blind_otter Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Sal Paradise Rape (of any kind) is a horrible, horrible thing but I'd much rather let a guilty rapist go free than lock up an innocent man. I feel that way about all crimes. There is no greater injustice than punishing a person for a crime they didn't committ. It's also why I'm against the death penalty. Our legal system is too flawed to allow a sentence that final. Absurd. Utterly ridiculous. I never did press charges against the first boy who raped me when I was 12. I later found out that he got into legal trouble for raping yet another girl. The same thing happened when I was raped AGAIN when I was 19. I was too afraid to go to the authorities because I didn't want to be put through the legal wringer, as I am now for being assaulted by my exboyfriend when he broke into my house. And to think that some people still think that women do something to "ask for it" I never asked for anything to happen to me. I never went around throwing my pussy about. You know what? I was a "virgin" when I was raped when I was 19. (Not really because I was raped when I was 12). I hadn't even had sexual intercourse with anyone yet. He got me drunk and when I asked him to drive me home, he drove me to his house and carried me bodily into his room. His roommate just laughed. Apparently they both engaged in this behavior quite frequently. A free rapist will commit his crime again and again. Most of the attitudes on this thread shocked me. I am appalled. I hope that none of you all have to experience the ultimate violation. I hope you never have to feel completely helpless while someone pins you down by kneeling on your knees and covers your mouth with their hand.
alphamale Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by BrotherAaron But the problem with the "date rape" law is that bogus claims are just as damaging as real clamis, because there is no burden of proof. Just one more example of how females are given preference in the U.S. court system.
BigB Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter Absurd. Utterly ridiculous. I never did press charges against the first boy who raped me when I was 12. I later found out that he got into legal trouble for raping yet another girl. The same thing happened when I was raped AGAIN when I was 19. I was too afraid to go to the authorities because I didn't want to be put through the legal wringer, as I am now for being assaulted by my exboyfriend when he broke into my house. And to think that some people still think that women do something to "ask for it" I never asked for anything to happen to me. I never went around throwing my pussy about. You know what? I was a "virgin" when I was raped when I was 19. (Not really because I was raped when I was 12). I hadn't even had sexual intercourse with anyone yet. He got me drunk and when I asked him to drive me home, he drove me to his house and carried me bodily into his room. His roommate just laughed. Apparently they both engaged in this behavior quite frequently. A free rapist will commit his crime again and again. Most of the attitudes on this thread shocked me. I am appalled. I hope that none of you all have to experience the ultimate violation. I hope you never have to feel completely helpless while someone pins you down by kneeling on your knees and covers your mouth with their hand. I fully agree with you Otter, rape is a terrible, terrible thing. There are very few crimes that are "worse" IMO. It does a lot of long term psychological damage. But BrotherAaron does have a point that there are girls going around, willingly engaging in consensual sex, and them crying rape in the morning. That's a problem. He's just asking that men be treated as innocent until proven guilty, and often in rape cases they are not.
alphamale Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by BigB I fully agree with you Otter, rape is a terrible, terrible thing. There are very few crimes that are "worse" IMO. It does a lot of long term psychological damage. personally I think that rape is a bad crime but it is not the worst. murder is worse, stealing old people's retirement money is worse, selling 10 year olds into prostitution is worse, millions of kids going to bed hungry every nite is worse. rape is in the middle of the pack when it comes to crime. and as far as "psychological trauma" is concerned, that can happen with anything traumatic. like being in vietnam, having herion junkies for parents, being mentally ill, watching your brother be killed as a child, etc.....
blind_otter Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 See that's the problem. I never did go to the authorities because I knew the reality - most men, if there is any question, DO get off the rape charge. What lingers is the social stigma because everyone "knows" that he was accused. Rape is a difficult thing to prosecute. The initial post demanded that there be an end to the current trends. Well, propose something. Propose to me what kind of date rape litigation reform could occur? Should there be physical evidence? There are tears to the vaginal opening when there is forced entry, unless the rapist is disgusting enough to use lubrication to prevent the tears. What do you propose that we do about this? The most ironic part of this is that most women who ARE raped are terrified of pressing charges because when you go through the legal system, they attack your credibility as a witness. I'm going through this right NOW with my exboyfriend, the psycho who broke down my door. I have to prove that I have credibility. It's absurd. And who wants to sit there, describing how their body was violated, over and over again. police report, deposition, on teh witness stand in front of a jury. It's an awful experience to go through. It rips you to shreds, really.
scarlyjones Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter most men, if there is any question, DO get off the rape charge. They do? How do you know that?
alphamale Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by scarlyjones They do? How do you know that? she doesn't...the fact is most rape prosecutions are successful, esp now with DNA fingerprinting and all. all u need is a hair or semen sample or even skin under the nails.
blind_otter Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by scarlyjones They do? How do you know that? I would look up the stats but I am too personally connected to this issue to continue posting on this thread without becoming utterly disgusted with the human race and its degredation. I'm still trying to get over being raped, so I'll just unsubscribe. l8tr folks.
blind_otter Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale she doesn't...the fact is most rape prosecutions are successful, esp now with DNA fingerprinting and all. all u need is a hair or semen sample or even skin under the nails. Fine. I found your effing statistics. Rape, Abuse, Incest National Network In 2003, there were 198,850 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. Only about 40% of rapes sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement in 2003. Since 1993, rape/sexual assault has fallen by over 65%. Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. 61% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Those rapists, of course, never serve a day in prison. This is what I'm talking about. Women like me, too afraid to go to the police. Because of what you have to go through to get a prosecution.
alphamale Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter This is what I'm talking about. Women like me, too afraid to go to the police. Because of what you have to go through to get a prosecution. of the cases that actually are reported and go to trial or are prosecuted most of the dudes are convicted and serve jail time (assuming they actually did it to begin with)
lindya Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Where you have a man and a woman alone together, putting aside the legalities and the morals, the man will generally be physically capable of having sex with the woman whether or not she consents. In most cases, where consent is lacking the man wouldn't press the issue as a matter of social conditioning, emotions, respect etc. From the woman's point of view, there is always a risk that the choice of whether or not to have sex will be forcibly removed from her. The law has to balance the need to protect people from false accusations with the need to protect people from violent crime. It's not an easy balance to reach, I'm sure. For God's sake though....surely it's not too much to ask that, before leaping on the bones of a woman they picked up 30 minutes ago, men check that it's okay to do so.
scarlyjones Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter [because of what you have to go through to get a prosecution. if someone goes through something as horrific as a rape,....why in the hell wouldnt they go through with trying to get a prosecution? How bad could getting a prosecution be to see that the scum doesnt get away with it? I think if you have been raped,....it becomes your DUTY to report it and see it through to prosecution,..otherwise,...how would you feel if you didnt and then heard a month later or so that the same guy did it again and this time killed his victim. And all YOU had to do was turn him in and that girl would still be alive,..her mother and father would still have a daughter..........the victims daughter would still have a mother.....etc...
Craig Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by blind_otter Propose to me what kind of date rape litigation reform could occur? Since it's just about as easy for a woman to get a man charged with date rape as it is for her to order a pizza, how about this for a start. If person is falsely accused and then charged with any crime as the result of an incompetent or incomplete investigation by the state he/she gets: - all legal bills paid by the state. - psychiatric counselling. 4 months for every month he/she was charged, paid by the state. - all medical bills remotely related to being charged paid for by the state. - marriage counselling. 4 months for every month he/she was charged. - a lump sum compensation of 10 times the average annual income for the time he/she was charged. - his/her credit rating restored. - at the option of the falsely accused and charged person the state will send letters of apology to everyone the victim requests explaining his/her innocence and the state's incompetence. - at the option of the falsely accused and charged person the state will run advertisements perhaps 1/4 page newspaper ads explaining that he/she was a victim of an incompetent system and should not be considered a criminal. Right now, people who are falsely accused of and then charged with a crime are left to fend for themselves while the the state marshals of of it's (read yours) potentially massive (relatively) resources in an effort to convict the person wrongly charged. After the dust settles the falsely accused person is left with a big mess to clean up both in their lives and in their head. The really crappy thing about this is that it happens every single day and it seems that no one is paying attention to it. The Innocence Project only has the resources to look at a small number of cases where the incarcerated may have been wrongly convicted and they only look at people with serious sentences like death.
alphamale Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Craig Since it's just about as easy for a woman to get a man charged with date rape as it is for her to order a pizza, how about this for a start. And a person who falsely accuses someone of rape or files a misleading police report should also be sent up the river for a minimum of 6 months to 1 yr.
scarlyjones Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Hello???....We are talking to YOU, Mrs. Runawaybride..
Craig Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale And a person who falsely accuses someone of rape or files a misleading police report should also be sent up the river for a minimum of 6 months to 1 yr. The state doesn't like to prosecute those that falsely accuse others of rape. They say that to do so might prevent legitimate victims from coming forward.
Craig Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by scarlyjones if someone goes through something as horrific as a rape,....why in the hell wouldnt they go through with trying to get a prosecution? How bad could getting a prosecution be to see that the scum doesnt get away with it? I think if you have been raped,....it becomes your DUTY to report it and see it through to prosecution,..otherwise,...how would you feel if you didnt and then heard a month later or so that the same guy did it again and this time killed his victim. And all YOU had to do was turn him in and that girl would still be alive,..her mother and father would still have a daughter..........the victims daughter would still have a mother.....etc... Scarlyjones, it takes a willingness to do the right thing. Some people don't realize or haven't reached a point in their life where they realize that the price to pay for living in a decent society (relatively speaking) is to take a stand when it might cost them to do so.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Mr Spock I always love how people that preach abstinence seem to think that the horny masses will find that need fufilled elsewhere. Where does one put sexual urges? What outlet is that directed into? Seems to me there will be an awful lot of bibles with sticky pages. Girlie mags yes. Bibles, no. Jennifer has a point. Abstinence has NO place in a rape thread. Sheesh. What's so ridiculous about it? By both men and women who are not married abstaining from sex, the date rate problem is solved. As far as malicious rape, I agree. You can't stop that you can only try and protect yourself. Bogus rape claims are just that-bogus. It's like bogus harassment claims. Bogus ANYTHING claims. It certainly doesn't make rape any less real for those who have experienced it. I think a better start to this topic would have been " Bogus rape claims really tick me off" The problem with bogus "date" rape claims is, it's a "he said, she said" thing that would certainly favor the woman. An abstinent male would never find himself in that position.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Mr Spock Now that IS silly. Halfway through the dirty deed if one party changes their mind are they now bound to complete the act? David Lee Roth had them back in the 70's. Most rock stars use them now. What's ridiculous about them? Stick a paragraph in there saying either can back out at any time. Come on folks, let's be real. It's about educating men that women are to be respected. I agree the male species is mostly responsible but women could be doing more to avoid date rape situations. (Not going to his place after the date or inviting him to yours, not getting drunk/stoned or otherwise using drugs, etc.) An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale And a person who falsely accuses someone of rape or files a misleading police report should also be sent up the river for a minimum of 6 months to 1 yr. How do you prove it either way?
scratch Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Craig The state doesn't like to prosecute those that falsely accuse others of rape. They say that to do so might prevent legitimate victims from coming forward. There should be two goals here - to maximize the number of actual rapists who are not convicted, and to minimize the number of false claims, which lead to suffering by the accused. Currently, these aims are in direct opposition - legislation designed to protect the accused necessarily disarms the accuser, and vice versa. So, we as a society have to make a compormise that results in a fair distribution of the suffering. Personally, I would draw that line as follows: Let's say you have 100 "victims," 50 men falsely accused and 50 women who were actually raped. If you have a law that totally protects the women, 50 men will be unjustly punished. If you have a law that places an unduly high burden of proof on the women, 50 women will have been violated without any retribution. Rather than either of those extreme options, I'd prefer that the laws be set to arrive at a place where (assuming 50 people are going to get screwed over) 30-35 men will be unjustly punished and 15-20 women have do deal with insult added to injury. I favor women here because I think they have slightly more to lose. That's what I think is fair. Not a solution (to an impossible problem), but a way to spread out the effects of the problem as evenly as possible.
alphamale Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC How do you prove it either way? how does one prove anything either way? prove god exists, prove michael jackson is guilty, prove the world is round...prove JFK was shot by multiple gunmen and that aliens exist. go ahead, I wait
scratch Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by alphamale prove the world is round I see your point, but it looks like you got a wee bit carried away.
SexKitten Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC What's so ridiculous about it? By both men and women who are not married abstaining from sex, the date rate problem is solved. rape is about power. sex is a part of it, but power is the bigger force. even if both decide to abstain, if one changes their mind and forces it, that's rape. it should be much easier to say "i am not going to rape someone" than "i am not going to have sex with a willing person." a man who is a potential rapist is not going to think "well, i did take a vow of abstinence, so this is wrong." come on. look at priests. abstinence didn't help them. if anything, it made it worse. do you think pedophiles are going to abstain? please. it's not about that. it would make a lot more sense to abstain from having sex with pepole who don't want to have sex with you. abstaining from sex is not going to "solve" the date rape problem. ***and yes, i do know people who have been raped, and i do know people who have accused rape and then retracted it for all sorts of reasons, some of them for lying. either way, rape is disgusting, and false accusations are too.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 I was coming at this from the perspective of a man who is worried that his friend will end up in jail, and thus with an immediate bias against date rape. It's not that there is no such thing as date rape. The problem is that the current definition of date rape is overbroad and can easily and readily be applied to situations that are in no way rape. Unfortunately, the currentt procedures for charging somebody with rape prove to be very damaging to the accused and the legitimate victims due to the amount of attention both parties recieve. Unfortunately, this damage and attention is exactly what makes this charge appealing to a psychopathic and vengeful girl. It is difficult for somebody to come out and say that they were raped. The victim feels ashamed, fearful, and used. They are afraid that people will blame her "She asked for it in that mini-skirt!", that she'll be labelled damaged, or that people will accuse her of lying. Life isn't much better for the falsely accused, either. Our family had to endure a lot of crap, even after the charges were dropped. Some people always give the woman the benefit of the doubt, even after admitting she lied. But that's RAPE - physically forcing somebody to have sex with you - and that's real. Rape is a wretched crime. I think that the date rape law being structured so that the man has to prove he has gotten verbal permission to have sex with a woman is ridiculous, because the only way he can prove this is to have recorded her on tape giving him this permission. Other than that, it's his word verse hers, and a single person's word should never be enough to convict somebody. I understand that rape may often time have the victim as the only witness, but it's not protecting anybody to give someone the power to put another person behind bars with no proof. Creating an over-broad definition of Date Rape causes people to dismiss it as ridiculous, and actually gives it a bad name. I feel the same way about sexual harrassment. I may go walk into my mother's house and say "Hi mom, you look nice today!" with a friendly smile. If I do the same thing at work to Susan down the hall, it's sexual harassment if she says it is. It doesn't matter what I meant by the statement, just as long as she wants to stick it to me, it doesn't matter. So, yes, rape is a horrible crime. There's a huge difference between being carried into a bedroom by a stranger, or telling somebody "no" and having yourself be ignored, and being a willing participant but later claiming that, due to a lack of 'verbalization of intent', either party is guilty of rape. It's absurd, and it trivializes actual rape cases.
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