Infidelity: which is the lesser of the two evil?

[DrReplyInRhymes]

Oh My God.

Dr. Dr. Reply in Rhythms,

 

WOW.

 

Can I just say that it's really hard to read your responses for me

because I'm so impressed with your poetry writing skills and rhythms that match in such perfection that I forget to read the actual message in your posts.

(That's a darn compliment).

 

Seriously impressive (the poetry that is).

The message in the poetry (after reading twice), darn cool too.

 

You are truly too kind

[burnt]

You are truly too kind

 

???

Wait, what happened to the poetry…?

 

The above reply is not in Rhythms, DrReplyInRhythms.

[TrustedthenBusted]

If I could rewrite history, I probably would have said " I Don't" instead of " I Do."

[Gloria25]

Thank you purple sorrow;

that's a very interesting point you just made above.

 

Added question for you: (just curious)

if you find out tomorrow that your husband has developed feelings for another woman, feels very attracted to her, and is constantly thinking about her, even though he is trying to brush those thoughts aside, but does not act on his desires/temptations,

how would you feel?

 

I'm asking because:

While I do not know what it feels like to be a BS,

I feel if my lover/partner had feelings for someone else that would be much much harder for me to handle--it would really crush me more than the knowledge of any physical affair.

 

While I see this question was sorta directed to purplesorrow, I hope you don't mind if I respond...

 

Thing is, we all "think" things. Some of us think awful things. But, IMO, what matters most is if we "act" on it and/or "show" it.

 

Some people believe they need to have an "open book" with people - especially their SO and just dump on their SO all the crap that they would be better to tell a counselor, therapist, and/or a priest. Cuz, why tell the person something hurtful (i.e. you're thinking about the OW/OM) if you have no intentions to act on it? Now your SO has to walk around worried "if/when" you will act on those thoughts - especially since you thought you had to inform your SO of such.

 

My fav podcaster says when you tell someone something, you expect them to use that info for something. So, how is telling your SO that you're thinking of a OW/OM gonna benefit them if it's not a threat to your marriage. I can see if like your thoughts about the OW/OM are getting to the point where you feel you may act on it and you must give your SO the info to know where they stand in your marriage (you're about to separate from/divorce them). But to tell them to "cleanse your conscious/soul", IMO, is cruel and unnecessary.

[cocorico]

If my H were to engage in either, I would find #2 easier to accept. It wasn't an intentional deception, it was a response to a difficult situation. #1, to me, would paint him as the kind of person I could not happily continue being M to. Holding such an instrumental view of another person is just not who he is or how he operates, and I would struggle to reconcile that with the man I love. Falling in love with another woman - yes, that's him, that's what happened with us, that I can live with, it's consistent with how I know him. The other - the aliens have carried him away!

 

If I were to be OW in either situation - it would depend on my own situation. If I was bored myself, dallying about with several part-time flings, the #1 would suit me. But if I was looking for a R, I'd prefer something symmetrical to my own interest, hence #2.

[whichwayisup]

#1: Cheated. Intentionally planned to cheat, but no emotional attachment.

 

#2: Cheated. Didn't intend to cheat, but developed emotional attachment.

Either way, thought went into it, and efforts were made to cheat, regardless of how it started out. An affair is an affair. One time is one thing but choosing to continue (either 1 or 2) IS VERY INTENTIONAL. Both end up as selfish reasons and betrayal.

[Midwestmissy]

I think Liam's responses show how remorseful he is about the whole thing, whereas I sense that Jenkins pines for the ow - or at least that how it seems, total speculation. When cheating involves love and deep emotional ties, it makes people uncomfortable - to imagine my wh feeling sad for the ow would make for a tough reconciliation. I feel for his bw. When I told wh to please leave to be with her, (it was less genteel than that) he was physically ill at the thought of our kids being under the same roof as her.

 

Maybe Liam's situation is perceived as less threatening whereas Jenkins could possibly still change his mind and/or harbor feelings of wanting her. That's a nightmare to someone betrayed who is willing to attempt reconciliation.

[bathrobe]

Potato-potato. 2 actions with the same result. In the first case he was intentionally doing something he knows would hurt his wife. In the second case he was probably texting, flirting, chatting, emailing etc. to the OW to get her in the bed. So he was doing intentionally as well. It didn't just happen he let it happen. People should grow up and own their actions, not trying to find excuses for it.

[jenkins95]

Let me preface by saying I am not and have not been married before,

Commitment for me is huge, its a choice to commit to someone you adore.

 

In this scenario, I can see purples point of view and understand,

For the choice of commitment was betrayed in both of the scenarios at hand,

It really matters not the means to which the outcome came to be,

For the outcome would be the only real problem that mattered to me.

 

If I had a wife, and she made the choice to cheat by decision,

It would be heartbreaking to know she sought that out with precision,

Or if she allowed an emotional bond to develop that culminated in an affair,

It would still have the same outcome of causing the fabric of my heart to tear.

 

I would not really care, or hurt any less, about the means in which it came to pass,

The hurt, the betrayal, the broken vows, the pain that would undoubtedly last,

Both scenarios would equally destroy any chance at a life I thought we mutually shared,

Even if it was the hardest decision of my life, I'd walk out and move on til I no longer cared.

 

Outstanding Doc! I take my hat off to you!

[preraph]

First, I don't think if a person is bored, that just having sex with one person for whom they have no fascination is going to fix that. So to fix boredom, it wouldn't be one woman they were "just having sex with" that "doesn't mean anything." It would be various to alleviate boredom. And then one of them ends up getting your interest regardless of the original intent.

[minimariah]

First, I don't think if a person is bored, that just having sex with one person for whom they have no fascination is going to fix that.

 

i agree -- i will also add... i think boredom is often just an excuse. when you dig a little deeper - you find a LOT of other problems hiding behind boredom.

[MissBee]

If I were the person being cheated on, whether intentional or unintentional, if you did it and keep doing it, at some point it becomes intentional and that would hurt me to know that you're carrying on with someone else and pretending to my face.

 

I can forgive a one night stand or one time sex more easily than something emotional where you love or think you love this other person and are emotionally intimate with them and are essentially carrying on 2 relationships....as no one can do that without it affecting their primary R in some way. However, having sex once arguably doesn't. Ongoing sex with someone else, even if no emotions are involved would also be hurtful.

 

For me then, what is hurtful is prolonged betrayal (regardless of emotional attachment) and emotional attachment.

 

As an OW, of course if my feelings are involved I would want them to be reciprocated so would prefer the MM to be emotionally attached to me as I am him. But if it's just sex to us both, and we both are on the same page, great. I would not want a MM who is lying about his feelings just for sex. In both scenarios, as OW or BS, it boils down to wanting to be treated with respect, not lied to, not led on and being able to choose what I'm getting myself into.

[MissBee]

If I were the person being cheated on, whether intentional or unintentional, if you did it and keep doing it, at some point it becomes intentional and that would hurt me to know that you're carrying on with someone else and pretending to my face.

 

I can forgive a one night stand or one time sex more easily than something emotional where you love or think you love this other person and are emotionally intimate with them and are essentially carrying on 2 relationships, as no one can do that without it affecting their primary R in some way. However, having sex once arguably doesn't. Ongoing sex with someone else, even if no emotions are involved would also be hurtful.

 

For me then, what is hurtful is prolonged betrayal (regardless of emotional attachment) and emotional attachment.

 

As an OW, of course if my feelings are involved I would want them to be reciprocated so would prefer the MM to be emotionally attached to me as I am him. But if it's just sex to us both, and we both are on the same page, great. I would not want a MM who is lying about his feelings just for sex. In both scenarios, as OW or BS, it boils down to wanting to be treated with respect, not lied to, not led on and being able to choose what I'm getting myself into.

[road]

I do not find either way would preferable position to be placed in as a BS.

[Giggle]

As a bs, it was #2. I was devastated but I could understand how it could happen. The first being so much a choice, is less forgivable.

[wmacbride]

I think Liam's responses show how remorseful he is about the whole thing, whereas I sense that Jenkins pines for the ow - or at least that how it seems, total speculation. When cheating involves love and deep emotional ties, it makes people uncomfortable - to imagine my wh feeling sad for the ow would make for a tough reconciliation. I feel for his bw. When I told wh to please leave to be with her, (it was less genteel than that) he was physically ill at the thought of our kids being under the same roof as her.

 

Maybe Liam's situation is perceived as less threatening whereas Jenkins could possibly still change his mind and/or harbor feelings of wanting her. That's a nightmare to someone betrayed who is willing to attempt reconciliation.

 

 

I'm going to jump on the" Liam and Jenkins bandwagon" for a minute:laugh: and also make a few observations.

 

It's almost impossible to say which scenario is better. I don;t think either is 'better".

 

The thing with the above mentioned parties ( Liam and Jenkins) is that I don;t think that the way bs see the way some bs see the situations has anything to do with feeling some sense of misplaced jealousy towards the ow or wanting to paint her as a bad person and the w as some sort of saint.

 

That stands out to me is that their ow's played a role in hurting someone they say they love, their w. Sure, it could have been someone else that they got involved with, but it wasn't. It was those two women. To be frank, I don't understand how either of them could feel positive feelings towards the person who helped hurt their w who they say they love.

No, I'm not blaming the ow for the A, but she sure played a role in it.

 

 

I think of it like this. I love my h, and if my friend, for no reason other than it felt good to her to do so, walked up to him and physically hurt him, I couldn't feel any positive feelings towards her, as she hurt someone I love.

 

I know that may sound odd, but I'm being honest about it.

[wmacbride]

i agree -- i will also add... i think boredom is often just an excuse. when you dig a little deeper - you find a LOT of other problems hiding behind boredom.

 

One problem that \i have heard of that I find quite unpalatable is the concept that some ws feel they deserve to cheat. Not because of anything the bs did or didn't do, but they just feel entitled to do it.

 

I always wonder why people like that don't just stay single and find other single people to be with who share their views.

[health]

In each scenario both cheaters are responsible. The one who never set out to cheat intentionally is probably the less of the two evils. That one is also bad though cause the person lacks control.

 

On a side note when I was in my 20s I used to be so worried about a girl cheating on me. In my early 30s I could care less cause my decision would be to leave.

 

They'd only lose me a fine person with integrity haha - and I'd go on to further growth and progress.

[Popsicle]

This is like asking, which is better, the MM who future fakes or the MM who doesn't future fake?

 

They both suck!!

 

It doesn't matter.

 

The minute you think you found some glory or refuge in one over the other, you will be assaulted by it's offensiveness in the next minute.

[jenkins95]

This has been such an interesting thread, burnt. Thanks for raising such a thought provoking issue. It has produced quite differing responses from posters. There are exceptions, but I would say that more posters find MM#2 more damaging than MM#1 and I tend to agree.

 

As for your observation......

 

So if a man plans, schemes, plots, acts, WILLFULLY to do wrong,

the outcome is better.

 

I am finding the irony in this very hard to accept. I guess that's why I'm posting this thread.

 

Yes, that's hard to get your head round and it plunges us into a moral philosophical debate! And why not...great stuff!

 

MM#1. I think for me, MM#1 can be seen as an individual who is frustrated with his current situation, he sees that something is missing in his life (sex in Liam's case) and that it is not his fault that it is missing - so he deliberately goes out and does something selfish for himself without any thought for anyone else. This can be seen almost like a moment of madness and not an action of the 'real' person (although "moment" in this case could constitute a several month affair). If he later regrets it, recognises and resolves to fix the underlying issues with his W and sees it all for what it is, then I can see how it can be accepted and seen as a symptom of him being momentarily in a very bad place - a place which has now been put behind him.

 

MM#2. I think the implications of MM#2's actions are more disturbing. He doesn't (at least outwardly) recognise that something is missing in his life. He tries to be a good, happy man, a decent husband and do the right thing. And yet, despite this, against all his intentions, resistance and effort, he can't help himself falling for another woman. I can easily see why this could be much more damaging to the BS, and this would be further compounded if the wayward was clearly struggling after the affair - doing all the right things, saying all the right things, but requiring steely resolve and determination to do so, while he is clearly in a very bad place in his mind, lost and not sure of what he really wants.

 

The MM#1 situation could be seen almost like a sudden short term injury to the marriage - analogous to football player breaking his leg during a match. After treating the injury, it can hopefully completely be recovered from and put behind him. Although, continuing the analogy, perhaps that leg will never be quite as strong as it was pre-break.

 

The MM#2 situation on the other had, could possibly be considered as more of a chronic condition - a relationship that, despite everyone's wishes, has some fundamental flaw that weakens it and makes it vulnerable to future attack......and while either partner would never dare to admit it, perhaps deep down their connection is not as deep as they would like it to be - or as deep as it could be with another person. Perhaps the medical analogy here could be like a dormant cancer that can be treated, monitored, looked after and kept at bay, but with never with complete certainty that one day it may not flare up again.

 

I am happy to say, that while I fit burnt's description for MM#2, after 3 months of NC, I am very happy at how my marriage is going! The doubts I described above did plague my mind early after recovery (as they didn't plague Liam), but I am in such a better place now. We are turning it round quickly, and if there was once a cancer, well - the chemo is working with 100% success!

 

Blame waterwoman for all the medical analogies, she started it on another thread, and I thought it was kind of cool!

Edited March 10, 2016 by jenkins95

[burnt]

If I could rewrite history, I probably would have said " I Don't" instead of " I Do."

 

Your response cracked me up! Took me a second to understand what you were referring to. Then in my head I just had this ridiculous image popping up of a wedding and time machine and … a loud assertive "I Don't"…

[burnt]

It has produced quite differing responses from posters.

 

And I ditto that.

Thank you everyone for your responses with the varying perspectives.

 

I have learned (the hard way) that, when I have a problem or a difficult situation in life, having a deeper understanding of the problem helps me a lot more to cope with my problem that to actually seek out advice or concrete suggestions from others.

 

So, thank you all for your responses. I have found some insightful comments and perspectives to ponder upon now.

[Raena]

In my situation #1 turned into #2 so it was both.

 

Which is more painful? I don't think it matters. It hurts either way and causes distrust in the relationship.

 

I do think though that if you are trying to reconcile, it would be easier to think that MM didn't care about the other woman but then what does that say about how he feels about women in general?

[cocorico]

This has been such an interesting thread, burnt. Thanks for raising such a thought provoking issue. It has produced quite differing responses from posters. There are exceptions, but I would say that more posters find MM#2 more damaging than MM#1 and I tend to agree.

 

As for your observation......

 

 

 

Yes, that's hard to get your head round and it plunges us into a moral philosophical debate! And why not...great stuff!

 

MM#1. I think for me, MM#1 can be seen as an individual who is frustrated with his current situation, he sees that something is missing in his life (sex in Liam's case) and that it is not his fault that it is missing - so he deliberately goes out and does something selfish for himself without any thought for anyone else. This can be seen almost like a moment of madness and not an action of the 'real' person (although "moment" in this case could constitute a several month affair). If he later regrets it, recognises and resolves to fix the underlying issues with his W and sees it all for what it is, then I can see how it can be accepted and seen as a symptom of him being momentarily in a very bad place - a place which has now been put behind him.

 

MM#2. I think the implications of MM#2's actions are more disturbing. He doesn't (at least outwardly) recognise that something is missing in his life. He tries to be a good, happy man, a decent husband and do the right thing. And yet, despite this, against all his intentions, resistance and effort, he can't help himself falling for another woman. I can easily see why this could be much more damaging to the BS, and this would be further compounded if the wayward was clearly struggling after the affair - doing all the right things, saying all the right things, but requiring steely resolve and determination to do so, while he is clearly in a very bad place in his mind, lost and not sure of what he really wants.

 

The MM#1 situation could be seen almost like a sudden short term injury to the marriage - analogous to football player breaking his leg during a match. After treating the injury, it can hopefully completely be recovered from and put behind him. Although, continuing the analogy, perhaps that leg will never be quite as strong as it was pre-break.

 

The MM#2 situation on the other had, could possibly be considered as more of a chronic condition - a relationship that, despite everyone's wishes, has some fundamental flaw that weakens it and makes it vulnerable to future attack......and while either partner would never dare to admit it, perhaps deep down their connection is not as deep as they would like it to be - or as deep as it could be with another person. Perhaps the medical analogy here could be like a dormant cancer that can be treated, monitored, looked after and kept at bay, but with never with complete certainty that one day it may not flare up again.

 

I am happy to say, that while I fit burnt's description for MM#2, after 3 months of NC, I am very happy at how my marriage is going! The doubts I described above did plague my mind early after recovery (as they didn't plague Liam), but I am in such a better place now. We are turning it round quickly, and if there was once a cancer, well - the chemo is working with 100% success!

 

Blame waterwoman for all the medical analogies, she started it on another thread, and I thought it was kind of cool!

 

I think this neatly encapsulates the different streams of thought. This stream posits the Relationship as the central issue - for #2 to be the higher risk, the focus is on the condition of the R. If #2 happens, the R is in a worse state than #1, therefore lower chance of recovery- if I'm getting it right.

 

For those of us who view it differently, it's because we are focusing not on the R as central, but on the WS. WS 1 is bored, intentional, calculating. S/he views others (the AP) instrumentally, and has little concern for the M or the BS. Is this someone we'd want to be with? WS 2, OTOH, is less intentional, less scheming, falls prey to emotions and gets caught up. We find that kind of person easier to relate to, easier to forgive.

 

Which raises the question - when we consider infidelity, do we focus on the WS as source, or the M?

[burnt]

Which raises the question - when we consider infidelity, do we focus on the WS as source, or the M?

 

And…that's a much more important question to ask. But it's also a tricky question to ask because unfortunately, from the point of view of the hurt BS it can easily sound like 'blaming' the betrayed partner.

 

I am most likely not going to be popular here to state my personal view that when an infidelity takes place, it means the marriage had failed long before the actual act of infidelity took place. Whether the evidence of that failure was visible or not. And I am also not going to be popular in saying that when a marriage fails, BOTH partners had something to contribute to that failure, NOT just one parson.

 

NOTE:

I am NOT saying when WS cheats, the BS is somehow responsible for the cheating.

I'm saying, long before the WS gets into cheating, both the WS and BS had marital issues that neither realized and/or addressed--as partners together.

 

And I add (to support my argument above),

that in so many cases when couples reconcile after affairs, they spend a lot of time reestablishing communications, and I have read variations of the following statements many times:

 

"we communicate more and are more open about how we feel".

 

Meaning the communication had been missing or lacking BEFORE the affair.