frustrating teachings

[tasev1]

It is very frustrating when I need to rely on research, reading, forums, etc...to learn what I need to do to find success in dating. It is especially worse when you don't know who's advice to trust or follow!. There are so many differing and opposing opinions out there that cause mass confusion and conflict with one's beliefs. I am trying to find a set of beliefs that work for me, but when I am also conflicted on the inside it is hard to choose what route I should take. Right now, I am employing a lot of tactics taught by Coach Corey Wayne, but also trying to fast-track my experience level by learning PUA material to get some quick XP. So trying PUA, but at the same time using Wayne's teachings for finding a girlfriend is sending me on two different tangents that are hard to focus on together. Also, the threads I am reading here on the forums and what people really see in life also throw a wrench into the equation.

 

My old beliefs got me nowhere, and are apparently wrong - yet so many people still live by them. My new beliefs leave me inspired and wanting more, but are often detested by many. I am trying to balance the two.

 

So far, I have had some light success - I am very comfortable cold approaching women, and I got myself a date like a boss. But that's where it stops ATM. I need to fast track my experience and grow as a capable, sexual, loving man, before I have the confidence and presence to meet and keep the woman of my dreams.

 

Due to many influences and other effects in life which I will not get into here, I have not had a successful dating or love life. I'm 34, and feeling increasingly frustrated, increasingly desperate, and I need to find success somewhere. I feel like I need to make up for what I didn't do in my 20's. My social history has not been a help, and my lack of physical experience with women is something that is seriously holding me back because I am feeling afraid to escalate. The fact that women would so heavily judge a man of my age for lack of experience is weighing heavily on my conscience almost forcing me to "fake it 'till I make it".

[tasev1]

Just for those interested, here is what I am doing:

 

Books (all free or dirt cheap on Kindle):

Corey Wayne - How to be a 3% Man

Dale Carnegie - How to Win Friends and Influence People (pending read)

Sun Tsu - The Art of War

Christopher James - TAO and the art of being badass

Jon Sinn - From Hello to Sex, the Man's Guide to Getting Laid (pending read)

Andrew Ferebee - The Dating Playbook for Men

 

Online/Video:

Coach Corey Wayne

Hayley Quinn

Deepak Wayne

Willy Beck

Various RSD (Real Social Dynamics) presenters and seminars.

The 21 Convention.

[doeblin]

Maaan, this kind of stuff is super overrated.

 

Basically you just need to work on your self-esteem (cognitive behavioral therapy is the best at this, and it's actually scientific, not some gobbledygook).

 

And then ask out every women you find attractive.

 

It's part self-esteem and part numbers game. There's no great secret or mystery to it.

Be cool.

[tasev1]

Maaan, this kind of stuff is super overrated.

 

Basically you just need to work on your self-esteem (cognitive behavioral therapy is the best at this, and it's actually scientific, not some gobbledygook).

 

And then ask out every women you find attractive.

 

It's part self-esteem and part numbers game. There's no great secret or mystery to it.

Be cool.

 

I'll check out the CBT and see what that is about.

 

I do ask girls out, when I manage to meet them. Approaching for me is easy. It's the fact that I can't escalate the interaction, or read social cues all that well. I have found more success over the last 6 months reading this material than I have ever before - but this material really opens my eyes to what I have failed to do. I need to learn how to build sexual attraction, but not having sex in the first place makes it difficult for example.

 

Essentially, I have no positive reference experience.

[FeelingFireworks]

You're confused due to info overload and feeling like you ought to act like you're told rather than blend the material with who you are.

 

First not all of those books are readily/appropriately transferable into dating (eg Art of War is traditionally more appropriate reading for businessmen, politicians and certain ranks of military as the strategies employed are more relevant in those areas).

 

Furthermore, PUA is about getting the girl for the short term with no advice on sustaining longterm commitment. Corey and the other similar material to his is about getting the girl for the long term and starting out the right way assist this. Those two approaches are entirely different and require a different mindset for each. I don't know how you can employ them simultaneously with ease.

 

You need to sit down and fully decide what YOU want. Do you want a gf or to casually date? Are there any personal skills/traits you excel in that work to your advantage in dating? What skills/traits do you think require improvement?

 

Add to that: are you putting yourself in enough social situations to meet girls and are you talking to enough of them? Doeblin is right - for many men it's part confidence and part numbers game. Increase your chances!

 

And the past is the past - do not mope about missing out on your 20s. That period is gone. Revel about being in your 30s, be in the present and enjoy the experiences you have from today going forward. Positive energy can be very sexy

[tasev1]

You are so right, thank you for that. I am a bit mixed in my objectives, and that is indeed causing me to tackle two paths.

 

I want a GF and long term relationship / marriage as my ultimate goal, but I also want to go out and have fun to gain some experience. Having not done that, I haven't figured out all the traits I like or don't like. I could meet my perfect woman tomorrow, but not have the skills to keep her. Or if I did, I would always be wondering what else is out there. I want to learn to be confident in myself and know that I could be a strong centered man for her and not feel like a child.

[AMJ]

I got a little stressed out just reading your posts. And I had to google some of what you are talking about. Maybe a dumb question, but what is XP? As a woman, it's strange for me to see men try to tackle the obstacle of dating like an engineer. Like this is a science and there is a specific method to follow to solve your problem. This whole line of thinking is pretty much the opposite of how women like to think about dating. There's nothing romantic about becoming a pick-up artist. Women want romance and friendship.

 

If you met your perfect woman tomorrow, you shouldn't need "skills" to keep her. She should just like you for who you are today, that should be enough. Dating comes easier for people who have lots of confidence, but that doesn't mean that shy people can't find love either.

 

If you want to share examples of having a hard time reading social cues, maybe we can give feedback? As a single woman in my 30's, I'm finding that more of the guys I date seem to be a little clueless about chemistry. For example a guy who definitely was attracted to me, but couldn't bring himself to even kiss me by the 3rd date. I'm smiling, laughing at his jokes, trying my best to make this less daunting for him, but he wouldn't do it. I was frustrated. Something you should try is just to tell her that she's attractive. When the conversation becomes sexual, it becomes easier for both of you to start flirting physically.

 

I feel sometimes like men are so intimidated on a date that they forget that women still want to be complimented. And women are thinking, I just spent all this time on my hair and makeup, picking out this outfit, just to look nice, and he doesn't even notice or appreciate it.

 

To have more casual sex, if that's what you need...there are sites for people who just want to hook up. That shouldn't be too hard. Or you could just start drinking more- but do so at a bar, where there are a good amount of horny, young women.

[Buddhist]

I feel sometimes like men are so intimidated on a date that they forget that women still want to be complimented. And women are thinking, I just spent all this time on my hair and makeup, picking out this outfit, just to look nice, and he doesn't even notice or appreciate it.

 

 

Actually a lot of that reticence comes from PUA material that tells men not to compliment women or they will get an 'ego' and no longer be easy to manipulate and have sex with. It's quite sickening the mental mindset a lot of men have and propagate amoung themselves. It's basically the attitude the Op has, he just wants to get his end in and is willing to manipulate another person to get it. Yuck.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Buddhist

[hasaquestion]

I got a little stressed out just reading your posts. And I had to google some of what you are talking about. Maybe a dumb question, but what is XP?

 

I assume XP is shorthand for experience

 

As a woman, it's strange for me to see men try to tackle the obstacle of dating like an engineer. Like this is a science and there is a specific method to follow to solve your problem. This whole line of thinking is pretty much the opposite of how women like to think about dating. There's nothing romantic about becoming a pick-up artist. Women want romance and friendship.

 

I'm not going to touch on the "pick up artist" stuff. But for me personally, life isn't worth living if I don't get to tackle the obstacle of everything "like an engineer". That's what makes life awesome to me. I'd be miserable if life wasn't an exercise in casual operations research. Not everyone is that way but it can absolutely work.

 

The OP's problem is that he's trying to immerse himself in 'material' without the social background that everyone else has from just living life. He doesn't 'know himself' yet and he doesn't have the background to screen through all the junk for the incisive writing.

 

OP I looked at some of the books you mentioned on Amazon and I'm not sure any of it is really worth reading. Art of War is interesting but its not getting you laid if that's what you want.

 

If you must read a book on self improvement I'd scrap them all and check out The Charisma Myth by Olivia Fox Cabane. IMO that is a legitimately useful book and its not about dating, its about interpersonal relationships in general. But really, getting yourself out there with male friends and figuring out who YOU are is the most important thing. You don't know what you need until you know who you are.

[d0nnivain]

All of that is to be taken with a grain of salt. These are not instruction manuals & should not be treated as such.

 

When you boil all of these books, videos, coaches etc. down to their cores you get two basic concepts:

 

1. Be yourself

 

2. Have some self esteem, self confidence and self respect.

The PUA BS about appearing uninterested is trying to teach you not to beg like a drooling dog. It's not about game playing. It's about knowing your own value & surrounding yourself with positive people who appreciate your uniqueness.

[tasev1]

You pretty much said it right there AMJ! Men are CLUELESS. I really have very little feel for concept of flirtation, and I was have been that same guy not kissing you by the third date. It wasn't until I started this research that I realised it was ok to kiss on the first, and what I previously thought was disrespectful or rude behavior is actually good flirting and acceptable to build attraction, which I was apparently scared of. If I couldn't figure it out naturally by my age because I never made it far enough, I have to take steps to correct it....

Which is more than I can say for most guys, even the ones that do get girls...... Occasionally

[tasev1]

Just to clarify.... I'm not necessarily trying to be a PUA myself, rather trying to take things from itr that works for me and learn about different interactions.

 

At the same time, I've never had friends conducive to meeting women, and my family never set a good example..... So all my life I have been on my own in figuring that out..... Including puberty

[hasaquestion]

You pretty much said it right there AMJ! Men are CLUELESS. I really have very little feel for concept of flirtation, and I was have been that same guy not kissing you by the third date. It wasn't until I started this research that I realised it was ok to kiss on the first, and what I previously thought was disrespectful or rude behavior is actually good flirting and acceptable to build attraction, which I was apparently scared of. If I couldn't figure it out naturally by my age because I never made it far enough, I have to take steps to correct it....

Which is more than I can say for most guys, even the ones that do get girls...... Occasionally

 

Not all men are clueless about flirting. YOU are clueless! But that's OKAY. Everyone is clueless about some things in life. God knows I am. For some people its math, for some people its girls, for some people its _______, you name it.

People don't pop out of the womb baby Casanovas or something, they live life and they learn from it. Don't judge your value on how good you are with women. Its a silly benchmark and the less you do it the better off you'll be.

 

As to Donnivan's point, pick-up advice often works in real life for timid men because they are doing it so far wrong in the other direction, that when you tell them to be an indifferent a** what you get is actually right up the middle. But that doesn't necessarily make it good advice.

[scrapbooker]

I agree with being true to yourself, building inward confidence (that isn't dependent on a response), and CBT.

 

The best men are the ones who learn how to treat a woman instead of how to play her.

[AMJ]

I meant no disrespect to engineers- just that trying to understand how to date a woman shouldn't require a formula or equation. Human interaction is a fluid process and I don't think you can explain emotion the way you can explain an equation.

 

So am I to understand that every guy I date who doesn't compliment me, is learning to be a pick-up artist, and is trying to manipulate me somehow? It's not like I have this need to be complimented, but I can say that it definitely helps move the process along. Although, a man can compliment me all night, but if the chemistry is not there, it's just not there. I'm just asking because, I wonder where the other part of this pick-up artist game is lurking. If his goal by not complimenting a woman is to seal the deal, how does that work exactly? I can only think of how that approach would work on an insecure woman, who thinks she needs to prove her worth through sex. One of my old roommates was like this, and I have to say, she pretty much slept with everyone. You would never need to read a book to figure out how to sleep with a woman like this, who has zero self-esteem.

 

What I mean is, how does not complimenting a woman help you attract her more? When a guy doesn't compliment me, doesn't try to kiss me, I basically think he's not interested. And then I'm not interested, either.

 

I don't know if this is helpful either, but back to my example of the guy not kissing me. I'm telling my friend this story, and she says "Why don't you just kiss him? What's the big deal?" Because she married a shy guy, and when they were dating, she made all the moves. He's just a laid-back type of guy, and if it weren't for her progressing things forward, their relationship never would have moved so quickly. Well, she and I are attracted to different types of people, so that approach won't work for me. But my point is that there are women who won't mind taking charge and moving things forward. Maybe this will take less of the pressure off of you?

Edited February 1, 2016 by AMJ

[Buddhist]

So am I to understand that every guy I date who doesn't compliment me, is learning to be a pick-up artist, and is trying to manipulate me somehow?

 

Thats not what I meant. But in general, especially if you read this site, men are in all about tearing women down, destroying their self esteem in order to compensate for the lack of their own. PUA material is all about that, disrespecting another person in order to gain the upper hand.

 

God forbid that a woman should ever feel capable, loved or respected. She might then decide not to be with the degenerate men who typically go for PUA material, of which the OP has decided to join the ranks. Why? Because he's decided it works and will get him laid to tear another person apart like that. His penile gratification is all that matters to him, as it is all that matters with so many of them.

[tasev1]

The girl I am trying to date now I essentially picked up in public, using the strength learned in material (all I said was hi). Does that make me a PUA? No. Lots of these guys are just themselves, but learn certain Jedi mind tricks to help them understand how to improve their chances of meeting and getting a date. I can compliment..... But I want to know how to compliment well. I can ask a girl out, but how can I ask to make her want to say yes. Women subconsciously test men..... Understanding this helps me cope with it. Etc.....

 

I believe in natural interaction... But it would take me forever to figure it out on my own. I've had enough embarrassment without understanding why, because women don't give direct feedback (except here!). I need to figure out what parts of my psyche should be stored away that would otherwise ruin any chance I have.

 

Nonetheless, I enjoy discussions like these. Whatever helps.

[AMJ]

Well, if being a pick-up artist is really only about manipulating women to make us feel worthless, so that we'll have sex with the guy who is making us feel worthless, because we hope that doing so will make us feel better about ourselves- and of course win this great guy- then...wow. Aren't there already enough *******s in the world? Why do we need any more?

 

I've got nothing against people who want to have casual sex- but I do have a problem with people who are dishonest about their intentions, or want to manipulate someone else like this.

 

And these tactics can only work on women who already have a low self-esteem, or I'd say no self esteem whatsoever. How does manipulating a woman with no self esteem make a man feel good about himself? That's like, being proud of beating a 5 year old at checkers.

 

I guess I didn't realize this pick-up artist stuff was so popular. It seems surprising because I would think that those techniques are not going to work for most women. Most women I know who are happy in their relationships would describe their partners as being generous, kind, considerate. They didn't decide to take their relationship to the next level because he was belittling them or making them feel like they needed him to feel good about themselves.

 

If that's what being a pick-up artist is about, how can that lead to a successful relationship?

[SwordofFlame]

Well, if being a pick-up artist is really only about manipulating women to make us feel worthless, so that we'll have sex with the guy who is making us feel worthless, because we hope that doing so will make us feel better about ourselves- and of course win this great guy- then...wow. Aren't there already enough *******s in the world? Why do we need any more?

 

I've got nothing against people who want to have casual sex- but I do have a problem with people who are dishonest about their intentions, or want to manipulate someone else like this.

 

And these tactics can only work on women who already have a low self-esteem, or I'd say no self esteem whatsoever. How does manipulating a woman with no self esteem make a man feel good about himself? That's like, being proud of beating a 5 year old at checkers.

 

I guess I didn't realize this pick-up artist stuff was so popular. It seems surprising because I would think that those techniques are not going to work for most women. Most women I know who are happy in their relationships would describe their partners as being generous, kind, considerate. They didn't decide to take their relationship to the next level because he was belittling them or making them feel like they needed him to feel good about themselves.

 

If that's what being a pick-up artist is about, how can that lead to a successful relationship?

 

Guys will do what works to get laid, if being a "nice guy" worked as well as these PUA tactics, I'm sure you'd see a lot more "nice guys".

[AMJ]

Boys will be boys! We have penises, therefore we can justify all of this completely disgusting behavior. Just keep on telling yourself that.

[d0nnivain]

The girl I am trying to date now I essentially picked up in public, using the strength learned in material (all I said was hi). Does that make me a PUA? No.

 

No, it doesn't make you a PUA. It does make you confident enough to say Hi. That one little word, the ice breaker is sometimes the hardest.

[hasaquestion]

Thats not what I meant. But in general, especially if you read this site, men are in all about tearing women down, destroying their self esteem in order to compensate for the lack of their own. PUA material is all about that, disrespecting another person in order to gain the upper hand.

 

God forbid that a woman should ever feel capable, loved or respected. She might then decide not to be with the degenerate men who typically go for PUA material, of which the OP has decided to join the ranks. Why? Because he's decided it works and will get him laid to tear another person apart like that. His penile gratification is all that matters to him, as it is all that matters with so many of them.

 

Eh. Reading about seduction or whatever is definitely beneficial for a lot of men. And seeing a lot of what gets passed off as 'advice' for men on here its easy to see why. Society has a relentless commitment to patting people on the back and lying to them instead of helping them. That's why you get people who come on here and have no idea what's going on. They've been patted on the back and told they are a catch their whole lives instead of being told they need to work if they want to stand out. Then they get to __ and don't know what to do.

 

At the end of the day, anything useful in life can be used to constructive or sinister ends. Seduction-ey literature explores a lot of the aspects of human interaction (especially the underpinning elements of value, something like social proof) that everyone else is too proper to discuss in the open. It definitely does have value to some.

 

How you choose to act on a greater understanding of other people, be it to be a giver or a taker.... that's up to you.

[doeblin]

Guys will do what works to get laid, if being a "nice guy" worked as well as these PUA tactics, I'm sure you'd see a lot more "nice guys".

 

 

This is a false dichotomy. The "nice guys" you are talking about are people with low self-esteem, who pander to the needs of the women they are into. Being desperate is simply unattractive.

 

Again, it's about confidence and just asking them out, and moving on when they are clearly not interested.

Sure, some people need the mental toolkit to boost their self-esteem, but you can get that from better sources (like CBT or mindfulness), without the moneymaking poppycock of the PUA stuff.

 

Also there is something yucky about seeing romantic social interactions as pure salesmanship. It objectifies both parties: you are the commodity you want to sell, her vagina is the object you want to acquire in return, and you need this super effective sales technique to make the transaction possible. Great. Now join the bootcamp for $$$!

 

The irony is that PUA-entrepeneurs use low self-esteem guys to make money, in turn they "coach" the guys to use low self-esteem girls for sex. Transaction transaction transaction.

 

Instead of organic interaction.

[Buddhist]

Guys will do what works to get laid, if being a "nice guy" worked as well as these PUA tactics, I'm sure you'd see a lot more "nice guys".

 

Thanks for demonstrating so perfectly the penis-centric mindset of so many men. As if a vagina is some kind of canned good to be acquired at the local store instead of being a part of a person, one should be interacting with on a normal level. To then say it's acceptable to prey on the vulnerable in society because you want to satisfy your penis is probably the very reason many women outright reject many men. We aren't stupid, we know that 90% of the time the man just see's us as a walking masturbation tool.

 

It's not actually the job of womankind to be said masturbatory tool.

[katiegrl]

Hi tasev....

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I advised you in a previous thread to stay away from that "educational research." It will only confuse you, as evidenced by what is exactly happening now.

 

Also, there is no such thing a particular piece of advice being "okay," or "not okay." Or "right" or "wrong."

 

There IS no right way or wrong way....there is only what works for YOU (and the person you are with). TOGETHER.

 

And this takes getting in touch with your INTUITION.

 

We all have it, some are more in touch with it than others. But once you learn to tap into it.... it will be a lot easier to determine whether or not something is clicking and/or "feels right." To YOU.

 

If you want to read a good book, I would suggest "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell. ALL his books are good but "Blink" discusses how to get in touch with your INTUITION, so as to get a better "feel" for how things are going on a date, how your date is feeling... mutual chemistry, etc..

 

Throw out the garbage you are reading....it's all propaganda for the purpose of making a dime.