joseb Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Thinking more about things... J and I have talked and texted a lot. During this time she mentioned her ex bf a few times, and also that dating is "once a week or fortnight" thing. "that's plenty" Yet, one day after our first date, she asks me to go walking with her...and honestly that was a great day...we chatted for hours, although she did go on about her ex again... The thing is, I was getting the feeling she was using me as a friend, not as a future partner...(although we did talk that not all dates need to be romantic, we should be friends too). She did hug me after too. We also agreed on a diner date, AND dancing, all in the same week, both of these are "romantic" activities. Now she's asked me to help again in a non-dating, non romantic setting. Again, more like a friend... I will go, but I hope I'm not being friend-zoned here... J sounds like she is just using you for companionship, to do things for her, etc. That may have been her plan all along, or maybe it's evolved like this because you haven't made a move sooner. 1
joseb Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 if I refuse, I basically not supporting her even at this early stage. By going along, I feel I can show her how a good man helps his partner... ... That's 5 nights in a week! You are not her partner. 5 nights is too much IMHO. I'm always VERY wary of women with stories of really bad exes. Of course there is probably at least some truth to it, but generally I've found it a massive red flag. 2
Author yxalitis Posted March 1, 2016 Author Posted March 1, 2016 J sounds like she is just using you for companionship, to do things for her, etc. That may have been her plan all along, or maybe it's evolved like this because you haven't made a move sooner. She made it VERY clear I had to take it slow... I agree it sounds like a shift towards friend zone..and I'm trying to steer it back. I texted her: "I am happy to help you. I think this person has made life difficult for you. I am very fond of you...I see a real possible future together. I know you can put this in your past and move forward with me." And: "Let me show you how a man should treat a special woman like you" After tonight's assistance, I am going to seek assurances that romance is definitely on the cards. I have enough time to still see G after the inspection if I'm not getting the right vibe from J.
Leigh 87 Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 I don't understand. I've dated a lot of men and never had this issue. There was always a guy that just captured my interest the most. I waited for amazing chemistry and sparks that don't come about with just anyone. I can't fathom looking back at how I met my bf and telling my friends " well I was dating two wonderful people at the time and I couldn't figure out who I felt more for" How can you not recognize amazing stand out chemistry? I am really curious. I multi dated. Although I had chemistry with both men it was obvious which one I wanted more. And we both had amazing chemistry. Me and the two guys.
Author yxalitis Posted March 1, 2016 Author Posted March 1, 2016 I don't understand. I've dated a lot of men and never had this issue. There was always a guy that just captured my interest the most. I waited for amazing chemistry and sparks that don't come about with just anyone. I can't fathom looking back at how I met my bf and telling my friends " well I was dating two wonderful people at the time and I couldn't figure out who I felt more for" How can you not recognize amazing stand out chemistry? I am really curious. I multi dated. Although I had chemistry with both men it was obvious which one I wanted more. And we both had amazing chemistry. Me and the two guys. Yes, but I need to be sure that the feeling is mutual... I like both for different reasons, enough to want to think either could be successful, doesn't matter how amazing it all seems in the first few weeks, a relationship will last or fail depending on many complicated factors that certainly aren't all obvious at first. I need to see how things pan out this week with J... If I'm not firmly out of friend zone into a romantic relationship I will let her go.
Leigh 87 Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 So you still hold out for something special? Or do you more or less just give everyone a shot that seem normal and you enjoy hanging out with and have slme chemistry with? Do you understand what I mean? Have you ever met women where you immediately felt like it could be something special? A special chemistry you don't just get very often?! I can't fathom how I would need to pick; all the times that I've been equally into two people, there was always that one man that would stand out. It was never equal standings. Although you do tend to have a LOT more options when you are content with good chemistry without holding out for fireworks. When I multi dated and did as you are doing I had so many options and it was a matter of who was into me the most lol.
Author yxalitis Posted March 1, 2016 Author Posted March 1, 2016 (edited) So you still hold out for something special? Or do you more or less just give everyone a shot that seem normal and you enjoy hanging out with and have slme chemistry with? Do you understand what I mean? Have you ever met women where you immediately felt like it could be something special? A special chemistry you don't just get very often?! I can't fathom how I would need to pick; all the times that I've been equally into two people, there was always that one man that would stand out. It was never equal standings. Although you do tend to have a LOT more options when you are content with good chemistry without holding out for fireworks. When I multi dated and did as you are doing I had so many options and it was a matter of who was into me the most lol. I'm not that lost in romance to think that the feelings of instant attraction and chemistry you describe actually relate to how good a relationship will be with that person. I need to at least feel attracted to them emotionally, physically, and intellectually, I feel that in different ratios with both ladies. G is CLEARLY more into me that J, but I'm not choosing based on their attraction to me... J is more...interesting, in a non sexual way. Maybe my friends are right, I'll always choose the one who has more drama in their life so I can "rescue" them. Show me a woman who has her whole life sorted out, thanks all the same, and I'll struggle to find interest. Good looks, money, intelligence or whatever. Maybe I should focus on understanding WHY that is... But right now, J is far more interesting to me... And heck, it's only a week more and I'll know. Edited March 1, 2016 by yxalitis
joseb Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 "Let me show you how a man should treat a special woman like you" Careful, sounds like a bit of pedestal putting on your side. I do sense a bit of rescuing tendencies on your part. How about lowering your interest (and investment) in J for now - see if she is still keen to see you when you stop helping her with everything. 1
Author yxalitis Posted March 1, 2016 Author Posted March 1, 2016 Careful, sounds like a bit of pedestal putting on your side. I do sense a bit of rescuing tendencies on your part. How about lowering your interest (and investment) in J for now - see if she is still keen to see you when you stop helping her with everything. To be fair, she's only asked me this one thing...the rest are dates (Salsa dancing, dinner), that she readily agreed to...despite her earlier comments around once a week being sufficient. And she did call me to come around to walk with her, which is clearly just to spend time to get to know me HOWEVER, I specifically used an over the top remark to see if she would respond specifically to it... She didn't. In fact her replies have only been about the inspection and her ex turning up to help her, even when she specifically told him not to...and not in reply addressing my attempts to talk about us. You see, i'm such a hopeless optimist that I'm putting that down to her being stressed about the ex... Look, I'm just dating her, if after this week she's still too distant, I'll let her know I need more assurance that this isn't more than friendship.
edgygirl Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 Fascinating to read how guys look at the initial phases... This wouldn't make much sense. What happens if he chooses incorrectly and the one he chooses gives him the "just friends" line. He will have burned the bridge with the other woman for nothing. While I haven't been in this specific situation while multi-dating, I always cut ties with the other women once I've slept with one of them. I agree. But sometimes (rare, but it happens) the one I sleep with has been very incompatible sexually, so she'll be the one I cut ties with, and then I can focus on the other. This is my thinking too, sex is very important to me. You simply cannot tell what someone is like in bed based on any of their personal attributes, I've had porn star experiences from girls I thought would be precious and insecure, and awful sex from open and forward woman.
Author yxalitis Posted March 1, 2016 Author Posted March 1, 2016 Fascinating to read how guys look at the initial phases... That's why this forum is good...seeing how the other half think in safe and (relative) anonymity.
Jabron1 Posted March 1, 2016 Posted March 1, 2016 You have made a lot of mistakes with 'J'. 1. You have allowed her to use you as an outlet for venting about her ex 2. You haven't escalated physically 3. You have started planning for a future with her. This is basically offering her the concept of a relationship. Your focus should be on physical escalation; hers should be on relationship escalation. 4. You have been far too available 5. You are trying to qualify that you are a 'good guy' to her, and nothing like her 'jerk' ex. This is white knight game 6. You have completely lost the frame by allowing yourself to be drawn into her world, her problems, and now she's trying to get you doing errands. I completely disagree with what Smackie said earlier. The problem isn't that you have to make a quick decision regarding monogamy - that defeats the object of multi-dating. It's that, at some point, you started to develop a sniper mentality for this 'J' woman, when you should have continued to approach more women and explore more options. From what I've read, I see no reason for you to make such an effort with J. I don't see what she's done to earn your devotion. Multi-dating is not about settling. It's about exploring your options. It's like the difference between a man that has settled down in the same town for his whole life, versus the man that first traveled the world before choosing to reside in the place that suits him best.
Author yxalitis Posted March 1, 2016 Author Posted March 1, 2016 You have made a lot of mistakes with 'J'. 1. You have allowed her to use you as an outlet for venting about her ex 2. You haven't escalated physically 3. You have started planning for a future with her. This is basically offering her the concept of a relationship. Your focus should be on physical escalation; hers should be on relationship escalation. 4. You have been far too available 5. You are trying to qualify that you are a 'good guy' to her, and nothing like her 'jerk' ex. This is white knight game 6. You have completely lost the frame by allowing yourself to be drawn into her world, her problems, and now she's trying to get you doing errands. I completely disagree with what Smackie said earlier. The problem isn't that you have to make a quick decision regarding monogamy - that defeats the object of multi-dating. It's that, at some point, you started to develop a sniper mentality for this 'J' woman, when you should have continued to approach more women and explore more options. From what I've read, I see no reason for you to make such an effort with J. I don't see what she's done to earn your devotion. Multi-dating is not about settling. It's about exploring your options. It's like the difference between a man that has settled down in the same town for his whole life, versus the man that first traveled the world before choosing to reside in the place that suits him best. 1. Agree, but I know why. 2. I've had one date, one walk..when exactly would you suggest I escalate with someone who is clearly physically cautious? 3. No, I'm merely choosing to date her and see where it goes...isn't that what dating is for? 4. I disagree with this whole concept of "too available" This reeks of manipulation and game playing...I AM free, so if she asks me, you want me to pretend to be busy so she has to guess why..etc etc...I don't do that...and let me tell you, I'[m damn glad I helped her last night. 5. Actually, I am just being me..I AM a good guy. 6. For GOD's sake, she asked me for help ONCE in case her BF turned up...You make out like I'm doing her shopping and cleaning her house. I am NOT settling, J is an amazing, intelligent, beautiful woman, we get along well, we can talk, laugh, share... She hasn't earned my devotion, I've simply seen what an amazing person she is...and want to get to know her better. UPDATE: OK, so I did go and help her, and after we finished we had a long talk over coffee. She did tell me something important. I won't repeat it here, even though this is an anonymous site, I'll still avoid the risk of it leaking out. Suffice to say I know WHY she is so insecure and physically uncomfortable. The fact that she could tell me, trust me, was a good sign. I told her what I needed from her, and she confirmed it was a mutual attraction. I am extremely happy with how things have turned out so far, the next two dates are 100% romantic dating, and I will let G go... This is why it is important not to play dating games, there are no rules for human interaction, every person is an individual who needs a different approach, an understanding of who THEY are. How many people have lost a great partner because they didn't bother to understand who THEY were, and ticked them off the list because some arbitrary rule was broken, or some dating best practice wasn't followed. In fact I'm going to post about that now... 2
Jabron1 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 This is why it is important not to play dating games, there are no rules for human interaction, every person is an individual who needs a different approach, an understanding of who THEY are. You don't need to tell me that . I'm seeing three women with completely different personalities that all require a completely different approach. It's like dating 101. You are playing a game - pretending that you aren't is counterproductive. You are playing 'white knight', or 'therapist' game. You think that solving her problems is the way to receive her intimacy. You haven't made any physical moves; everything you are doing is focused on the psychological. 1. Agree, but I know why. 2. I've had one date, one walk..when exactly would you suggest I escalate with someone who is clearly physically cautious? 3. No, I'm merely choosing to date her and see where it goes...isn't that what dating is for? 4. I disagree with this whole concept of "too available" This reeks of manipulation and game playing...I AM free, so if she asks me, you want me to pretend to be busy so she has to guess why..etc etc...I don't do that...and let me tell you, I'[m damn glad I helped her last night. 5. Actually, I am just being me..I AM a good guy. 6. For GOD's sake, she asked me for help ONCE in case her BF turned up...You make out like I'm doing her shopping and cleaning her house. I know that I'm telling you things that you probably don't want to hear. It seems that you have this woman on a pedestal, and I'm kicking it out from under her. But, sometimes the advice we don't like is the advice we need. To counter your points: 1. You mean that you have a ready-made rationalisation 2. One date is plenty of time to (at least try and) kiss a girl. You're making excuses. 3. Please read your own posts back again. It sounds like you are her shrink, not her date. 4. Too much, too soon will only increase your sniper mentality. It's not playing games; you really should have other things to prioritise over her. 5. Aren't we all? The point is that you are trying to prove that you're a good guy as a way to receive a woman's intimacy. Negotiated desire is never as good as the real thing. 6. If you think that doing favours for a woman that you barely know and haven't been intimate with is a good idea, then have at it. We'll have to disagree. From what you've told us so far, I don't think that focusing all of your time, energy, and other resources on J is a good idea. I think that it is settling, and that you can do a lot better. Just my take.
AMJ Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 From what I've read, I see no reason for you to make such an effort with J. I don't see what she's done to earn your devotion. . What is it women need to do to earn a guy's devotion by date 1 or 2? 3
Rko28 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 If you like either of them that much then you probably wouldnt be asking the question. If you liked number 1 that much then you wouldnt go on a date with someone else after 3 dates If you liked number 2 that much you wouldnt have gone back to number 1.
Shining One Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 What is it women need to do to earn a guy's devotion by date 1 or 2?Every man is going to answer this differently and they're also going to have different time frames. While I don't necessarily need this by the end of the second date, I appreciate women demonstrating what they intend to bring to the table in a relationship. Here are some personal examples: Had a great first date with a Jamaican woman. We talked about food/cooking. I mentioned how much I liked jerk and would like to know how to make it. Our second date involved her inviting me to her sister's house for a party where they showed me how to make jerk from scratch. It was an amazing home-cooked meal.I was taking my date home after a second date. There was a lightning storm, but no rain. She asked me to stop and she took a bunch of pictures. A little over a week later, she presented me with a painting she made from one of the photos. It's still hanging in my living room.I mentioned I liked banana bread on a second date. Two days later, she gave me a huge tray of banana bread she made from scratch.Clearly, these were exceptional women and I don't require this sort of gesture early. However, things like this put them far ahead of the competition. 1
phillyisfun Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 I'm seeing three women with completely different personalities that all require a completely different approach. And of course they all know each other, or this would just be cheating...
Jabron1 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 And of course they all know each other, or this would just be cheating... I do hope you're joking... One of those women has more suitors than I have the fingers to count them. I suppose she is 'cheating' on me? None of these women are my girlfriend - hell, one of them is married and in an 'open relationship'. One of them is looking like girlfriend material, but it's way too soon to judge that as we've only been out twice.
Jabron1 Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 What is it women need to do to earn a guy's devotion by date 1 or 2? But that's my point. It's too soon. Let's be honest. The OP is struggling to control his attraction to 'J'. If OP wasn't interested in her sexually, there would be no way that he'd take the time to try and solve her problems. He believes that in doing so, he will earn her intimacy. Men are logical creatures. Many guys think the route to intimacy can be deduced logically. Woman has problem + man solves problems = earned intimacy. It's nice-guy game. And, it often backfires on blokes sooner or later. 1
AMJ Posted March 2, 2016 Posted March 2, 2016 But that's my point. It's too soon. Let's be honest. The OP is struggling to control his attraction to 'J'. If OP wasn't interested in her sexually, there would be no way that he'd take the time to try and solve her problems. He believes that in doing so, he will earn her intimacy. Men are logical creatures. Many guys think the route to intimacy can be deduced logically. Woman has problem + man solves problems = earned intimacy. It's nice-guy game. And, it often backfires on blokes sooner or later. Is the problem not that nice guys are nice, but they go for bad girls? That he's attracted to women who need their problems to be fixed, women who manipulate to get what they want? I agree with what you're saying, but...I also don't really believe in rules when it comes to relationships. Every happy couple I know broke at least a few rules along the way. I don't think OP needs to stop being a nice guy, he just needs to find a woman who will appreciate it. Which means he needs to start thinking with his big head, not his little one.
Author yxalitis Posted March 3, 2016 Author Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) I'd better post what I think, so the armchair psychologists don't drown me out. We went Salsa dancing last night, and unfortunately it wasn't what either of us anticipated. I expected that she and I would learn together, but they put all the men in a circle facing out, and the girls (Twice ans many, by the way), had to select a man to partner. Those who missed out had to stand in between two other girls. Then the outer circle of woman rotated every few minutes so you ended up dancing for a few minutes with 10 - 15 different girls. OK, that's great if I was 1. Under 30, which the rest of the group appeared to be 2. Single We did have fun though, just not the fun I was expecting. OK I'll list the attributes of both woman as I see them: J Yes, she is physically detached, a kiss is out of the question, even resting my hand on her knee results in it being quickly pushed away...I do see that. But I know why! let's just say not all her physical activity with her ex was consensual...and leave it at that. OK, get it? I am NOT pushing for physical under these circumstances... She is driven, intelligent, articulate, attractive, sexy. Her children are high achievers, and compassionate...since she raised them on her own, this speaks volumes about her qualities. I am moving house soon, and asked her for help finding a cheaper removalist, she jumped onto that, not just giving me numbers to call, but doing the negotiations and arriving at better prices. G G is just plain fun, laughs easily, and is happy with physical intimacy, kissed very passionately on the second date. It wouldn't surprise me if we ended up in bed together soon. However, she doesn't strike me as very intelligent. She will spend ages showing me pictures of her in various costumes (professional studio photography), and asking me if I like her in each... Then she'll show me other photos of her, and again ask about each dress: "Do you like this dress, this one, this one, which is best?" I thought the photo viewing was just a phase at the beginning to get over her awkwardness, but she was doing it again last time we met, indeed, she was showing me the same photos! She is attractive, tall, fun to be with, sexy. But I would struggle to find interest over the long term if I can't get her to talk...I need to see that she is bright! We went to see Hail Caesar, and that was way beyond her ability to understand. I don't need her to be a genius, but I need to be able to converse with her. Part of this is her English, which will get better over time, but I can't ignore this factor. She knows I am moving, and started sending me numbers to call to get a better price, none are cheaper than my first quote; J's efforts are cheaper still. Today I'm seeing G, and I will strive to get her to talk... If she can't... I'll definitely have a talk to her. I note she is also still active on Oasis... Tomorrow is the big romantic date with J, you see, we haven't really had that real romantic moment yet: drinks and bowling, a walk, helping her at work, Salsa dancing... At the end of this date, I will try and move the relationship to the next level. I will kiss her. If she doesn't kiss me back, a real one, not just a peck... I'll definitely have a talk to her. I note she is also still active on Oasis... It may well be that neither girl works out. Edited March 3, 2016 by yxalitis
Author yxalitis Posted March 3, 2016 Author Posted March 3, 2016 (edited) OK, so update time Last night I went out with G again... I wanted to see that there was something more substantial with her...so I picked her up, went on a picnic again, and ate a quarter chicken and salad. This time we did talk about more things, she was talking about her work in China, real estate investment (...which seems to be the job of ALL Chinese in Australia, apart from accountants!) She's not stupid, quite the successful business woman, so may just be a matter of her English skills. She is also getting very close to me... She said that her friend doesn't have a boyfriend, but that she does. I stopped her.."Am I your boyfriend" She said "we'll see" and then suggested that I can't kiss anyone else now... She is also open to talk about sex...she is very forward like that, but she won't go all the way until "I am sure, she is sure, when you love me and I love you" But she is quite happy to tease me, kiss, wrap her legs around me, move suggestively...yeah, exactly, she laughs all the time while doing this, she's a cocktease, and admits it. She said that if we slept together, she couldn't stop herself, we'd "do it all night" and the way she moves against me while clothed...yeah, I cna imagine that too. I took her home, and in the doorway she turned around, pushed herself back against me, reached down to rub me through my pants, while inviting me to do the same to her...that was hot. So, she's using her sexuality to lure me, but denying any more until we have established a more emotional aspect to the relationship... I also noticed that she's more physically attractive than I first noticed, she certainly doesn't look 46, she looks YOUNGER than J who is 41. I mentioned that i'm getting a flatmate, when i said it would be a female, she got a little jealous, and questioned me on that for a while.. So there's that... Then there's J. She had texted me while I was out with G, and knowing she prefers talking, I called her back... She answered on the first rung very happy I called. She was a little drunk, not too bad, she was having a glass or two of wine after work. We chatted amiably for a while, I heard her yawn and suggested that I might let her go as she was tired... No, she wasn't going to let me go..."I'm not tired, I want to talk to you more" She was also a little flirty, the first time she's been like that, telling me that she had her dolphin toy in between her legs, then saying"oops, now you're thinking about that!" She is very excited about our first "real" date tonight, we talked for nearly an hour before my tiredness won me over, and I suggested I should be going to bed... She finished off with another suggestive remark about her dolphin, and then giggled that she was naughty to say that... That flirtiness was quite surprising, and I'm pleased, that she is opening up a little. She wan't THAT drunk... She doesn't have any problem with my female flatmate. Oh my! Now both woman are becoming more attracted to me, and more attractive to me... This isn't fair...how do i decide...? If I get a passionate kiss from J tonight...I'll be more tempted to go with her...but this isn't easy...both are such amazing ladies in different ways. G is more fun, laughs all the time, but is also a little silly, and there's that language problem, I want to be able to share things with her...good movies, tv shows etc... J is more intelligent, driven, but also serious. She is not very outgoing, in public she is like a little mouse, preferring to be alone with me, not mingling with dozens of others. She was very uncomfortable at Salsa dancing. But when we ARE alone, she's wonderful, confident, and of course we can TALK. Umm...any advice?? Edited March 3, 2016 by yxalitis
Rejected Rosebud Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 [*]Had a great first date with a Jamaican woman. We talked about food/cooking. I mentioned how much I liked jerk and would like to know how to make it. Our second date involved her inviting me to her sister's house for a party where they showed me how to make jerk from scratch. It was an amazing home-cooked meal. That sounds really nice! [*]I was taking my date home after a second date. There was a lightning storm, but no rain. She asked me to stop and she took a bunch of pictures. A little over a week later, she presented me with a painting she made from one of the photos. It's still hanging in my living room. [*]I mentioned I liked banana bread on a second date. Two days later, she gave me a huge tray of banana bread she made from scratch. Clearly, these were exceptional women and I don't require this sort of gesture early. However, things like this put them far ahead of the competition. Those two things ... those are things I would only do for a guy I was in a relationship with, not somebody I'd been on 2 dates with. I also wouldn't expect a guy I'd been on 2 dates with to paint me a picture or bake for me.
sweet honeydew Posted March 4, 2016 Posted March 4, 2016 I read this thread with interest because I am an Asian woman. From what I read, I gather that you are more attracted to J. I would suggest: 1) back off on the physical part with both, and continue to get to know each woman. Really, you know little about them. G already "suggested that you can't kiss anyone else now...". I think there's a cultural issue here. You think you are not making a commitment, but hey, kissing is in Asian's eyes. You just don't go around and kiss multiple people, ok? It is really important to know how a person deal with frustration which can only be revealed when the opportunities arise. 2)quit seeing one of them now and take a chance. You will be making your best guess on who will make the best partner for you. To do that, It is very important to know what is important to you and how important the attributes are. For example, social awkwardness how important is that to your life? For me, it comes down to 3C: Chemistry, Compatibility, Communication. When I can't decide who to date (1st date), I secretly "grade" them on each then compare total score. The highest score wins!! :-)) Problem solved. 1
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