is sitting there with his finger on the rewind button re-watching his favourite bits of the movie feeling rather crestfallen and annoyed that he spent so much money on that sexy outfit that Force will not be wearing after all (at least not with him!)

Just my view on it!

 

Pops, I got carried away. To simply answer "what makes a man think that he can just click his fingers and have a woman at his beck and call", to me this is a show of male arrogance that he has her under his spell and can do whatever he wants with her by simply pulling her strings, maybe trying out the odd "I love you" if needs be.

 

 

Gosh i hope you're right -- Its interesting that i saw it as a dent to MY ego that he wouldn't be affectionate... --- I hope my rejecting future sexual (especially this week with the expensive outfit has dented his ego.. that gives me some pleasure amid awful business. As im feeling quite embarrassed for making myself vulnerable and asking him those questions that were met with his obvious discomfort and frankly jerky answers (im sure he doesn't think they were jerky though.. just 'making himself clear') I should also add that the 'quickie' was very much due to hm ... not because of any time restraints He apologized profusely afterwards.. and was visibly embarrassed. Another nice thought for me to go to bed to.. hehe.. feeling wicked right now.

 

Also -- haha you thinking that is Popsicle.. How cool would it be if Popsicle turned out to be Milla Jovovich (thats who it is, right pops?.. Or should i say Milla? x

 

Also - HUGE thank you to Jenkins and also anybody who has contributed to this thread.. its literally saved me tonight from any stupid moments of weakness.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Forceawakensme

[Forceawakensme]

oh and haha VHS tapes.. PMSL ..That is some vintage perving! im sure those antiques could go for a lot .. (nothing hotter than those 80s pornstars.. bleach blonde hair and water-melon boobs haha)

[Popsicle]

oh and haha VHS tapes.. PMSL ..That is some vintage perving! im sure those antiques could go for a lot .. (nothing hotter than those 80s pornstars.. bleach blonde hair and water-melon boobs haha)

 

I spent a couple of hours last night watching "Fantasy Island" and noticed how naturally beautiful all the women were in there.

[burnt]

I told her I loved her because I truly did love her and was so happy in that moment and just wanted to express my joy, enjoy it and enjoy her reaction. BUT, this was said very much in the context of the "affair bubble" and to me carried no implication that it changed the fact that I didn't want to leave my marriage. But I think for her, repeated use of I love you led her to believe that the original rules had changed.

 

Thank you Jenkins, for this and the other detailed post in the use of the 'L' word.

 

I can see what you mean and I guess my xMM fit right into that also. But how truly sad. How painfully sad to read your post and to realize how little all those millions of words that he said meant so little after all.

 

I have now crossed the three year mark from the start of the affair. I have still thousands upon thousands of emails and chats stored away online.

I still log in. Everyday. I still read the the things I wrote to him and the things he wrote to me. I could never bring myself to delete a single of those emails/chats.

 

I know--it was nothing more than a meaningless dirty affair; but I always thought of the words as 'sacred'. Sacred expressions of all the indescribable things I felt. Sacred emotions and sacred thoughts. I know the affair was ugly, but what I felt wasn't.

 

He deleted all the emails regularly. I always had a hard time understanding how he could. Well, now I guess I understand it.

 

So--that's it then? Millions of things said--the hundreds of I love you's and I want you's, I need you's, all the 'baby's and all the terms of endearments all just weightless confetti to fill the air right at that moment, but carried no implications before or after.

 

It's just sad. Such a cruel waste.

 

And after knowing this, and after realizing this,

how does anyone place any modicum of trust in another utterance of "I love you"? How do you ever care to hear those words from another person?

 

Oh, What a waste. Such a meaningless waste.

[Forceawakensme]

Thank you Jenkins, for this and the other detailed post in the use of the 'L' word.

 

I can see what you mean and I guess my xMM fit right into that also. But how truly sad. How painfully sad to read your post and to realize how little all those millions of words that he said meant so little after all.

 

I have now crossed the three year mark from the start of the affair. I have still thousands upon thousands of emails and chats stored away online.

I still log in. Everyday. I still read the the things I wrote to him and the things he wrote to me. I could never bring myself to delete a single of those emails/chats.

 

I know--it was nothing more than a meaningless dirty affair; but I always thought of the words as 'sacred'. Sacred expressions of all the indescribable things I felt. Sacred emotions and sacred thoughts. I know the affair was ugly, but what I felt wasn't.

 

He deleted all the emails regularly. I always had a hard time understanding how he could. Well, now I guess I understand it.

 

So--that's it then? Millions of things said--the hundreds of I love you's and I want you's, I need you's, all the 'baby's and all the terms of endearments all just weightless confetti to fill the air right at that moment, but carried no implications before or after.

 

It's just sad. Such a cruel waste.

 

And after knowing this, and after realizing this,

how does anyone place any modicum of trust in another utterance of "I love you"? How do you ever care to hear those words from another person?

 

Oh, What a waste. Such a meaningless waste.

 

Burnt so sorry for your pain:(

 

I think the words 'i love you' are only of value when they're matched with actions. By definition, being in an affair and enabling the other person who is as weak as we are is not loving. I know i cannot truly love my MM or i would never want him to jeopardise his family and self-respect and self-esteem. I have put myself first continually by allowing this to continue. Even though i have put myself out for him, inconvenienced myself to please him.. there was an ultimate pay off for me -- the affair. I have to know i do not truly love him or i would not have continued to enable him. I love the fun and excitement hes provided to my life; i dont think i can possibly truly love him.

 

My point is.. maybe its time to let go of some of those emails and realize that without actions to back them up, they really were useless confetti. See it for what it is and go out and seek something real and meaningful with someone who would never allow you to be in an affair or their OW.

 

I think in my case, my MM's less-than-loving actions as illustrated in my first post are a huge blessing in disguise and will propel me to finally put all this mess behind me.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Forceawakensme

[Popsicle]

Thank you Jenkins, for this and the other detailed post in the use of the 'L' word.

 

I can see what you mean and I guess my xMM fit right into that also. But how truly sad. How painfully sad to read your post and to realize how little all those millions of words that he said meant so little after all.

 

I have now crossed the three year mark from the start of the affair. I have still thousands upon thousands of emails and chats stored away online.

I still log in. Everyday. I still read the the things I wrote to him and the things he wrote to me. I could never bring myself to delete a single of those emails/chats.

 

I know--it was nothing more than a meaningless dirty affair; but I always thought of the words as 'sacred'. Sacred expressions of all the indescribable things I felt. Sacred emotions and sacred thoughts. I know the affair was ugly, but what I felt wasn't.

 

He deleted all the emails regularly. I always had a hard time understanding how he could. Well, now I guess I understand it.

 

So--that's it then? Millions of things said--the hundreds of I love you's and I want you's, I need you's, all the 'baby's and all the terms of endearments all just weightless confetti to fill the air right at that moment, but carried no implications before or after.

 

It's just sad. Such a cruel waste.

 

And after knowing this, and after realizing this,

how does anyone place any modicum of trust in another utterance of "I love you"? How do you ever care to hear those words from another person?

 

Oh, What a waste. Such a meaningless waste.

 

I got the exact opposite meaning from Jenkins post as you did.

[jenkins95]

Burnt, I too really feel your pain. Yours is a very moving sorry indeed and we all want to see you get better. Please keep posting - your posts and the threads you start are great.

 

But I think you have interpreted my words in a way that I didn't intend.

 

The point I want to make is that all those "I love yous" and other "sweet nothings" really DO/DID mean something. For me, the actual feeling in my heart when I said those things was genuine and was very strong and I seriously doubt that the feeling in my OW's heart could have been any more than what I was feeling. In fact, I'm confident that we felt the same at that level. The difference purely comes down to what we "do" with those words. In general, men seem to be able to simply use "I love you" in and for itself and for the sheer joy of sharing our happiness with the woman who is causing it, whereas women seem to have difficulty separating it's use from implications of a future together. When MM reiterates that he can't leave his family even after using those words, it is heart-breaking and very confusing to the OW, and she starts to question the validity and authenticity of everything the MM has done and said in the A. She can't reconcile the I love yous with his reluctance to leave his wife.

 

Some men, like me, are naïve and don't realise the harm they could be doing in the over-use of this type of statement. Other men do realise this and hold back using them, but therefore can appear cold and uncaring.

 

But please know burnt, those statements are not just empty lies. When your MM said that to you, he very likely meant it every time - those emails that you cherish do not mean nothing and it's very likely that be still thinks of you a lot and always will. My intention in these posts was not to devalue the meaning and genuine love implicit in the utterance of such sentiments by MM, but simply to postulate a difference in the wiring of men and women. And in any case, this is just my thought - perhaps other men disagree with me?

 

However you interpret my words, maybe it would indeed be good to let go of some those emails anyway. If seeing them as useless confetti makes it more bearable to think about letting him go, then so be it. But burnt, please don't think it was all meaningless lies. I STILL owe you answers on another thread, by the way - haven't forgotten

 

Pops, does this further post align with your interpretation of my previous post?

Edited March 14, 2016 by jenkins95

[Josmatjes]

Thank you Jenkins, for this and the other detailed post in the use of the 'L' word.

 

I can see what you mean and I guess my xMM fit right into that also. But how truly sad. How painfully sad to read your post and to realize how little all those millions of words that he said meant so little after all.

 

I have now crossed the three year mark from the start of the affair. I have still thousands upon thousands of emails and chats stored away online.

I still log in. Everyday. I still read the the things I wrote to him and the things he wrote to me. I could never bring myself to delete a single of those emails/chats.

 

I know--it was nothing more than a meaningless dirty affair; but I always thought of the words as 'sacred'. Sacred expressions of all the indescribable things I felt. Sacred emotions and sacred thoughts. I know the affair was ugly, but what I felt wasn't.

 

He deleted all the emails regularly. I always had a hard time understanding how he could. Well, now I guess I understand it.

 

So--that's it then? Millions of things said--the hundreds of I love you's and I want you's, I need you's, all the 'baby's and all the terms of endearments all just weightless confetti to fill the air right at that moment, but carried no implications before or after.

 

It's just sad. Such a cruel waste.

 

And after knowing this, and after realizing this,

how does anyone place any modicum of trust in another utterance of "I love you"? How do you ever care to hear those words from another person?

 

Oh, What a waste. Such a meaningless waste.

 

What I did was I copied down some texts that he sent me in a journal I have. If I ever feel I have to read them or I'm feeling nostalgic I'll go read them. That way I was able to delete everything from my phone because it was too painful to see.

I know you don't want to hear this but you need to delete them. Choose a few that mean something to you and either print them out or copy them and put them away. The rest get rid of. You can't make new memories if you are holding on to the old ones.....

[Forceawakensme]

Great replies guys. Sorry i was a bit negative in my post to Burnt (saying he didn't mean anything with his words etc) -- Jenkins did illustrate an MM's perspective (albeit 'one of the "good" ones') very well ---

 

--- Im just in 'need to kinda hate MM' mode right now so as not to be weak and susceptible to catching another case of the 'awws' if/when he writes me back tomorrow.

[jenkins95]

Great replies guys. Sorry i was a bit negative in my post to Burnt (saying he didn't mean anything with his words etc) -- Jenkins did illustrate an MM's perspective (albeit 'one of the "good" ones') very well ---

 

--- Im just in 'need to kinda hate MM' mode right now so as not to be weak and susceptible to catching another case of the 'awws' if/when he writes me back tomorrow.

 

Hey force! Stay strong! I am so impressed with how you've handled this - keep going. It is the right decision.

 

Speaking specifically about YOUR MM, well I'm not sure about how things were before the six weeks NC ( presumably the story is in other threads? - I will try to look it up!), but from what you've said about SINCE then, I'm convinced that he sees you as a sex object and wants to use you for thrills, probably to be discarded again later when he next needs to "work on his marriage", and that he would not be adverse to slipping in a few sweet nothings and I love yous just to get what he wants. That's what everything you have said in this thread screams out to me. Who knows, perhaps he has been really brooding during NC and something has changed in him. If there was a part of him that felt genuine love before, perhaps he's shut that part out and now just wants to use you for as long as he can get away with it.

 

When you said earlier that he came by before to " drop some stuff off", that made me smile, because I'm certain that he planned and foresaw the chance for a quickee well in advance and that the need to do that stuff off was just a smoke screen - after all, why not just bring the dressing up stuff on the night itself. This to me illustrates that he wants to use you for sex at every available opportunity and will engineer opportunities wherever he can - it's amazing how resourceful us MM can be sometimes!

 

Having said all that, it seems like the quickee was fun for you too and didn't cause too much damage - perhaps you even foresaw it too? Indeed, it helped you see things clearly and cancel the planned evening. He has shown himself to be crestfallen and "hurt" (in a damaged pride kind of way) since then. That business with the ignored email is a petty little attempt at revenge in my opinion - to show you that he's not interested in your emails any more. But he is! He will have checked it many times since then probably. His pride has been damaged and he's sulking IMO! It's you who had the power now force - you've turned it round on him! You are my LS star of the day!!

Edited March 14, 2016 by jenkins95

[ladydesigner]

Thank you Jenkins, for this and the other detailed post in the use of the 'L' word.

 

I can see what you mean and I guess my xMM fit right into that also. But how truly sad. How painfully sad to read your post and to realize how little all those millions of words that he said meant so little after all.

 

I have now crossed the three year mark from the start of the affair. I have still thousands upon thousands of emails and chats stored away online.

I still log in. Everyday. I still read the the things I wrote to him and the things he wrote to me. I could never bring myself to delete a single of those emails/chats.

 

I know--it was nothing more than a meaningless dirty affair; but I always thought of the words as 'sacred'. Sacred expressions of all the indescribable things I felt. Sacred emotions and sacred thoughts. I know the affair was ugly, but what I felt wasn't.

 

He deleted all the emails regularly. I always had a hard time understanding how he could. Well, now I guess I understand it.

 

So--that's it then? Millions of things said--the hundreds of I love you's and I want you's, I need you's, all the 'baby's and all the terms of endearments all just weightless confetti to fill the air right at that moment, but carried no implications before or after.

 

It's just sad. Such a cruel waste.

 

And after knowing this, and after realizing this,

how does anyone place any modicum of trust in another utterance of "I love you"? How do you ever care to hear those words from another person?

 

Oh, What a waste. Such a meaningless waste.

 

Right I am a current BS and those words have lost meaning to me as well. So I understand this feeling. Now those words only reinforce my love for my kids. They are the only one's who will get everlasting love from me.

 

When I was fMOW I uttered the words "I love you" to the xOM because my feelings were strong. I could not have known if I could truly 'love' him in that sense as I did not live in the real world with xOM it was a fantasy time and not real life. Meaning we did not live together, share much time together, yadda yadda.

 

I am now 6 years out of my own A and I can say it hold no power or a place of value to me. I never think of the xOM at all. I don't feel any emotion towards him, what I do feel is regret.

[Popsicle]

Burnt, I too really feel your pain. Yours is a very moving sorry indeed and we all want to see you get better. Please keep posting - your posts and the threads you start are great.

 

But I think you have interpreted my words in a way that I didn't intend.

 

The point I want to make is that all those "I love yous" and other "sweet nothings" really DO/DID mean something. For me, the actual feeling in my heart when I said those things was genuine and was very strong and I seriously doubt that the feeling in my OW's heart could have been any more than what I was feeling. In fact, I'm confident that we felt the same at that level. The difference purely comes down to what we "do" with those words. In general, men seem to be able to simply use "I love you" in and for itself and for the sheer joy of sharing our happiness with the woman who is causing it, whereas women seem to have difficulty separating it's use from implications of a future together. When MM reiterates that he can't leave his family even after using those words, it is heart-breaking and very confusing to the OW, and she starts to question the validity and authenticity of everything the MM has done and said in the A. She can't reconcile the I love yous with his reluctance to leave his wife.

 

Some men, like me, are naïve and don't realise the harm they could be doing in the over-use of this type of statement. Other men do realise this and hold back using them, but therefore can appear cold and uncaring.

 

But please know burnt, those statements are not just empty lies. When your MM said that to you, he very likely meant it every time - those emails that you cherish do not mean nothing and it's very likely that be still thinks of you a lot and always will. My intention in these posts was not to devalue the meaning and genuine love implicit in the utterance of such sentiments by MM, but simply to postulate a difference in the wiring of men and women. And in any case, this is just my thought - perhaps other men disagree with me?

 

However you interpret my words, maybe it would indeed be good to let go of some those emails anyway. If seeing them as useless confetti makes it more bearable to think about letting him go, then so be it. But burnt, please don't think it was all meaningless lies. I STILL owe you answers on another thread, by the way - haven't forgotten

 

Pops, does this further post align with your interpretation of my previous post?

 

Yes.

 

Popsicle

[burnt]

I got the exact opposite meaning from Jenkins post as you did.

 

But I think you have interpreted my words in a way that I didn't intend.

 

Popsicle and Jenkins,

Perhaps you are right--that I misinterpreted what you wrote.

 

It's been too long. As I said it's been over three years since the start of the affair, and it's been over a year and a half since our last communication.

 

But there's something you (Jenkins) wrote, that's starting to trigger something in me right now.

Not sure what. Just not pleasant. Feeling like a land-slide in my mind. It's something I have to sort out--I know.

 

Thank you Jenkins for your kind posts.

 

Thanks everyone for your kind and encouraging words.

 

Re: the thousands of emails/chats:

I know you all are right that I should delete them.

But I also know myself well enough to know that if I do, the regret will cause more pain than leaving the emails still there. (I did delete them once, then two days later retrieved all of them in a painful panic).

 

In a way I'm keeping them, not to torture me, but a reminder of what I was like--more to remind myself WHO i was before. I feel like something I don't recognize now.

 

I had a kind of corny sense of humor and a sense of innocence, which I lost in this ugly mess. Reading those old emails reminds of of the ME.

Most people keep photos of themselves--I keep words.

But, yes, I do realize it sounds counter productive.

[Josmatjes]

Popsicle and Jenkins,

Perhaps you are right--that I misinterpreted what you wrote.

 

It's been too long. As I said it's been over three years since the start of the affair, and it's been over a year and a half since our last communication.

 

But there's something you (Jenkins) wrote, that's starting to trigger something in me right now.

Not sure what. Just not pleasant. Feeling like a land-slide in my mind. It's something I have to sort out--I know.

 

Thank you Jenkins for your kind posts.

 

Thanks everyone for your kind and encouraging words.

 

Re: the thousands of emails/chats:

I know you all are right that I should delete them.

But I also know myself well enough to know that if I do, the regret will cause more pain than leaving the emails still there. (I did delete them once, then two days later retrieved all of them in a painful panic).

 

In a way I'm keeping them, not to torture me, but a reminder of what I was like--more to remind myself WHO i was before. I feel like something I don't recognize now.

 

I had a kind of corny sense of humor and a sense of innocence, which I lost in this ugly mess. Reading those old emails reminds of of the ME.

Most people keep photos of themselves--I keep words.

But, yes, I do realize it sounds counter productive.

 

No I totally get that! I also was a different person 3 1/2 years ago, innocent and fun loving...now I'm different. I never know who is truthful. Its sad really...

[Lovetoohard]

 

Re: the thousands of emails/chats:

I know you all are right that I should delete them.

But I also know myself well enough to know that if I do, the regret will cause more pain than leaving the emails still there. (I did delete them once, then two days later retrieved all of them in a painful panic).

 

In a way I'm keeping them, not to torture me, but a reminder of what I was like--more to remind myself WHO i was before. I feel like something I don't recognize now.

 

I had a kind of corny sense of humor and a sense of innocence, which I lost in this ugly mess. Reading those old emails reminds of of the ME.

Most people keep photos of themselves--I keep words.

But, yes, I do realize it sounds counter productive.

 

There is nothing wrong with keeping emails, chats, pics, texts or mementos. As long as it's not setting back your recovery, hang on to them for as long as you like. I still have all that. Most of it is tucked away out of sight, but I occasionally look because it reminds me that I was capable of loving, cherishing, being witty, cheesy, goofy, caring, etc. with someone. Of course, all that is tainted by the ugliness of the inevitable mess that goes with getting out of an A, but it was me - completely vulnerable, generous and trusting in that moment of time, and I don't want to lose sight of that. Someone, somewhere, someday, who is the right person deserves that from me.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Lovetoohard

[Poppy47]

There is nothing wrong with keeping emails, chats, pics, texts or mementos. As long as it's not setting back your recovery, hang on to them for as long as you like. I still have all that. Most of it is tucked away out of sight, but I occasionally look because it reminds me that I was capable of loving, cherishing, being witty, cheesy, goofy, caring, etc. with someone. Of course, all that is tainted by the ugliness of the inevitable mess that goes with getting out of an A, but it was me - completely vulnerable, generous and trusting in that moment of time, and I don't want to lose sight of that. Someone, somewhere, someday, who is the right person deserves that from me.

 

Keep whatever you like for as long as you like. The day you look at the emails and think they no longer matter is the time to get rid of them.

 

Poppy.

[Cymbeline]

Perhaps it is more helpful to acknowledge that the feelings on both sides were very real, but that feelings are transient. Nothing in life is permanent and things are in a constant state of change. It is taking you feelings longer to alter, but the examples here show that change they will.

[Forceawakensme]

I agree with Cymberline... -- But would add that feelings and emotions and what defines them is subjective. What is love to one person may be entirely different to another depending on their life experience. I have been shown deep love in my life on a number of occasions so i know what it looks like -- i cannot say either way for sure for anybodyelse, including MM. For all i know, he may think someone willing to sleep with him means they love him. Who knows?

 

Also -- Burnt. I hear you on panicking about the email deletion. I have been there and done that. I cleaned my email box out and deleted my account when i went NC and honestly it freaked me out. Perhaps that was intense withdrawals but i longed to have 'something' back. I needed a place to go and re-read or feel the pain again. See his name again. Perhaps this would have been a form of breaking NC but i felt on some level its what lead to my desperate need to see him again and 'have that email back'. If i'd been able to read the emails again and be reminded of the nonsense that he spouted so often (lol) perhaps i would have grieved better - Again, who knows?

 

UPDATE on me:

He still hasn't responded to my email yesterday and we are due to meet tomorrow evening. Granted, he is on a business trip (this is why he dropped stuff over to me at the house beforehand, couldn't fly with it or perhaps was worried his wife would see it in the packing) -- ANyway, he has not responded and of course that hurts my feelings. What it says to me is "If i have to actually express sweetness or affection to you then this doesn't really do it for me" .. -- Trying to ensure this notion doesn't erode my self-esteem. Very hard not to as this particular action cements the notion that i was nothing more than a sex toy to be used, despite our history.

 

BTW (for those who have asked --- He ended up 2 year A early Jan as he said his feelings were getting too strong and he wanted to leave his wife for me but couldn't -- i never told him to -- never said that was even an option or even eluded to it because its not, frankly -- what i wanted was a 'love affair' -- affection and sweetness and excitement (just being truthful here) NOT FWB -- which i hammered home in no uncertain terms time and time again to him. I made several attempts to break NC and he was very resistant and kept it. This was hard because i had the feeling in my mind all that time that he was in love with me and just couldnt' speak to me because his feelings were too strong and this tormented him. -- Anyway he broke NC after six weeks at that event saying 'im going crazy and miserable and think about you constantly and CANNOT be out of contact with you -- i just cant" --- Spent that evening telling me i was the only woman he has ever truly loved, wasn't 'in love with his wife like me.. even though she is a 'nice enough lady' (he said that!), -- said i was his fantasy woman and asked what a future with me would look like and how it could happen. I played along with his fantasy but i never, ever encouraged it, though admittedly didn't discourage it at that point as it was all sexy talk. Also very drunk. The very next day (sober) he started another email account up and has been writing me every day since... almost all sexual though (not entirely though, some alluding to his previous fantasy).

 

So -- Here i am, today after our brief (on all accounts) meeting yesterday and feeling very rejected when he was cold and clearly uncomfortable when i asked him why he wasn't being affectionate / responsive the way he had previously. Also, not responding to my email saying this isn't going to work as i need that..

 

Again.. still no response today. He has been on a long flight but i dont buy that, i fly for business all the time and when you want to send a quick email you do.. He spends hours in the lounges at airports etc.

[Adoraxx]

Hi Jenkins,

I haven't finished reading the whole thread yet but I figured I would start with your post. I read the link to your other post and I had wanted to comment on that earlier (because I already read it shortly after you wrote it) but I guess I didn't feel like typing back then

 

In my case, I NEVER expected the MM to leave his marriage. I knew he wouldn't do that and I would never even want him to leave his marriage for me!! Too much of a burden because I think if someone leaves his/ her marriage, he/ she should do it for himself/ herself and not for someone else. I would feel too much pressure to make MM happy because 'he left his marriage for me'!! So that was out of the question (although in the beginning he lied that he would leave but that's another topic).

 

So no matter how often he said 'I love you', I never thought that that meant that he was going to leave his marriage. Never. I just wanted him to care about me as a person and not just as his own personal sex toy!!

 

 

 

I think that few MM use it purely as a tool to get what they want without meaning it. That would be truly despicable even by affair standards to simply robotically manipulate the OW with words purely to get what they wanted without meaning it. Perhaps it happens, but it must surely be rare. I think an MM who did that would have to be a. Very intelligent (in a sinister way), b. A psychopathic narcissist and c. A very good actor. I honestly think eventually it would be easy to see through if you really got to know him.

 

So... I don't think it's rare for MM to lie about their so called 'love' for the OW. I've read so much over the past years and I've read quite often about how women feel that it must have been a lie, especially when you start to compare the words with their actions!!!

 

I don't think my MM is a) very intelligent.

But yes, b) a psychopathic narcissist (done much reading about that too)

And c) a very good actor, which is what psychopaths often are!!

 

I do believe that the MM used his words to manipulate me into doing what HE wanted!! You should know that over the years (he is my neighbor) I kept telling him 'no I can't have sex with you anymore' because I knew how it would end. Yet he kept pressuring me, I can't even explain how he did that and how often!! But one of his tools was his ANGER and using silent treatment and all that stuff.

 

Also, after a while I felt like his 'I love you's' were really off somehow. Again, hard to explain! One thing I've learned is to look at the actions most of all and if those actions don't show LOVE , than surely the 'I love you' words are empty!!

 

Giving someone the silent treatment when she doesn't do what you want, is not love.

 

Not allowing someone to ask questions, is not love.

Not contacting someone after sex, is not love.

Yelling when things don't go your way, is not love.

Mast*rbat*ng on someone's kitchen counter top when she says NO, is not love!!!

 

And I have a zillion more examples like that.

So yes, in my case I don't believe the MM loved me. Yet those words are still very powerful and cause lots of cogn dissonance. Just like when he said: "we'll stay in touch" and "I'll come see you" etc etc and he never showed up again... it sure makes a person VERY confused to say the least.

 

I think the MM only loves himself because his actions sure never ever showed any love towards me. For example, he only ever called (several days in a row) to lovebomb me in hopes that he could seduce me to have sex with him again.

 

Going to read the rest of the thread now

[Adoraxx]

another question i have is .. I sent the 'this isn't going to work' email in two parts.. the first part he read (which gave him the gist) and i saw a receipt that he had clicked and read -- What is strange is, he never clicked on the second email to read it despite the fact they came in at the same time -- it was just a one line PS.. but he wouldn't know that because he didn't click on it to see.. I mean my curiosity would get to me if i was him what else i may have added.... but its like he was either so mad that he didn't want to keep reading OR he just really didn't give a crap .(ie 'blah blah female boring stuff.. if im not going to get laid then im not going to bother clicking)

 

I know its a small thing but its really bothered me i guess.. makes me think.. wow he didn't care that much...

 

That's what my xMM did too. He saw that there was an email from me and if he was in one of those moods (still not sure whether it was anger or boredom!) , he simply wouldn't read my email or he wouldn't bother to respond. Like you said, as if he was thinking: "If I"m not going to get laid, then I'm not going to bother clicking/ typing"

[Adoraxx]

Hi Pops! How are you? Lovely to get a question from you! By the way, please don't tell me that you don't look exactly like your avatar!! To me that IS you and I won't hear otherwise!

 

Anyway...Well, when I said that earlier in the thread, I really just meant that Force's MM appears to have got complacent and cocky and believed that he "had" her under his spell and could control and manipulate her. He recognised that she was in love with him and after a six week spell of NC, he told her he he missed her, blah, blah, blah and sure enough they ended up back in bed with each other.

 

So MM is now feeling on top of the world - even after all that NC, he still has that power over her. What a great, sexy, powerful, virile, alpha male he is! So now he feels he can basically treat her how he likes - turn on the hot, cold, etc as it suits him, and she will just come running when he says so. I'm so proud of Force that she well and truly put him in his place and left him with only....ok.....his VHS porn tapes (by now I can't get the image out of my head, so let's go with it!) to entertain him!

 

As well as wrecking his horny plans, this is a serious dent to his ego and he's sulking - demonstrated by the fact that he didn't even read her second email. A fantastic show of restraint, common sense and strength by Force, and now it is she who is well and truly in the driving seat, while he is sitting there with his finger on the rewind button re-watching his favourite bits of the movie feeling rather crestfallen and annoyed that he spent so much money on that sexy outfit that Force will not be wearing after all (at least not with him!)

 

Just my view on it!

 

Pops, I got carried away. To simply answer "what makes a man think that he can just click his fingers and have a woman at his beck and call", to me this is a show of male arrogance that he has her under his spell and can do whatever he wants with her by simply pulling her strings, maybe trying out the odd "I love you" if needs be.

 

Haha I love this!!!