How resolving issues in a relationship should go

[adarna]

Your SO does something that hurts you.

 

You have a conversation about it.

 

If he/she loves you and cares about you, he/she stops that behavior.

 

If he/she does not NOT stop the behavior, he/she does NOT truly love and care about you. That's when you know it's time to leave.

 

This is generally the way it's supposed to go, right?

 

But then there are SOs who say they do love and care about you, but they still aren't willing to stop the behavior, knowing full well that it is hurting you. It's because they don't think what they are doing is wrong or that big of a deal or they see you wanting him/her to stop that as a form of control and wanting them to change.

 

But shouldn't the fact that it is hurting you be enough for them to stop? What would you do if they don't?

 

Thoughts?

[Toodaloo]

Depends what the behaviour is.

 

It hurts if someone thumps me. That does not warrant discussion that warrants end of relationship and outta there faster than a speeding bullet.

 

It hurts if someone flirts with others and ignores me. That warrents a "when you behave like this it hurts me because it makes me think this" conversation. A few weeks trial but if he doesn't change again whopsie and outta there.

 

It annoys the day lights out of me when some one leaves the toilet seat up all the time... That warrents a bucket of water over the bathroom door as a reminder.

 

If they continue knowing it hurts you they are either sadistic and want you to hurt or completely stupid and have no clue what you just said or they just don't care.

 

All three reasons require jumping ship before it gets worse. Because it will.

[Redhead14]

Your SO does something that hurts you.

 

You have a conversation about it.

 

If he/she loves you and cares about you, he/she stops that behavior.

 

If he/she does not NOT stop the behavior, he/she does NOT truly love and care about you. That's when you know it's time to leave.

 

This is generally the way it's supposed to go, right?

 

But then there are SOs who say they do love and care about you, but they still aren't willing to stop the behavior, knowing full well that it is hurting you. It's because they don't think what they are doing is wrong or that big of a deal or they see you wanting him/her to stop that as a form of control and wanting them to change.

 

But shouldn't the fact that it is hurting you be enough for them to stop? What would you do if they don't?

 

Thoughts?

 

because they don't think what they are doing is wrong or that big of a deal -- It doesn't matter if THEY think it's wrong or hurtful, what matters is what you think and feel. If they care about you, they will stop it. What you are describing above is about someone who is selfish and controlling.

 

or they see you wanting him/her to stop that as a form of control and wanting them to change. -- If what they are doing is wrong or hurtful and this is how they view it, it's time to go because they are incapable of empathy or unable to put themselves in the other person's shoes.

 

What specifically is it that's happening with your situation?

[Lady2163]

There's a pretty good blog, "Must be this tall to ride". He talks a lot about how his wife divorced him because of dirty dishes. Now, that's not really what happened, this guy did some major screw-ups and I don't blame his now ex-wife one bit. It takes a while to find them, he doesn't talk about them as much.

 

But he does talk about the little things men (and people) do that damage a relationship over time. I think many of the comments refer to 1000 little cuts. One small cut by itself won't kill the marriage, but if you're doing one small cut a day, every day and the limit is 1000, your marriage or relationship is toast within 3 years. And this guy notoriously left one dirty glass by the sink. Not in the sink or in the dishwasher, but by the sink. Even though the kitchen could be spotless,,the dishwasher was a couple of feet away, he would leave this glass by the sink. One of his reasons was: he might just want another drink again in an hour. No need to dirty another glass. Meanwhile his wife just sees a guy too lazy to clean up after himself and someone who wants to mar her clean kitchen. She feels like her work is undervalued and undermined and he thinks she should chill out, it's just a glass.

 

In my 20s, I would have nagged about it, without giving my reason. In my 30s I would have just put the glass in the dishwasher myself. In my 40s I would have carefully explained why this was bothering me. In my 50s after explaining myself, I'd just start taking one thing off his pegboard and moving it five feet away. And I'd apply the same argument. Gee, I might need it again...

 

Love, honor, cherish. These are the basic marriage vows. Now I realize the OP isn't married, but you have to determine how many minor behaviors, flaws in your eyes you can tolerate before it tells you this person REALLY doesn't love or cherish you. Behaviors that sabotage and create stress that could be avoided aren't cherishing. I can't tell you how many times I went to work in a bad mood because my exH would choose to take a major poop in my bathroom two minutes before I was going to shower. He thought my gaggimg was hysterical. And reading it you may as well. But the end result was that a nice, relaxing shower before going to a stressful job was obliterated. No amount of explanation or reasoning got through to him. He didn't care if I was in a bad mood, after all I was going to work, he didn't have to tolerate me. Finally, he was forbidden to use my bathroom for any reason. Ever. Now, did he use it when I wasn't around? Probably. But never when I was in the house. And the behavior he was so proud of? He knew it was wrong, because he was mortified one time why his mother asked him why he went all the way upstairs to use the bathroom. He tried to lie and I watched him squirm before I told the truth.

 

So, that marriage was doomed....

 

But, back on topic. What are your limits and what is your tolerance? Sometimes it doesn't hurt to ask a friend about the behavior. They may tell you you're justified or that you're blowing it out of proportion.

 

Good luck.

[Miss Peach]

OP - Have you read anything by Gottman? He has a lab where he spent decade studying couples and can predict who will stay together with a high accuracy.

 

He describes it as opening/closing doors. There are millions of things that can happen throughout the day where someone feels they were included/matters/door was open. But the partner can also close the door. He says the predictor is how couples see/respond to the closed door incidents.

 

If he won't do anything at all or strike any sort of compromise he might not be a good fit for the long term.

[mikeylo]

People who are committed to make a relationship work, stop the behavior that their SO doesn't like. No working around it. Rest all are excuses.

If the tables were turned, they themselves would be the first to blow !

 

It takes one unacceptable behavior to ruin everything.

[central]

It depends on the behavior in question. Some things are genuinely hurtful and harm the relationship or the spouse. Some are perceived issues that rationally shouldn't matter (yet, they do - but who, then, is at fault?).

 

 

I think I'd need an example of the issue in question, OP, to answer more helpfully.

[adarna]

It depends on the behavior in question. Some things are genuinely hurtful and harm the relationship or the spouse. Some are perceived issues that rationally shouldn't matter (yet, they do - but who, then, is at fault?).

 

Yes, I'm talking about actions/behaviors that are genuinely hurtful, not things that you don't like or are just annoying or bothersome.

 

And I do wonder, even if something was a perceived issue that rationally shouldn't matter, but genuinely hurts your SO anyway -- assuming it's not a recurring event or pattern and that there are no psychological issues -- does rationality even matter? To me, the fact that it's hurting them should be enough to stop, end of discussion. Do you guys agree?

[rester]

 

If he/she does not NOT stop the behavior, he/she does NOT truly love and care about you.

 

I don't fully agree with the bolded. Some people won't be able to change certain behaviors no matter how much they love and care about their partner.

 

This doesn't mean one has to tolerate that behavior.

[central]

Yes, I'm talking about actions/behaviors that are genuinely hurtful, not things that you don't like or are just annoying or bothersome.

 

And I do wonder, even if something was a perceived issue that rationally shouldn't matter, but genuinely hurts your SO anyway -- assuming it's not a recurring event or pattern and that there are no psychological issues -- does rationality even matter? To me, the fact that it's hurting them should be enough to stop, end of discussion. Do you guys agree?

 

Genuinely hurtful behaviors should stop, of course. If it's an addition or similar, they will need help, but must recognize that they do in order to change. Otherwise, the best thing to do is leave.

 

 

As for the bolded, I say again that it depends. Let's say I want to shoot pool with my guy friends for a few hours once every other week. No heavy drinking, no flirting with women, etc. - just a social thing with male friends. Most of the rest of the time I'm home with you, or doing things with you when I'm not at work. If you had a problem with that, and insisted I stay home with you and that my going out hurt you, then you'd be wrong and I shouldn't stop seeing my friends. You may need to get friends of your own, or find a hobby, as everyone needs time for themselves, IMO.

[katiegrl]

Genuinely hurtful behaviors should stop, of course. .

 

IMO it would depend on what the person hurting deems "genuinely hurtful behavior" and if her expectation that he (or she) stop that "hurtful behavior" is a reasonable expectation.

 

For example what if a woman is so insecure that she needs her boyfriend to contact her several times throughout the day, otherwise she feels hurt and feels he must not love her.

 

Her boyfriend has a very very busy stressful job and is not able to drop what he's doing several times throughout the day to contact her or respond to her.

 

So if she were to text him.... he won't have time to respond, until let's say later that night.

 

Meanwhile, she is a barrel of anxiety, finds it difficult to function because he's not responding, and feels hurt.

Is it reasonable for her to expect that he drop what he's doing each and every time she sends him a text....lest she feels he doesn't care about her?

 

I am just using that as an example....but to the OP, what types of hurtful behaviors are you referring to?

 

And is his so-called hurtful because it's actually hurtful (in general) or hurtful to you specifically due to insecurities and/or anxieties that you haven't dealt with yet?

 

I don't know your situation, I am just asking.

 

But more details would be helpful so we cannot respond more appropriately to your particular situation.

Edited March 11, 2016 by katiegrl

[adarna]

IMO it would depend on what the person hurting deems "genuinely hurtful behavior" and if her expectation that he (or she) stop that "hurtful behavior" is a reasonable expectation.

 

For example what if a woman is so insecure that she needs her boyfriend to contact her several times throughout the day, otherwise she feels hurt and feels he must not love her.

 

Her boyfriend has a very very busy stressful job and is not able to drop what he's doing several times throughout the day to contact her or respond to her.

 

So if she were to text him.... he won't have time to respond, until let's say later that night.

 

Meanwhile, she is a barrel of anxiety, finds it difficult to function because he's not responding, and feels hurt.

Is it reasonable for her to expect that he drop what he's doing each and every time she sends him a text....lest she feels he doesn't care about her?

 

I am just using that as an example....but to the OP, what types of hurtful behaviors are you referring to?

 

And is his so-called hurtful because it's actually hurtful (in general) or hurtful to you specifically due to insecurities and/or anxieties that you haven't dealt with yet?

 

I don't know your situation, I am just asking.

 

But more details would be helpful so we cannot respond more appropriately to your particular situation.

 

No particular situation in my current relationship, was just trying to get everyone's general thoughts and beliefs. I do mean things that are by anyone's standard hurtful -- maybe one metric of measurement is if you do the same thing to your SO he/she would be hurt too -- not anxiety/insecurity.

 

But you guys are right, what's "genuinely hurtful" can be subjective. Which leads to my point, shouldn't all that matter is what the person is feeling, like Redhead said earlier? If you love someone, you don't want to keep hurting them.

 

Then again, like Rester pointed out, some people just really cannot and will not change, but you don't have to tolerate it.

[central]

But you guys are right, what's "genuinely hurtful" can be subjective. Which leads to my point, shouldn't all that matter is what the person is feeling, like Redhead said earlier? If you love someone, you don't want to keep hurting them.

 

Again, it depends. If I give in on something that you say hurts you, that is about one of these subjective issue, that may hurt me equally, or perhaps worse. Shouldn't all that matters in this case is that your wish hurts me? Whose hurt matters more then? Sometimes you just have to disagree and live with things you don't like - if they're of sufficient importance, you may have to break up over it because you're incompatible.

[adarna]

Genuinely hurtful behaviors should stop, of course. If it's an addition or similar, they will need help, but must recognize that they do in order to change. Otherwise, the best thing to do is leave.

 

 

As for the bolded, I say again that it depends. Let's say I want to shoot pool with my guy friends for a few hours once every other week. No heavy drinking, no flirting with women, etc. - just a social thing with male friends. Most of the rest of the time I'm home with you, or doing things with you when I'm not at work. If you had a problem with that, and insisted I stay home with you and that my going out hurt you, then you'd be wrong and I shouldn't stop seeing my friends. You may need to get friends of your own, or find a hobby, as everyone needs time for themselves, IMO.

 

So, to me this is not considered genuinely hurtful. I think having friends/hobbies/me-time outside of being a couple is a good balance in a healthy relationship. I would think my partner was incredibly needy and insecure.

 

Now, if you hardly had time for me, but always had time for your friends, I'd say that would be hurtful and I would second-guess how important I really am to you.

[katiegrl]

No particular situation in my current relationship, was just trying to get everyone's general thoughts and beliefs. I do mean things that are by anyone's standard hurtful -- maybe one metric of measurement is if you do the same thing to your SO he/she would be hurt too -- not anxiety/insecurity.

 

But you guys are right, what's "genuinely hurtful" can be subjective. Which leads to my point, shouldn't all that matter is what the person is feeling, like Redhead said earlier? If you love someone, you don't want to keep hurting them.

 

Then again, like Rester pointed out, some people just really cannot and will not change, but you don't have to tolerate it.

 

My personal opinion is when I enter into a RL with a man, I accept him "as is" - I don't try to change him.

 

He is who he is.... I am who I am. We either accept each other, and what we both bring to the table....or we don't.

 

If we can't accept it.... then we move on.

 

I think it's wrong to try to "change" someone to suit our particular requirements.

 

Taking the example in my previous post, if I needed my boyfriend to keep constant contact with me throughout the day, but he wasn't able (or didn't want to) do that....then I either lower my expectations in that regard, or move on.

 

Everyone is different. Just as another example....some people need more space than others, and if they don't wish to see their gf/bf 5 times a week or call/text several times throughout the day.... it doesn't mean they don't care about him/her....it just means they need more space than their partner.

 

Again, JMO but it would be wrong for the partner needing more togetherness to expect their partner (who needs more space) to change to suit their needs.

 

Using that logic, why can't the person who needs more togetherness change to suit their partner's need for more space?

 

In this case, a healthy compromise would be in order (that is what I would shoot for first)...but often times it's just a simple case of incompatibility and move on to find more suitable and compatible partners.

 

 

[adarna]

OP - Have you read anything by Gottman? He has a lab where he spent decade studying couples and can predict who will stay together with a high accuracy.

 

He describes it as opening/closing doors. There are millions of things that can happen throughout the day where someone feels they were included/matters/door was open. But the partner can also close the door. He says the predictor is how couples see/respond to the closed door incidents.

 

If he won't do anything at all or strike any sort of compromise he might not be a good fit for the long term.

 

Interesting! I have not, but I will look into it. Is there anything you recommend in particular?

 

Is the concept more so like the saying, you can't control what people do, but you can control how you react?

(Or something like that )

[katiegrl]

So, to me this is not considered genuinely hurtful. I think having friends/hobbies/me-time outside of being a couple is a good balance in a healthy relationship. I would think my partner was incredibly needy and insecure.

 

Now, if you hardly had time for me, but always had time for your friends, I'd say that would be hurtful and I would second-guess how important I really am to you.

 

I agree with you adarna.... and with respect to the bolded.....I wouldn't even bother discussing this with him.... I mean his actions speak volumes and would be all I need to know ..... and would simply move on.

 

Just me.... I know there are others who would advise talking to him....but I have learned a man gives what he wants to give..... asking him might bring about a temporary change but his heart wouldn't be into it....he'd only be doing it cause I asked.....and frankly I don't want a man to change a behavior because I asked..... I want him to change it because he wants to change it, all on his own, from his heart.... because he loves me....and in the above scenario because he wants to spend time with ME!

Edited March 11, 2016 by katiegrl

[Miss Peach]

Interesting! I have not, but I will look into it. Is there anything you recommend in particular?

 

Is the concept more so like the saying, you can't control what people do, but you can control how you react?

(Or something like that )

 

Gottman has several books on these topics. The last one I read was 'What Makes Love Last' where he talks about trust and the opening/shutting of doors. I would just find the one that speaks to you. You can find some articles on his work online which should give you an idea. Basically he talks about how people's behaviors, body language, etc. will either help the relationship or hurt it. He points out the behaviors that hurt rs (called the 4 horsemen). A lot of it is about empathy, communication and compromise. If this is missing then a lot of couples don't make it.

 

The part about needing to accept a man/woman as-is or reject their behavior is actually from Dr. Pat Allen. She says tolerating is the worst thing you can do. I really like her book Getting to I Do. She also has podcasts of her monthly workshops if you want to get an idea of her philosophies for free. Her work is heavily focused on gender roles and how to communicate to the opposite gender.

 

One other good read about boundaries for me was on Natalie Lue's blog called Baggage Reclaim. Those articles were priceless to me to understand what normal was and what boundaries were after some pretty unhealthy relationships.

[katiegrl]

The part about needing to accept a man/woman as-is or reject their behavior is actually from Dr. Pat Allen. She says tolerating is the worst thing you can do. I really like her book Getting to I Do. She also has podcasts of her monthly workshops if you want to get an idea of her philosophies for free. Her work is heavily focused on gender roles and how to communicate to the opposite gender.

 

One other good read about boundaries for me was on Natalie Lue's blog called Baggage Reclaim. Those articles were priceless to me to understand what normal was and what boundaries were after some pretty unhealthy relationships.

 

Ms. Peach.... I have read both those! And agree, both excellent resources of information!

[adarna]

I just thought of an example that I think everyone would agree is hurtful behavior. I wouldn't tolerate it so I left.

 

An ex of mine from a couple years back would not /could not, for the life of him, stop talking to women online. I don't think he ever cheated on me in terms of bringing things offline, and he said he had absolutely no intentions of it, but it was very hurtful to me. Not because I was insecure, but because it was disrespectful. He, on the other hand, didn't think anything was wrong with what he was doing because these women were just online, not in real life.

 

I told him how I felt and he stopped for a couple months, then it started up again and there was no way I could live with that.

[katiegrl]

I just thought of an example that I think everyone would agree is hurtful behavior. I wouldn't tolerate it so I left.

 

An ex of mine from a couple years back would not /could not, for the life of him, stop talking to women online. I don't think he ever cheated on me in terms of bringing things offline, and he said he had absolutely no intentions of it, but it was very hurtful to me. Not because I was insecure, but because it was disrespectful. He, on the other hand, didn't think anything was wrong with what he was doing because these women were just online, not in real life.

 

I told him how I felt and he stopped for a couple months, then it started up again and there was no way I could live with that.

 

I agree with you.... I would have left too!

 

And re the bolded.... this was precisely my point when I said how useless it is to even bother talking to a guy about this.... or about any other hurtful behavior you want him to change.

 

A man is gonna do what he wants to do...and if he wanted to stop....he sure wouldn't be needing you to ask him to!

 

Either we accept behavior or if we can't, we move on.

 

Asking a man to change (for us) is a futile waste of energy.

 

I believe Pat Allen says this too, in one of her books.

Edited March 12, 2016 by katiegrl

[Els]

I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that. The SO's beliefs and perceptions matter just as much as yours do - that is why a compromise is often necessary, and perhaps a breakup if compromise has been found to be impossible.

 

Let's go to a (rather extreme) example to prove this point. Your SO says, "You going out by yourself and conversing with men makes me feel uncomfortable and hurt. You should stay at home unless I am available to take you anywhere, and you should not talk to any men without me present." According to your logic, you should stop doing whatever it is that he wants you to stop doing, if you love him, right??? But obviously that is wrong and should not be your response to this particular request.

 

TL;DR: It depends entirely on WHAT you are asking them to stop doing, and why, and how reasonable that request is. "Because it hurts me" is not really a good reason in and of itself.

[adarna]

I don't think it's anywhere near as simple as that. The SO's beliefs and perceptions matter just as much as yours do - that is why a compromise is often necessary, and perhaps a breakup if compromise has been found to be impossible.

 

Let's go to a (rather extreme) example to prove this point. Your SO says, "You going out by yourself and conversing with men makes me feel uncomfortable and hurt. You should stay at home unless I am available to take you anywhere, and you should not talk to any men without me present." According to your logic, you should stop doing whatever it is that he wants you to stop doing, if you love him, right??? But obviously that is wrong and should not be your response to this particular request.

 

TL;DR: It depends entirely on WHAT you are asking them to stop doing, and why, and how reasonable that request is. "Because it hurts me" is not really a good reason in and of itself.

 

No, my logic is based on non-extremes, that the average person is reasonably hurt. See example about my ex and my response to central's post. My question is specifically regarding situations where most people would agree that "because it hurts me" is a good enough reason in and of itself, that the request is not unreasonable and SO stopping said behavior is not the wrong response in a healthy relationship.

 

I do see what you mean about the SO's perceptions and beliefs mattering also. That's definitely where compromise comes in.

Edited March 12, 2016 by adarna

[adarna]

I agree with you.... I would have left too!

 

And re the bolded.... this was precisely my point when I said how useless it is to even bother talking to a guy about this.... or about any other hurtful behavior you want him to change.

 

A man is gonna do what he wants to do...and if he wanted to stop....he sure wouldn't be needing you to ask him to!

 

Either we accept behavior or if we can't, we move on.

 

Asking a man to change (for us) is a futile waste of energy.

 

I believe Pat Allen says this too, in one of her books.

 

I agree to an extent. I think the exception would be if a man doesn't know his actions are hurtful. There are plenty of good men who would stop not because his woman asked him to, but because he loves her and doesn't want to hurt her. That change comes from his own heart and his own free will, not from her ASKING him to change.

[adarna]

Gottman has several books on these topics. The last one I read was 'What Makes Love Last' where he talks about trust and the opening/shutting of doors. I would just find the one that speaks to you. You can find some articles on his work online which should give you an idea. Basically he talks about how people's behaviors, body language, etc. will either help the relationship or hurt it. He points out the behaviors that hurt rs (called the 4 horsemen). A lot of it is about empathy, communication and compromise. If this is missing then a lot of couples don't make it.

 

The part about needing to accept a man/woman as-is or reject their behavior is actually from Dr. Pat Allen. She says tolerating is the worst thing you can do. I really like her book Getting to I Do. She also has podcasts of her monthly workshops if you want to get an idea of her philosophies for free. Her work is heavily focused on gender roles and how to communicate to the opposite gender.

 

One other good read about boundaries for me was on Natalie Lue's blog called Baggage Reclaim. Those articles were priceless to me to understand what normal was and what boundaries were after some pretty unhealthy relationships.

 

Thank you, I will check them out!

 

Empathy is big for me and is a huge deal breaker if a man I'm dating exhibits any signs of lacking it.

 

I recently discovered Baggage Reclaim! I definitely know what you mean. I think when we're in unhealthy relationships, especially when we're younger or not as experienced in dating, we tend to make unhealthy compromises too and stop recognizing what's normal and even forget about our boundaries or become more flexible with them.