Did you believe you'd wind up with MM because BW would leave?

[sandylee1]

Hmmm. By using that logic, wouldn't that mean that MM would not get into an affair in the first place if they truly loved their wives?

 

I'm not trying to be snarky or mean, it's a curiosity question. I hear that quoted phrase all over this forum and in other places in reference to OW all the time. As well as hearing that mm don't or never love their ap. That statement is so completely not true at all. My exh fell in love with his ow. I divorced him for many reasons but the biggest two were because he trickle truthed and he loved another woman. He thought he "loved" me too and wanted to stay with me.... but to me, responsibility and obligation do not equate love and all 3 of us deserved better than that.

 

In my definition of love.. no married person would cheat at all.....

 

In the case of some MM I really don't think they love the wife or the OW.... in which case from their POV why leave the marriage. I don't think you can really have that fully devoted love..Full of butterflies for more than one person at a time. Not the "I'm in love" kind of love.

 

When I say he'd leave.... I mean if he really loved the OW and not his wife he'd leave if he had the gumption and wasn't a selfish cake eater.

 

I've has a WH tell me he really loves his wife and she's a great wonderful person... yet he's has about 4 affairs..and probably more that he never mentioned to me. He says it's because she isn't interested in sex..... and he'd go 3 months or so without it....plus it wasn't great when they did it either according to him.

[Tread Carefully]

I can see both sides of it. I think both women in the unfortunate love triangle should observe that if he's not running out the door because of his amazing and unique love for the OW, then he doesn't really love her as much as he thinks he does.

 

First of all, let me say that I'm sorry that you (and I) have had to experience this.

 

I am happy for you that your husband made the choice to stop loving his ow and to focus all of his love and attention back on to you. I didn't give my xh that option. If I had stayed, would he have truly loved me again? Probably. He would have been thankful for that second chance, kind of like Jenkins. But I knew him and I knew myself. I knew he wouldn't do the work to fix his part of why our marriage broke down in the first place. I also knew that I could not live with a man who had given part of his heart to another.....even if eventually said heart would fully belong to me again. That kind of pain and betrayal is not something that I could overcome by seeing him everyday and knowing he saw her everyday at work. I'm just not strong enough for that.

 

I don't know how long your H's affair lasted or how deep it became. Mine (my xh) was well over 2 years. We were married almost 20 years when I filed for divorce.

 

Gently....you questioned whether it would have worked out for your H and the OW. No one can really know the answer to that because that's not the option he chose. You are where he is putting his energy. If circumstances were different the perhaps it would've worked out. I spent a lot of time in counseling and group therapy. I think it might suprise some people how many men really do miss their ow and constantly wonder, what if? And there are many, like Liam, who say thank God that is over and my wife let me stay! As for what I quoted above, there are also a lot of men who choose to stay out of obligation to their children, money, not wanting to hurt their spouse a second time by divorce and they also don't want to look like the bad guy.....to their kids, friends, family etc (That's not a good reason but it's how they feel.)

 

But the most talked about reason....is fear. Fear of the unknown. Their marriage life is comfortable because they know what to expect.

 

There are so many variables when it comes to humans and emotions. As much as affairs may look the same, the only people who honestly know what is going on....imo....is the wayward.

[heartwhole]

I am not writing to upset you here, but is not that ability to flip a switch so fast not a bit disconcerting for you?

Was it not the same switch he flicked when he fell in love with the OW and out of love with you?

 

You are not upsetting me! I need to look at it from all angles, like I said. If it turns out that it's not fixable, then I want to know that sooner than later.

 

But no, it's not the same. The only thing that happened quickly was him turning off his feelings for OW. I think those feelings for her developed gradually (affair was 5 months -- PA took place 2 months into that when she flew to visit him on a business trip). Of course I ask the question, how in the world could you be like, "Great, I'm in!" the instant some new acquaintance tells you she's falling for you? That didn't happen in a vacuum. That wasn't love at first sight. That was you being open to it whether it was this woman or someone else.

 

Right around the time of the PA when he entered counseling and sought advice from friends, I noticed how distant we were. I sought out alternative treatments for my chronic illness. I weaned off my SSRI. I kept trying to bridge the gap that I sensed between us. After the counseling, despite the fact that he didn't end things with the OW, he made a commitment to give our marriage a chance and cancelled plans to visit the OW's country. So no, I don't think his feelings for me emerged miraculously from the ashes. I think that as he fell for her, he stopped investing in our relationship emotionally. Then he felt guilty and started investing again. I noticed a distance and invested as well. So on DD when he had to make a choice and felt free by being rid of her, I think we were already on an upswing.

 

First of all, let me say that I'm sorry that you (and I) have had to experience this.

 

I think it might suprise some people how many men really do miss their ow and constantly wonder, what if?

 

Tread Carefully, absolutely it would make sense to miss the OW. I'm not sitting here saying, "Yay me! He doesn't miss her because I'm awesomesauce!" I'm sitting here thinking, "Wow, you're such an a-hole that you thought you loved her enough to think about leaving me and then two weeks after dumping her you were all wrapped up in your 'second honeymoon' with your wife." It was all about him, about how she made him feel. It wasn't about genuine concern he had for her well-being.

 

He had made two complaints in the months leading up to DD. They were 1) I didn't ask him how his day at work was often enough and 2) he asked me to wake up earlier with the children but I kept sleeping through my alarm. It's true, I made a half-hearted effort to do better in these areas and didn't really succeed. Maybe they indicate a lack of interest or respect that I had for him. But do they justify cheating? The reason I didn't succeed is differences in personality (It didn't occur to me to ask about his day because I assumed he felt free to start conversations without prompting being the extrovert to my introvert) and my health condition (I sleep 10 hours a night and am still exhausted) and the fact that wake-ups had always been his duty because he's a morning person. On DD and since he has thrown these sins in my face with such bitterness. He can effuse when he's speaking from his heart, that's for sure. This is our biggest struggle.

 

We are both in IC and have shifted our power dynamic. It used to be 90/10 him/me, and now I'd like to think it's 60/40. But it has not come easily. Old habits die hard. I need to learn to change too. When I became sick while pregnant with our second, I kept thinking my condition would let up once I got past pregnancy, past nursing, etc. But no, it hasn't gotten any better. We didn't deal with it well. He never had any empathy or compassion for me. I would fall ill and need to go to the ER and he would just glare at me. I would have to tell him who to call and what to do. My blood pressure would be so low it was amazing I wasn't unconscious but he acted like I could control it. He was always a super social guy with tons of friends and hobbies. That was fine with me because I like time to myself and I'm pretty independent. But once my health was shot I just gave every extra bit to him because I felt so bad that he couldn't do the things he wanted to do while taking care of a sick wife and kids. But he would always want more, and never really asked me if it was OK. He acted like I was trying to control him if I said, hey, you can't agree to go to a concert or spend all day mountain biking without asking your wife first. He bristled at the "asking" part.

 

So the only positive thing I can say about the affair is that now I see our dynamic for what it is. I see his narcissistic traits. I see how ridiculous our dynamic was. I see how I am NOT to blame for being sick. I see how every second that he's not at work is family time and we are equally responsible for taking care of our children and the rest must be negotiated on terms that please us both. I was always giving him the benefit of the doubt and trying to make him happy, but it was never enough. His life and responsibilities are what they are and he has to make peace with that on his own. He chose to be a parent, and THAT'S why he can't go camping for 9 days every summer with his buddies like he wants to. It's not because I'm some controlling witch. It's because that's being a grown-up. It's because there's an opportunity cost for every thing you do . . . you spend 9 days without your family on vacation, and you have less vacation time to spend WITH your family.

 

So how is he doing with all of this? I'm not wearing rosey enough glasses to say, "Oh! He's doing everything he can! He's so remorseful! It's amazing!" I'll just say that he's doing very well considering where he started. I do stick with the fact that I can read him because he can't lie if his heart's not in it. Just this past week we had another fight about how I failed at waking up early 2 years ago. He's still holding onto that. But like I said, now we're 60/40, which is an amazing improvement. We went to an event for one of his hobbies today and saw a new friend of his (who always speaks disparagingly of his wife, unfortunately), and when he asked WH if he was going to work out tomorrow, he said he thought so but he'd have to discuss it with me later. I instantly felt embarrassed for WH that he had to look like an emasculated man in front of this big talker, but he said, well, he always makes fun of me anyway, and I need to respect your time too. Change is hard but we're doing it. The love is there. The remorse and self-awareness are works in progress. Time will tell if the change will take.

 

I'm really trying to view this objectively. I could fixate on all he HAS done . . . All the notes and flowers and jewelry and trips and the vacation house we bought after DD and everything. He texts me sappy love songs nearly every day. He whispers that he loves me all night long. He takes the kids to school or back to his office just so I can relax or work out or get a massage time and time again. Now when I fall ill, he says, "You are the most important thing. What do you need me to do?" I could bask in all of that, but then we have a deep conversation and the anger about me not waking up comes out again and I'm all, "STILL? Do you know how many things I asked you to do better that you didn't and then I let them go rather than hanging on to them? Do you think your right to resentment over me not waking up when I am clinically fatigued is at all appropriate in the face of you CHEATING ON ME?" And I am not going to sweep it under the rug. That's not who I am. If we have to discuss it 800 times then we will. And for Mr. Head in the Sand, that surely hasn't been easy. But those are the terms of getting a second chance with me.

 

I know that I'm the one who is in charge of my own happiness. Letting go of the guilt I feel for all the things my family can't do because of my illness has been huge. Focusing on myself first before I worry about what would make everyone else happy has been huge too. If he can focus on himself (not his wants but on becoming the person he wants to be) too, then we have a real shot. I rate our chances as better than most, to be honest. But that doesn't mean they're high.

[Tread Carefully]

We have more in common than you know. I just want to give you a hug! ((((heartwhole))))

 

Stay strong, keep posting, going to counseling and trying to move forward.

[Giggle]

My WH waffled and had wanted me to throw a fit and tell him he was staying. I didn't want to be in that position. I didn't want to make him stay where he was clearly unhappy only to pine for someone else. At the end of any reconciliation thoughts, I told him I didn't trust him to be honest with me. I didn't think we could do it. And damn it, I wanted him to choose me, which he clearly wasn't. So fking goodbye then.

 

As an OW, I seem to have less resolve that way because I know he's not going to choose me. But I wouldn't want him to. He told me he was getting divorced, that he was done being married to her. Sooo that wasn't choosing me over her. Them getting divorced had nothing to do with me. I wouldn't want to be the reason for it. However, that wasn't reality.

 

I wouldn't try to force a dday, though she's already discovered.. And then let it go a couple times now. I dont want to cause anguish. I do wonder why she wants him though. Said even though I'm pretty sure I'd still be married if my xh had wanted to be.

[13Hearts]

I think I mentioned this already, but to comment here - no I never wanted a dday. I never wanted to be with my MM just because his wife had thrown him out. My MM often talked about telling her. He said it was too difficult to leave "without a reason". He'd spoken to her about them separating the year prior - and when she asked if there was someone else he denied it - but she just kept saying she didn't understand then why he'd go when they had children. She felt it was better for them to just continue in their roommate almost business like relationship for sake of kids ... And he found it hard to argue with that.

 

For three months up to dday my MM spoke a lot about telling her and leaving, but I staunchly said time and again I did not want that. I didn't want to cause her that pain (which I think must be so much worse then separating for other reasons) and also on a selfish point, I felt it would make our relationship (and my relationship with her and his kids and friends and family etc.) so much harder as a result. My ideal would have been for them to separate for their own reasons and then for us to see if we would work out and was quite prepared to continue to keep it underground for a while until appropriate to declare ourselves a newly formed couple etc. I told him time and again I didn't want you to leave your marriage for me - I want you to leave as it's the right thing for you - and that I absolutely did not want a dday.

 

... Over that same three months my MM became much more lax with deleting texts, much more risky about calling me when out with kids, much more cavalier to see me more often and frequently stay overnight. I even texted him a few times on his way home to stay "remember to delete your texts, do it now" etc. As a result of all his time away I guess she got suspicious, checked his phone, and saw texts he hadn't deleted. I will never know for sure but I suspect my MM wanted to force a dday. I strongly suspect when dday happened he wanted her to throw him out. When I commented she only thought it was three months and not two years he even asked me if I thought he should tell her it had been two years and did I think then she would change her mind?!?!

 

When dday happened I actually was really disappointed and anxious about what that would mean for us and our relationship EITHER way. Not just if he stayed, but if he left under that circumstance.

 

What I think happened to him at dday was reality slapped him the face, he saw her upset and pleading, he saw his kids crying and pleading, and he just could not do it to them..... I am not sure if he thought it would be a lot easier; she'd find out, throw him out and everyone would move on... Ahem... I guess that's what my MM was like. I know some (especially the BS on this forum from what I have read recently) might well say that maybe he forced a dday to end our A. Maybe. Guess I will never really truly know that, but his behaviour afterwards makes me think that is less likely (but not impossible).

 

Sorry I mean xMM! Must keep remembering to say that!

 

I think this is what happened with my xMM too Pili-Pala. Though his kids are grown, I believe he wanted out and told her we were together. And when he saw how she reacted, he felt guilty because she hasn't done anything "wrong," so to speak. She's a good person, etc, he just doesn't want to be married to her anymore. But he didn't think it all the way through. So, when he saw how she reacted, he back-pedaled to try to make life easier on himself, since he couldn't move out. He couldn't do it to her. I get it.

[sandylee1]

 

But the last one, the one where I'd had a 20+ year break in being involved with MM. The one that I'm finished with and miss him, but don't want to cause him pain? That one I take the full 50% blame for. But not 51%.

 

I see it as each party has 100% blame for their participation in an affair.

 

Being a mother of a teenage girl.... I am appalled at a 30+ year old man being with a child of 16... much less a married man. If anyone did that to my daughter ..... he would wish he was never born quite frankly. My husband and brothers would have him strung up by the short and curleys.

 

When you call it a relationship because you were single ... you have to know that's not the case. The fact that your boyfriend is married makes it an affair. If either party is committed to another ...it's an affair.

 

The fact that after the first seduction... or even during it. ... you would have been hidden..... that it was a secrer...shows that you know or you knew it was wrong.

 

A ten year old in my country is criminally responsible. They are deemed to have the capacity to know right from wrong... unless they have some sort of learning disability... where they don't have the normal reasoning ability for a child their age.

 

I have a 16 year old daughter ....she knows it's wrong to cheat on your BF/GF/WIFE ...... but I accept that your exposure coming from a small town ..with limited exposure and bearing in mind technology has developed (Internet etc) ..certainly played a huge part in who you are today and the choices you've made.

 

That man was horrible to you and I'm sorry you went through that nasty anal experience as well.

 

There's no doubt that a much older man or a woman in *relationships....can use their life experience to manipulate their partner... I've seen it happen a lot...even in marriage. That's why I don't like huge age gaps.... because the older one has an advantage.

 

*reminds me of the Amy Buttafuco case.. where she was seduced and manipulated..

[cocorico]

I have noticed a theme of wondering why in the world the BW would stay. I was wondering if this is because you envisioned that the BW would kick out the MM and then you'd have a chance to figure out if you wanted to be together in the real world. Was this the case for a lot if you?

<snip>

Apparently he's viewed as powerless to take action for his own happiness so it all hinges on the BW casting him aside. What confuses me is why you would want a man who's only with you because another woman rejected him. During the affair were you thinking, poor MM can't be expected to leave because of finances and kids, but if he loses those things as a byproduct of BW kicking him out, then no harm, no foul?

 

I'm a fOW, in a slightly different position. We did not have a DDay. Instead, at the point of deciding we wanted to be together full-time, he informed the xBW that he intended to leave her once he found a suitable place for himself and the kids, which he later did. So, no discovery by the BS, no "kicking out" etc.

 

But yes, there was "begging and pleading", after an initial period of denial. And yes, I did wonder why she wanted him to stay (or return, once he'd left). I'd seen enough evidence of how awful their R was, and could not understand why any person would want that - and want it so badly that they refused during the decades the M to consider making it a proper M, refused to entertain MC or to even consider that he wasn't as happy with the status quo as she was.

 

I saw their communications - pretty much the entire history, from when he was still a schoolboy and she a MW married to a schoolteacher, writing him letters on lined paper telling him how awful her M was, to once he'd left her: the hysterical raging emails he autoforwarded to me so I could triage them to protect his blood pressure... I did wonder why she wanted that, that dysfunctional abusive thing she called a M that had destroyed his health, led to doctors and counsellors and colleagues and family and even neighbours telling him to dump her - if it was that toxic for him, how could it be anything but toxic for her, too?

[cocorico]

Agreed, men who leave, leave pretty promptly, they do not cake eat, and hum and haw, they know what they want and they grab it with both hands before someone else gets it.

Kids, houses, jobs, divorce all sorted out, and he moves on with the OW.

All this, he says he loves me but he cannot leave her or the kids due to xyz, is just garbage and cheap talk.

 

not always. My H left after about 3 years of A, when the kids were "ready". My father waited until the kids had all left home. Other fOW on these boards also reported fMM leaving after about 3 years of A. I think it really depends on the kind of A / motivation for the infidelity, the particular circumstances of the MM, and the nature of the AR.

 

If it's an "exit A" and the MM is simply looking for a way out of a M, then yes, it can be pretty quick. If it's an unplanned A, MM falls in love with OW but hadn't been looking to leave, then there is a lot of thinking through that needs to happen, especially if there are kids involved. Breaking up a family set up on a whim is not something a loving father considers - they really need to be sure they're doing the right thing, and that takes time. And then, sometimes the MM might even still have residual love for the BW - complicating the decision still further.

[Lady2163]

I see it as each party has 100% blame for their participation in an affair.

 

Being a mother of a teenage girl.... I am appalled at a 30+ year old man being with a child of 16... much less a married man. If anyone did that to my daughter ..... he would wish he was never born quite frankly. My husband and brothers would have him strung up by the short and curleys.

 

When you call it a relationship because you were single ... you have to know that's not the case. The fact that your boyfriend is married makes it an affair. If either party is committed to another ...it's an affair.

 

The fact that after the first seduction... or even during it. ... you would have been hidden..... that it was a secrer...shows that you know or you knew it was wrong.

 

A ten year old in my country is criminally responsible. They are deemed to have the capacity to know right from wrong... unless they have some sort of learning disability... where they don't have the normal reasoning ability for a child their age.

 

I have a 16 year old daughter ....she knows it's wrong to cheat on your BF/GF/WIFE ...... but I accept that your exposure coming from a small town ..with limited exposure and bearing in mind technology has developed (Internet etc) ..certainly played a huge part in who you are today and the choices you've made.

 

That man was horrible to you and I'm sorry you went through that nasty anal experience as well.

 

There's no doubt that a much older man or a woman in *relationships....can use their life experience to manipulate their partner... I've seen it happen a lot...even in marriage. That's why I don't like huge age gaps.... because the older one has an advantage.

 

*reminds me of the Amy Buttafuco case.. where she was seduced and manipulated..

 

By definition, a single person can't have an affair. I'm actually more hesitant to call it a relationship. I prefer friendship, but then it sounds like we were just sex buddies.

 

You get that you're blaming the victim, right? That's pretty offensive. A ten year old in your country may be held legally accountable, but that doesn't mean if a ten year old isn't molested, it isn't child abuse. Pedophiles get children to keep secrets all the time.

 

Biology tells us scientifically that our brains do not fully form until we are in our 20s. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be held responsible for our actions, but it does mean we may not process things the way we should. We may not grasp intricacies and nuances at 16 the way we will at 26. Did I know at 16 I was being seduced, groomed and in an emotionally, mentally and physically anusive situation? Nope. He gave me an orgasm and I was hooked. It was like a drug. However, my dealer was a sadist.

 

My thought process was if I told, I would be the bad person. He would blame me and it would be viewed as my fault. I would have to be sent away and there really was no place or relative for me to go to. All options seemed worse than where I was. Oh - and the orgasms would stop. I was 16, I had urges, wants and desires. They were pretty powerful. At 16, I have no doubt my teachers must have thought I was a slacker since I spent most of my day totally daydreaming about sex and zoned out. Again, at 26 I did better at masking my horniness and fantasies that would pop into my head.

 

At 16, I may have known it was wrong, but trust me, he spent plenty of time telling me it was perfectly fine. I even remember asking him about God and religion. Not so much about him having extra marital sex, but specifically if I was going to hell for having pre-marital sex. He said all the right things to convince me I wouldn't burn in hell.

 

Sex at 16 was always a secret back then. Nobody flaunted it. Boys who bragged in the locker room quickly found themselves single and pariahs. Usually there were one or two who would blast it out there and they were stuck waiting until the next school year and a new crop of freshman came in, unaware of their "prowess".

 

It is tough explain and remind people what it was like growing up in small town, conservative Christian Bible Belt. Four TV channels and we weren't allowed to watch Dallas or other adult shows. No way you were getting in to see an R rated movie. There was even a chance the theater manager would call your parents to see if you really could watch the PG movie. If he felt it was too risqué and told your parents that, you were headed home or to the park, but you weren't seeing that movie.

 

So, church, parents, community and school all kept us pretty naive.

 

Inwardly, I wince when parents send (or let) their teen get a part time job. In the right circumstances it can be rewarding and character building. In the wrong circumstances you are putting your child in the hands of possible sociopaths. My folks had a no quit policy when it came to jobs, sports and clubs. Otherwise, I think I would have quit the job where he first saw me.

[Cymbeline]

' I strongly suspect when dday happened he wanted her to throw him out. When I commented she only thought it was three months and not two years he even asked me if I thought he should tell her it had been two years and did I think then she would change her mind?!?! '

 

This aspect always interests me. Do they want to be thrown out? Dontheybwant to be 'caught' and be made to stop? Do they want to be caught and have the wife make the decision for them Because they are unable to?

 

With middle aged people in longer marriages, the 'Mummy' effect seems depressingly apt here. Men (usually men) sneak around like naughty teenagers behind Mummy's back and when they get in over their heads, get careless so that Mummy stops it all. My therapist says that happened in our marriage and his placing me in the Mummy role was also the source of the affair (it was with someone very pretty but 19 years younger than us, and rather naive and although had a career , was far less educated than I)

 

Depressing for me, but common apparently, when wives are capable, to want someone younger and adoring. A large part of reconciliation was remembering how to be a girlfriend again, After years of managing things during 6 international moves while he worked and travelled. It was pleasant in some ways but I do resent feeling rather punished for being competent.

[sandylee1]

' I strongly suspect when dday happened he wanted her to throw him out. When I commented she only thought it was three months and not two years he even asked me if I thought he should tell her it had been two years and did I think then she would change her mind?!?! '

 

.

 

Yeah, I wondered about this too ^^^^^^

 

So this man isn't strong enough to say..I'm not happy..I'm leaving ?

 

He is that stupid to ask the OW if she might throw him out if he tells the truth and says it's 2 years.... what nonsense

 

 

Weak and spineless is not attractive in a man .... no way.

 

The man is right where he wants to be......make no mistake.