tuxedo cat Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) I've seen this guy I met on OKCupid three times over the past month and a half. He excited me at first - he seemed like a serious guy who was looking for a meaningful connection. After our first date he was very interested and immediately scheduled our next. On our second date he told me he was open to something meaningful with me, but his behavior suggested otherwise. From there on, even though he kept scheduling new dates I got the sense that he wasn't really feeling me. He was all over me physically when we were together but he didn't ask me many questions about myself and didn't try to connect. It felt like his interest in me was only physical. After our third date (last week), I felt frustrated enough by his lukewarm behavior that I finally had a phone conversation with him today about what he was looking for. He told me basically that he's been on the fence, feels very physically attracted to me, really enjoys our conversations and finds me interesting, but doesn't feel that we have a "deep connection." I've heard this from guys before (this is the main form of rejection I get) and since I knew it wasn't going to work with him decided it couldn't hurt to press him for a bit more clarity. He said that on our first date he misattributed my reserve to a lack of interest in him but then realized when I opened up on our second and third dates and demonstrated interest in him, that I was just shy at the start which he finds a turn off in women. For the record he is very shy, dry and serious himself, actually strikingly so. This doesn't bother me in guys as I find it relatable but I've noticed shy guys never seem to want to be with shy women. He told me he wanted to keep seeing me to see if his feelings developed but only felt that there was 30% chance that he'd want a relationship, and he didn't want to get my hopes up. Of course I told him I wasn't interested. And he said, "can we be friends then because I find you interesting and would like to get to know you better?" He kept pushing it. That just hurt more. If you find me so interesting to talk to and are so physically attracted, why would you write me off for anything more? I've had many of my dating experiences follow this exact script. Shy-ish guy and I go on a first date. Guy seems extremely interested on and immediately following said date. Sometimes even volunteers that he is looking for a relationship. On second date, he is a bit more reserved and detached. By third date he's totally disengaged emotionally but can't get his hands off me. Then I confront him about his intentions, he says he's not feeling a connection with me but implies that he wants to keep seeing me in a casual fwb way. When I say I'm not into that he begs me to stay platonic friends with him. So weird. It's upsetting to hear because my shyness around strangers isn't something I have a lot of control over. I do make an effort to engage, but I guess it's not enough. The few guys who have been patient enough to get to know me better have usually fallen for me, but they're a rarity and they were people who already knew me well through work or friends. Unfortunately, I'm in a place now where online dating is my only real option. I don't have a lot of friends or connections in this city. This conversation has gotten me so down that I almost feel like taking a break from dating. What should I do to address this problem? Is it the type of guys I'm seeing? I notice this problem crops up more with submissive/shy guys but don't feel like I have a big enough dating sample to draw any firm conclusions. More than anything, I just wish I could find a guy who accepts me for who I am. Edited December 30, 2015 by tuxedo cat
kitty12345 Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 You are dating the wrong guys. In today's times , shyness in women is looked down upon, to be honest. They are told that men like loud girls etc. , so many force themselves to be one. They are not being true. You have 2 choices: either change yourself and become something you are not or be who you are. The former will land you a guy easily but it won't last because it's you who he has. The latter will land you a guy who really wants you. It will happen. 4
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 You are dating the wrong guys. In today's times , shyness in women is looked down upon, to be honest. Thanks for the advice. Can you elaborate on how you know this to be true?
SwordofFlame Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 I'm an introverted guy myself, but definitely not shy. I've been on dates with plenty of shy women and not one has ever worked out. I often find them very hard to read and usually end up running out of patience with each one. I'm not sure if it's a confidence issue or not, but confident women really turn me on. I'm also not good at coaxing a shy girl out of her shell. Perhaps you should look for an outgoing guy? 1
LydiaLong Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 I would tell him that he had a 100% chance of your not being interested enough to continue. 2
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 I'm an introverted guy myself, but definitely not shy. I've been on dates with plenty of shy women and not one has ever worked out. I often find them very hard to read and usually end up running out of patience with each one. I'm not sure if it's a confidence issue or not, but confident women really turn me on. I'm also not good at coaxing a shy girl out of her shell. Perhaps you should look for an outgoing guy? Why do you run out of patience?
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 I'm an introverted guy myself, but definitely not shy. I've been on dates with plenty of shy women and not one has ever worked out. I often find them very hard to read and usually end up running out of patience with each one. I'm not sure if it's a confidence issue or not, but confident women really turn me on. I'm also not good at coaxing a shy girl out of her shell. Perhaps you should look for an outgoing guy? Yeah, he said this as well. That the fact that I was shy on his first date indicated to him that I lack confidence, which he found a turn off. It didn't seem to matter to him that I opened up later on. That just seems...so harsh? I hope not all guys feel this way. Maybe it really is a shy guy thing. I know that I have confidence issues but what am I to do? I've been in therapy and still struggle with confidence. I can't hold off on dating anymore for that reason. I'm 32 and would like to get married and have kids. Surely people who struggle with confidence can find love as well?
carhill Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Thanks for the advice. Can you elaborate on how you know this to be true? IME, it's an outgrowth of the evolution of society and women's changing roles in it over the last 50-70 years. Women of the past could be, and often were, assertive but their tone of assertion was different and men, in general, tended to prefer a 'soft', meaning relatively quiet and welcoming, mate to secure his home fires away from the fields of battle. Again, it was tone more than content. TBH, I saw a lot of the 'old ways' with ostensibly 'shy' women I dated in the FSU. They weren't loud, overarching, chatty or flirtatious in public but were definitely assertive, and far more open in private. A man knew where he stood with them. Will you ever find a guy who accepts your shyness? IMO, it all depends on demographic and brand of shyness, since the word covers a realm of behaviors. My instinct is yes, you will. As always, the difficult part, for anyone, is that mutual thing, where he's attracted to you and you him. Your shyness might play a part of that, yes, thinning the dating pool a bit but there's still a pool to swim in if you've got the suit and stamina. Up to you. 1
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 IME, it's an outgrowth of the evolution of society and women's changing roles in it over the last 50-70 years. Women of the past could be, and often were, assertive but their tone of assertion was different and men, in general, tended to prefer a 'soft', meaning relatively quiet and welcoming, mate to secure his home fires away from the fields of battle. Again, it was tone more than content. TBH, I saw a lot of the 'old ways' with ostensibly 'shy' women I dated in the FSU. They weren't loud, overarching, chatty or flirtatious in public but were definitely assertive, and far more open in private. A man knew where he stood with them. Will you ever find a guy who accepts your shyness? IMO, it all depends on demographic and brand of shyness, since the word covers a realm of behaviors. My instinct is yes, you will. As always, the difficult part, for anyone, is that mutual thing, where he's attracted to you and you him. Your shyness might play a part of that, yes, thinning the dating pool a bit but there's still a pool to swim in if you've got the suit and stamina. Up to you. Right, it's funny how progress for women, which overall been a very positive thing, has actually left behind those who exhibit more traditional personality traits. It seems that progress should be accepting all women in a variety of forms but instead it's always about boxing them into one mold or another. Either they needed to be submissive and accommodating (in the past) or strong and domineering (in the present). I was thinking to myself that I could probably fake it with him if I really wanted to - I could act feisty and a little cold, I know how to do that - but what would be the point? I'm 32 and I'm tired of playing those games. He seemed like a genuine guy so I made an effort to be myself.
carhill Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Old story: Man is shopping for clothes and encounters lady he like who works at the store. He's pretty soft-spoken so he doesn't ask her out immediately but always requests her assistance when shopping for his business attire. They get to know each other, essentially, while he's buying clothes. She's pretty quiet and not 'out there', normal for 'old stories'. Finally, he breaks the ice and asks her to dinner, months after they first meet. Later they elope and the storyteller is born six years later and the man and lady in the story are married until he dies many years later. What happens is synergy. Both parties mesh on the levels important to them. The difference between the old story and today is one of choice, for both men and women. All are afforded and generally supported and validated in an increasingly wide variety of choices for interpersonal relationships and gender roles. With that comes diversity of timelines, in that each choice opens up a whole new realm of potential timelines. If timelines, and the people in them, don't mesh, then no sparks happen and, well, that's that. Our individual choices today are unprecedented in scope, IMO. That has a price. 3
Heracles Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 And he said, "can we be friends then because I find you interesting and would like to get to know you better?" He kept pushing it. That just hurt more. If you find me so interesting to talk to and are so physically attracted, why would you write me off for anything more? From what you describe, he doesn't seem like one the infamous players that women complain so much about. In my understanding, the problem is not shyness but your - and women in general - obsession with securing a relationship right off the bat. It kills the natural spark of the initial fragile connection and doesn't allow it to evolve and develop naturally. The fear, I guess of being left after the guy sleeps with you causes you to close up and at the same time block off all the genuine deep and raw emotions that you feel, which go into creating a deep connection. Playing it safe, you take no risks; not even calculated ones. There are no guarantees in life. None. 2
Eternal Sunshine Posted December 30, 2015 Posted December 30, 2015 Story of my life. I get a lot of compliments on my personality from an older generation of men (50+). These men find extroverted, loud and brash women annoying (as do I). It's even trickier for me now since I have a good career which leaves no time for housework so that doesn't fit the "traditional woman" mold. Yet my personality is very traditional, I am "soft", "loving" and "submissive" in relationships. 2
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 From what you describe, he doesn't seem like one the infamous players that women complain so much about. In my understanding, the problem is not shyness but your - and women in general - obsession with securing a relationship right off the bat. It kills the natural spark of the initial fragile connection and doesn't allow it to evolve and develop naturally. The fear, I guess of being left after the guy sleeps with you causes you to close up and at the same time block off all the genuine deep and raw emotions that you feel, which go into creating a deep connection. Playing it safe, you take no risks; not even calculated ones. There are no guarantees in life. None. Hm. In my conversation today, though, he told me he was glad I had brought it up because he had been worried that he was leading me on. So I'm not sure that I necessarily killed anything. It seems like he had already made up his mind about me.
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 30, 2015 Author Posted December 30, 2015 (edited) Story of my life. I get a lot of compliments on my personality from an older generation of men (50+). These men find extroverted, loud and brash women annoying (as do I). It's even trickier for me now since I have a good career which leaves no time for housework so that doesn't fit the "traditional woman" mold. Yet my personality is very traditional, I am "soft", "loving" and "submissive" in relationships. SAME. Guys over 50 seem to really like me. I remember this one 60-year-old guy at the bookstore I used to work at several years ago would talk my ear off and was very fond of me. I could tell he really appreciated me, and he liked that I was a keen and responsive listener. I had a bit of a crush on him and was sad that he wasn't 30 years younger. Unfortunately, I don't find guys that much older than I am really suitable as potential partners. I'm willing to consider guys up to 45-47 (15 years older). I also don't want to date guys who are extremely dominant. I feel like they would have weird views about women and possibly cheat on me or be controlling. My ideal would be someone who is either an equal partner or slightly dominant in style but still respectful. I have trouble finding guys like this. People seem to naturally fall into unequal roles in relationships. I'm home visiting my parents until the 2nd and I mentioned what happened with this guy to my dad. My father is more of the dominant type. He said to me that my problem is I only get involved with "beta males." He asked me what this guy does for a living and practically flew into a rage when I told him that he's studying for a Masters in Sociology at this very liberal (but not prestigious) university. He snapped, "Of course, you're not going to get along with a guy like that, Tux! He is probably a social justice warrior type who is looking for a mommy. Why are you worrying about that clown??" My father tends to have extreme, sometimes abrasive and conservative views about things and people, so I always take his opinion with a grain of salt. But I reflected on what he said and realized that most of the guys I've dated in the last few years have been either underachieving or submissive or both. The issue is I'm attracted to introverted guys because I find them less intimidating and more relatable, but maybe I should push myself to date outside of my comfort zone? Still it's hard to get out of this sadness and disappointment, getting excited about a new guy and feeling that it's only a matter of a time before they realize that my shyness or lack of confidence is a problem. Edited December 30, 2015 by tuxedo cat
SwordofFlame Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Why do you run out of patience? The shy women I've dated never open up or reciprocates my interest in any way. They expect me to do all of the pursuing in the beginning. Either that or they appear to be disinterested, afraid or awkward. Which is why I said they're hard to read. I've learned from experience that after a while, if she doesn't reciprocate to just move on. I don't think that is your problem though. 2
Heracles Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 Hm. In my conversation today, though, he told me he was glad I had brought it up because he had been worried that he was leading me on. So I'm not sure that I necessarily killed anything. It seems like he had already made up his mind about me. The first impression is vital because it is almost impossible to change. You can still be shy but have an openness that translate in your demeanor. That makes all the difference. Showing yourself as you really are yet remaining open despite the fear of being judged/rejected etc. shows courage, which is, IMO much more appreciated than confidence.
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 The shy women I've dated never open up or reciprocates my interest in any way. They expect me to do all of the pursuing in the beginning. Either that or they appear to be disinterested, afraid or awkward. Which is why I said they're hard to read. I've learned from experience that after a while, if she doesn't reciprocate to just move on. I don't think that is your problem though. Yeah, on the first date I may have been a little guarded but after that I definitely reciprocated interest - he said it was clear I was interested in him. I think he is just turned off by shyness because he sees it as a sign of low confidence. If anything, he's probably more shy and stiff than I am.
carhill Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 I'm a bit unclear on the specifics of this. What do you do, stare at your plate during the whole meal? Mute? What? Everyone defines shy uniquely. For myself, back when young, shy was not clearly and directly asking a woman on a date as soon as I identified myself being attracted. It was acting in a way atypical for a male, at least a male who could have a modicum of success with women. How does it go for you? If/when a guy asks you on a date and you, initially, find that compelling and positive, what happens? 1
SwordofFlame Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 There is a big difference between shy and being introverted. I'm an introvert but don't have much trouble keeping a conversation going or getting up and speaking in front of a group of people. I just need some alone time every day to recover. Perhaps you should consider dating men that are introverts but not shy? 1
carhill Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 OP, followup question: Are you shy in interactions with men whom you are not interested in romantically? How do male friends accept your shyness, as applicable?
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 I'm a bit unclear on the specifics of this. What do you do, stare at your plate during the whole meal? Mute? What? Everyone defines shy uniquely. For myself, back when young, shy was not clearly and directly asking a woman on a date as soon as I identified myself being attracted. It was acting in a way atypical for a male, at least a male who could have a modicum of success with women. How does it go for you? If/when a guy asks you on a date and you, initially, find that compelling and positive, what happens? Excuse my length, but hope this illuminates something. To be honest, I'm not really sure what he was responding to. I remember being quite chatty with him on our first date - answering his questions, asking him questions, and talking passionately about things I was interested in. I remember even thinking am I talking *too* much? I definitely wasn't mutely staring at the table. That first date (where he thought I was uninterested??), the alcohol we were drinking at the bar helped disinhibit me. On our second date, I considered drinking a couple of glasses of wine before meeting him, but thought better of it. I remember even thinking, he's not the kind of guy who will judge me for being shy...just go and be yourself. As a result I was a bit more quiet and nervous (being interested in him), so I remember a few pauses/lulls in conversation, but I didn't think they were a big deal at the time. Basically, he was no more talkative than I was. He's shy himself and I was kind of relieved to be around someone who could tolerate some pleasant silence (or so I thought). Between some of the lulls he would kiss me, hug me or take my hand and I was always very receptive. Then, lying in his bed later that night I was very chatty because intimacy always relaxes me. I asked him what he was looking for the next morning and he said he was open to anything and asked me what I wanted. I said something more meaningful and he responded "I can definitely do that." We had a good time together and I even felt confident that we were headed in the direction of exclusivity when I left. But I remember being surprised to receive no message from him later that day or the next. I think it's rather discourteous to have a girl spend the night at your place and not at least send a "had a nice time" or "did you get home okay?" But I chalked it up to his reserved nature. He also hadn't mentioned anything on our date about seeing me again. After the second date, I felt a little anxious and vulnerable, realizing I had slept with him too soon and didn't really understand where we stood. So I sent him a text asking whether he wanted to hang out again and saying I understood if he wasn't feeling it. I received a text back from him that he was so sorry he had given me that impression, that he definitely wanted to see me again, and asked when I was available. Several weeks passed before our next date. I think he canceled the first time, and then I canceled (at this point I felt sure he was not into it), then he canceled again (twice, claiming he was sick). By then I had pretty much given up on him and didn't think we'd ever see each other again. Wish it had ended there. But two weeks ago he suddenly started messaging me about arranging a third date. I started to get my hopes up. We were both working long hours the day before our date so decided to meet up at his apartment for a movie night (in retrospect a mistake). From the moment I arrived, he couldn't keep his hands off me. I was chatty this time because he offered me some pot. We laughed a lot and I thought we had a good time. At one point in our conversation he grabbed me and whispered into my ear "I like you." Then we retired to his bed and had sex for what felt like an eternity - 40 minutes to an hour for just one session (he was slow to cum and says that's always the case with him). It was painful for me (he was also really big) and I had to eventually ask him to take a break because I was getting raw. A moment later we started up again with some lube and finished after another 30 minutes. But today he complained that I wanted to stop "after a few seconds" (wtf, couldn't be farther from the truth) and that I only liked one position. I was lying on my side and super stoned at my time because of all the pot he had given me and and warned him that I didn't feel very energetic but was happy to have sex. He never asked me to try another position. Generally, he did very little of the work and wasn't all that passionate. I felt like he expected me to do everything. That was on Christmas Eve. The next day he sent me a message wishing me a Merry Christmas and saying he hoped I had gotten home okay. A couple of days ago, encouraged by his Christmas text, I decided to try an experiment and send him a light-hearted text. I rarely have initiated with him since he basically doesn't text me at all between dates. I asked whether he'd gotten to his hometown okay. He wrote back. "Actually decided to stay in the city and do some work. You get to (your hometown)?" I wrote back. "Oh, no! That's a bummer. Yeah, got home on Christmas and I'll be here for a few days. Enjoying relaxing with my family." That was it. He let the conversation die. Then we spoke today. So in short, I know that I'm generally shy but I was surprised he picked on my shyness because I didn't feel that had been a particular issue with him, especially on our last date when we were bantering and connecting well (until the sex, but not my fault because I was stoned and he kept encouraging me to smoke more!). And because he is so shy and stiff himself. He mentioned that I make poor eye contact, and I do remember struggling with that a little on our second date because I was nervous without the alcohol. But that alone shouldn't be reason to reject a girl?
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) OP, followup question: Are you shy in interactions with men whom you are not interested in romantically? How do male friends accept your shyness, as applicable? If I'm not attracted to a guy, it's much easier for me to be chatty with him. So I would say I'm shy in general but far more so with guys I find romantically attractive. Edited December 31, 2015 by tuxedo cat
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 Couple more things I should bring up. He mentioned today that he was turned off that I didn't want him to go down on me the last time we saw each other. Well, I had good reason not to! Being really stoned pretty much killed my libido. Before we had sex he kept feeding me more and more pot, saying "we're going to get you high." Did he not realize that would lower my drive? Also, that act is something that's incredibly intimate to me and I usually only reserve for guys I'm seeing exclusively. It's even more intimate to me than regular sex, because it makes me feel vulnerable. Why should I be forced to do it with a guy who is only treating me like a casual option? I actually really resent it when a guy forces something on you that's supposed to be for your pleasure, not theirs. Finally, I think the way my shyness comes across has more to do with body language and voice than talkativeness - when I get nervous it's possible that the muscles in my face and body tense up a little or that I speak a bit faster. That's the only thing I can guess.
FadedSign52 Posted December 31, 2015 Posted December 31, 2015 I might be totally out on left field here but have you considered that you might be getting physical too soon in the relationship for it to be considered serious by him? Some guys are like that, maybe especially shy guys. 6
Author tuxedo cat Posted December 31, 2015 Author Posted December 31, 2015 I might be totally out on left field here but have you considered that you might be getting physical too soon in the relationship for it to be considered serious by him? Some guys are like that, maybe especially shy guys. It's not out of left field at all! I suspected this was part of the problem, but he adamantly denied it. Maybe it works subconsciously for a lot of guys. Why do you think especially shy guys?
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