Neither of us have our own place!

[Tom Collins]

So what are we supposed to do once we start 'officially' dating? She is staying with parent and so am I, because I recently split from long term partner and left her in the house with the kids I can't have a new girl coming back there while the mother of my children is living there. Her circumstances mean she also is being put up by a parent and she has all her kids staying there with her too.

 

I can't currently afford to rent anywhere because the deposits and rent up front is too high and social housing takes forever just to get onto their waiting lists

 

How are we supposed to spend time together? She had her own place recently but like I said circumstances mean she has to stay with her mother again. She keeps telling me she wants to sleep with me and other intimate things but how are we supposed to do it?

[testmeasure]

Wow. I've had periods in my past where I was either not financially self sufficient or not independent. In those situations, I could not imagine dating. I pictured the opposite. Any woman that could accept me as not self sufficient or independent would be accepting me for the opposite of what I am, which is both of those. It might work out for a time, but neither of us would respect each other. So when I was ever in a situation of not being financially self sufficient or independent, I focused on fixing that as the quickest path to any future where there could even be the possibility of healthy dating.

 

If your situation is broken, focus on fixing your situation first. Then, only pay attention to women who are attracted to you in an unbroken state. It's the only way to differentiate mutual respect from mutual desperation. Respect is a foundation. Desperation is quicksand. Fix yourself first, earn the respect and then go get it.

 

My advice is probably somehow totally out dated by texting where every one gets confused about what the other person means, yet no one can just pick up the phone and talk. I'll stop because I'm not sure if I'm just ranting about an older set of values or possibly helping with a different perspective.

[Tom Collins]

Wow. I've had periods in my past where I was either not financially self sufficient or not independent. In those situations, I could not imagine dating. I pictured the opposite. Any woman that could accept me as not self sufficient or independent would be accepting me for the opposite of what I am, which is both of those. It might work out for a time, but neither of us would respect each other. So when I was ever in a situation of not being financially self sufficient or independent, I focused on fixing that as the quickest path to any future where there could even be the possibility of healthy dating.

 

If your situation is broken, focus on fixing your situation first. Then, only pay attention to women who are attracted to you in an unbroken state. It's the only way to differentiate mutual respect from mutual desperation. Respect is a foundation. Desperation is quicksand. Fix yourself first, earn the respect and then go get it.

 

My advice is probably somehow totally out dated by texting where every one gets confused about what the other person means, yet no one can just pick up the phone and talk. I'll stop because I'm not sure if I'm just ranting about an older set of values or possibly helping with a different perspective.

 

I understand what you mean but I have explained my circumstances to her and she has explained hers to me and it doesn't seem to bother her at all. She still wants more meet ups and to continue with what we are doing. The way I see it is I don't want to throw away something that seems like it has potential just because of other circumstances. What if I say 'not for now' to her and then she goes and finds someone else? I've missed out on her then.

[d0nnivain]

Since you don't currently even have this lady's phone #, perhaps worry about a place to be alone after you have phone conversation. You could also rent a hotel room for the night.

[Redhead14]

So what are we supposed to do once we start 'officially' dating? She is staying with parent and so am I, because I recently split from long term partner and left her in the house with the kids I can't have a new girl coming back there while the mother of my children is living there. Her circumstances mean she also is being put up by a parent and she has all her kids staying there with her too.

 

I can't currently afford to rent anywhere because the deposits and rent up front is too high and social housing takes forever just to get onto their waiting lists

 

How are we supposed to spend time together? She had her own place recently but like I said circumstances mean she has to stay with her mother again. She keeps telling me she wants to sleep with me and other intimate things but how are we supposed to do it?

 

First of all, it's not a good idea to enter into another relationship so soon after ending a long-term relationship with children and while you are living with that partner. You should take some time to process all this and figure out how things will be with that situation going forward and get your life on track as a single person. All this is going to cause difficulties in a new relationship even if you enter into one later. Think about the bigger picture.

 

Secondly, if you decide the blow all that off and date her anyway, split the cost of a room once in a while if you just want to get laid.

 

This has disaster written all over it.

[Redhead14]

I understand what you mean but I have explained my circumstances to her and she has explained hers to me and it doesn't seem to bother her at all. She still wants more meet ups and to continue with what we are doing. The way I see it is I don't want to throw away something that seems like it has potential just because of other circumstances. What if I say 'not for now' to her and then she goes and finds someone else? I've missed out on her then.

 

it doesn't seem to bother her at all -- She's either lying to herself or simply doesn't have the life skills to evaluate a dating partner and what the impact of the circumstances surrounding the dating scenario could be. She doesn't see the big picture and neither do you -- myopia.

[Satu]

It doesn't sound like either of you currently have a strong foundation in life.

 

Maslows Hierarchy.

 

That makes establishing this relationship very difficult.

 

Not impossible, but difficult.

 

Work on your foundations.

[testmeasure]

On the first pass, I looked at the problem you asked about.

 

That might have been a mistake. I saw a reference to kids, but didn't parse out the context.

 

I think there could be a bigger issue here.

 

Women you have kids with often flip out when you start dating someone else. This is totally unpredictable. They could say they're fine with you seeing other people. They could be seeing other people themselves. But the moment you actually do it, the mother goes ballistic and throws everything she can at you.

 

It's totally unclear from your post what your parental commitment and involvement are. Are you interested in your kids? Do you have any kind of formal parenting plan? Or even an informal agreement? What is the status of child support?

 

It's totally unclear from your post what your financial commitment and involvement are. Is the house where your kids are rented, a joint asset with a mortgage, or in your name alone?

 

There's a ton of questions here. You start dating and you're playing with fire. It's a role of the dice as to whether the ex goes ballistic and turns every open question against you in as extreme a manner as she can.

 

Until you've got a formal parenting plan in place and resolved any remaining financial issues, this is a don't rock the boat situation. Meanwhile you've emptied the gas can into the bottom of the boat and are about to light up a smoke to celebrate your victory. You're playing with fire.

 

There are tons of stories out there where people have formal divorce paperwork clarifying everything. Even a year or two later, the guy starts dating again. The Mom goes ballistic and causes every kind of trouble imaginable. Even with everything already set down in black and white and signed.

 

Make sure your parental rights and financial obligations to your children are already set down in writing with signatures before you play with the fire.

 

On top of this, there is no possible way that another woman understands your current volatile situation correctly and wants you for the right reasons. Remember, you poured out the gas can into the boat and you're about to light up. You're inviting women on board. Either they don't get it or there's something less than straight forward going on.

 

 

.

[carhill]

How are we supposed to spend time together? She had her own place recently but like I said circumstances mean she has to stay with her mother again. She keeps telling me she wants to sleep with me and other intimate things but how are we supposed to do it?

 

Been awhile but back in the day it was making out at the drive-in theater and hanging out with the young lady at the cruise and sitting in the car in front of her house and going roller skating and, etc, etc.

 

Good point on first things first. Meet at some neutral and safe public spot first and see how things go. Carts and horses and all that.

[testmeasure]

Ok, in the spirit of becoming more enlightened....

 

My first response addressed the problem you presented.

 

My second post addressed the problem you should have presented.

 

Let's see if we can do even better.

 

Your kids need you. Children need both parents. I would hope that you were bonded to your children and already cared deeply about their future. If not, please go bond with them, they need you. It's hard to explain but in meeting their need it will be a greatly fulfilling experience. I don't know how to appeal to you, but since you seem to be driven by women, let's put it this way: Nature has designed sex to be satisfying. Nature has designed fulfilling your children's needs to be probably more satisfying than sex. Try it. Form a bond with them if you haven't and try being there for them.

 

Think about it. Why the heck does the biology make sex satisfying? For the result. If the result is that important to the biology, why would the biology make you re-seek the cause as opposed to giving a greater reward for following through on the result. Think about it. People say that having kids is rewarding. It's a really hard to understand thing if you're not bonded to a child. Once you are bonded, it's just sort of obvious.

 

Focus on your kids. You and they have a heap ton more to gain from that than either you or some other women do to gain from another relationship under these conditions.

 

If per chance your ex was some kind of protective control freak, know this: On a going forward basis if you get an official parenting plan she has no say in anything during your time. During your time, you're on an island where you're the parent and she doesn't exist. If she somehow made being a dad unpleasant, she can't do that after there is a formal, on record separation. You have a right to be your kid's dad and you can do it on your own terms without any input from her.

 

There may be more details and context that would change what I might say. I'm making a lot of assumptions. Frankly, you haven't given us a lot of important details if there are kids involved... which I fear is a sign in and of itself. Partly I feel like I'm at a fair throwing rings or darts and just seeing where they land.

.

[Tom Collins]

On the first pass, I looked at the problem you asked about.

 

That might have been a mistake. I saw a reference to kids, but didn't parse out the context.

 

I think there could be a bigger issue here.

 

Women you have kids with often flip out when you start dating someone else. This is totally unpredictable. They could say they're fine with you seeing other people. They could be seeing other people themselves. But the moment you actually do it, the mother goes ballistic and throws everything she can at you.

 

It's totally unclear from your post what your parental commitment and involvement are. Are you interested in your kids? Do you have any kind of formal parenting plan? Or even an informal agreement? What is the status of child support?

 

It's totally unclear from your post what your financial commitment and involvement are. Is the house where your kids are rented, a joint asset with a mortgage, or in your name alone?

 

There's a ton of questions here. You start dating and you're playing with fire. It's a role of the dice as to whether the ex goes ballistic and turns every open question against you in as extreme a manner as she can.

 

Until you've got a formal parenting plan in place and resolved any remaining financial issues, this is a don't rock the boat situation. Meanwhile you've emptied the gas can into the bottom of the boat and are about to light up a smoke to celebrate your victory. You're playing with fire.

 

There are tons of stories out there where people have formal divorce paperwork clarifying everything. Even a year or two later, the guy starts dating again. The Mom goes ballistic and causes every kind of trouble imaginable. Even with everything already set down in black and white and signed.

 

Make sure your parental rights and financial obligations to your children are already set down in writing with signatures before you play with the fire.

 

On top of this, there is no possible way that another woman understands your current volatile situation correctly and wants you for the right reasons. Remember, you poured out the gas can into the boat and you're about to light up. You're inviting women on board. Either they don't get it or there's something less than straight forward going on.

 

 

.

 

I will try to go into a little more detail regarding my circumstances and children. I have lived with the mother of my children for almost seven years, and to put it, for lack of a better word, she is USELESS. I have done pretty much everything for my children while at the same time carrying this woman on my back the whole time. I have been pressured to marry her more times than I can count, and been told to stay together (in this unhappy) relationship for the sake of the kids. I tried to make a home life with her, but it's pretty clear now more than ever that it is not going to work. We argue non stop, we fight, and none of that is any good for the children.

 

So we agreed between us that when we split we will simply share access to the children between us, although I will do more, just as I always have, simply because she is incapable of doing it. Here's an example: Rather than wake up at 7am for the children she will leave them fumbling in their bed crying for another couple of hours so she can sleep longer. She has no drive, no motivation. She is lazy. This many years and no signs of improvement.

 

This woman is also the reason why I currently don't have employment or any type of financial security. For the benefit of my children I quit work and signed up to be a full time carer to her and the children to stop any possible neglect of them, on her part. She, so far doesn't appear to have an issue with seeing other people and has even told me to 'go out' with the woman I am currently seeing.

 

The house we are/were in with the children is social housing. Both of our names are on the tenancy agreement. My name is on the birth certificate of both children which I've been told gives me full parental rights and responsibilities?

 

Now, I wasn't planning to start dating or looking for potential partners. However, this woman has just come along out of the blue via social media and appears to be a good fit. Her situation is in some way similar to mine. She has essentially brought up 3 kids on her own with very little help from the father. She had to leave her place due to outstanding repairs and health hazards for children within the property being ignored by the landlord.

 

So now we come to the issue of own place. Any welfare benefits received that would even come close to putting down a deposit on renting a place privately have been blown on alcohol, cigarettes, and taxis by the mother of my children. Until the children are full time nursery or schooling age, full time employment for me is out of the question because I cannot feel secure leaving them in her full time care. I could apply for social housing sure, but that's far from a 'quick' and easy process. In the meantime I need somewhere to take this woman because she keeps saying "We should chill together on the sofa" but I don't think she is allowed to bring me back to her mothers house.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Tom Collins

[Redhead14]

You both are in difficult positions indeed. But, your children should be the number 1 priority no matter what. I understand wanting to date and that you are probably lonely in terms of emotional support, but the home that these children live in is clearly dysfunctional on its own. Adding a third person to the mix would be a mistake. I say this because the situation will certainly complicate a new developing relationship which will further affect the atmostphere in the home for those kids. If you are struggling with the ex and at some point having difficulty in the new relationship, your children will suffer.

 

There is a saying that says "kids would rather be FROM a broken home than be IN one". Are there friends and/or relatives who can help care for the children while you get a job and work and save some money. If I were you I would spend as much time as possible finding the resources needed to care for the kids and get a job so that you are in a position to move out when the lease ends. Focus on the situation and forget about dating right now.

 

If this woman is as useless as you claim, I am wondering about whether the home is clean, they are clean and well fed, have all the things they need for school, etc. The reality maybe that at some point there will be someone who is aware of the conditions in the home and report it to social services and those kids may end up in foster care anyway.

[testmeasure]

In your second sentence of your first post you make it sound like you are staying with a parent and you recently left the house with your children and their mother.

 

In your most recent post you make it sound like you are the children's primary care giver. Are you waking early enough and going back to the house with your children by the time they need you so that they don't have to depend on her?

 

There were a lot of details missing, and you have filled them in well. I am glad to hear that you are taking care of your kids. It sounds like a horrible turn of events that she is so irresponsible that you had to quit your job to do so and now no one is working. That must have been a tough choice.

 

(1) As I understand it, being on the birth certificate is important. I think technically since you weren't married, you have zero rights till you go ask for them. Once you go ask for them, being on the birth certificate might be sufficient. So, what does that mean? I think, if she threw you out, you'd have no grounds to see the children till after you filed with the court and the court found that you actually were the father and then granted you parental rights.

 

(2) It sounds like you are the kids primary caregiver. You need to document this any way you can. Pictures, a journal. Records of what they ate, when the slept. If you can prove to a court that you're the primary care giver, that is the path to getting primary custody. The court in general does not like to break the "status quo". ("Status quo" is the Latin legal term for something like "current situation".)

 

Now, if you go back and think about the last 2 paragraphs... (1) has you being thrown out and you don't get to see the kids again till you hit court and prove paternity. At that point, you haven't been primary care giver for a while. You're not the "status quo". On the other hand if look at (2) where you document your role and then you go file with the court prior to being thrown out, you can actually get legal backing for your rights.

 

Of course, that's best done with an attorney. If there's no job and no money to rent a place, I don't begin to know what to tell you. But theoretically if you're the one taking care of the kids and you can prove that, then you could get her thrown out of the residence, get primary custody, she'd get some visitation, and you'd get child support from her. It's critical that you be able to prove that you're the one taking care of the kids. That is a pivotal thing. Document it any way you can think of. Keep grocery store receipts. Take a ton of pictures. Write down anything and everything.

 

Having documented everything would be particularly important if she denied you access to the kids until you could prove paternity to a court. You probably could with the birth certificate, but that takes time, months maybe, all during which you're out of the kids life. Then you hit court and haven't even seen the kids for 2, 4, 5 months? Presumption is going to be the mom is the primary care giver.

 

On the original question of the thread... I understand, even in difficult times and situations, people can connect. If the situations you are coming from are similar enough and you can respect each other for standing by the kids, maybe there is something there. It seems in general you're in over your head and you've dug a pretty deep hole. If all your time is with taking care of your kids, it's great that you're taking on that responsibility. But no one's working, so there is no money for a lawyer to officially make your status with the kids secure, and there's no money for a separate place to start a relationship. Keep taking care of the kids and document it till you figure a way to dig out.

 

Your last post painted a much better picture of your dilemma.

 

I'm not an attorney, this isn't legal advice, it's opinion or whatever.

 

.

[truth_seeker]

Tom Collins,

Harvey Wallbanger here...

 

If the concern is sex, I suggest a road trip to the lake: bring a picnic basket filled with oysters, and also some blankets... outdoor sex is like a bird flying in the sky.

[Lois_Griffin]

This woman is also the reason why I currently don't have employment or any type of financial security. For the benefit of my children I quit work and signed up to be a full time carer to her and the children to stop any possible neglect of them, on her part. She, so far doesn't appear to have an issue with seeing other people and has even told me to 'go out' with the woman I am currently seeing.

Sorry, but here's a little 411 for ya. She's not the reason you're not working and are letting the government pay you to stay home and take care of the children YOU chose to have (how the hell do people manage to work the system like this?)

 

You're the reason you don't have a job. Why would you think procreating with a woman who can barely chew her own food was in ANY way a good idea? And you foolishly did it TWICE.

 

Was she this successful, fully put together dynamo of a woman when you met her then magically turned into a worthless lazy person after she had two kids? I somehow doubt it. So you have no one to blame but yourself for this sh*t situation.

 

There are TONS of single mothers and fathers that manage to work AND get childcare. Why are you any different? If the Welfare Queen can't be bothered to raise her own kids, then get a JOB and pay for a private babysitter for your kids. There are TONS of stay at home moms who would love to babysit and earn extra income. Jesus, you act as though you have no choice in the matter when you DO.

 

And when you do get a job, on your way to work, just prop your wife's lazy ass up in a corner with her booze, her butts and her ashtray and that's where she'll stay all day.

 

I can't believe you think your biggest problem is finding a place to get some girlie action. Seriously, THAT'S what you think is your biggest problem? Here's a thought - why don't you get a JOB at a hotel? That would solve both your issues.

 

So now we come to the issue of own place. Any welfare benefits received that would even come close to putting down a deposit on renting a place privately have been blown on alcohol, cigarettes, and taxis by the mother of my children.

Ugh. Don't even get me STARTED on entitlement. So glad the hardworking taxpayers can support your wife's booze and cigarette habit so she can lay on her worthless ass all day. Does my heart good, I tell ya.

 

Stop depending on everyone else to carry you and go get a job. We all manage to work and provide our children with adequate childcare so there's no reason on earth you can't do what millions of us do every single day. No reason at ALL.

 

THEN, when you actually have an income, you can rent housing for yourself and your children.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Lois_Griffin

[Tom Collins]

Sorry, but here's a little 411 for ya. She's not the reason you're not working and are letting the government pay you to stay home and take care of the children YOU chose to have (how the hell do people manage to work the system like this?)

 

You're the reason you don't have a job. Why would you think procreating with a woman who can barely chew her own food was in ANY way a good idea? And you foolishly did it TWICE.

 

Was she this successful, fully put together dynamo of a woman when you met her then magically turned into a worthless lazy person after she had two kids? I somehow doubt it. So you have no one to blame but yourself for this sh*t situation.

 

There are TONS of single mothers and fathers that manage to work AND get childcare. Why are you any different? If the Welfare Queen can't be bothered to raise her own kids, then get a JOB and pay for a private babysitter for your kids. There are TONS of stay at home moms who would love to babysit and earn extra income. Jesus, you act as though you have no choice in the matter when you DO.

 

And when you do get a job, on your way to work, just prop your wife's lazy ass up in a corner with her booze, her butts and her ashtray and that's where she'll stay all day.

 

I can't believe you think your biggest problem is finding a place to get some girlie action. Seriously, THAT'S what you think is your biggest problem? Here's a thought - why don't you get a JOB at a hotel? That would solve both your issues.

 

Ugh. Don't even get me STARTED on entitlement. So glad the hardworking taxpayers can support your wife's booze and cigarette habit so she can lay on her worthless ass all day. Does my heart good, I tell ya.

 

Stop depending on everyone else to carry you and go get a job. We all manage to work and provide our children with adequate childcare so there's no reason on earth you can't do what millions of us do every single day. No reason at ALL.

 

THEN, when you actually have an income, you can rent housing for yourself and your children.

 

I bet you're childless, aren't you?

 

Blah blah get a job this, 'hard working taxpayers' that..You have no idea how hard I have it. I work harder raising 2 YOUNG children than you do at your stupid 9-5 office job that you hate all week long but bleat about how everyone else should get off their backside and do.

 

Raising children IS the hardest job in the world, as any decent mother or father would attest to. Perhaps if you had a few yourself instead of being married to your petty career and mortgage you'd understand a bit better. All these people bleating on about 'The third worlders are 'outbreeding' us, the immigrants are 'outbreeding' us'. Geez maybe do something about it then and birth a few of your own! This was the way it was before those feminists got a hold of you! A mother's place was the home, not the damn workplace!

 

Anyway, you clearly have no constructive advice to give regarding my predicament and thus are not worthy of any further finger exercise from me. Makes me laugh how you imply that anyone not working in your beloved consumerist matrix has it easy, and that it's so easy to juggle around two young toddlers who are perpetually ill AND a full time job which doesn't even pay enough to cover rent and groceries. You expect me to pay strangers to look after my kids when I can do it myself? I guarantee I work harder than you doing this so stand down!

[Tom Collins]

Tom Collins,

Harvey Wallbanger here...

 

If the concern is sex, I suggest a road trip to the lake: bring a picnic basket filled with oysters, and also some blankets... outdoor sex is like a bird flying in the sky.

 

Well, it's not so much sex exclusively, but after we've been 'seeing each other' for a while she or me are going to make a move eventually and that's when it becomes a problem of where to go back to. It's pretty darn cold here at the moment for outdoor sex, lol

[Tom Collins]

In your second sentence of your first post you make it sound like you are staying with a parent and you recently left the house with your children and their mother.

 

In your most recent post you make it sound like you are the children's primary care giver. Are you waking early enough and going back to the house with your children by the time they need you so that they don't have to depend on her?

 

There were a lot of details missing, and you have filled them in well. I am glad to hear that you are taking care of your kids. It sounds like a horrible turn of events that she is so irresponsible that you had to quit your job to do so and now no one is working. That must have been a tough choice.

 

(1) As I understand it, being on the birth certificate is important. I think technically since you weren't married, you have zero rights till you go ask for them. Once you go ask for them, being on the birth certificate might be sufficient. So, what does that mean? I think, if she threw you out, you'd have no grounds to see the children till after you filed with the court and the court found that you actually were the father and then granted you parental rights.

 

(2) It sounds like you are the kids primary caregiver. You need to document this any way you can. Pictures, a journal. Records of what they ate, when the slept. If you can prove to a court that you're the primary care giver, that is the path to getting primary custody. The court in general does not like to break the "status quo". ("Status quo" is the Latin legal term for something like "current situation".)

 

Now, if you go back and think about the last 2 paragraphs... (1) has you being thrown out and you don't get to see the kids again till you hit court and prove paternity. At that point, you haven't been primary care giver for a while. You're not the "status quo". On the other hand if look at (2) where you document your role and then you go file with the court prior to being thrown out, you can actually get legal backing for your rights.

 

Of course, that's best done with an attorney. If there's no job and no money to rent a place, I don't begin to know what to tell you. But theoretically if you're the one taking care of the kids and you can prove that, then you could get her thrown out of the residence, get primary custody, she'd get some visitation, and you'd get child support from her. It's critical that you be able to prove that you're the one taking care of the kids. That is a pivotal thing. Document it any way you can think of. Keep grocery store receipts. Take a ton of pictures. Write down anything and everything.

 

Having documented everything would be particularly important if she denied you access to the kids until you could prove paternity to a court. You probably could with the birth certificate, but that takes time, months maybe, all during which you're out of the kids life. Then you hit court and haven't even seen the kids for 2, 4, 5 months? Presumption is going to be the mom is the primary care giver.

 

On the original question of the thread... I understand, even in difficult times and situations, people can connect. If the situations you are coming from are similar enough and you can respect each other for standing by the kids, maybe there is something there. It seems in general you're in over your head and you've dug a pretty deep hole. If all your time is with taking care of your kids, it's great that you're taking on that responsibility. But no one's working, so there is no money for a lawyer to officially make your status with the kids secure, and there's no money for a separate place to start a relationship. Keep taking care of the kids and document it till you figure a way to dig out.

 

Your last post painted a much better picture of your dilemma.

 

I'm not an attorney, this isn't legal advice, it's opinion or whatever.

 

.

 

Thank you. Yes, it's a bit of a back and forth thing at the moment in terms of I'm half there and half at the parents home. If I stay there the night the mother of the children will either sleep somewhere separate (on the sofa) or stay at a friend's house or her own mothers house. Like I said though she seems to be quite okay with the possibility I'm seeing someone else. She hasn't hit the ballistic switch yet.