SexKitten Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by BrotherAaron So, yes, rape is a horrible crime. There's a huge difference between being carried into a bedroom by a stranger, or telling somebody "no" and having yourself be ignored while a guy physically ignores your words, and being a willing participant but claiming that, due to a lack of verbalization of intent, either party is guilty of rape. It's absurd, and it trivializes actual rape. that was the best thing you've said in this whole thread. well done. i mean it.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by SexKitten rape is about power. sex is a part of it, but power is the bigger force. even if both decide to abstain, if one changes their mind and forces it, that's rape. it should be much easier to say "i am not going to rape someone" than "i am not going to have sex with a willing person." a man who is a potential rapist is not going to think "well, i did take a vow of abstinence, so this is wrong." come on. Everything I am saying is in the context of "DATE" rape.... I realize a serial rapist isn't going to be thinking about abstinence. I am saying that men who adhere to adstinence will never find themselves in a position to be acused of date rape. it would make a lot more sense to abstain from having sex with pepole who don't want to have sex with you. abstaining from sex is not going to "solve" the date rape problem. I never meant to infer it would. I don't think you'll ever solve it, but I think both sexes can take steps to avoid it such as: Not drinking/doing drugs, not putting themselves into positions to allow sex to happen (ie: Don't go to his or her apartment, etc.) No, you may never stop it but you can very well take steps to help avoid it. Kobe wouldn't have found himself in Court had he not invited her in and she wouldn't have found herself refusing sex had she not let herself be put in that position. I am not making any excuses for date rape, I want you to understand that. I am merely saying you CAN do things to help avoid it. ***and yes, i do know people who have been raped, and i do know people who have accused rape and then retracted it for all sorts of reasons, some of them for lying. either way, rape is disgusting, and false accusations are too. Agreed.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale how does one prove anything either way? prove god exists, prove michael jackson is guilty, prove the world is round...prove JFK was shot by multiple gunmen and that aliens exist. go ahead, I wait It's "he said/she said' bro. What I don't get is when a woman says "NO!" how can a man no stop himself? Why would you want to have sex with a woman that did not want you?!
SexKitten Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC It's "he said/she said' bro. What I don't get is when a woman says "NO!" how can a man no stop himself? Why would you want to have sex with a woman that did not want you?! one word...power. and regardless of whether a man is on a "date", if he rapes, it is still rape. a man on a date can have every intention of "abstaining" and before you know it, he's raping her. it happens. it's not always a planned thing. not all rapists are serial rapists.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by SexKitten one word...power. and regardless of whether a man is on a "date", if he rapes, it is still rape. a man on a date can have every intention of "abstaining" and before you know it, he's raping her. it happens. it's not always a planned thing. not all rapists are serial rapists. All the more reason for a woman not to allow herself, to whatever degree she can, to be put in that position. Don't go in. Don't let him in your place. Don't allow him to "park"..... Having some pepper spray in your purse would help too.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 But some people want to have to sex. That's their choice, and it has inherent risks. We don't need laws that make it riskier. On that note, it's very true that a woman who does not want to have sex with a man should not put herself in a position to do so - but that's irrelevant, really, and of no comfort to women who have experienced date rape. Going into a man's apartment is not congruent to agreeing to have sex with him.
SexKitten Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC All the more reason for a woman not to allow herself, to whatever degree she can, to be put in that position. Don't go in. Don't let him in your place. Don't allow him to "park"..... Having some pepper spray in your purse would help too. but it's not about allowing yourself....you don't have to GO in anywhere, or LET him into your place, or ALLOW him to park to be raped. how do i stop someone from parking? i shouldn't let a guy i've been dating in my house (or go into his) to hang out, it has to mean sex? it seems to me that your examples are laying all the responsibility on the wrong party. we educate women on how "not to get raped". why not educate men NOT TO RAPE? that might help too. so what you're saying is, don't even date, essentially, because it invloves cars and homes and parking that car, and if you let someone do that, then you're asking to be raped. and just to let you know, pepper spray may help, but it's not the lifesaver people think it might be. it's a little hard to grab when you're unexpectedly pounced on.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by SexKitten but it's not about allowing yourself....you don't have to GO in anywhere, or LET him into your place, or ALLOW him to park to be raped. how do i stop someone from parking? i shouldn't let a guy i've been dating in my house (or go into his) to hang out, it has to mean sex? it seems to me that your examples are laying all the responsibility on the wrong party. we educate women on how "not to get raped". why not educate men NOT TO RAPE? that might help too. I agree. Men need to be educated and it starts with their fathers.... so what you're saying is, don't even date, essentially, because it invloves cars and homes and parking that car, and if you let someone do that, then you're asking to be raped. How about getting to know the guy a lot better before allowing yourself in situations where sex might happen. How about not getting drunk or doing drugs? That's a good start. You can meet them somewhere for dinner and drive yourself home. and just to let you know, pepper spray may help, but it's not the lifesaver people think it might be. it's a little hard to grab when you're unexpectedly pounced on. Like I said, you can't prevent them all. All I am saying is if you're aware of it consciously and don't get drunk or do drugs, you at least - to some degree - lower the chances of it happening. How many times has someone said "I was drunk and didn't know what I was doing!!" Or they are on X or doing pot or some other drug. Next thing they know they wake up the next morning and say "I was date raped..." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you CAN do something to limit the chances of it happening. That's all I am saying. You can't stop it 100% unless you wear a chastity belt.
alphamale Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 what about men getting raped in prison by other men. we never hear about that. what about gay* men raping their male partners? we never hear about that. *not that there's anything wrong with that
SexKitten Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC I agree. Men need to be educated and it starts with their fathers.... How about getting to know the guy a lot better before allowing yourself in situations where sex might happen. How about not getting drunk or doing drugs? That's a good start. You can meet them somewhere for dinner and drive yourself home. because you can still be followed to your car, or held at gunpoint in a parking lot, or followed home. anything can happen, and sometimes no amount of protection can stop it. so really, the only answer is to stay home, ALONE, in your panic room, with your pepper spray and just be ready. for the rest of your life.
SexKitten Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale what about men getting raped in prison by other men. we never hear about that. what about gay* men raping their male partners? we never hear about that. *not that there's anything wrong with that ew. i think fewer people take pity on convicts, you know? plus a lot of them "turn temporarily gay" so that must mean they are asking for it or they wouldn't decide to be gay... NTTAWWT!!!
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by SexKitten because you can still be followed to your car, or held at gunpoint in a parking lot, or followed home. anything can happen, and sometimes no amount of protection can stop it. That's not "date" rape. That's flat out rape. At least having mace/pepper spray would help. so really, the only answer is to stay home, ALONE, in your panic room, with your pepper spray and just be ready. for the rest of your life. Nah. It's called "getting to know the guy better" first. It's called not drinking or doing drugs. It's called "situational awareness." You don't have to be paranoid about it. Just be CONSCIOUS of it when you're getting to know someone. Like I said, you can't prevent it completely but you CAN take steps to help avoid it.
SexKitten Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC That's not "date" rape. That's flat out rape. At least having mace/pepper spray would help. Nah. It's called "getting to know the guy better" first. It's called not drinking or doing drugs. It's called "situational awareness." You don't have to be paranoid about it. Just be CONSCIOUS of it when you're getting to know someone. Like I said, you can't prevent it completely but you CAN take steps to help avoid it. it IS date rape. if you meet someone for a DATE and he rapes you, it is date rape, not a random act. you can still be raped regardless of how well you know the person. and if you have to be so worried about it while trying to get to know them, what's the point? married women get raped by their husbands. i think they may know their husbands pretty well by then. that's it. i'm locking myself up. no access.
Craig Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by scratch I'd prefer that the laws be set to arrive at a place where (assuming 50 people are going to get screwed over) 30-35 men will be unjustly punished and 15-20 women have do deal with insult added to injury. This may sound good in theory but how would you like to be one of the innocent guys who are unjustly punished? What if you were sent away for 15 years and in year 8 of doing your time, compelling evidence is brought to the courts attention that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that you are innocent? Meanwhile you've lost everything you had, your home, family, friends, standing in the community, etc. and you have nothing but the clothes on your back when you walk out of prison. I vote that you do time for a crime you didn't commit.
scratch Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Craig This may sound good in theory but how would you like to be one of the innocent guys who are unjustly punished? What if you were sent away for 15 years and in year 8 of doing your time, compelling evidence is brought to the courts attention that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that you are innocent? Meanwhile you've lost everything you had, your home, family, friends, standing in the community, etc. and you have nothing but the clothes on your back when you walk out of prison. I vote that you do time for a crime you didn't commit. It DOESN'T sound good in theory. It sucks in theory, and is kind of a Hobson's choice problem - 50 people will get screwed by the system, how many should be men and how many should be women? Just because a question has no happy answers doesn't mean it doesn't need to be answered.
Craig Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by scratch It DOESN'T sound good in theory. It sucks in theory, and is kind of a Hobson's choice problem - 50 people will get screwed by the system, how many should be men and how many should be women? Just because a question has no happy answers doesn't mean it doesn't need to be answered. No person has to get screwed by the system IF the people in the system adhere to the principles upon which the system is based. If actual, competent investigations were carried out by the police far fewer people would be subjected to the horror of having their lives destroyed by being falsely accused and charged. Police and D.A.s are human and get lazy and find it easier just to charge someone without doing an adequate investigation. It happens every day to innocent men and women. Some of these people wind up doing time for a crime they didn't commit and in some cases could not have committed. The system didn't let these people down--it is the people within the system that let the system fail and let us all down. And hardly anyone cares. Once a person is convicted of a crime they didn't commit it is extremely hard to have anything done with the case. Even in cases where there is evidence such as DNA evidence that was not tested it is very difficult to "persuade" the "authorities" to test the DNA. The Innocence Project gets involved in cases where there there is a severe penalty given to the convicted and there is a good chance they are innocent for some reason. They have been instrumental in overturning over 100 death sentence convictions because the DNA evidence that was not tested by the police or D.A. showed that the convicted person could not have committed the crime. If it weren't for the Innocence Project over 100 innocent people would have been put to death. And what of Date Rape? In the case of a false accusation where no date rape occurred the D.A. can and will sometimes offer a plea to the accused. Something like Sexual Touching with a year probation. The poor sap that is accused of date rape doesn't have the money to fight the false accusation, is scared, alone, being treated like a criminal, is up against the relatively unlimited resources of the state and just wants the nightmare to go away so he accepts the plea to end it all. But it doesn't end there because now he's a sex offender and must register as a sex offender. Being convicted of a sex crime is going to f*ck him up in getting some jobs/careers and when he visits another country he may be asked if he's ever been arrested or convicted of a crime. If he answers truthfully he'll be treated like **** again even if he explains he didn't do it and may be denied entry into that country. And this goes on and on for the rest of his life all because some lazy cop and lazy D.A. didn't adhere to the principles of the system, didn't do a full and complete, competent investigation and were part of convicting an innocent man. Imagine what would happen if we introduced a level of personal responsibility for the individual investigators and D.A. Make them personally (as well as the state) accountable and liable for incompetence, misrepresentation, lying and etc. The innocent should not pay for the wrongdoing or incompetence of those who have sworn to protect them. Before a "fair" trial every citizen should be entitled to a fair, complete and competent investigation of the accusations made against them.
scratch Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by Craig No person has to get screwed by the system IF the people in the system adhere to the principles upon which the system is based. Asking for perfection from the people operating the system is akin to asking men to stop raping women and women to stop falsely accusing men against whom they seek vengance. Why not just do that? It seems to me that, while you claim to want fairness for the accused, all you seek to accomplish in practice is that all 50 of the people who the system fails be women who were raped.
Craig Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by scratch Asking for perfection from the people operating the system is akin to asking men to stop raping women and women to stop falsely accusing men against whom they seek vengance. Why not just do that? It seems to me that, while you claim to want fairness for the accused, all you seek to accomplish in practice is that all 50 of the people who the system fails be women who were raped. I ask for nothing more than would be expected of individuals in the private sector that are NOT protected by legislation from being held accountable for misrepresentation, fraud and negligence. Is it too much to ask for our public servants to be held to the same standards of accountability that we are? Don't ever assume that I ever seek to have the system fail any person.
blind_otter Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale what about men getting raped in prison by other men. we never hear about that. what about gay* men raping their male partners? we never hear about that. *not that there's anything wrong with that I just wanted to go on record (even though I am staying away from this thread, har har har) - prison rape is a rare occurance. Being that I've got 2 exs in prison - one in state, the other in federal (although the one in state prison is still being held in county unitl his trial where he will get his ass convicted, he has already been in state prison for 7 years prior to me meeting him). And I keep in touch with my exH in federal prison. For the most part there ARE men who temporarily turn gay while in prison for an extended period of time. So it's concentual sex, kind of. NOt to say sexual harassment doesn't go on, as it does, but the acutal physical act of rape is rare. At least nowadays. There was a big crack down about this in the 80s.
Craig Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter I just wanted to go on record (even though I am staying away from this thread, har har har) - prison rape is a rare occurance. Being that I've got 2 exs in prison - one in state, the other in federal (although the one in state prison is still being held in county unitl his trial where he will get his ass convicted, he has already been in state prison for 7 years prior to me meeting him). And I keep in touch with my exH in federal prison. For the most part there ARE men who temporarily turn gay while in prison for an extended period of time. So it's concentual sex, kind of. NOt to say sexual harassment doesn't go on, as it does, but the acutal physical act of rape is rare. At least nowadays. There was a big crack down about this in the 80s. From the U.S. Department of Justice - Bureau of Statistics, see: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/dcprea03.pdf On September 4, 2003, President Bush signed into law the Prison Rape Elimination Act of 2003. There have been only a few studies on the prevalence of sexual assault within correctional facilities. These studies are typically small in scale, covering only a few facilities, and generalizations to the national correctional population are not appropriate. The magnitude of sexual assault among prisoners is not currently well understood. A study of prisons (published Dec. 2000) in four Midwestern states found that approximately one in five male inmates reported a pressured or forced sex incident while incarcerated. About one in ten male inmates reported that that they had been raped. See: Sexual Coercion Rates In Seven Midwestern Prison Facilities for Men, Cindy & David Struckman-Johnson of the University of South Dakota and published in the Prison Journal. http://www.spr.org/pdf/struckman.pdf
alphamale Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by Craig A study of prisons (published Dec. 2000) in four Midwestern states found that approximately one in five male inmates reported a pressured or forced sex incident while incarcerated. About one in ten male inmates reported that that they had been raped. you beat me to it CRAIG... rape in the correctional system is more under-reported than in civilian life.
noname Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter I just wanted to go on record (even though I am staying away from this thread, har har har) - prison rape is a rare occurance. Being that I've got 2 exs in prison - one in state, the other in federal (although the one in state prison is still being held in county unitl his trial where he will get his ass convicted, he has already been in state prison for 7 years prior to me meeting him). And I keep in touch with my exH in federal prison. For the most part there ARE men who temporarily turn gay while in prison for an extended period of time. So it's concentual sex, kind of. NOt to say sexual harassment doesn't go on, as it does, but the acutal physical act of rape is rare. At least nowadays. There was a big crack down about this in the 80s. i was determined to stay out of this conversation because it was such a touchy subject. but this is totally determined by what prison, where in the prison the person is held, and whether or not it gets reported. prison rape is alive and kicking. i have family in cells, friends who are corrections officers, and two friends who are prison pychologists. prison rape is highly under-reported for several reasons. it is bad for the institutions and the systems reputation so reports are often ignored. and it the victims usually keep their mouths shut because they either fear for their lives, are just flat out embarrassed. this happens in both mens and womens prisons. it goes along the same line of not wanting to be dragged into the system. not to mention the stigma that many people put on "gay" sex. not only do you have to deal with being violated, but many men feel as though their manhood has been taken. so to avoid embarrassment, mums the word...
alphamale Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by noname not to mention the stigma that many people put on "gay" sex. not only do you have to deal with being violated, but many men feel as though their manhood has been taken. so to avoid embarrassment, mums the word... not to mention NONAME, that WTF will happen to the person committing the rape?! they are already in prison.
Horse Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC Start signing "pre-sex" contracts and solve the problem. "Here hon, could you sign this please???" That wouldn't work. The woman can rescind consent at any time, and if the guy continues it is rape. There was a case in California where, during consensual sex with two guys, the woman simply said "I think I should go home" once. The guy didn't stop right away was convicted.
noname Posted June 3, 2005 Posted June 3, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale not to mention NONAME, that WTF will happen to the person committing the rape?! they are already in prison. exactly. you report. the guy may get punished or not, but the word is out to him and his friends that you squealed and your either end up in a long term relationship as somebody's beyotch or you end up long term dead. what the hell does a lifer care about getting a few extra years tacked on?
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