Engagement fights

January 3, 2016

You guys have only been together a year, it's supposed to take two for the real person to emerge from the honeymoon period - use this time before the wedding wisely as I think you have inadvertently accelerated the process.

This. The OP is clearly uncomfortable with the very materialistic and financially entitled beliefs of his fiancee. I can't say that I blame him.

January 3, 2016

They have been quite aggressive about the fact that it is important for their status that it happens in a fancy venue.

You know what I find highly amusing, Manny?

That people who think they have a supposed 'status' to uphold need YOUR parents to help pay for that so-called 'status.'

What a bunch of self-important phonies you're marrying into.

January 3, 2016

Financial disagreements ruin more marriages then even infidelity. If you two can't get on the same page about this spending issue, don't get married because you will only end up in divorce court.

January 3, 2016

They have offered to subsidise whatever share my parents can't afford but my parents have their own feelings and do not want to accept money from others as they have their pride.

I was with you until you said that your fiancee's parents have offered to pay for whatever your parents can't afford. If they are willing to pay for it, and your fiancée wants it, I don't see how you have much room to complain. Of course the money would be better spent on something else, but it's not your money. And if YOU accepting money from your in-laws offends your parents, or hurts their pride, I think they need to suck it up. It's not their wedding, it's yours and your fiancee's and your fiancée wants this. It doesn't sound like spending your in-law's money on a house down payment is going to be an option at all anyway.

If it's just that you don't want a big wedding, you should have discussed this with your fiancée before the parents ever got involved. Now that they are involved, I don't think there's much you can do. Either call off the wedding, or have the big wedding that your fiancée wants and her parents are willing to pay for.

Edited January 3, 2016 by Gemma1

January 4, 2016

I was with you until you said that your fiancee's parents have offered to pay for whatever your parents can't afford. If they are willing to pay for it, and your fiancée wants it, I don't see how you have much room to complain. Of course the money would be better spent on something else, but it's not your money. And if YOU accepting money from your in-laws offends your parents, or hurts their pride, I think they need to suck it up. It's not their wedding, it's yours and your fiancee's and your fiancée wants this. It doesn't sound like spending your in-law's money on a house down payment is going to be an option at all anyway.

If it's just that you don't want a big wedding, you should have discussed this with your fiancée before the parents ever got involved. Now that they are involved, I don't think there's much you can do. Either call off the wedding, or have the big wedding that your fiancée wants and her parents are willing to pay for.

Where are the OP's wishes in all of this? Isn't it his wedding too?

If the fiancee's parents can get involved, I don't see why the OP's parents can't have their wishes respected as well.

January 4, 2016

Hi Gemma1

Maybe I haven't been clear in my explanation.

My fiancee's family have their sights et on a couple of fancy venues which would accommodate all our guests. There is a wedding ceremony in the early afternoon followed by evening reception. They are planning on inviting the same number of guests as us to the wedding and double the number of our guests to the evening part.

My parents initial suggestion before we knew the costs of these venues they wanted was to split the venue hire between us and then for them to pay for the wedding part and for us to the pay for the reception (my fiancée and I would plan the reception together). I initially had an issue with the reception being a large function but let it go as it was her family being invited.

So as an example lets say that it came back as the quote for the whole day was $30,000 with the evening costing $21,000. Their part is $10,000 for the same. My parents worked out the likely projection and it is above what they can afford. Her side suggested splitting the costs down the middle but it still a huge amount of money which still expensive for my folks and more than I am comfortable with. my parents can afford $10,000 for example. They suggested we pay that and they would pay $20,000 for the whole day. They themselves cannot afford both the wedding & reception. Knowing her parents that would take away any input from me and my family as they would want to control everything.

As a compromise we suggested they do the wedding where they want and they can spend what they like. We would host a reception another day at a less costly venue for all the guests they wanted to invite and it would more affordable for us. They have refused this point blank as the venue we would be able to afford is beneath what they expect and what they believe they're daughter deserves. My fiancée has also taken exception to some places I have suggested my parents could afford. I have a feeling her folks don't believe we could put on a reception that is up to their standards. I don't want a huge wedding or reception but am willing to accept their numbers as they have a large family. Surely there should be some middle ground but it appears to be either their way or no way.

Edited January 4, 2016 by manny1

January 4, 2016

I think my stance would be to reply "this is above our budget" to each and every suggestion which your parents cannot afford.

I'd also do my best to keep my parents out of this. You know what your parents can afford and you need to go in to bat for them. They shouldn't be forced to try and sort out a wedding with your future inlaws. Just take to the table what you parents can do and refuse all negotiation.

January 4, 2016

Thanks for the message.

Yeah I've taken my parents out of the discussions as they don't deserve this hassle. I'm meeting with her her folks soon and will put everything on the line and see how it goes. I'm just fed up with it all and want an answer one way or the other. If we can't agree on a small step then what hope does any future relationship have. Things have already soured between the respective parents as it is.

January 4, 2016

Thanks for the message.
Yeah I've taken my parents out of the discussions as they don't deserve this hassle. I'm meeting with her her folks soon and will put everything on the line and see how it goes. I'm just fed up with it all and want an answer one way or the other. If we can't agree on a small step then what hope does any future relationship have. Things have already soured between the respective parents as it is.

Good for you. And glad to know you're keeping your parents away from all this. You're seeing some mighty big red flags at present and I'm pleased that you're taking heed.

January 4, 2016

Good for you. And glad to know you're keeping your parents away from all this. You're seeing some mighty big red flags at present and I'm pleased that you're taking heed.

I agree. Many people will ignore red flags during their engagement and then wonder what happened after their divorces.

January 4, 2016

Hi Gemma1
Maybe I haven't been clear in my explanation.
My fiancee's family have their sights et on a couple of fancy venues which would accommodate all our guests. There is a wedding ceremony in the early afternoon followed by evening reception. They are planning on inviting the same number of guests as us to the wedding and double the number of our guests to the evening part.

My parents initial suggestion before we knew the costs of these venues they wanted was to split the venue hire between us and then for them to pay for the wedding part and for us to the pay for the reception (my fiancée and I would plan the reception together). I initially had an issue with the reception being a large function but let it go as it was her family being invited.
So as an example lets say that it came back as the quote for the whole day was $30,000 with the evening costing $21,000. Their part is $10,000 for the same. My parents worked out the likely projection and it is above what they can afford. Her side suggested splitting the costs down the middle but it still a huge amount of money which still expensive for my folks and more than I am comfortable with. my parents can afford $10,000 for example. They suggested we pay that and they would pay $20,000 for the whole day. They themselves cannot afford both the wedding & reception. Knowing her parents that would take away any input from me and my family as they would want to control everything.
As a compromise we suggested they do the wedding where they want and they can spend what they like. We would host a reception another day at a less costly venue for all the guests they wanted to invite and it would more affordable for us. They have refused this point blank as the venue we would be able to afford is beneath what they expect and what they believe they're daughter deserves. My fiancée has also taken exception to some places I have suggested my parents could afford. I have a feeling her folks don't believe we could put on a reception that is up to their standards. I don't want a huge wedding or reception but am willing to accept their numbers as they have a large family. Surely there should be some middle ground but it appears to be either their way or no way.

The bolded part is the most important. This is just a long way of saying what you already said previously, which is that they are willing to pay for what your parents can't afford so that they (and your fiancee) can have the wedding they want. It's not just them that wants this. It's your fiancée as well. It sounds like your legitimate gripe is that you think allowing them to pay for this much of the wedding will give them control over it. But again, this is what your fiancee wants. It's not just your wedding.

For ridiculous people with ridiculous priorities, your future in-laws actually ARE compromising. They seem to realize their wishes are out of your budget, and they are willing to pick up the slack for something tha both they AND their daughter want.

It sounds like you're just marrying the wrong girl.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Gemma1

January 4, 2016

They have offered to subsidize whatever share my parents can't afford but my parents have their own feelings and do not want to accept money from others as they have their pride.

I was also with you until you said this. They are willing to pay and you force them to have a lesser wedding because your parents have pride? Get out of here.

They've argued with me saying that didn't I know what would be expected of wedding arrangements when I was dating their daughter. It makes me wonder what other expectations they have.

And it makes me wonder whether you are the type of guy who would not turn up the heat during a cold day, and when your wife (or parents) offer to help if you can't afford the heat bill, you say "No, get a blanket ... I can't have a higher temp in the house and I refuse to accept your money either, as I have my pride." Jesus, dude.

It's making me question my feelings for her.

If you can question your feelings with one issue, then you have bigger problems my friend.

My parents initial suggestion before we knew the costs of these venues they wanted was to split the venue hire between us and then for them to pay for the wedding part and for us to the pay for the reception (my fiancée and I would plan the reception together).

So it was your parents who suggested the contribution, not even them.

I have a feeling her folks don't believe we could put on a reception that is up to their standards. I don't want a huge wedding or reception but am willing to accept their numbers as they have a large family. Surely there should be some middle ground but it appears to be either their way or no way

I wouldn't either. It seems like they will have a nice place like Ritz and you want to take the same guests to Ramada or Motel 6. It appears that way anyway, from all those money talks and can't afford or uncomfortable talks. In all honesty, it doesn't seem like you can afford this girl or marriage at all. You can't marry a girl who is used to shop at Saks 5th Ave and then force her to dress at TJMaxx and when her parents say, let's cover it if you can't, say "No I can't accept that either. She has to go to TJMaxx." You kidding me? You are being selfish and controlling and you need a reality check. The bottom line is you can't 'cant-afford' and then 'have pride' at the same time, when they offer to cover whatever you can't afford. You can't have it both ways buddy. You are being a cheapass, plain and simple, and I'd like to think "she's got the wrong guy" not "you've got the wrong girl."

January 4, 2016

Thanks for the replies. Yes you're both right and I haven't really looked at it form their point of view. Fine if they can afford to go to a high class place then by all means pay for the whole lot and I'll go along and not say a word. The issue is they can't afford it outright without contribution from our side. My main issue is its not fair to want a fancy venue and not be able to afford it and then to turn around and force my family to put up the rest. The amount they're asking for the venue alone is the bulk of my entire budget for the wedding; that means I would have to borrow to pay for my clothes etc. I would gladly pay half the costs of they were reasonable and not forcing anyone to borrow. If you can't afford the ritz don't force someone against their will to help you out as you want to show off.

Fine it makes me a cheap ass but I'm being honest from the outset about what I can afford and not pretending so as to show other people.

Mid way through discussions they've thrown it up that we have to contribute to a pre wedding party that they want to have. Why should we have to pay for this as it is something that they want not us. When we've said we can't afford that and a wedding its been told to my face it's because of my folks they can't have the party now.

I've had phone calls from her parents saying that even their daughter won't have a final say in proceedings so what chance will I have. Even with preliminary discussions about the events its been about what they want, no one even bothered to ask me. Does that mean it's all about the bride or who ever has the most cash? It's my day as well.

Edited January 4, 2016 by manny1

January 4, 2016

They are planning on inviting the same number of guests as us to the wedding and double the number of our guests to the evening part..

Stop right that. That plan -- limited number of people to the important part (the marriage ceremony) and a larger number of people to the party is rude in & of itself. It comes off as a major present grab.

Etiquette mandates that the people invited to the marriage are invited to the after party as a way of saying thank you to them for attending the ceremony. You then treat them to food & drink.

Having different classes of guests who are only invited to parts of celebration is awful. Send your FI & her family to a website like www.theknot.com if you don't believe me.

. Fine if they can afford to go to a high class place then by all means pay for the whole lot and I'll go along and not say a word. The issue is they can't afford it outright without contribution from our side. My main issue is its not fair to want a fancy venue and not be able to afford it and then to turn around and force my family to put up the rest. The amount they're asking for the venue alone is the bulk of my entire budget for the wedding; that means I would have to borrow to pay for my clothes etc. I would gladly pay half the costs of they were reasonable and not forcing anyone to borrow. If you can't afford the ritz don't force someone against their will to help you out as you want to show off.

Mid way through discussions they've thrown it up that we have to contribute to a pre wedding party that they want to have. Why should we have to pay for this as it is something that they want not us. When we've said we can't afford that and a wedding its been told to my face it's because of my folks they can't have the party now.

I've had phone calls from her parents saying that even their daughter won't have a final say in proceedings so what chance will I have. Even with preliminary discussions about the events its been about what they want, no one even bothered to ask me. Does that mean it's all about the bride or who ever has the most cash? It's my day as well.

These people sound awful. They need to live within their means. If they can't do that it's inappropriate for them to expect others to pay for it. Unless your FI is willing to stand up to her parents & tell them to stop dictating what other people have to spend, you really can't marry this woman. It will be a disaster & you two will spend your whole lives in debt trying to "keep up with the Jones" to make her parents happy. That is insane.

To some extent weddings can become all about who has the cash. That was what I meant about the Golden Rule. However, that implies that the decision maker is paying for the entire thing without a contribution from anyone else. Then yes, your wedding becomes a party somebody else is throwing in your honor & you are simply along for the ride. Unfortunately your FILs want all the control but are refusing to take all the responsibility & their daughter isn't mature enough or perhaps not committed to you enough to tell them to stop. Until she is, this marriage is doomed.

January 4, 2016

I was also with you until you said this. They are willing to pay and you force them to have a lesser wedding because your parents have pride? Get out of here.

And it makes me wonder whether you are the type of guy who would not turn up the heat during a cold day, and when your wife (or parents) offer to help if you can't afford the heat bill, you say "No, get a blanket ... I can't have a higher temp in the house and I refuse to accept your money either, as I have my pride." Jesus, dude.

If you can question your feelings with one issue, then you have bigger problems my friend.

So it was your parents who suggested the contribution, not even them.

I wouldn't either. It seems like they will have a nice place like Ritz and you want to take the same guests to Ramada or Motel 6. It appears that way anyway, from all those money talks and can't afford or uncomfortable talks. In all honesty, it doesn't seem like you can afford this girl or marriage at all. You can't marry a girl who is used to shop at Saks 5th Ave and then force her to dress at TJMaxx and when her parents say, let's cover it if you can't, say "No I can't accept that either. She has to go to TJMaxx." You kidding me? You are being selfish and controlling and you need a reality check. The bottom line is you can't 'cant-afford' and then 'have pride' at the same time, when they offer to cover whatever you can't afford. You can't have it both ways buddy. You are being a cheapass, plain and simple, and I'd like to think "she's got the wrong guy" not "you've got the wrong girl."

I can't see what's wrong with grown adults handling their own financial obligations. Parents deserve to enjoy their money once their kids are adults and they aren't always going to be there to support their adult children's wishes.

When my husband and I were poor, we never accepted a dime from either set of parents. We felt that we were responsible for raising our station in life and we hated the idea of begging our parents for money. We also knew that accepting money or any other kind of assistance with our parents would come with strings attached. We preferred to have our freedom.

Oh and I grew up in affluence while my husband grew up poor. I learned to adjust to a lower standard of living when I left home. I was also raised to work for whatever I wanted instead of waiting for my parents to get things for me. Now that my husband and I are in a much better financial position, we are living the kind of life that I was raised in. The OP's fiance sounds immature and spoiled; the kind of woman who runs to her parents for money when she can't afford what she wants.

I agree that it does seem like the OP cannot afford a wife like his fiancee. I don't think he is cheap; he is smart enough to focus on home ownership rather than throwing away money on a wedding. Too many people spend thousands on a wedding and then go home to their rentals; they don't know how to prioritize. You don't know if the OP was suggesting a serious downgrade like Motel 6 compared to the Ritz; there are midrange venues that are still quite lovely.

January 4, 2016

Your family is right. Don't be afraid of walking away - assuming you really are capable of it - it will not kill you.

Those fights are a glimpse of what your future will be if you choose to proceed with her.

Do you want to live your life, grinding yourself into an early grave to keep up with the joneses?

Do you value your life, at all?

The wedding shouldn't be the most important part. Living together and raising a family should be and if you are already fighting on unimportant things, you're off to a bad start that cannot be recovered from.

January 4, 2016

I'm not cheap, I come from a middle class family but I've seen how hard my folks had to work to get where they are today and are able to give me and my sisters all the opportunities they didn't have.

I want the wedding to be a nice one for all who come and for everyone to have great memories. It doesn't mean that being forced into a 5* venue means a great wedding or happy marriage.

I have suggested on multiple occasions that they do what they want for the wedding and my family will pay for a party at a decent 4* hotel or event hall (definitely not a motel 6!). I've budgeted and could easily afford the venue and then have plenty to spend on food,decoration, drinks, music etc for all the guests they want to invite even if it is more than ours. And all I've gotten in return is that these venues aren't 5*, their guests will not approve or that it is in a part of town that is not of their liking! I can't get anywhere. A venue doesn't mean I would treat their guests any better or worse, I would always make them feel welcome and do my utmost to make sure they leave with great memories.

"Don't be afraid of walking away - assuming you really are capable of it - it will not kill you."

This is what my family are telling me, that my life may well be a constant battle to provide things which her folks believe she is worthy of. And maybe you're right I can't afford this kind've wife right now. And even if I could, I believe in spending in moderation (doesn't mean I am tight or don't know how to enjoy myself. It means I would rather save on the wedding so we could have a nicer place to live or go on an extra holiday). Where is my value in all of this? She tells me she loves me but she can turn in an instant whenever I disagree about the wedding or costs. It's like she believes that I don't value her if I'm not willing for fork out crazy money.

Edited January 4, 2016 by manny1

January 4, 2016

"Don't be afraid of walking away - assuming you really are capable of it - it will not kill you."

This is what my family are telling me, that my life may well be a constant battle to provide things which her folks believe she is worthy of. And maybe you're right I can't afford this kind've wife right now. And even if I could, I believe in spending in moderation (doesn't mean I am tight or don't know how to enjoy myself. It means I would rather save on the wedding so we could have a nicer place to live or go on an extra holiday). Where is my value in all of this? She tells me she loves me but she can turn in an instant whenever I disagree about the wedding or costs. It's like she believes that I don't value her if I'm not willing for fork out crazy money.

If this has any prayer of working you need major premarital counseling to discuss your different relationships with money. Otherwise you are doomed.

See if she's willing to compromise. It sounds like you are. So if this doesn't work, it's not your fault.

January 4, 2016

I'm not cheap, I come from a middle class family but I've seen how hard my folks had to work to get where they are today and are able to give me and my sisters all the opportunities they didn't have.
I want the wedding to be a nice one for all who come and for everyone to have great memories. It doesn't mean that being forced into a 5* venue means a great wedding or happy marriage.
I have suggested on multiple occasions that they do what they want for the wedding and my family will pay for a party at a decent 4* hotel or event hall (definitely not a motel 6!). I've budgeted and could easily afford the venue and then have plenty to spend on food,decoration, drinks, music etc for all the guests they want to invite even if it is more than ours. And all I've gotten in return is that these venues aren't 5*, their guests will not approve or that it is in a part of town that is not of their liking! I can't get anywhere. A venue doesn't mean I would treat their guests any better or worse, I would always make them feel welcome and do my utmost to make sure they leave with great memories.

"Don't be afraid of walking away - assuming you really are capable of it - it will not kill you."

This is what my family are telling me, that my life may well be a constant battle to provide things which her folks believe she is worthy of. And maybe you're right I can't afford this kind've wife right now. And even if I could, I believe in spending in moderation (doesn't mean I am tight or don't know how to enjoy myself. It means I would rather save on the wedding so we could have a nicer place to live or go on an extra holiday). Where is my value in all of this? She tells me she loves me but she can turn in an instant whenever I disagree about the wedding or costs. It's like she believes that I don't value her if I'm not willing for fork out crazy money.

Most of us like nice things. I certainly do too. However, some people worship at the altar of the almighty dollar and base their happiness on looking rich. Your fiancee is one of those types. She seems like she would complain to her parents if you didn't buy her something that she wanted.

I wanted a boat because we live very close to a bay. I found out that we would need to purchase an SUV or a truck to haul a boat. I realized that we didn't need a larger car and buying a bigger car just to have a boat would be completely ridiculous. Taking risks with our warranty by hauling a large load with our small car would be foolish as well. My husband and I compromised by buying a canoe instead.

You don't seem cheap to me. You seem like a grounded and intelligent young man who doesn't believe in wasting money on things that don't matter. Your family is telling your some of the same things that strangers online are saying. That should be a sign for you.

A four star hotel can still be quite beautiful because four star is a high rating for venues and accommodations. Your in-laws and your fiancee are being inflexible and silly. I couldn't marry into a family like this but this is ultimately your decision.

January 5, 2016

Manny, I'm going to be blunt: I'd bail on this one. Sorry, but this whole "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality that your fiancé and future in-laws exhibit is exhausting and will put you in a position of always being made to feel "less" in relation to what they feel they "are" status-wise and what their little darling "deserves." I wouldn't advise this if your fiancé had your back, but from your posts she sounds just as superficial and entitled as her parents. Your life with her will be one big spinning hamster wheel and it doesn't have to be like that. Sorry, but I don't see this ending up well for you long-term.

January 5, 2016

Manny, I'm going to be blunt: I'd bail on this one. Sorry, but this whole "keeping up with the Joneses" mentality that your fiancé and future in-laws exhibit is exhausting and will put you in a position of always being made to feel "less" in relation to what they feel they "are" status-wise and what their little darling "deserves." I wouldn't advise this if your fiancé had your back, but from your posts she sounds just as superficial and entitled as her parents. Your life with her will be one big spinning hamster wheel and it doesn't have to be like that. Sorry, but I don't see this ending up well for you long-term.

This. What makes this even worse is that the OP is willing to pay for a nice venue but he is being told that it isn't enough. I feel like the OP is too grounded and mature for his fiancee.

January 6, 2016

I was going to side with the minority opinion on this one---her parents have money and are willing to pay for it so who cares if it's impractical---but then I saw the part where they said they don't even care what their daughter's wishes are. These people sound insane. I would strongly advise extensive premarital counseling for you and your fiancee to discuss your individual priorities and how you intend to cope with similar adversity in the future, because you're going to need to have each other's backs if you want your relationship to work.

January 9, 2016

I've had phone calls from her parents saying that even their daughter won't have a final say in proceedings so what chance will I have.

Next time they telly you that, you respond that you have a final say as to whether or not a wedding happens AT ALL.

Come on dude, grow a set.

January 23, 2016

Thanks everyone for your advice.

I went and spoke to her parents again and said that maybe they should host the wedding themselves and my family will host the reception where we can afford. They agreed and then got a quote from a 5* venue of their choosing for both events, again which was too expensive for us.

I again told them we will host the reception in another 4* venue with a caterer we can afford.

Now my fiancee has been guilt tripping me saying that because my family are being awkward her parents will know have to pay for the wedding and reception in a 5* venue of their choosing and will have to spend excessive money and borrow for it. It's total madness! They are willing to spend money they don't have so that they can have the reception in a fancy venue just so that we do not humiliate them in front of their guests by taking them to a 4*!

I've tried talking to my fiancee but all she does is guilt trip me and argue by throwing things back in my face. I've just about had enough, this doesn't feel like love to me. I'm in the good books if I agree with them and suddenly tossed aside if I don't

January 24, 2016

Hate to say it, but you've got a view of your future happening here. If they are like this with the wedding, what will they be like with the grandkids?

Edited to add: it would be one thing if her parents were bossy but she acted as a team with you. But the fact that she's siding against you and using guilt trips is really quite alarming

Edited January 24, 2016 by basil67

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