Terrible date! He wants to know why..

[AMJ]

I'd give him some feedback.

That you didn't like him putting up his hand to you mid conversation to applaud.

That the magazine flipping thing was disconcerting.

Thats you thought you made it very clear you didn't want to be kissed but he did it anyway.

 

These are things he might be able to work on.

 

To me, the wine bar choice is fine - not sure why you found that so odd or strange that he goes there a bit. I pass a little wine bar on my way home every day. There are often quite a few 40 and 50 somethings there. They have a right to get out of the house too!

 

It was clear that he goes to this place a lot. Which wouldn't be weird if they were excited to see him when he walked in...but they were more like- Oh, here's that guy who basically lives here, he's weird but he's our most loyal customer- type reaction. If they were like- oh hey! And super happy to see him, that would be less weird. But also even still, it's like meeting a guy's friends on a first date. On a first online dating date. I just felt like I was on display, here's some girl he met from the internet. And it would be different if I got the feeling that he had other places he likes to go to, or other hobbies in general..but I got the feeling that this particular place was the only place he really goes to.

 

It's not so much about his age and the drinking- I have nothing against people of all ages having a good time!

[Maggie4]

Tell him the truth: (I softened it for you)

"I went out with you because, everyone in my life- and my last therapist- has said I need to learn how to be attracted to different types of men...as in the opposite type of man I'm usually attracted to. So I'm going out with people hoping something will click. But overall I just had absolutely no connection to you."

I think this will clarify somethings for him and he'll know you two were never a match to begin with.

 

Btw, I don't know why I keep thinking you are around 20, maybe I read it wrong in another thread. Is there a big age gap between you and him?

[angel.eyes]

It's possible he wanted to sit within earshot of the owners, so that they could give him constructive feedback on the date afterwards. Just a thought.

 

At any rate, there is someone for everyone! Just because you didn't like his mannerisms and quirky conversation, doesn't mean someone else won't. John Nash was married. So was Brian Wilson. Both of their wives were initially attracted to them because of their frankness, even though it was completely socially inappropriate. These women found their strange and odd behavior endearing. Different strokes for different folks.

 

There's a hopelessly socially awkward guy in my hiking club, who seems to have no problem securing dates with new women who join, and turns these dates into girlfriends. He's 40 years old, 300 pounds (down from 450+ pounds because of walking then hiking...that's his pick-up line BTW), lives with his parents, doesn't work because he's disabled (not physically), has no other interests besides hiking and his weight loss, etc. (This is all stuff he shares with you in the first few minutes of conversation.) But bless his chatty little heart and his blunt honesty, he snags well-adjusted, attractive, sweet women as girlfriends every time a relationship ends. They find his social inappropriateness and bizarre comments sweet and endearing.

 

There are tons of other well-known examples. It's a disservice to someone to tell them to change their basic personality...especially when you have no intention of sticking around after the change.

 

Where you should have been honest, was when he mentioned wanting to see you again. You should have told him at the end of the date when it came up that you weren't interested. That's what I did when I had the worst . date . EVER a few years ago. Like you, I was "widening" my parameters and exploring different types. He was planning out our dates for the summer and fall even though it was crystal clear the first date was a total bust. I had to inform him that unfortunately there would be no date #2.

 

I simply explained that I didn't feel the same connection, and we weren't a match...which was true.

 

You either feel a connection with someone or you don't. Surely there have been times when a guy was perfect on paper, but you felt no connection? And probably times where you were surprised that you felt a connection to someone because they weren't really your "type."

 

It would have been presumptuous of me to assume that no woman would ever be attracted to him as is. Someone will be...and probably has by now. It just wasn't going to be me...or in this case, you.

Edited February 29, 2016 by angel.eyes

[joseb]

It was clear that he goes to this place a lot. Which wouldn't be weird if they were excited to see him when he walked in...but they were more like- Oh, here's that guy who basically lives here, he's weird but he's our most loyal customer- type reaction. If they were like- oh hey! And super happy to see him, that would be less weird. But also even still, it's like meeting a guy's friends on a first date. On a first online dating date. I just felt like I was on display, here's some girl he met from the internet. And it would be different if I got the feeling that he had other places he likes to go to, or other hobbies in general..but I got the feeling that this particular place was the only place he really goes to.

 

It's not so much about his age and the drinking- I have nothing against people of all ages having a good time!

 

OK, I read it as they were looking at you and thinking, wow bob has done well for himself! The more you write, the more I feel sorry for him, actually.

Some people are just not blessed with good social skills, and people just don't really like them much.

 

I had a date last week a little like this. She hardly looked me in the eye, quite fidgety, just not comfortable. It was hard work.

[Mrin]

Ok I read the first half of your original post and was like "wow she's a tough customer!" Then I read the second half.

 

I've given this some thought and I think it works out like this. He was a little disappointing physically but what really set you off was that he didn't seem to try to make a connection with you. The magazine thing. The sitting at the bar thing. The guitar player thing. I get the sense that if you guys had sat on the back and he had given you his full attention things might have turned out differently. Not that you would have had a love connection but you wouldn't be left with this "off" feeling. And your expectation of having his attention isn't unwarranted by any stretch.

 

If you want to give advice I would say something like:

 

1. First and foremost you didn't feel a spark. Nothing wrong with this. Happens all the time. And when you don't feel a spark that's it. It doesn't just mysteriously appear. Need to be clear on this so you don't give him false hope.

 

2. But since you are both actively dating - you want to give him some advice that he can use in the future. And that is how he needs to give his undivided attention to his date to try to foster a connection. He needs to hold open the space for the lady to relax into and you can only do that when the space is actively being held open. And then you can go into all the things he shouldn't have done.

 

I'd leave the scramble for your car, the hug and the kiss attempt out.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Mrin

[AMJ]

Ok I read the first half of your original post and was like "wow she's a tough customer!" Then I read the second half.

 

I've given this some thought and I think it works out like this. He was a little disappointing physically but what really set you off was that he didn't seem to try to make a connection with you. The magazine thing. The sitting at the bar thing. The guitar player thing. I get the sense that if you guys had sat on the back and he had given you his full attention things might have turned out differently. Not that you would have had a love connection but you wouldn't be left with this "off" feeling. And your expectation of having his attention isn't unwarranted by any stretch.

 

If you want to give advice I would say something like:

 

1. First and foremost you didn't feel a spark. Nothing wrong with this. Happens all the time. And when you don't feel a spark that's it. It doesn't just mysteriously appear. Need to be clear on this so you don't give him false hope.

 

2. But since you are both actively dating - you want to give him some advice that he can use in the future. And that is how he needs to give his undivided attention to his date to try to foster a connection. He needs to hold open the space for the lady to relax into and you can only do that when the space is actively being held open. And then you can go into all the things he shouldn't have done.

 

I'd leave the scramble for your car, the hug and the kiss attempt out.

 

Ha, I am a tough customer!

 

I should have waited to send my response to him..that was well said. Except, I kinda get the feeling that he may not fully understand what you mean by giving the space to the woman...he's the type of person who needs really concrete, specific examples. I had to mention the kiss thing. If nothing else, he needs to cut that out. That could really freak out the wrong person, I'm able to laugh it off mostly, but I know plenty of women who would have turned some pepper spray on him. And learning the signals to give someone a kiss..that's pretty important.

 

I know, I do feel bad for him too. I wish I knew someone to set him up with.

[smackie9]

Hey at least he is trying, and with this experience, and with the help of your response he will learn something from it. I have a feeling he kinda knew some of the mistakes he had made. He'll be fine.

[Buddhist]

So the thing is, he's a nice guy. I don't want to be mean, and have no reason to be mean. How do I respond? Which of this feedback is constructive, and which is too harsh?

 

Conversational stuff is feedback, your thoughts about his social life and looks is best left alone. As someone who struggled with poor social skills for a long time I would have appreciated someone giving me the honest truth about that.

 

From the retelling of your story I think it's the not understanding social cues which was the biggest problem. When people get this wrong it creates all sorts of negative connotations for them. It could be as simple as he wasn't well socialised or has aspergers. In which case that kind of feedback would be appreciated as long as it's delivered in a straight forward way and without judgements. I never could read between the lines when people tried to hint at this and also stuff like social lying did my head in for a long time. I would take people at their word when they were speaking the polite code that everyone except me got the drift of. This guy sounds like he would not get the drift unless you spelled it out.

 

It honestly sounds like he just doesn't get social etiquette.

[Chris2016]

For Chris's question about being a local at the wine bar. I mean...it's definitely a good idea to take a woman somewhere you feel comfortable, yes. But you also want HER to feel comfortable. When I walked in, he introduced me to the four people at this tiny bar by name, so it felt like I was also meeting his friends. No one wants to meet your friends on a blind first date. This is not the first time a guy has done this to me. It's just awkward.

 

However, I could tell right away that they weren't really friends, he was just a really loyal customer. So it was a little bit awkward. If we had sat at one of the tables farther away, we would have had more privacy. ...

 

Interesting to get this insight.

 

Many years ago when I took out my co-worker (who liked me), I wanted to take her to a sports bar/casino. It would have been our 2nd date.

 

This was my friends and I usual, go to place, Friday after work.

 

I knew the menu. Food and drinks were cheap. Friday was packed. Should be a great atmosphere!

 

I thought, I'd be ahead of the game. I'd be comfortable, hence she'd be comfortable.

 

So, interesting to read that perhaps that may not have been a good location. I think though, since she liked me, it probably wouldn't have mattered?? I dunno.

 

In the end, she suggested a more upscale pricier place. In hindsight, and after reading this thread, I think this was a better place. We sat on an outdoor patio; no loud music; just her and I one-on-one.

 

She actually knew the menu, and made some suggestions. It was my first time there.

[Popsicle]

Poor guy.

 

Popsicle

[Saracena]

 

He then gives me a hug, I'm pretty sure I'd put my arms in front of me to block him, not kidding, he says "I really want to kiss you" I turn my head away, and definitely had my arms out in front of me at this point to keep him away...and he kisses me anyway. I jump into my car, and while I'm shutting the door he's yelling "I really like you!" .

 

Most of what you've written earlier could be put down to awkwardness or nerves but this would be a huge red flag. I remember a guy I'd had a few casual dates with but no longer wished to see (and clearly told ) did this to me (hugging me very close and kissing me) when we next met out, while I was did all in my power to push him away but he basically overpowered me! Awful experience. I had absolutely no time for him after that. I'd certainly state this to your date ( in no uncertain terms) that pushing boundaries is a HUGE no no. No sugarcoating!

[Toodaloo]

Sorry but reading this all I could think was "I am so glad I am not the only one who meets guys like this..."

 

Chin up chook.

 

I would give him a bit of gentle advice. Doesn't sound like he has very good manners to me...

[road]

Tell him the truth: (I softened it for you)

"I went out with you because, everyone in my life- and my last therapist- has said I need to learn how to be attracted to different types of men...as in the opposite type of man I'm usually attracted to. So I'm going out with people hoping something will click. But overall I just had absolutely no connection to you."

I think this will clarify somethings for him and he'll know you two were never a match to begin with.

 

Btw, I don't know why I keep thinking you are around 20, maybe I read it wrong in another thread. Is there a big age gap between you and him?

 

 

That is a great start but it does not give him any feedback. Starting that way the OP will make it clear that she is not attracted to him in any way being direct while not being cruel then use that as a lead in to all the miss steps that he made.

[SSJROMANCE]

Just say "you're a nice guy but not my type - sorry" and leave it at that. You never know if this dude is psycho or not and may react badly to anything else. Not worth the risk and is not your job to tell him what is wrong with him. Besides what is wrong for you might be right for someone else. Good luck.

[road]

Interesting to get this insight.

 

Many years ago when I took out my co-worker (who liked me), I wanted to take her to a sports bar/casino. It would have been our 2nd date.

 

This was my friends and I usual, go to place, Friday after work.

 

I knew the menu. Food and drinks were cheap. Friday was packed. Should be a great atmosphere!

 

I thought, I'd be ahead of the game. I'd be comfortable, hence she'd be comfortable.

 

So, interesting to read that perhaps that may not have been a good location. I think though, since she liked me, it probably wouldn't have mattered?? I dunno.

 

In the end, she suggested a more upscale pricier place. In hindsight, and after reading this thread, I think this was a better place. We sat on an outdoor patio; no loud music; just her and I one-on-one.

 

She actually knew the menu, and made some suggestions. It was my first time there.

 

 

Shows you know nothin' abou' no datin'

 

 

Shows you're smart enough to take the hints from your date.

Edited February 29, 2016 by road

[Maggie4]

That is a great start but it does not give him any feedback. Starting that way the OP will make it clear that she is not attracted to him in any way being direct while not being cruel then use that as a lead in to all the miss steps that he made.

 

But if she tells him for example, she felt awkward sitting at the bar, he might ask for another date somewhere else. She doesn't want that. Some other things were little nuances, everyone has them. Problem is this date never should have happened. My mistake, the OP is 33 not 20. But still, 12 years age difference is significant. Maybe if they were the same age, and she wanted it to work out, she would have said let's sit somewhere else, and fought off the kiss more successfully. Of course 45 single man wants 33 younger woman. But he looked older than she expected. Huge mismatch. Not sure what exactly he can learn from it, use more recent photo?

[truth_seeker]

My mistake, the OP is 33 not 20. But still, 12 years age difference is significant. Maybe if they were the same age, and she wanted it to work out, she would have said let's sit somewhere else, and fought off the kiss more successfully. Of course 45 single man wants 33 younger woman. But he looked older than she expected. Huge mismatch. Not sure what exactly he can learn from it, use more recent photo?

 

I don't think the age gap is the issue here. The issue is there was no chemistry and she wasn't attracted to him.

[smackie9]

I know what kind of guy she is talking about....they don't understand personal space, can act impulsively, and they repels people like bug spray.

[Jabron1]

The very act of him asking for reasons why you don't like him is the reason why women won't like him. This guy's whole approach to dating is arse backwards.

 

Send him this text:

 

'Man up'.

[Imajerk17]

I see you already responded to this guy AMJ, so at this point this is more of a comment on the general topic.

 

It is very hard for you, or specifically, someone in your situation to give feedback, that would actually be helpful. Part of it is that if you get to the heart of the matter, you risk emotionally crushing the guy. Another part of it is, as angel.eyes said, plenty of eccentric guys find love. Maybe the answer is for him to find someone who gets his weirdness, instead of trying to smooth over the rougher edges of his personality.

 

If I were his dating coach though, I could be a lot more truthful. I'd tell him the fundamental problem: Women don't like to date guys who give the impression of being beaten-down by life. Women often date eccentric guys, and they sometimes date guys who don't have money, but few attractive women in their 30s want to date a beaten-down guy.

 

That was precisely the impression that this guy gave off though. That he seemed to have nothing going on in his life besides work and hanging out in a bar where he didn't even seem to be liked that much, and well, there you go. The awkward social skills only added to that impression. I absolutely can see why you wouldn't have felt attraction for someone like that. It's hard for someone in your position to say that feedback to this guy without it coming across really harsh, but that us the heart of the matter, am I wrong.

 

I think you did the right, compassionate, thing by getting back to him and pointing out how the way he handled the date made things awkward--ESPECIALLY going for the kiss at the end when it was clear you weren't into it. Hopefully that gives him enough to work with.

 

Meanwhile, I don't know what type of guy you are usually attracted to, but I find that advice by your therapist to be strange. Just because your type in the past hasn't worked for you doesn't mean that someone who is clearly NOT that type will work for you. As long as you aren't drawn to men by their issues or their unavailability, there's nothing wrong with dating only guys you feel there is a good chance of attraction and connection. I mean, how is you going on dates with "nice guys" who come across as the guy who is the subject of this thread, where you feel no attraction whatsoever, and then end up feeling bad for having to reject them after, good for ANYONE?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Imajerk17

[road]

But if she tells him for example, she felt awkward sitting at the bar, he might ask for another date somewhere else. She doesn't want that. Some other things were little nuances, everyone has them. Problem is this date never should have happened. My mistake, the OP is 33 not 20. But still, 12 years age difference is significant. Maybe if they were the same age, and she wanted it to work out, she would have said let's sit somewhere else, and fought off the kiss more successfully. Of course 45 single man wants 33 younger woman. But he looked older than she expected. Huge mismatch. Not sure what exactly he can learn from it, use more recent photo?

 

 

No. Re-read your other post. You made showed how to make it clear on how she is to tell him there is never going to be a 2nd date. Direct but not cruel.

 

 

That is not feed back He wanted feedback. You gave her the way to let him down then set up for her to go directly into his lesson.

 

 

If at the end of the lesson he tries again to ask him. See this is your biggest problem the way a women says do not kiss me and you kissing her is wrong, well when she says no more dates means it is not ok to ask her out again.

 

 

He may take the lesson and learn he may not absorb anything.

 

 

At least he got some help.

 

 

I mean he could be using the give me feedback to try for another date. Then be blunt.

[road]

The very act of him asking for reasons why you don't like him is the reason why women won't like him. This guy's whole approach to dating is arse backwards.

 

Send him this text:

 

'Man up'.

 

 

Listen you Jabronie, he is manning up. The problem is he doesn't know how to do it the right way.

[rester]

It seems like a lot of the social awkwardness may have come from him being in a place he's a regular at. Maybe you could tell him that you found his choice of venue, a place he is a regular at, to be uncomfortable and distracting, and that maybe he could choose a more neutral location for future dates with other women.

[road]

No. Re-read your other post. You made it clear on how she is to tell him there is never going to be a 2nd date. Direct but not cruel.

 

 

That is not feed back He wanted feedback. You gave her the way to let him down then set up for her to go directly into his lesson.

 

 

If at the end of the lesson he tries again to ask him. See this is your biggest problem the way a women says do not kiss me and you kissing her is wrong, well when she says no more dates means it is not ok to ask her out again.

 

 

He may take the lesson and learn he may not absorb anything.

 

 

At least he got some help.

 

 

I mean he could be using the give me feedback to try for another date. Then be blunt.

 

 

 

 

Bad grammar and could not edit the beginning

[Miss Peach]

I like to be really direct with guys I date. I am a bit reserved so I prefer to be really open to where I am with guys.

 

Having said that, I believe strongly in not creating drama. I believe you can do both - be direct and not stir up drama. The thing is, even though it's not appealing to you, these things might be to someone else. He needs to find that someone else. I think using neutral phrases like 'it's not a match' or 'I know it might not make much sense and I barely know you but it makes sense to me' are good ways to deflect these types of guys.

 

If you feel he REALLY was looking for feedback don't criticize his personality just because YOU didn't like it. Pick out the top one of two universal things that might help him. Or just be honest and tell him how his behavior made you feel. You can't argue with feelings using logic. Long story short, he didn't make you feel comfortable around him. I'm a big believer that the guy needs to make the woman comfortable to create a good date. That might be a good lesson for him to take away without insulting or demeaning him.