scratch Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by Craig I ask for nothing more than would be expected of individuals in the private sector that are NOT protected by legislation from being held accountable for misrepresentation, fraud and negligence. Is it too much to ask for our public servants to be held to the same standards of accountability that we are? Don't ever assume that I ever seek to have the system fail any person. You think that public officals damage the lives of the wrongfully accused due to misrepresentation, fraud and negligence? I think the damage is done primarly by public officials implementing, without willful neglegence, the laws which are drafted to settle on a compromise for a problem with no pleasant solution. Public servants are held to the same standard, in a broad sense, as private workers. See section 1984 of the Civil Rights act of 1871, which provides the basis for a constitutional tort action that can lead to monetary damages being assessed for the denial of a constitutional right by a public offical. If you think our criminal justice system is capable of operating without anyone, guilty or innocent, slipping through the cracks, I admire your idealism. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be remotely grounded in reality.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 3, 2005 Author Posted June 3, 2005 If society as a whole gave a s*** about prison rape, we'd find a way to stop it. People dehumanize those who wind up in jail, and largely don't care what happens to them. Some people even consider prison rape a consequence of committing crime and see it as just another deterrent.
SexKitten Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by BrotherAaron If society as a whole gave a s*** about prison rape, we'd find a way to stop it. People dehumanize those who wind up in jail, and largely don't care what happens to them. Some people even consider prison rape a consequence of committing crime and see it as just another deterrent. so you sympathize with them, but not people who are date raped? wow. interesting.
shamen Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 I too lost my virginity to a date rape. Whether it's a rape with a complete stranger (which it's usually not) or with someone one knows, it's a horrible experience. I'm still dealing with this issue in my life and probably will for a long time. It happened 20 years ago. I wish that I had had the strength back then to pursue it legally. After it was over, he said, "I can't believe that I did that again." He knew that he did a wrong thing. He knew and he'd done it before. I'm betting that he probably did it again, unfortunately. If it were to happen again in my life, I would not hesitate to pursue it legally. I don't know what the answer is for the legal system, but there is some burden of proof on the victim and their counsel to prove that the person did what the victim said they did... Innocent until proven guilty, eh? CIOC, There's only so much one can do to prevent date rape... Nor can one not leave the house. MHO. I could not have prevented my date rape and I'm not going to go back to that period of my life to think that maybe I could have done something differently. When you date someone, you trust them. I trusted the guy that I was DATING. When you date someone, you do your best to trust the person that you're with. (As you get older, this probably fades some.) Key word here: dating. You don't expect someone that you're dating to rape you. But it happens nonetheless.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 3, 2005 Author Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by SexKitten so you sympathize with them, but not people who are date raped? wow. interesting. I sympathize with anyone who is raped. Pay attention - I'm saying that the current trend in date rape is to try and cast to wide a net and people who are in no way guilty of date rape are getting caught in it. I sympathize with my friend, who might be facing jail time - and, who knows, prison rape - because, according to the law he is guilty of something wrong when common sense says that he isn't.
SexKitten Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 " i think date rape is crap." real sympathetic. besides, even if your friend was prison-raped, he could be lying about it. so then you have to lobby for the "rapist's" innocence. the cycle would never end. it sounds very tiring.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 3, 2005 Author Posted June 3, 2005 I said "I think date rape is crap" because I didn't understand that date rape is anytime you are raped by someone you know, as opposed to a stranger on the street. I categorized any forced sexual experience as just plain rape. So, in retrospect, I don't think date rape is total crap. I think that categorizing a consensual sexual encounter that simply did not involve a verbal agreeement as date rape is total crap. If girl says no, that means no. But if a girl says nothing - that doesn't mean yes or no. Her actions must determine her consent. I suppose you're right, though. It's way too tiring to sort the innocent from the guilty. Let's put a stop to this never-ending cylce right now, and just assume that everyone who is accused of rape is guilty of it.
shamen Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by BrotherAaron It's way too tiring to sort the innocent from the guilty. Let's put a stop to this never-ending cylce right now, and just assume that everyone who is accused of rape is guilty of it. I know that you don't believe this. In regards to your friend: there is a burden of proof on her and her counsel to prove that it happened. If they can't prove it, then he won't be convicted. Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Hopefully if your friend is innocent, then he won't be convicted. Our court system, as you well know, is not perfect. And we can't stop people from making false claims throughout the court system either. Yes, it totally stinks that sometimes people are unjustly accused and that people's good names get put throught the wringer, but there is no way to stop people who lie from lying. The world is a crazy place. It sux sometimes. All I can say is that I'm sorry that you've had a couple of bad experiences with the date rape thing in your world, but it's also really important to know that it truly does happen. Don't dismiss this from your belief system. I will never forget my experience either, and I acknowledge that sometimes people are unjustly accused. Peace, Shamen
Craig Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by scratch You think that public officals damage the lives of the wrongfully accused due to misrepresentation, fraud and negligence? I think the damage is done primarly by public officials implementing, without willful neglegence, the laws which are drafted to settle on a compromise for a problem with no pleasant solution. Public servants are held to the same standard, in a broad sense, as private workers. See section 1984 of the Civil Rights act of 1871, which provides the basis for a constitutional tort action that can lead to monetary damages being assessed for the denial of a constitutional right by a public offical. If you think our criminal justice system is capable of operating without anyone, guilty or innocent, slipping through the cracks, I admire your idealism. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be remotely grounded in reality. Not once did I suggest that some people innocent or guilty wouldn't fall through the cracks. The truth is that decent and innocent people are falsely accused, charged and convicted because of how some police and D.A.'s operate and in these instances putting the innocent behind bars could have been prevented by the police and D.A.'s doing their jobs in the way they are supposed to.
scratch Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Originally posted by Craig Don't ever assume that I ever seek to have the system fail any person. Originally posted by Craig Not once did I suggest that some people innocent or guilty wouldn't fall through the cracks. Feel free to start being consistent at any time. Originally posted by Craig The truth is that decent and innocent people are falsely accused, charged and convicted because of how some police and D.A.'s operate and in these instances putting the innocent behind bars could have been prevented by the police and D.A.'s doing their jobs in the way they are supposed to. So, your objection is that we don't have tight enough supervision over officials? What exactly is it you want (besides to whine about how law officers suck and how men get screwed over, while drawing attention away from the fact that you're ignoring how women would be effected)? See the problem in a circumspect fashion, or drop it.
Craig Posted June 4, 2005 Posted June 4, 2005 Originally posted by scratch What exactly is it you want (besides to whine about how law officers suck and how men get screwed over, while drawing attention away from the fact that you're ignoring how women would be effected)? Since when did the word "people" exclude women? Not once in your last post where you used quotes of what I said did I use the word "man."
Sal Paradise Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter Absurd. Utterly ridiculous. I never did press charges against the first boy who raped me when I was 12. I later found out that he got into legal trouble for raping yet another girl. The same thing happened when I was raped AGAIN when I was 19. I was too afraid to go to the authorities because I didn't want to be put through the legal wringer, as I am now for being assaulted by my exboyfriend when he broke into my house. And to think that some people still think that women do something to "ask for it" I never asked for anything to happen to me. I never went around throwing my pussy about. You know what? I was a "virgin" when I was raped when I was 19. (Not really because I was raped when I was 12). I hadn't even had sexual intercourse with anyone yet. He got me drunk and when I asked him to drive me home, he drove me to his house and carried me bodily into his room. His roommate just laughed. Apparently they both engaged in this behavior quite frequently. A free rapist will commit his crime again and again. Most of the attitudes on this thread shocked me. I am appalled. I hope that none of you all have to experience the ultimate violation. I hope you never have to feel completely helpless while someone pins you down by kneeling on your knees and covers your mouth with their hand. Ok Otter, you're saying its absurd to rather let a guilty person go free than punish an innocent? If there is reasonable doubt you'd rather not take a chance and just stick them behind bars? You'd rather put an innocent behind bars because he MIGHT be guilty? I find that ABSURD and UTTERLY ridiculous! I'm not saying let all guilty rapist go free. I'm saying there better be more proof than my her word against his which many date rape cases are. Our system is based on innocent until proven guilty, and you're not supposed to be found guilty if there is reasonable doubt. That may mean on ocassions that some guilty people go free but the alternative is far worse. A woman being raped is horrible, but taking an innocent persons freedom away for years is far worse. Your personal experience is clouding your judgement.
lindya Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 That may mean on ocassions that some guilty people go free but the alternative is far worse. A woman being raped is horrible, but taking an innocent persons freedom away for years is far worse. Your personal experience is clouding your judgement. Blind Otter has already said that she's staying away from this thread because it's too much of a trigger for her, therefore she won't be able to respond to your post or defend her view. We all like to believe we're more objective than everyone else; but pretty much every opinion expressed on this thread has been a subjective one. Mine included, yours included.
faux Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Date rape is a very tricky issue. Where I live, if a man is accused of rape, that man will be arrested and held in a prison cell, with the bail placed very high. All of this, of course, happens before the accuser proves that the accused raped her. Until the trial, the accused man's life must be rather difficult. The only thing the accused has on his side is that the accuser must prove that the accused raped her. From what I understand, the accused does not have to prove anything. This thread started because someone's friend was accused of rape. Hopefully, this friend has not said one word to the police, and will be able to stick things out until the date of the trial. If he didn't rape anyone, and the accuser cannot prove that he did, then he will be free to go. If he is not found guilty, he could take legal action to retaliate. Accusing a person of a crime he did not commit is illegal, unless that accuser did so in 'good faith'. It is unsettling that women can call rape and have a man placed immediately in a jail cell. It is scary to think that most women can slap a temporary restraining order by crying a false crime. In both instances, action is taken before the accused can be proved guilty. I must also agree that, in many instances I have had sex with women, there was no "yes" or "no" question time. The woman would get naked and start doing things, or tell me that she wants to have sex with me. When my girlfriend and I are alone, one of us will initiate, often without verbal consent. If one of us says to stop, of course the other is going to stop. It is frightening to think, however, that a law might make most normal intimate situations rape. This all becomes so confusing. If a woman removes her clothes and begins to initiate things, and we have sexual intercourse, and she accuses me of raping her, what then? Was it rape if she did not tell me to stop, or say "no"? Was it rape because I did not ask her if it was OK? Am I to ask my girlfriend every time she removes her clothes and begins to kiss me if she consents to sexual intercourse? I know how easy it is for a woman to accuse a man of crimes he did not commit, and to have those accusations lead to immediate action. An ex of mine once went to the police and filed a temporary restraining order on me. An hour later, I was tracked down and served, without her offering any proof. I had to wait until the date of a trial to have it shown that she could not prove I ever did anything; I never did. I also could not retaliate through the law, because since someone else must have been doing these horrible things to her, she accused me on 'good faith'. I still had to pay all of the court fees. Wonderful. Certain parts of the legal system are set up to help those in need. If a man really did rape a woman, and the woman accuses the man of doing so, it does make sense to lock him up immediately before proving anything happened, but only if the man really did commit the crime. If a woman is in danger from a stalker ex, it makes sense to track the man down and do something about it. Unfortunately, the accused is not always guilty. How the law should handle situations like this seems, in my mind, a very difficult thing to debate.
scratch Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 Originally posted by faux Certain parts of the legal system are set up to help those in need. If a man really did rape a woman, and the woman accuses the man of doing so, it does make sense to lock him up immediately before proving anything happened, but only if the man really did commit the crime. If a woman is in danger from a stalker ex, it makes sense to track the man down and do something about it. Unfortunately, the accused is not always guilty. How the law should handle situations like this seems, in my mind, a very difficult thing to debate. This speaks to my point well. Some people will suffer unduly - it's merely a matter of distributing the undue suffering as equitably as is desirable between men and women. To place this in perspective, whenever we arrest and hold somebody pending a bail hearing, we are definitionally infringing upon the rights of someone who is "presumed innocent." Craig, I should probably let this go, but for your own edification, it's difficult to agrue that you were being gender neutral when striving to protect those unjsutly accused of rape. As a matter of law, only men can commit rape.
billie3113 Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 Both men and women have committed rape and molestation. And I don't understand how anyone could falesly accuse a person of raping an adult or a child. It's sickening, and sometimes the legal system does prosecute innocent people for rape. But many people brought up on sexual assault charges are not innocent. Not all acquaintance rapes occur because the victim wanted to be alone with a person they found sexually desirable. I foolishly went to a guy's apartment because we had been assigned to work on a project together for a sociology class. It was two in the afternoon, he called and asked if I had time right then to come over, as he would be busy the rest of the week. While I thought he seemed to be a nice person (I knew him from other classes) I wasn't interested in him other than getting the crappy project done so I could focus on my other school work. I was lucky, I managed to fight him off, but left his place with his spittle and various finger mark bruises on my throat, breasts, back and upper legs. I could have pressed charges, but for what, attempted assault? I doubt he would have even been charged, or received any jail time. I was scared of being interrogated, having people know what happened, or being accused of being a liar and asked, "why did you go to his apartment?" I dropped the class and warned people about the b@stard--my friends who saw the bruises on me avoided him like the plague. I don't know if he did that to any other girl, before or since. I can only imagine what goes on in the head of someone who was actually sexually assaulted.
Craig Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 Originally posted by scratch Craig, I should probably let this go, but for your own edification, it's difficult to agrue that you were being gender neutral when striving to protect those unjsutly accused of rape. As a matter of law, only men can commit rape. You say "As a matter of law, only men can commit rape." Show me, don't tell me. Here are excerpts of some existing rape laws, show me where it says that only men can commit rape. California Penal Code Section 261-269 261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person not the spouse of the perpetrator Florida Statutes Section 794.011 Sexual battery (h) "Sexual battery" means oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another or the anal or vaginal penetration of another by any other object; however, sexual battery does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose. (2)(a) A person 18 years of age or older who commits sexual battery upon, or in an attempt to commit sexual battery injures the sexual organs of, a person less than 12 years of age commits a capital felony, punishable as provided in ss. 775.082 and 921.141. Uniform Code of Military Justice Section 920. Art. 120. Rape and carnal knowledge (a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse, by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct. And before you come back saying that a woman can't rape a man by having forced sexual intercourse with him, please do some research.
scratch Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 Originally posted by Craig You say "As a matter of law, only men can commit rape." Here are excerpts of some existing rape laws, show me where it says that only men can commit rape. California Penal Code Section 261-269 261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person not the spouse of the perpetrator Florida Statutes Section 794.011 Sexual battery (h) "Sexual battery" means oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another or the anal or vaginal penetration of another by any other object; however, sexual battery does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose. (2)(a) A person 18 years of age or older who commits sexual battery upon, or in an attempt to commit sexual battery injures the sexual organs of, a person less than 12 years of age commits a capital felony, punishable as provided in ss. 775.082 and 921.141. Uniform Code of Military Justice Section 920. Art. 120. Rape and carnal knowledge (a) Any person subject to this chapter who commits an act of sexual intercourse, by force and without consent, is guilty of rape and shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct. And before you come back saying that a woman can't rape a man by having forced sexual intercourse with him, please do some research. You found the answer yourself. Intercourse and penetration are elements of rape. While a man can rape another man, and a woman can commit a battery (sexual or otherwise) on a man or woman, a woman cannot commit the specific crime of rape. It's a fine point, as penalties for rape aren't significantly worse than those for criminal sexual assault. But as I said, for your own information note that rape under common law and most statutory laws is narrowly defined. This message board could really use a private messaging system.
Craig Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 Originally posted by scratch a woman cannot commit the specific crime of rape. What do you mean by this? Are you saying that a woman can not force a man (with violence or otherwise) to have an erection and then have sexual intercourse with him against his will?
shamen Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 Scratch, Women can indeed commit acts of rape. That's why the laws leave the "person" open. Also, there is a private messenging system. Hit the "pm" button on the bottom of each person's post to send them a message.
noname Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 for my own edification... how does one force an erection?
Bubbles Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 talk dirty to a man BEFORE you get aggressive with them.......... bubbles
noname Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 Originally posted by Bubbles talk dirty to a man BEFORE you get aggressive with them.......... bubbles yeah, but if he is not willing, then it is not should not stay up unless you slip him something to force him chemically like viagra or something. maybe i need some feedback from some men that have had forced erections, because i don't really know that an erection would last if you are being violated. erections are a good percent mental, and i just don't understand, short of being drugged how someone could force one... don't get me wrong. i am not saying that a man can not be violated. i just don't get how he could be made to perform...
SexKitten Posted June 6, 2005 Posted June 6, 2005 Originally posted by Craig 261. (a) Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a person not the spouse of the perpetrator actually...it is so that a husband can rape his wife.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 6, 2005 Author Posted June 6, 2005 Erections are involuntary. A guy "loses" an erection, he doesn't "put it away". It comes and go as it pleases. The penis responds to touch, and in many men that would cause an erection even if they were not enjoying it. Men can be raped. It's less common (not counting prison rape ) but it's not impossible, and the law does give equal consideration. But, if you think that rape is underreported by women due to fear/shame/embarrassment, that must be double true amongst men.
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