Is this...emotional abuse?

[DreamLost]

I just got a text message from her on the cleaning topic. She said from now on she would not say anything more on the cleanliness of the house because she thinks it is (1) useless (2) demeaning to herself to have to say this so many times (3) affecting her emotions. She said I can do anything I want at the house but she can also choose to not live in the house. She continues to say that how I am not willing to improve and how she feels like a cleaner every time she comes to the house. She said she is not able to enjoy staying at the house and so she would not go there in the near future. She ended the note and said if she ever talks about the cleanliness topic with me again she will get hit by a car and die...

 

...that hurts

[katiegrl]

I just got a text message from her on the cleaning topic. She said from now on she would not say anything more on the cleanliness of the house because she thinks it is (1) useless (2) demeaning to herself to have to say this so many times (3) affecting her emotions. She said I can do anything I want at the house but she can also choose to not live in the house. She continues to say that how I am not willing to improve and how she feels like a cleaner every time she comes to the house. She said she is not able to enjoy staying at the house and so she would not go there in the near future. She ended the note and said if she ever talks about the cleanliness topic with me again she will get hit by a car and die...

 

...that hurts

 

Dude, why don't you just make an effort to clean up after yourself? This seems like such a no brainer! Clean up!

 

I imagine it must be pretty disgusting is she refuses to even live there....sheesh.

 

I don't agree with her tantrums, etc, but hell maybe it really is "that" bad.

 

I don't think we're getting the full story here ...clean up after yourself! Is it really "that" difficult?

[smackie9]

Ever consider she has a mental illness? She sounds like my mother and she is manic/ bi-polar. What you are going through is what I went through with my mother growing up. Every time you miss picking up something, it causes her great anxiety, it offends her so personally she lashes out. She is blaming you for these episodes of anxiety she is having. That you are the root cause of it.....dude she is in need of some serious therapy. Get her in to a doctor so she can get diagnosed properly, and some help.

[katiegrl]

Ever consider she has a mental illness? She sounds like my mother and she is manic/ bi-polar. What you are going through is what I went through with my mother growing up. Every time you miss picking up something, it causes her great anxiety, it offends her so personally she lashes out. She is blaming you for these episodes of anxiety she is having. That you are the root cause of it.....dude she is in need of some serious therapy. Get her in to a doctor so she can get diagnosed properly, and some help.

 

She could suffer from obsessive/compulsive disorder. Watched a documentary on that and hell it is debilitating and life altering. Every little tiny thing has to be in its proper place, and god forbid there is a piece of dust. The person will have a full blown panic attack.

 

Or maybe OP really is that messy ...that gets old, fast.

 

Or a combo of both.

 

Hard to know for sure without being there and knowing them.

Edited February 2, 2016 by katiegrl

[DreamLost]

Dude, why don't you just make an effort to clean up after yourself? This seems like such a no brainer! Clean up!

 

I imagine it must be pretty disgusting is she refuses to even live there....sheesh.

 

I don't agree with her tantrums, etc, but hell maybe it really is "that" bad.

 

I don't think we're getting the full story here ...clean up after yourself! Is it really "that" difficult?

 

No it is not. But I honestly did try my best to do this, but like I said I would miss things from time to time on my mental checklist and that's when she gets upset. I don't leave stuff lying around, I sweep and wipe the floor every few days, I run through my mental cleaning checklist everyday...I will look into hiring a cleaner.

[loveflower]

Ever consider she has a mental illness? She sounds like my mother and she is manic/ bi-polar. What you are going through is what I went through with my mother growing up. Every time you miss picking up something, it causes her great anxiety, it offends her so personally she lashes out. She is blaming you for these episodes of anxiety she is having. That you are the root cause of it.....dude she is in need of some serious therapy. Get her in to a doctor so she can get diagnosed properly, and some help.

 

 

Sounds like my mother too...

 

I don't know if she is manic/bi-polar though. she sure likes to pick on me...and she can't stop talking and mumbling about everything all the times...

[dispatch3d]

Dude, why don't you just make an effort to clean up after yourself? This seems like such a no brainer! Clean up!

 

I imagine it must be pretty disgusting is she refuses to even live there....sheesh.

 

I don't agree with her tantrums, etc, but hell maybe it really is "that" bad.

 

I don't think we're getting the full story here ...clean up after yourself! Is it really "that" difficult?

 

Everybody should be treated with respect, and she's not doing that. To me that's way more unacceptable than some hygene issues.

 

Not saying you don't have to change your ways, but her communication would be a major problem for me.

[Terry8889]

Not to sound negative but I think if you dont leave now, she will leave you eventually. What you describe is exactly what happened to my best friend, she would constantly complain about the guy messiness when they moved in. Then they had 2 kids and it only made things more difficult for both.

 

She would say "I married a grown man and sometimes I feel like I have 3 children to take care of, and that sucks!." Who could blame her though, she found it disgusting how he would come home from playing sports and go directly to bed all sweaty and fall asleep or sometimes try and have sex like that. Well it seems like stupid little details but it does affect the relationship dynamic.

 

Anyway, one day she said enough is enough and divorced him. However she never threw tantrums over this things, she talked about it and explained things, he just tried and tried but after a few weeks he forgot about his "compromise" to be more clean and he started doing it over and over.

 

Either way sorry to say this but if this is how things are NOW? it won't get better once you get married or have kids. If I were you I'd be seriously reconsidering marrying this person. She has no respect for your parents and I can't believe you put up with it. I'd dump her ass. Seems like you have no self steem and dignity. Sorry

[testmeasure]

I just got a text message from her on the cleaning topic. She said from now on she would not say anything more on the cleanliness of the house because she thinks it is (1) useless (2) demeaning to herself to have to say this so many times (3) affecting her emotions. She said I can do anything I want at the house but she can also choose to not live in the house. She continues to say that how I am not willing to improve and how she feels like a cleaner every time she comes to the house. She said she is not able to enjoy staying at the house and so she would not go there in the near future. She ended the note and said if she ever talks about the cleanliness topic with me again she will get hit by a car and die...

 

...that hurts

 

Ok. This is not normal. I don't mean the text above. The overall situation is not normal. If this was such a big issue to her and you are so bad at it, she would have dumped you over it long, long ago. Normal people don't get 8 years into a relationship, suddenly one day realize they have a huge problem with you and then proceed to emotionally terrorize you as a means of getting you to change.

 

If I am right, and this is not coming from some place normal, it's not going to obey normal rules. The only thing you can count on is that there is no way to actually fix this by cleaning more and not talking seriously. Beyond that, expect the unexpected. She may break up with you over it. She may never break up with you over it. She may break up to upset you and then get back to together. Repeatedly. This may go on longer than you can imagine and get worse than you can imagine. Or it may be over tomorrow. Her emotions are running the show, so there's no way to know.

 

Here's a hard one to wrap your mind around: You've already seen that your words can sometimes mean nothing to her. Sometimes, her own words may mean absolutely nothing to her. In her world she sees a mess and experiences some kind of trauma. In response she uses whatever words she needs to in order to create the same level of trauma in you. You listen to the words and try to interpret the communication based on the meaning and content of the message. She doesn't care about the words or mean a thing she's saying. To her the words are only a tool to make you feel or react a certain way.

 

She has no intent to step in front of a car. But she needs you to picture it, react, and feel that way. So, that's what she says. She may mean what she says about never coming over to the house again. Or she may be just saying that to get you to react and feel a certain way. If this is coming from someplace that's not normal, there's no way to tell, because it's her emotions that are running the show.

 

 

.

Edited February 2, 2016 by testmeasure

[DreamLost]

Ok. This is not normal. I don't mean the text above. The overall situation is not normal. If this was such a big issue to her and you are so bad at it, she would have dumped you over it long, long ago. Normal people don't get 8 years into a relationship, suddenly one day realize they have a huge problem with you and then proceed to emotionally terrorize you as a means of getting you to change. .

 

I guess it was never a problem because we weren't living together. I knew before we moved in that I need to improve on cleanliness. I just had no idea it will be this difficult.

 

Here's a hard one to wrap your mind around: You've already seen that your words can sometimes mean nothing to her. Sometimes, her own words may mean absolutely nothing to her. In her world she sees a mess and experiences some kind of trauma. In response she uses whatever words she needs to in order to create the same level of trauma in you. You listen to the words and try to interpret the communication based on the meaning and content of the message. She doesn't care about the words or mean a thing she's saying. To her the words are only a tool to make you feel or react a certain way. .

 

I can totally understand, it has been a week since I have talked to her and I am worried that if I don't talk to her soon she will send through a message to tell me she wants to breakup. The thing is I really want to make things work between us and but I don't know what I need to/can do to fix this.

 

Tonight is supposed to be the family dinner and I really don't feel like I am up for it...

[joseb]

I don't really think this has much to do with cleaning. I think she is using this as an excuse. Either because she is ready to leave you, or it is a way to control you.

I'm not sure from the info you give, but it's possible she has BPD.

There are definitely some signs,

 

the "don't talk in a serious voice" is classic - does she also say "don't shout" even if you are just trying to talk?

 

the critism of cleanliness I got from my ex, the irony was she was a lot messier than me! But towards the end she would bring out cutlery to show me how I hadn't cleaned it right.

 

Bad relationships with parent/family is another common one.

 

And the constant threat to leave if you don't do x y z - common.

 

Finally the dramatic talk of getting hit by a car and dying - I heard that kinda crap a lot.

 

Like I say, I'm not convinced it's the case here, but it's a possibility.

[Gaeta]

I just got a text message from her on the cleaning topic. She said from now on she would not say anything more on the cleanliness of the house because she thinks it is (1) useless (2) demeaning to herself to have to say this so many times (3) affecting her emotions. She said I can do anything I want at the house but she can also choose to not live in the house. She continues to say that how I am not willing to improve and how she feels like a cleaner every time she comes to the house. She said she is not able to enjoy staying at the house and so she would not go there in the near future. She ended the note and said if she ever talks about the cleanliness topic with me again she will get hit by a car and die...

 

...that hurts

 

I would reply to her: I love you too much to hurt you this much all the time. You deserve someone better suited for you. Good bye.

 

I know you won't do it but she really deserves it.

 

It's hard to imagine how messy you are. Maybe she is right to be upset maybe she is not. Men in general have a long range vision and won't notice details under their nose like a dirty sock and dust.

 

If you hire a cleaner she will vacuum and clean bathroom and kitchen but she won't be there to clean your hair in the sink after you shave or wipe your kitchen counter after you've made yourself a snack. Those are just things you need to think of.

 

Obviously your mental notes aren't working. Get yourself a board and fix it on your fridge and write your tasks there.

[LoveRefreshed]

Couldn't read five pages but OP: Do not marry this woman. I just got out of a relationship with a woman who was like this. Loved the **** out of me and could be so sweet, caring, loyal, genuine. However, she had this wicked temper and a controlling jealous side that eventually made me feel like I was constantly on egg shells man.

 

That is no way to live. I ended it, it was sad, I missed her for a bit, but honestly man, my quality of life improved and depression lifted. It was such a slow onset of that depressive fog, that I had no idea I was depressed.

[DreamLost]

Couldn't read five pages but OP: Do not marry this woman. I just got out of a relationship with a woman who was like this. Loved the **** out of me and could be so sweet, caring, loyal, genuine. However, she had this wicked temper and a controlling jealous side that eventually made me feel like I was constantly on egg shells man.

 

That is no way to live. I ended it, it was sad, I missed her for a bit, but honestly man, my quality of life improved and depression lifted. It was such a slow onset of that depressive fog, that I had no idea I was depressed.

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I know deep down that this is not right but she is my fiancee and I want to do everything I can to fix this. We have come a long way (8 years) and I have put everything I have into this relationship. Though I am not confident that I will be able to change her, I don't want to give up so easily.

[katiegrl]

OP....I am wondering now why you started this thread.

 

You're not gonna leave, that is clear.

Even though you know you should.

 

Give up *easily*? You have been trying to make this work for years for heaven's sake, the woman is dysfunctional, period. And perhaps mentally ill as well.

 

Did you start it just to vent?

 

If you insist on staying, get yourself into some therapy. Because there are some issues with you as well. Co-dependency, among others.

 

G'luck.

[testmeasure]

I guess it was never a problem because we weren't living together. I knew before we moved in that I need to improve on cleanliness. I just had no idea it will be this difficult.

 

You guys have been in a relationship for 8 years. You must have spent time together. Were you never in a kitchen with food and some of it got in the sink? She never saw you right after you had been doing an athletic activity before you got cleaned up? You never spent time at each other's place?

 

If you were both normal, and you were together 8 years, and this is so important to her, she would have been paying close attention to it any time you guys spent time together and probably would have even figured out ways to test you on it. If she saw anything she couldn't live with, she would have viewed it as a deal breaker and dumped you. That's Normal.

 

Let me give you an alternate explanation. People with "issues" who aren't normal often show great restraint in the first part of a relationship. This can go on for a couple months or a number of years. But it takes them a great deal of effort to maintain. How long they can maintain this depends on the amount of effort, whether they think they can get away with letting the crazy out, and whether the perceive anything to be gained from it.

 

Ok. Let's look at this. You transition to living together. What does that do to all 3 of those factors?

 

The amount of effort she has to put in to restrain herself skyrockets because of the increased proximity and shared responsibility for cleaning.

 

Whether she can get away with it may have also skyrockets because of the increased amount of time behind closed doors together. Also on the able to get away with it scale is your own level of commitment (which is now being used against you): Now the two of you have been together for a long time and you have a higher level of commitment to the relationship, as shown by living together. You are behind closed doors, and you're all in at this point, so now she can play some crazy cards.

 

If she is faced with ordinary minor messes, or a good faith effort that misses a single checkbox, those seemingly trivial things may be triggering tremendous trauma and agony. Suddenly the amount to be gained by unleashing the crazy to protect herself skyrockets.

 

Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? The simplest explanation is the best one. If she's normal and this is just something that's very important to her, it's very hard to understand why she didn't observe you or test you on this and then dump you. If she's normal and did wait this long, it's hard to explain her tactics and strategy for dealing with it. If she's not normal, it's very easy to understand why it's showing up exactly now and easy to explain her tactics and strategy for dealing with it. Occam's Razor.

 

I can totally understand, it has been a week since I have talked to her and I am worried that if I don't talk to her soon she will send through a message to tell me she wants to breakup. The thing is I really want to make things work between us and but I don't know what I need to/can do to fix this.

 

Tonight is supposed to be the family dinner and I really don't feel like I am up for it...

 

 

I'm sorry about the dinner. Not responding while you figure this out may end up being smart. If it means you reached a point where you realize your previous approach isn't working, it shows wisdom too.

 

I'm going to extract: "I don't know what I need to/can do to fix this."

 

If she's not normal, there are 3 levels to this:

 

(1) Ok. Here is where you are: You're dealing with reasons, words, and communication content. You're responding with problem solving and rational thought. If she's not normal, you can take all those things and put them in a trash can because they mean nothing. If you don't do that and you stay in this mode, you can re-read my previous post: 'the only thing you can count on is that you can't fix this by addressing the actual thing she's pointing at', other than that it's totally unpredictable and only has the potential to get worse for longer than you thought imaginable or end abruptly tomorrow.

 

(2) If she's not normal, here is where she is and what she wants: You need to accept blame for anything that's wrong and show that it's all your fault and that makes you feel horrible, awful, and terrible.

 

This might be an interesting test for you. Some time when she is upset, accept blame. Don't give any more communication content other than "it's all my fault". Don't even identify "what" is your fault. Don't go near why it's your fault. This communication is to be devoid of any and all content other than "You're right, it's all my fault." Nothing more. Then tell how this makes you feel. "I feel horrible and awful. I can't believe how bad I feel about this, it's all my fault." Don't explain why you feel that way or what you feel horrible or awful about. The only communication content is: "It's my fault." and "I feel really bad." Say only those two things without implying or saying anything else.

 

She's upset, as a consequence, it's your fault, and you feel awful too.

 

It's that simple. That's her way of dealing with the trauma she experiences when she sees a "mess". Words about the mess or the relationship or why this was one checkbox that got missed mean absolutely nothing.

 

(3) The previous answer (2) gives her what she wants. If normal rules applied, that would be the answer. But (2) is only true if she's not normal. So, normal rules don't apply. If she's not normal, giving her what she wants enables the behavior she uses to extract what she wants. Giving her what she wants may satisfy her in the moment. But in doing so, you only encourage her to get upset sooner, faster, over something even less. By satisfying the irrational, you encourage more of it. The twisted fact of (3) is that you're better off with (1) because (2) actually makes things worse. The real answer (3) would be don't even respond to any of her irrational behavior. If she reacts in an irrationally disproportionate way to a mess, watch her response come out, turn your back and go to another room. Don't engage or respond till she comes to you on a rational basis.

 

Why is this the answer? If you walk away from the crazy, she can no longer get away with it, and she no longer has anything to gain from it. Remember those 2 things from much earlier on? At this level, you're actually responding in a way that rationally counters and engages her the actual dynamics of her not-normal, emotion-driven irrationality.

 

Now that we're at the bottom, I want to encourage you to remember and reflect on how unsuccessful you have been at communication with her about this. Then I want you to go back and re-read this entire post with that in the front of your mind.

 

 

.

Edited February 2, 2016 by testmeasure

[Lorenza]

OP....I am wondering now why you started this thread.

 

You're not gonna leave, that is clear.

Even though you know you should.

 

Give up *easily*? You have been trying to make this work for years for heaven's sake, the woman is dysfunctional, period. And perhaps mentally ill as well.

 

Did you start it just to vent?

 

If you insist on staying, get yourself into some therapy. Because there are some issues with you as well. Co-dependency, among others.

 

G'luck.

 

Agree with Katie on this one. Seems to me that the OP has got some issues on his own and a very low self-esteem besides that. I don't mean to sound demeaning, but for a man to write things like: "she doesn't allow me to do this and that" like he's ready to put up with that and then claim he will do anything to stay with her after she's been showing 0 respect to his feeling and their engagement is... I don't know, just sad.

For your own sake, OP, hope that she's gonna let you go and that you will be strong enough not to collapse and stop thinking so low of yourself.

[DreamLost]

OP....I am wondering now why you started this thread.

 

You're not gonna leave, that is clear.

Even though you know you should.

 

Give up *easily*? You have been trying to make this work for years for heaven's sake, the woman is dysfunctional, period. And perhaps mentally ill as well.

 

Did you start it just to vent?

 

If you insist on staying, get yourself into some therapy. Because there are some issues with you as well. Co-dependency, among others.

 

G'luck.

 

You are right because I have not seriously considered letting go until now. I didn't realize how much this relationship has changed me until things start to get out of hand recently...I used to be a pretty confident and sunshine person, unlike what I am now...

 

Thanks, I really appreciate your advise. I will think about this and also get help from a therapist.

Edited February 2, 2016 by DreamLost

[testmeasure]

Seems to me that the OP has got some issues on his own and a very low self-esteem besides that. I don't mean to sound demeaning, but for a man to write things like: "she doesn't allow me to do this and that"

 

I used the word allowed a ton. That's how it felt. That's the effect of emotional abuse. You apparently don't get it.

 

Low self esteem? I had never failed anything in my life before my "event", which I won't call my failure. Even at the point of failure I didn't see my self as having low-self-esteem.

 

This is a really complicated thing.

 

The pattern people are sky-bombing with doesn't fit here. SRY People can be emotionally devastated by a relationship without having processed it. From there they can possibly figure it out and come to terms with it.

 

The mere fact that someone hasn't processed a failed relationship does NOT mean they deserve sky bombing. SRY TO ALL.

 

like he's ready to put up with that and then claim he will do anything to stay with her after she's been showing 0 respect to his feeling and their engagement is... I don't know, just sad.

 

 

.

Edited February 2, 2016 by testmeasure

[smackie9]

OP you are not the problem. It doesn't matter whether you were a neat freak or not, or if you stood up to her and shut her down, she will still have this behavior towards you...you are not the cause of it. SHE is the one that needs to see a therapist.

[Lorenza]

I used the word allowed a ton. That's how it felt. That's the effect of emotional abuse. You apparently don't get it.

 

Low self esteem? I had never failed anything in my life before my "event", which I won't call my failure. Even at the point of failure I didn't see my self as having low-self-esteem.

 

This is a really complicated thing.

 

The pattern people are sky-bombing with doesn't fit here. SRY People can be emotionally devastated by a relationship without having processed it. From there they can possibly figure it out and come to terms with it.

 

The mere fact that someone hasn't processed a failed relationship does NOT mean they deserve sky bombing. SRY TO ALL.

 

 

 

 

.

 

He sounds really depressed to me, as if he's confidence is totally crushed. I might be wrong but this is the conclusion I made as some stranger on a forum who read his thread. Sorry if its wrong.

What is sky bombing btw?

[testmeasure]

He sounds really depressed to me, as if he's confidence is totally crushed. I might be wrong but this is the conclusion I made as some stranger on a forum who read his thread. Sorry if its wrong.

What is sky bombing btw?

 

I agree. Emotional abuse would have that effect, particularly since he hasn't talked to her a while. Sort of. While he's actually with her, the effect would be more like the fear and anxiety of being at war. Which I expect is a very humbling thing, that I also takes a person a notch down on the totem pole. Being at war with your partner certainly does. But his low self esteem isn't the driving factor. It's a consequence of the hostility and unpredictability and the resulting fear and anxiety.

 

The word "allow" in particular shows the source. It shows the comparative relationship. He's not at the top of the totem pole. Her emotions are. He occupies a lower place and has been forced to accept that. Pointing to the fact that hey you occupy way, way too low a place isn't pointing to a cause. It's pointing to an outcome. It's her emotions that are running the show. I'm with you in that it's hard to understand how a person with high self esteem would let this happen. But it's like a frog being boiled. The emotionally abusive person is an expert for sensing when they can get away with the thing that they do and how much of it they can get away with.

 

I grabbed a couple words to try and say you were throwing random things from far away that weren't likely to hit target. If I said "dropping the wrong ordinance with heavy cloud cover" that would have captured what I was actually thinking. I didn't capture that very well at all. Thanks for making me stop and think about it.

Edited February 2, 2016 by testmeasure

[DreamLost]

I took a day off today to go to the countryside to hike and to think about things. I am feeling much more certain and confident about things now. Though I don't know if things will work out between us at the end but I believe I will make it. Thanks very much guys for helping out