basil67 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Oh, I didn't know this at all. It would be super hard to prove that she didn't know it wasn't her husband, or that she wasn't having sex with a different guy on purpose. What a messy situation. best of luck to you, OP. Assuming it wasn't her husband... If someone was able to identify who it was that had sex with her and the people at the party stated that she was incapable of informed consent, I'd find him guilty of rape if I was on a jury. Link to post Share on other sites
Horton Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Things I've learned from reading this thread. 1) Women cannot give consent while drunk, but for some unknown reason men can. I guess men are the more responsible ones between the two sexes and should therefore be held to a higher standard. Kinda like how a child would relate to a fully grown adult. ergo women are children 2) Any random poster who disagrees with me is likely raising a brood of rapist sons just waiting to be unleashed on polite society. 3) People can remember details of a particular sexual act with fondness even years later and yet somehow mix up who they were in fact having sex with. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) Things I've learned from reading this thread. 1) Women cannot give consent while drunk, but for some unknown reason men can. I guess men are the more responsible ones between the two sexes and should therefore be held to a higher standard. Kinda like how a child would relate to a fully grown adult. ergo women are children 2) Any random poster who disagrees with me is likely raising a brood of rapist sons just waiting to be unleashed on polite society. 3) People can remember details of a particular sexual act with fondness even years later and yet somehow mix up who they were in fact having sex with. 1. Men can't give consent while drunk either. It works both ways. I'd have no trouble convicting a woman of rape if the guy was ****faced and she somehow managed to get him erect and ride him. 2. WTF? 3. If it wasn't her husband she was with, it's not about her 'mixing up' who she had sex with. It's about a person having sex with her without her informed consent. Edited to add: if a woman can't get a drunk guy erect (making rape impossible), then it's sexual assault. Edited December 27, 2015 by basil67 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Edited to add: if a woman can't get a drunk guy erect (making rape impossible), then it's sexual assault. Serious question: what if BOTH people are sh**faced drunk? Is there an implication that the woman was victimized? (not talking about the "not husband" part of the story, just about inebriated people being able to choose to have sex). Link to post Share on other sites
Ms. Faust Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 (edited) Assuming it wasn't her husband... If someone was able to identify who it was that had sex with her and the people at the party stated that she was incapable of informed consent, I'd find him guilty of rape if I was on a jury. You present a very cut and dry case. As stated by the OP This was 3 years ago. EVERYONE was heavily intoxicated. You have not considered any of the accused's testimony. The OP was lucid enough to recall the position, what was said, and was actually 110% sure it was her husband up until he brought up she cheated because he could not recall the event. So you are saying even with all that you would believe beyond reasonable doubt she was raped? If this was like that case in Ohio I would be all on board she was assaulted, but there are things to consider in the OP's case. Plus the story is relatively vague and questionable (black out drunk, but can recall words and position with clarity years later) . On a side note (and not directed toward Basil) I really really dislike how if one questions an alleged rape victim's story there is an implication of victim blaming, or rape apologist. Edited December 27, 2015 by Ms. Faust Link to post Share on other sites
Ms. Faust Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 That is not the law. If a woman consents to sex with a man because she believes him to be her husband, that does NOT constitute consent to another man. It's called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception and it is a felony in many jurisdictions and under the Model Penal Code. For the OP's situation this would be assuming: That her husband is the one who is right, and he did not have sex with her. That the other partner knew she thought it was her husband and purposely deceived her. Link to post Share on other sites
lollipopspot Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 accused's testimony "Testimony?" Wow, for some people this must be a really threatening topic. So far as I know, the OP is just trying to figure out what happened to her at this point, and some of y'all are really trying to shut that down. I don't hear that it's a court case that requires "testimony." For the OP's situation this would be assuming: ...That the other partner knew she thought it was her husband and purposely deceived her. Try instead: incoherent, or too drunk to consent. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Ms. Faust Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 "Testimony?" Wow, for some people this must be a really threatening topic. So far as I know, the OP is just trying to figure out what happened to her at this point, and some of y'all are really trying to shut that down. I don't hear that it's a court case that requires "testimony... I was using Basil's scenario of being a juror during a trial... Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Try instead: incoherent, or too drunk to consent. If a man and a woman are both totally drunk and they have sex with each other, do you think that mean that the woman was a victim of rape or assault? Link to post Share on other sites
bathtub-row Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 This is something you're probably never going to know the answer to because of the circumstances. The truth is, a woman should never let herself get blind drunk like you did. Sorry, I don't mean to lecture you but you should understand that there are a lot of men out there who will take advantage of a situation like that. If your husband had already gone to bed then it's very likely that the other guy put you in his bed. On the other hand, it's likely that you went to your husband's bed and he doesn't remember what happened. I guess the big question is: where did you wake up the next morning? The only way you're going to recover this situation with your husband is to insist that it was him. And don't deviate from that stance. Which shouldn't be hard to do since you were sure it was him that night. If he continues to make an issue of it, then don't keep defending yourself. It will only make you appear more guilty. And, unless you intend to confront the other guy, then you need to make peace with it yourself somehow. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
bathtub-row Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 If you had sex on purpose and remember enjoying it, then you weren't assaulted were you? If the guy doing it wasn't her husband and if he was pretty certain she would've turned him down, then yeah, technically he assaulted her. Link to post Share on other sites
bathtub-row Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 If a man and a woman are both totally drunk and they have sex with each other, do you think that mean that the woman was a victim of rape or assault? I think the point is whether or not those people are actually in a relationship or not. That's why it's ok if it had been her husband, not at all ok if it had been the other guy. Link to post Share on other sites
introverted1 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Things I've learned from reading this thread. 1) Women cannot give consent while drunk, but for some unknown reason men can. I guess men are the more responsible ones between the two sexes and should therefore be held to a higher standard. Kinda like how a child would relate to a fully grown adult. ergo women are children 2) Any random poster who disagrees with me is likely raising a brood of rapist sons just waiting to be unleashed on polite society. 3) People can remember details of a particular sexual act with fondness even years later and yet somehow mix up who they were in fact having sex with. Let's add #4: When people (of either gender) have sex with questionable partners, it is often because they were "black out drunk," which conveniently absolves them of responsibility. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
introverted1 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 My hubby and I were talking suggestively about how we enjoy having sex outside of the bedroom and I said "Yeah I enjoy making dinner and thinking about when you me there. I just draw the line at other peoples bedrooms. Except for that one time in J's bed." He immediately looked confused and said he has no idea what I'm talking about. So i added in how we were both extremely drunk. (We were living in a house with his friend (m) and an out of town working guy(j). M, my hubby and i would drink and hangout. At this point in our relationship we were having trouble and trying to figure out how to move forward. I became close with his friend and would confide in him, some nights staying up past my partners bedtime just talking. Which i know now was wrong. This was 3 years ago.) Anyways I said how we were both extremely drunk and he said "Yeah everyone was drinking then" and now I'm confused because I swear it was him. And I've asked him over and over if it was him and he says no. I tried to say how I was blackout drunk and all I really remember was him saying how he was happy i was so drunk and it was easy that way. My hubby replies with "sounds like something M would say. Why would i need you to not remember?". I went and cried and now he's gone somewhere. I am so confused I swear it was him but I never really did see his face. I'm wondering was it a dream? So vivid it felt like that happened? Or did was I sexually assaulted? I was incoherent. I'm just afraid my hubby thinks I cheated. Sounds like you were in an EA with M, at a minimum. Was your husband drinking with you that night? If so, what are the odds that the 3 of you were in J's room drinking and that your husband then left you there with M, especially if you were "black out drunk"? Something isn't right here. Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Originally Posted by Rejected Rosebud If a man and a woman are both totally drunk and they have sex with each other, do you think that mean that the woman was a victim of rape or assault? I think the point is whether or not those people are actually in a relationship or not. That's why it's ok if it had been her husband, not at all ok if it had been the other guy. Except, the OP wrote: At this point in our relationship we were having trouble and trying to figure out how to move forward. I became close with his friend and would confide in him, some nights staying up past my partners bedtime just talking. It wouldn't be outrageous for that friend to think they might end up having sex together ... and nowhere in her post does she say that whoever she had sex with identified himself as her husband or M or anybody else at all. I don't agree with you, anyway - two drunk people who are not in a relationship with each other have had sex millions of times without either of them being a victim of assault. It's a "thing"!! I'm not trying to accuse the OP of anything, I am really just exploring the idea of whether this would or could be assault. Link to post Share on other sites
lollipopspot Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 If a man and a woman are both totally drunk and they have sex with each other, do you think that mean that the woman was a victim of rape or assault? Haven't known men who are so drunk as to be "incoherent" being able to get it up, keep it up, and rape someone. The female role is often more passive, and doesn't require the existence of an erect penis (i.e. biology is different). However, whether male or female, the person who is the offender in an assault is the one who is actively offending. Sounds in this case as though this lady was unable to do much of anything - she describes being incoherent and something being done to her. Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Sounds in this case as though this lady was unable to do much of anything - she describes being incoherent and something being done to her. Have you been in a blackout and incoherent? I have. NO WAY could I have remembered specifics about an event, words that were said, body positions. Also, yes, a guy in a blackout can get an erection and have sex. I am sure there are some guys on here who have experienced that. Anybody who read the "rape culture" thread knows that I am NOT an apologist for rape in ANY cases, and I am all too aware of how often rape is committed by a person known and trusted by the victim. Still, there is NO WAY I am going to sign up for permanent victim status because I am a woman. I CAN get drunk (well theoretically since I don't drink at all anymore) and let my judgement go out the window and have sex that was not a good idea. That wouldn't mean I was assaulted. From the OP's post, I read that she chose to have sex and remembers details about it. That doesn't fit my definition of incoherent. The part that is more unclear to me is that if the guy was pretending to be her husband, that could be classified as rape. I hadn't known that at all. Still, from her OP there is no indication that the guy tricked her. Or that the guy called M would have been totally out of line thinking that they might have sex with each other. If she was incoherent and a guy had sex with her, I agree with everybody, that would be assault. Unless it was her husband and in there relationship it was "implied" that sex while one of them was unconscious was fine (:confused:). I think. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
lollipopspot Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 If she was incoherent and a guy had sex with her, I agree with everybody, that would be assault. Well, that's what she describes. Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 So you are saying even with all that you would believe beyond reasonable doubt she was raped? If others at the party could testify that she was actually 'blackout drunk', then yes. I'm talking about the kind of drunk where one is talking absolute nonsense and needs to be sent to bed for a sleep. Link to post Share on other sites
basil67 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 If a man and a woman are both totally drunk and they have sex with each other, do you think that mean that the woman was a victim of rape or assault? Either gender could technically say it was assault. It's a really interesting area. I've had sex when I've been drunk and know many others who have too. None of us have said that we were assaulted. Though later conceding that it was a bad idea at the time was probably not an infrequent thought. That being said, I've had discussions with my teenage daughter about not coercing boys into sex. Both boys and girls are taught at school about issues of consent and alcohol/drugs. Yes, chances are that very few people will ever end up on assault charges because the partner was too drunk to properly consent ....but this doesn't mean that having sex with a person who is too drunk to consent is OK. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
anika99 Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Either gender could technically say it was assault. It's a really interesting area. I've had sex when I've been drunk and know many others who have too. None of us have said that we were assaulted. Though later conceding that it was a bad idea at the time was probably not an infrequent thought. That being said, I've had discussions with my teenage daughter about not coercing boys into sex. Both boys and girls are taught at school about issues of consent and alcohol/drugs. Yes, chances are that very few people will ever end up on assault charges because the partner was too drunk to properly consent ....but this doesn't mean that having sex with a person who is too drunk to consent is OK. Yeah I had a couple of drunken one night stands when I was younger and while I was never proud of those encounters I never felt like I had been raped. My inhibitions were lowered but I knew what I was doing and nobody was coercing me. However I remember one night when I was terribly messed up on alcohol. I had just thrown up and I was laying on the bathroom floor at a house party when a guy who lived there came in picked me up off the floor and carried me to his bedroom. He laid me down on his bed and started to caress me and kiss me. I know I said no and tried to push him away but I was so incapacitated that I simply couldn't get myself off the bed. Then the guy undid the buttons on my shirt and was feeling up my boobs. He had moved onto unzipping my pants when another guy who was my best friend burst into the room looking for me. When he saw the state in I was in, incoherent and partially undressed he became angry and yelled at the guy who took me in there. The guy was saying he was just trying to help me and I had partially disrobed myself. My friend lifted me off the bed, carried me to another room, put me down on the bed and then he laid down beside me and stayed there to protect me until I came to my senses again. MY HERO! Had he not intervened any sex that would have occurred between me and the other guy would have definitely been rape but it was back in a time where nobody would believe me or everyone would say I asked for it so I'm so grateful it never happened. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
lollipopspot Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Yeah I had a couple of drunken one night stands when I was younger and while I was never proud of those encounters I never felt like I had been raped. My inhibitions were lowered but I knew what I was doing and nobody was coercing me. However I remember one night when I was terribly messed up on alcohol. I had just thrown up and I was laying on the bathroom floor at a house party when a guy who lived there came in picked me up off the floor and carried me to his bedroom. He laid me down on his bed and started to caress me and kiss me. I know I said no and tried to push him away but I was so incapacitated that I simply couldn't get myself off the bed. Then the guy undid the buttons on my shirt and was feeling up my boobs. He had moved onto unzipping my pants when another guy who was my best friend burst into the room looking for me. Yes, this is what incoherent means, and a guy in that state would not be able to rape someone - you can hardly even move of your own accord or resist. The talk in this thread about two incoherent people having sex with each other and then one accusing the other of rape is nonsense. We're not talking about lowered judgement, but about someone being unable to consent at all. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 ....but this doesn't mean that having sex with a person who is too drunk to consent is OK. I agree 100%. A person really shouldn't be having sex with somebody who has impaired judgement from overindulging. If I have kids I will teach them that too - along with watching out for themselves with regards to drinking and what can happen. But, for better or worse, people do get drunk together and end up in the sack ... Link to post Share on other sites
Rejected Rosebud Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 The talk in this thread about two incoherent people having sex with each other and then one accusing the other of rape is nonsense. We're not talking about lowered judgement, but about someone being unable to consent at all. OK - where did you read about the OP being unable to consent at all? She DID say that it was the exception to her general feeling about not enjoying having sex in somebody else's bedroom. Link to post Share on other sites
lollipopspot Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 OK - where did you read about the OP being unable to consent at all? I was incoherent. .......... Link to post Share on other sites
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