BrotherAaron Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 I think that date rape is a load of crap. My friend got accused of date rape by a girl who was angry at him for not calling her back. All of a sudden, sex becomes rape. According to the law, if he did not get verbal permission to sexually touch her, than what he did is considered rape. I see a problem with this, because there are so many ways to say yes... and the more seductive ones are subtle. I mean, honestly, how many of us ask permission before we want to kiss somebody? These date rape laws demonize men and perpuate a social phobia of sex. It is assumed that a man has raped a woman unless otherwise proven. In the case that a woman has been drinking any amount, she can accuse the man of rape no matter how much he has been drinking himself. Traditionally, rape has been defined as occurring where a woman said 'no' to intercourse but was forced into it against her will. Under the new definition, says Sandler, the burden of proof is shifting to the accused to show that his partner said 'yes.' At one college campus, they even said that you have to have verbal permission before proceeding to each step (i.e. "may I hold your hand?", "May I kiss you"). What's next... are we going to have a notarized contract to avoid jailtime? The whole law blows a hole right through "innocent until proven guilty". The burden of proof should always be on the accuser. It's impossible to prove one's innocence. I want Date Rape Litigation Reform damnit
blind_otter Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 I probably shouldn't respond to this thread but I will. I was date raped. And yes I did say no, and stop, and it turned into a 4 hour long process of sexual torment and fear. Do I think women take advantage of the whole date rape thing? Yes. Do I think men take advantage of women who are so incapacitated that they can't verbalize anything? Yes. Don't say it's BS until you've experienced the ultimate violation. Step off the soap box. And yes, it IS polite to ask first. Especially if you don't even know the person you're trying to f***.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 Yet another reason for abstinence....as if all the STD's weren't enough already.
Bubbles Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 Well said blind! Well said!!! Those who cast judgement on date rape have usually not experienced it. I guess for a guy it's difficult for them to understand because men and women speak such different languages but........a man can be rapped too! All it takes is a hard-on (caught off guard) and a c*ck ring! That's it! You're hard and you're cuffed.......what are ya gonna do now? bubbles
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 1, 2005 Author Posted June 1, 2005 I'm sorry that happened to you B_O. I hope that the scum who did that to you is behind bars himself. The fact is, as polite as it may be to ask permission, people don't always initiate sex verbally. The problem is that, after the fact, the courts have no way to determine if the girl was in fact willing or not, and it's not fair to place the burden on the accused to probe that he did not in fact rape a girl. It's impossible to do. Even if a woman were to initiate sex, she could later say that, in fact, she didn't - and it'd be the man's job to prove that he in fact had her permission. There is no way to do this. My friend did not rape this girl, but he's facing jailtime anyway. He might have to live in a concrete cell for several years because some girl saw how much power this flawed law has given her - he's the one being violated in this situation.
moimeme Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 The fact is, as polite as it may be to ask permission, people don't always initiate sex verbally. The problem is that, after the fact, the courts have no way to determine if the girl was in fact willing or not, and it's not fair to place the burden on the accused to probe that he did not in fact rape a girl. It's impossible to do. Even if a woman were to initiate sex, she could later say that, in fact, she didn't - and it'd be the man's job to prove that he in fact had her permission. There is no way to do this. My friend did not rape this girl, but he's facing jailtime anyway. He might have to live in a concrete cell for several years because some girl saw how much power this flawed law has given her - he's the one being violated in this situation. Which, as CIOC pointed out, is a splendid reason for not having sex with people you don't know well and sometimes even then. Rosie Palmer and her five sisters are your best bet in the end, even if you do have to watch a little porn to get you going.
Bubbles Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 How do you know for sure that he was'nt "pushy" with her to get what he wanted? How do you know? There are a lot of men out there who do not realize how pushy they actually are! They think they are being playful when in actuality they are pressuring the girl into doing something that she really does not want to do.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 1, 2005 Author Posted June 1, 2005 Which, as CIOC pointed out, is a splendid reason for not having sex with people you don't know well and sometimes even then. Rosie Palmer and her five sisters are your best bet in the end, even if you do have to watch a little porn to get you going. That's the argument that people use to keep toughening this law. They want to discourage people from having sex. If a girl says no, and the guy has sex with her anyway, that's obviously rape. But just because she didn't flat out say yes doesn't mean that she was raped. Besides, the law applies to any sexual situation. She doesn't have to a stranger for you to rape her - and, by the same token, she doesn't have to be a stranger to take you to court for date rape. The law is too broad, like I said before, demonizes men sexually. Yes, a man can (technically) be "date raped", but he sure as hell does not get the benefit of the doubt.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 1, 2005 Author Posted June 1, 2005 Originally posted by Bubbles How do you know for sure that he was'nt "pushy" with her to get what he wanted? How do you know? They were seeing each other for several weeks. He had told me, at one point, that she was good in bed - because she was playful and initiated new things. The last encounter he had with her was when we all went to a movie a week before saturday. She was all over him the whole night, very physical, kissing, flirting, etc. We dropped her off, and she apparently pressed date rape charges after him not calling for a week. She sure as hell didn't act like she had gotten raped when I saw her, and this guy has been my close friend since grade school. He did not rape this girl.
Bubbles Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 As long as you are sure. Sometimes you think you know a person...........you know what I mean? bubbles
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 1, 2005 Author Posted June 1, 2005 Originally posted by Bubbles As long as you are sure. Sometimes you think you know a person...........you know what I mean? bubbles Yeah, I do. I've been through this before. My father was accused of rape by a woman at his work when I was no older than 5. It destroyed my family's life, and she ended up breaking down and admitting that she made it up. She'll never be able to make up for me seeing my own fathers picture in the newspaper listing him as an accused rapist at that age. Yes, people who are completely against date rape likely have never experienced it, but people who support the accusers unconditionally have not likely been falsely accused. If the burden of proof did not lie on the woman, I would have been raised with a father in jail.
LucreziaBorgia Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 A friend of mine spent a year in prison awaiting trial over something like this. A girl's grandfather came for a visit, and walked in on her having sex with him, and she immediately told him she was being raped (even though he caught her giving him oral sex). She has done the same to six other men - four before that happened, and two after that happened - in those cases it was a matter of consensual sex, followed by a phone call to the police after the guy left. She is pretty famous here for 'crying rape' - it got to where if a rape was reported on campus, it was pretty much a given she was the one reporting it. No one will have anything to do with her now, if indeed she even still lives around here. She got off scot free, but my friend - even after five years, is still f*cked up from being in prison.
alphamale Posted June 1, 2005 Posted June 1, 2005 Originally posted by BrotherAaron According to the law, if he did not get verbal permission to sexually touch her, than what he did is considered rape. Hmmm....if this is the legal definition of date rape then I should be in Levenworth doing 30-40yrs. I know I've banged at least 15 women without verbal consent. Usually I don't have to ask verbally, they just start taking their clothes off. Next thing ya know the ol' John Thomas is in the love tunnel.
Sal Paradise Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Bubbles As long as you are sure. Sometimes you think you know a person...........you know what I mean? bubbles You could also say the same thing about anyone who is accused of a crime or anyone who has ever accused anyone of a crime. The same thing could be said about any woman who accuses someone of date rape. Rape (of any kind) is a horrible, horrible thing but I'd much rather let a guilty rapist go free than lock up an innocent man. I feel that way about all crimes. There is no greater injustice than punishing a person for a crime they didn't committ. It's also why I'm against the death penalty. Our legal system is too flawed to allow a sentence that final.
Jennifer'sSecret Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC Yet another reason for abstinence....as if all the STD's weren't enough already. In the context of this thread, forgive me for saying it so bluntly, but this is the dumbest thing ever said. You can't abstain from being raped. And rape isn't an action taken to simply have sex with someone - it's a violent act of forcing control over another person. "Abstinence" has absolutely no place in a dialogue about rape.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Jennifer'sSecret In the context of this thread, forgive me for saying it so bluntly, but this is the dumbest thing ever said. You can't abstain from being raped. And rape isn't an action taken to simply have sex with someone - it's a violent act of forcing control over another person. "Abstinence" has absolutely no place in a dialogue about rape. And you can't possibly be that naive to think I meant only SHE should abstain. Abstinence is BOTH agreeing, not just her. Additionally, SHE should not let herself get into a position where she can be date raped. I am not saying it's completely preventable but you can take steps to avoid it and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what those steps are. Youe asumptions are pretty silly, that's for sure.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Jennifer'sSecret In the context of this thread, forgive me for saying it so bluntly, but this is the dumbest thing ever said. You can't abstain from being raped. And rape isn't an action taken to simply have sex with someone - it's a violent act of forcing control over another person. "Abstinence" has absolutely no place in a dialogue about rape. I think he meant that, as a guy, you should abstain to avoid being accused of date rape. He's almost right... the law makes another potential obstacle. Not usually a concern for people, but on college campuses they do a pretty good job of convincing girls that it's rape anytime a man seduces her. There is no greater injustice than punishing a person for a crime they didn't committ. I agree completely. That is the essence of my problem with the date rape law, structured as it is that a guy has to prove that he did not rape her. I guess that, after he proves he didn't, we should make her prove she's not a witch. That'd be progressive.
ConfusedInOC Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by BrotherAaron I think he meant that, as a guy, you should abstain to avoid being accused of date rape. Exactly. While I might not have made my point completely clear, abstinence is not exclusive to one sex. Her ridiculous retort was hardly necessary and proves why she deserves to be on my ignore list. I did have to peek at what she said and nearly fell over backwards laughing. I agree completely. That is the essence of my problem with the date rape law, structured as it is that a guy has to prove that he did not rape her. I guess that, after he proves he didn't, we should make her prove she's not a witch. That'd be progressive. Start signing "pre-sex" contracts and solve the problem. "Here hon, could you sign this please???"
Mr Spock Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 I always love how people that preach abstinence seem to think that the horny masses will find that need fufilled elsewhere. Where does one put sexual urges? What outlet is that directed into? Seems to me there will be an awful lot of bibles with sticky pages. Jennifer has a point. Abstinence has NO place in a rape thread. Sheesh. Bogus rape claims are just that-bogus. It's like bogus harassment claims. Bogus ANYTHING claims. It certainly doesn't make rape any less real for those who have experienced it. I think a better start to this topic would have been " Bogus rape claims really tick me off"
Mr Spock Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Start signing "pre-sex" contracts and solve the problem. "Here hon, could you sign this please???" Now that IS silly. Halfway through the dirty deed if one party changes their mind are they now bound to complete the act? Come on folks, let's be real. It's about educating men that women are to be respected.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by Mr Spock I always love how people that preach abstinence seem to think that the horny masses will find that need fufilled elsewhere. Where does one put sexual urges? What outlet is that directed into? Seems to me there will be an awful lot of bibles with sticky pages. Jennifer has a point. Abstinence has NO place in a rape thread. Sheesh. Bogus rape claims are just that-bogus. It's like bogus harassment claims. Bogus ANYTHING claims. It certainly doesn't make rape any less real for those who have experienced it. I think a better start to this topic would have been " Bogus rape claims really tick me off" But the problem with the "date rape" law is that bogus claims are just as damaging as real clamis, because there is no burden of proof. Rape is rape, I agree, but this particular law has given power to those who would falsely accuse. It needs changed. Not everyone wants to be abstinent.
BigB Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by ConfusedInOC Start signing "pre-sex" contracts and solve the problem. "Here hon, could you sign this please???" I saw on TV somewhere that after the Coby Bryant case this is now a recommended practice for pro sports players, rock bands, celebs, etc.
Author BrotherAaron Posted June 2, 2005 Author Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by BigB I saw on TV somewhere that after the Coby Bryant case this is now a recommended practice for pro sports players, rock bands, celebs, etc. Wow. Score one more for the feminazis and their castrated man-puppets. Next we'll be issuing "Licenses to Partake in Sexual Intercourse" with a background check and a 3-day waiting period.
lindya Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Sometimes I hear people arguing about the status quo favouring alleged rape victims, and wonder what planet they inhabit. Maybe it's not so much a question of planets as jurisdictions. Where I live, over-reliance on the "not proven" verdict can mean that even where there is strong medical and circumstantial evidence to indicate that a violent rape took place jurors will generally prefer to opt for the "not proven" verdict. Previous convictions for sexual offences aren't admissible as evidence against the accused except in exceptional circumstances (eg the defence counsel attempting to seriously mislead the court). There are few convictions, despite the requirement for a high standard of evidence to be met before the trial can even go ahead. Not every man who is accused is guilty. Equally, not every woman who claims she was raped on a date is crying wolf. There is such a thing as rape, and it is quite rightly considered to be a serious criminal offence.
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