Will I ever find a guy who accepts my shyness?

January 1, 2016

I'm tired of guys using the "shyness" as an excuse on women! Seriously, since when in the heck do women wear the pants in a relationship??? What, so females are suppose to be loud, crude, dancing on bars with her titties hanging out? Men are suppose to be talkative and outgoing, women are suppose to be passive and lady like.

Usually when a guy calls me out on my shyness, I NEXT them. There is nothing wrong with being shy. People treat shyness like its a disease or something. There are guys that can easily see my shyness/call me out and there are some that they either see it or don't mind it/don't call me out on it. And simply when they don't call me out on it, I feel at ease and comfortable. Or they don't see my shyness at all because they make me come out of my shell....

Exactly. Now that I think about it, it's the guys who make me feel uncomfortable with my shyness who I clam up around. Or guys I'm genuinely not interested in.

January 1, 2016

I think you are oberanalyzing. Who cares why a guy doesn't like you? Sure, you can always work on improving you dating skills but in general, don't let people bring you down. You just need one man and if you consistently put yourself out there you'll find him.

Also, I think women talk way too much about the relationship and way too early. The best course of action before yo are a couple (and to some extent even after that) is to say nothing , observe what he DOES (how often he asks you out, do you become exclusive without you having to ask, does he introduce you to people important in his life, does he treat you well), not sleep with men until you are a couple (NOT on the second date) and be chill. Drop the guys who don't ask you to be their girlfriend within 3-4 months and don't do the above . Talk less, chill more and look for your own interests.

You seem like a wonderful person and I hope you find love in 2016!

Thanks for the encouragement! I agree that I need to fix my habit of rushing things along. About the sex issue: is it still the case that it's considered normal for a woman to wait to have sex until exclusivity is agreed upon? My ex and a few other guys I've spoken about this with say that if a girl hasn't had sex with them by the third date they give up, assuming she isn't interested, and stop seeing her. They also say they wouldn't even consider getting exclusive with a girl until they had sex with her first. Ten years ago when I was 22 and dating, I feel like the climate was very different and it was easier for women to get away with stalling intimacy. I remember getting exclusive with a guy after five dates who I had only gone down on (after our fifth date), and waiting 7 or 8 dates until we had full sex (I think my period contributed, but still). At the time it seemed normal and I didn't feel at all pressured by him, but it seems like times have changed with the prevalence of hook up culture. It's a bit like Brave New World now. Consider that a desirable guy can fire up Tinder and have essentially a free escort that night. Of course not all women are that easy, but there's been a general shift towards sexual looseness. Waiting 5-7 dates for sex seems like an eternity to me now and it's hard for me to imagine a guy sticking around that long. Maybe I'm wrong? That would certainly be my ideal and lately I've been jumping into sex sooner because I feel like I'm expected to.

Edited January 1, 2016 by tuxedo cat

January 1, 2016

You have to sit back and observe men and find a good one then pounce on him.

January 1, 2016

Thanks for the encouragement! I agree that I need to fix my habit of rushing things along. About the sex issue: is it still the case that it's considered normal for a woman to wait to have sex until exclusivity is agreed upon? My ex and a few other guys I've spoken about this with say that if a girl hasn't had sex with them by the third date they give up, assuming she isn't interested, and stop seeing her. They also say they wouldn't even consider getting exclusive with a girl until they had sex with her first. Ten years ago when I was 22 and dating, I feel like the climate was very different and it was easier for women to get away with stalling intimacy. I remember getting exclusive with a guy after five dates who I had only gone down on (after our fifth date), and waiting 7 or 8 dates until we had full sex (I think my period contributed, but still). At the time it seemed normal and I didn't feel at all pressured by him, but it seems like times have changed with the prevalence of hook up culture. It's a bit like Brave New World now. Consider that a desirable guy can fire up Tinder and have essentially a free escort that night. Of course not all women are that easy, but there's been a general shift towards sexual looseness. Waiting 5-7 dates for sex seems like an eternity to me now and it's hard for me to imagine a guy sticking around that long. Maybe I'm wrong? That would certainly be my ideal and lately I've been jumping into sex sooner because I feel like I'm expected to.

Would you consider your ex and those other guys the sort of guy you should be focusing on? Their example is informative in that it tells you what NOT to look for in a man.

Yes, serious courters still take their time, if they choose. Trust that, if he's the one, he'll be interested without early sex as a hook. He may even be more interested.

January 1, 2016

You have to sit back and observe men and find a good one then pounce on him.

I like this!

Yes, let the men reveal themselves to you. All the while, you are relaxed and charming--because you're not stressing it. The burden is on them to reveal their worth to you.

You'll be more attractive to them, too, because of your relaxed spirit.

January 1, 2016

I like this!

Yes, let the men reveal themselves to you. All the while, you are relaxed and charming--because you're not stressing it. The burden is on them to reveal their worth to you.

You'll be more attractive to them, too, because of your relaxed spirit.

Thank you but I meant something slightly different. I think she already did what you described and he didn't like that.

I feel it's better when you don't even go out with a guy until you KNOW you like him. And yes that would disqualify online dating.

January 1, 2016

The problem is that you're looking at dating from the wrong angle. You care more about what they want , what they think, and what they expect. This will be very difficult to fix. You have to put yourself in the position of the chooser. You decide what's best for YOU and you choose a man based on what he can give you.

What do you mean by desirable? Good looking? Good looks only will not take you beyond a hook up. Why would you want to serve as an escort for some douche face guy just because he is good looking?

I know dating is scary and hard. It is critical to go to therapy and/ or do whatever you can to raise your self esteem and stand strong with your boundaries. Those guys you speak of are not "desirable", quite the opposite. Including your exes. A man who cares and will be a good partner will treat you well from the beginning, will not pressure you about anything , sex or anything else. Close your eyes and imagine what type of relationship you want to have 10 years from now, what kind of partner, and see if those "desirable" guys could ever fulfill that role. Look for kindness first and look out for yourself in the dating jungle.

January 1, 2016

Thank you but I meant something slightly different. I think she already did what you described and he didn't like that.

I feel it's better when you don't even go out with a guy until you KNOW you like him. And yes that would disqualify online dating.

I agree with that, too. Put my comments in the context of men you meet and interact with naturally, and that is how I intended them.

I think a shy person would be MUCH better off avoiding OLD, and making deeper connections with people you see day-to-day so that your personality has a chance to unveil naturally.

January 1, 2016

Thanks for the encouragement! About the sex issue: is it still the case that it's considered normal for a woman to wait to have sex until exclusivity is agreed upon? My ex and a few other guys I've spoken about this with say that if a girl hasn't had sex with them by the third date they give up, assuming she isn't interested, and stop seeing her. They also say they wouldn't even consider getting exclusive with a girl until they had sex with her first.

Yeah I see that here on LS a lot too, you need to not pay any attention to that. If YOU need to wait longer, then that's what you need to do!! If the guy needed to have sex by the 3rd date and that's not in your comfort zone he wasn't the guy for you anyway. I mean if it IS in your comfort zone then go for it but NOT because you think all guys will ditch you if you don't!!!

January 1, 2016

My ex and a few other guys I've spoken about this with say that if a girl hasn't had sex with them by the third date they give up, assuming she isn't interested, and stop seeing her. They also say they wouldn't even consider getting exclusive with a girl until they had sex with her first.

All of the successful relationships I've had, we had sex on the 2nd or 3rd date. Anytime it's gone longer, it didn't go much longer and that was the end of it. I don't strictly adhere to the 3 date rule but some men do. I've also never gone exclusive until after we've had sex. I think the problem may be that a lot of women don't know how to convey their interest without being physical and guys don't think girls are interested until they do get physical. Which leads to sex.

January 1, 2016

You do sound like a lovely woman.

Please bare in mind that relationships and emotional connections aside...most men will have sex with any woman as much as possible, as soon as possible and as easily as possible. If a woman walked in now and offered it to me now...I would go for it...and this goes for most hours, of most days, 12 months of the year.

I am not saying that there is never an emotional attachment or relationship...but I am saying that it is not essential to most guys.

Maybe think about what you were telling him. By sleeping with a guy early, he thinks that you are not particularly inhibited or guarded with sex and you don't care who you give it out to and you are not worried about giving it to him when he wants it. By sleeping with a guy after he has given you the cold shoulder like he has, he thinks that it doesn't matter if he treats you badly, he can call you whenever he chooses if he is feeling horny.

It may sound harsh, but please remember that deep down, relationships aside, men are animals programmed to mate with as many women as possible...as often as possible.

...how you manage this knowledge is up to you.

January 1, 2016

Sex after 3 dates is absurd to me, esp if the first date was the first meet (as is typically the case with OLD).

I'm not saying it's wrong for others, but it wouldn't work for me. I'm very sexual, but need a level of trust and connection to enjoy sex. Casual sex is ok, but still need that level of trust and connection. I know what I like, and I wouldn't pretend to like something else to keep a guy around. Really, what would be the point of that? I'd maybe keep the guy around...but the wrong guy.

The most important thing is to accept and trust yourself. How do you feel about early sex, Tuxedo Cat? Do you have good sexual experiences? Feel good about the decision afterward? Feel it's a positive step in the dating process for you?

January 1, 2016

You do sound like a lovely woman.

Please bear in mind that relationships and emotional connections aside...most men will have sex with any woman as much as possible, as soon as possible and as easily as possible. If a woman walked in now and offered it to me now...I would go for it...and this goes for most hours, of most days, 12 months of the year.

I am not saying that there is never an emotional attachment or relationship...but I am saying that it is not essential to most guys.

Maybe think about what you were telling him. By sleeping with a guy early, he thinks that you are not particularly inhibited or guarded with sex and you don't care who you give it out to and you are not worried about giving it to him when he wants it. By sleeping with a guy after he has given you the cold shoulder like he has, he thinks that it doesn't matter if he treats you badly, he can call you whenever he chooses if he is feeling horny.

It may sound harsh, but please remember that deep down, relationships aside, men are animals programmed to mate with as many women as possible...as often as possible.

...how you proceed with this knowledge is up to you.

January 1, 2016

The problem is that you're looking at dating from the wrong angle. You care more about what they want , what they think, and what they expect. This will be very difficult to fix. You have to put yourself in the position of the chooser. You decide what's best for YOU and you choose a man based on what he can give you.

What do you mean by desirable? Good looking? Good looks only will not take you beyond a hook up. Why would you want to serve as an escort for some douche face guy just because he is good looking?

I know dating is scary and hard. It is critical to go to therapy and/ or do whatever you can to raise your self esteem and stand strong with your boundaries. Those guys you speak of are not "desirable", quite the opposite. Including your exes. A man who cares and will be a good partner will treat you well from the beginning, will not pressure you about anything , sex or anything else. Close your eyes and imagine what type of relationship you want to have 10 years from now, what kind of partner, and see if those "desirable" guys could ever fulfill that role. Look for kindness first and look out for yourself in the dating jungle.

I definitely agree that I need to shift my focus to what I want. But how does a woman who is meeting a guy for the first time and not sure whether she likes him yet demonstrate that she's still interested in getting to know him better? Most of the guys I met through OLD said they thought I wasn't interested on our first date. I guess my cautiousness came off low interest. From speaking to older people, there was a time when it was expected that a girl would be somewhat coy and aloof on a first date. Because the woman had more to lose in making a poor choice in partner (biological clocks and all), it was the guy's responsibility to prove his worth.

The responses from guys in this thread show how much times have changed with greater equality between the genders. I've noticed a lot of women now feel pressured to really perform on a first date, even if they're uncertain about a guy. I'm not saying I'm a cold fish at all - I smile, I'm curious, I ask guys questions about themselves, and I'm responsive - but at the end of the day it's a blind date and I can only let my guard down so much. Maybe I should think of it as trying to have a good time with a stranger with the expectation that I may never see them again? Just go in with no expectations and reflect later, after the date on whether I like the guy? OLD is still very new to me so perhaps with time I'll feel more comfortable.

Edited January 1, 2016 by tuxedo cat

January 1, 2016

All of the successful relationships I've had, we had sex on the 2nd or 3rd date. Anytime it's gone longer, it didn't go much longer and that was the end of it. I don't strictly adhere to the 3 date rule but some men do. I've also never gone exclusive until after we've had sex. I think the problem may be that a lot of women don't know how to convey their interest without being physical and guys don't think girls are interested until they do get physical. Which leads to sex.

If you don't mind my asking, how old are you and how did you meet these women you had successful relationships with?

January 1, 2016

I definitely agree that I need to shift my focus to what I want. But how does a woman who is meeting a guy for the first time and not sure whether she likes him yet demonstrate that she's still interested in getting to know him better? Most of the guys I met through OLD said they thought I wasn't interested on our first date. I guess my cautiousness came off low interest. From speaking to older people, there was a time when it was expected that a girl would be somewhat coy and aloof on a first date. Because the woman had more to lose in making a poor choice in partner (biological clocks and all), it was the guy's responsibility to prove his worth.

The responses from guys in this thread show how much times have changed with greater equality between the genders. I've noticed a lot of women now feel pressured to perform on a first date, even if they're uncertain about a guy. I'm not saying I'm a cold fish at all - I smile, I'm curious, I ask guys questions about themselves, and I'm responsive - but at the end of the day it's a blind date and I can only let my guard down so much. Maybe I should think of it as trying to have a good time with someone with the expectation that I may never see them again? Just go in with no expectations and reflect later, after the date on whether I like the guy? OLD is still very new to me so maybe with time I'll feel more comfortable.

YES to the bolded. Exactly. Consider it a study of sorts--if you meet 20 guys, you'll notice differences and you'll learn what you like and don't like.

Also, figure out what you want. Do you know any couples you'd model after? Any men who you think, "I want a man like that"? It's good to be able to identify the core traits that make a good partner and husband, and screen for those without being distracted by the fluff, or worrying about the opinions of those who are NOT goal material.

January 1, 2016

Yes, in the beginning just do nothing. Being on the date with the man means your interested. Going on s second date means you're interested. Do nothing, he needs to prove himself to you, not the other way around . You say yes to the date, you smile, you're nice and let him prove that he is interested and is a man of character. Do not listen to what men say here they are looking for their own interest and making things easy for themselves. You care about your interest and well being. Wake up every morning look in the mirror and say "I'm pretty, I'm kind, I'm smart, men love me ". Say it until you believe it.

I used to be like you and other women like us when I got cheated on and abandoned by my ex husband . But once I started to date the way I told you above, I found love in six months and I was not used, abused, dumped or humiliated. I had an 100% call back rate first to second date. True story. Start working on your self esteem and your results will cone better

January 1, 2016

I definitely agree that I need to shift my focus to what I want. But how does a woman who is meeting a guy for the first time and not sure whether she likes him yet demonstrate that she's receptive to getting to know him better? Most of the guys I met said they thought I wasn't interested on our first date. I guess my cautiousness came off low interest. From speaking to older people, there was a time when it was expected that a girl would be somewhat coy and aloof on a first date. Because the woman had more to lose in making a poor choice in partner (biological clocks and all), it was the guy's responsibility to prove his worth.

The responses from guys in this thread show how much times have changed. I've noticed a lot of women now feel pressured to perform on a first date, even if they're uncertain about a guy. I'm not saying I'm a cold fish at all - I smile, I'm curious, I ask guys questions about themselves, and I'm responsive - but clearly I'm acting more aloof than other women are. Which makes me feel like I have to put on an act to demonstrate interest even when I'm uncertain about a guy, as I will be with anyone I'm meeting for the first time (even if they end up being someone I fall for later). Maybe I should think of it as trying to have a good time with someone with the expectation that I may never see them again? Just go in with no expectations and reflect later, after the date on whether I like the guy?

Hun most of the guys on this forum want it to be easy to have sex...although isn't this to be expected for most men on the planet?

It is hard enough to hook up these days, why would us guys want it to be more difficult?

Maybe try not to think about what society says you should do or what your girlfriends say you should do. The only viewpoint that matters is yours, because you will have to live with the fall out. If you do not want to have sex on the first date, then don't.

Personally, if a woman was willing to have sex with me that early and she made it easy for me. I would keep sleeping with her...but I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with her.

If you had lots of cake. You would eat your fill and keep eating your fill...but you would take it for granted and you probably wouldn't appreciate it.

If you had no cake, you would be starving for it. You would think about it a lot and you would work as hard as you could to prove that you were worth of the cake until you finally got it. Once you had got a little taste of cake, you would appreciate it and make damned sure that you continued to do your best to keep the cake coming.

You control the cake. You can either dish it out and ration it. Each way has different implications for guys behaviour.

January 1, 2016

If you don't mind my asking, how old are you and how did you meet these women you had successful relationships with?

At a bar, online, online. Was in my mid-late 20s and in NYC.

January 1, 2016

Hun most of the guys on this forum want it to be easy to have sex...although isn't this to be expected for most men on the planet?

It is hard enough to hook up these days, why would us guys want it to be more difficult?

Maybe try not to think about what society says you should do or what your girlfriends say you should do. The only viewpoint that matters is yours, because you will have to live with the fall out. If you do not want to have sex on the first date, then don't.

Personally, if a woman was willing to have sex with me that early and she made it easy for me. I would keep sleeping with her...but I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with her.

If you had lots of cake. You would eat your fill and keep eating your fill...but you would take it for granted and you probably wouldn't appreciate it.

If you had no cake, you would be starving for it. You would think about it a lot and you would work as hard as you could to prove that you were worth of the cake until you finally got it. Once you had got a little taste of cake, you would appreciate it and make damned sure that you continued to do your best to keep the cake coming.

You control the cake. You can either dish it out and ration it. Each way has different implications for guys behaviour.

Haha! I agree with you generally but I did ask this guy if he was put off that we had sex so early and he said of course not and that has nothing to do with his interest level. Not sure if I can take a guy's word about that, though. My guess is even if a guy isn't willing to admit it to himself early sex lowers his interest on a subconscious level.

January 1, 2016

At a bar, online, online. Was in my mid-late 20s and in NYC.

I wonder if the norms are different in NYC. I notice people here jump into bed a little faster.

January 1, 2016

All of the successful relationships I've had, we had sex on the 2nd or 3rd date. Anytime it's gone longer, it didn't go much longer and that was the end of it. I don't strictly adhere to the 3 date rule but some men do. I've also never gone exclusive until after we've had sex. I think the problem may be that a lot of women don't know how to convey their interest without being physical and guys don't think girls are interested until they do get physical. Which leads to sex.

Yes, I have heard this same thing^^ from each of my brothers (five).

However, I think if both men and women made even a little bit more of an effort to understand and appreciate the other's experience... these differences would not cause such problems, confusion and misunderstandings.

Men -- generally speaking.... women need to feel the emotional connection and *commitment* (that he cares and won't run) FIRST, before becoming sexually involved.

Women -- generally speaking ...men need to connect sexually FIRST before feeling emotionally connected and committing.

There are always exceptions ....but I have learned from experience that again, generally speaking, this is true.

Instead of fighting about it, and accusing the other of god only knows what... let's embrace our differences..... and try to understand each other!

That is what I plan to do in 2016 anyway.

Happy New Year everyone!

January 1, 2016

Haha! I agree with you generally but I did ask this guy if he was put off that we had sex so early and he said of course not and that has nothing to do with his interest level. Not sure if I can take a guy's word about that, though. My guess is even if a guy isn't willing to admit it to himself early sex lowers his interest on a subconscious level.

You've got it. Don't take his word for it.

...it is like an alcoholic saying that he will stop drinking completely after this one drink.

A guys state of mind is completely fogged when he is with a woman that is even remotely attractive and he has thought about sex, even once.

I would go so far as to say that:

(even slightly attractive) woman plus man in proximity = man thinks about sex at least once and is horny

...a guy will then say anything to have sex. He will promise the world.

Needless to say, his attitude may completely change after the act because biologically speaking, he has done his bit.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Brapting

January 1, 2016

Another strong possibility is these women simply weren't interested in you.

As I said, when the girl is reserved I assume she either has no personality or is not interested. By your own admission, that is the impression you are inadvertently giving these guys. Your "guardedness", whatever you're doing, is coming across to them as cold:

Most of the guys I met through OLD said they thought I wasn't interested on our first date. I guess my cautiousness came off low interest.

I think the problem may be that a lot of women don't know how to convey their interest without being physical and guys don't think girls are interested until they do get physical. Which leads to sex.

I think some women out there just don't know how to flirt. Flirting is how you convey interest in a man without actually having sex with him. When a woman knows how to flirt, it can be quite a powerful tool.

Edited January 1, 2016 by oberkeat

January 1, 2016

As I said, when the girl is reserved I assume she either has no personality or is not interested. By your own admission, that is the impression you are inadvertently giving these guys. Your "guardedness", whatever you're doing, is coming across to them as cold:

I think some women out there just don't know how to flirt. Flirting is how you convey interest in a man without actually having sex with him. If a woman knows how to flirt, it can be quite a powerful tool.

Well...many women (and men) are naturally big flirts, even when they have no interest, so IMO it takes more than flirting.

It takes responding POSITIVELY ....taking initiative...and physical affection in some form or fashion (not sex necessarily). Light touching, kissing, brushing up against him....looking straight into his eyes when speaking, listening attentively, engaging, etc.

And if you are not comfortable having sex on third, fourth, fifth dates, communicate why! Be clear about what you are looking for ...so he does not mistakenly assume it is not because you are not interested in him.

And if you are doing all that....but he is still persistent, and accuses you of playing games...manipulating him, or not being interested....then next him!

There are good guys out there and there are douchebags.....it is important to learn to differentiate between the two....

Protect your own heart cause no one else will...something I recently learned myself.

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Will I ever find a guy who accepts my shyness?

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