last steps in healing

[xxoo]

not really...

 

Yes, really. He stayed.

 

It's bewildering to me that you focus so much on his infidelity after your infidelity. What did you expect to happen?

 

Did you anticipate consequences?Did you want him to leave? Did you think he'd suffer "cleanly" for you, never taking revenge, and that would somehow prove his love?

 

You have a really wonderful, long suffering husband. He's not willing to be your whipping post, and that just makes him sexier. Someone else will appreciate him if you won't.

[Mrs. John Adams]

xxoo...I agree 100%

[Mr Blunt]

Originally Posted by Mrs. John Adams

Most men... Many men... Would walk away... Ours stayed and love us in spite of our infidelity. Can you do the same for him dear lady?

 

 

By Katielee

absolutely. forgiven.

but no more.

 

i do not see infidelity when I look at him. at all. I see a good man who has worked hard and sacrificed for our family and to be with me.

 

I just don't understand why i'm unhappy then... i have no idea.

I have an idea why you are unhappy. You are unhappy because you have not forgiven yourself and done the follow up work to become more of a giver than a person that is more needy than you need to be.

 

 

You want him to sacrifice his job and security and move away so that you can be reassured that you are loved, and are his top priority. He is not going to make you his top priority in everything. He is not going to put his security in your hands because he is afraid of being crushed again.

He wants you to accept the job and place you live and have positive experiences with no fighting or conflict. You do not accept this.

Right now you are looking to him to fill a hole in you that you cannot describe. Part of that hole is you not forgiving yourself and NOT becoming strong enough to be content with a man that you yourself have described as a good man. When you do not forgive yourself you become too needy and no person can fill that hole if you do not forgiving yourself and remain so needy.

Find out how to forgive yourself, and then forgive yourself. Find out how to build yourself up then do it; then you will be strong enough to accept the reality of your situation. Your situation is that there is infidelity in your marriage from both spouses and the consequences right now are that you and your husband are not going to sacrifice to any great degree for each other. In addition, you both will not trust each other with your security and choices in life.

The 100% trust is broken and it will take a lot of time and work to get that trust back up to a high enough level so that your sacrifice for each other, security, and choices will be improved. He is not going to give you enough emotional intimacy so that the hole in your life will be filled. Without you getting stronger in body, mind, a spirit you are not going to be content with your life. IMO

I do think that your marriage can be a good one, better than it is now, but you both need improvement in your attitudes and actions.

 

[xxoo]

I've also wondered if the reason you can't be happy, and the reason these OW bother you so much, is that you can't forgive yourself.

 

You had the affair because you felt low. Predictably, the affair resulted in you feeling lower--both because of the guilt, and the consequential loss of your husband's fidelity and devotion. It's the same problem, just worse than before the affair.

[merrmeade]

I've wondered something reading back through some of your threads - I mean besides the thing I always point out about not knowing what he thinks or feels about subjects that bother you - and it's related, but I'm going to ask about it in a roundabout way.

 

Would you be as willing to accept his (don't remember exactly how you put it) considerable efforts to provide and work for you as an expression of commitment if he brought in only a modest to meager income? Would you be as accepting of his guardedness and inability/unwillingness to open up to you?

 

Just wondering ...

[MuddyFootprints]

Seriously? You are going to project financial security her goal here, when she's admitted to not only loving him, but being in love with him?

 

You've accused WS posters here of having no real clue.

[merrmeade]

Seriously? You are going to project financial security her goal here, when she's admitted to not only loving him, but being in love with him?

 

You've accused WS posters here of having no real clue.

No, I'm trying to get at why she lets him off the hook? I don't get it. She's asked what does he think, what does he say about x, y, z and she doesn't know. She says she doesn't want to go through the upset and turmoil of another hard discussion, which I understand. But when do they talk?

 

And it is a valid question. Sometimes it's hard to think about rocking the boat because everything is so comfortable and, well, he works hard at making it that way and it's to be appreciated (for real - not said tongue in cheek at all).

[MuddyFootprints]

Conflict avoidance on both of their part. The discussions are uncomfortable. It's not healthy, but it's not based on financial sustenance, as far as I can read.

 

Addressing the guilt, the shame, the fear is crucial for this couple. They both need to expose their deepest vulnerabilities to each other.

[katielee]

No, I'm trying to get at why she lets him off the hook? I don't get it. She's asked what does he think, what does he say about x, y, z and she doesn't know. She says she doesn't want to go through the upset and turmoil of another hard discussion, which I understand. But when do they talk?

 

And it is a valid question. Sometimes it's hard to think about rocking the boat because everything is so comfortable and, well, he works hard at making it that way and it's to be appreciated (for real - not said tongue in cheek at all).

 

I get all kinds of advice, I swear. The majority are urging me to simply accept this is how it is. Others say we need to have the hard discussions... I'm not talking about these things to make it EASY for him. This is what HE wants... Thus the giving him what he wants....

 

Yes, I would be willing to accept less provisions for me. It was never a financial thing. I can provide for myself and we can live very comfortably with less money from either side....

His self worth (or at least some of it) is tied to how much he makes. I think this is true for many men.

[katielee]

I've also wondered if the reason you can't be happy, and the reason these OW bother you so much, is that you can't forgive yourself.

 

 

I'd like to explore this more... I've tried to forgive myself.. I know I'm done being punished for what I did..

 

last night I told him I know how hard it is to stay with me and that he must really love me a lot! He said the same thing back to me...

Edited December 22, 2015 by katielee

[Mrs. John Adams]

I'd like to explore this more... I've tried to forgive myself.. I know I'm done being punished for what I did..

 

last night I told him I know how hard it is to stay with me and that he must really love me a lot! He said the same thing back to me...

 

Katielee.... we are ALL hard to stay with. Everyone has stuff....

 

I would like for you to explain to me how you have been punished. I think this is interesting......what has he done to punish you?

[katielee]

Originally Posted by Mrs. John Adams

Most men... Many men... Would walk away... Ours stayed and love us in spite of our infidelity. Can you do the same for him dear lady?

 

 

 

I have an idea why you are unhappy. You are unhappy because you have not forgiven yourself and done the follow up work to become more of a giver than a person that is more needy than you need to be.

 

 

You want him to sacrifice his job and security and move away so that you can be reassured that you are loved, and are his top priority. He is not going to make you his top priority in everything. He is not going to put his security in your hands because he is afraid of being crushed again.

He wants you to accept the job and place you live and have positive experiences with no fighting or conflict. You do not accept this.

Right now you are looking to him to fill a hole in you that you cannot describe. Part of that hole is you not forgiving yourself and NOT becoming strong enough to be content with a man that you yourself have described as a good man. When you do not forgive yourself you become too needy and no person can fill that hole if you do not forgiving yourself and remain so needy.

Find out how to forgive yourself, and then forgive yourself. Find out how to build yourself up then do it; then you will be strong enough to accept the reality of your situation. Your situation is that there is infidelity in your marriage from both spouses and the consequences right now are that you and your husband are not going to sacrifice to any great degree for each other. In addition, you both will not trust each other with your security and choices in life.

The 100% trust is broken and it will take a lot of time and work to get that trust back up to a high enough level so that your sacrifice for each other, security, and choices will be improved. He is not going to give you enough emotional intimacy so that the hole in your life will be filled. Without you getting stronger in body, mind, a spirit you are not going to be content with your life. IMO

I do think that your marriage can be a good one, better than it is now, but you both need improvement in your attitudes and actions.

 

 

I agree with part of this..I think forgiving oneself is harder than simply making a decision... It has to be felt deep within. If I haven't forgiven myself and it is impacting this choice then I don't know how to.

However, I do consider myself a giver. Every day he drives off and works next door to OW1. I think this is incredibly giving of me. If you knew me IRL you would say I'm a huge giver. I took care of his mom when his dad died.. I send him to work with homemade goodies so he is the hero of the bank. I do this ALL THE TIME. And that is probably the number one reason he loves me - because I am a giver.

[Mrs. John Adams]

So your husband works in the office next to OM1? Was that relationship sexual? and how long did it last?

 

That would be scary I admit.....

[katielee]

Katielee.... we are ALL hard to stay with. Everyone has stuff....

 

I would like for you to explain to me how you have been punished. I think this is interesting......what has he done to punish you?

 

I think I'm referring to more self punishment, Mrs. JA. Not thinking I'm worthy, beating myself up.. when ppl talk about what the OW had that the BS doesn't and then folks go on and on about how the BS has integrity and morals, etc.. I can't say that about myself. I can't ever think I'm better than them because I did the same thing. I think that attitude is what helps some BS through this.. the moral high road.

although I consider RA to be punishment too.

[katielee]

So your husband works in the office next to OM1? Was that relationship sexual? and how long did it last?

 

That would be scary I admit.....

 

OW1 yes. It was physical but I don't think they had sex. making out.

It's in a different building but right next door. It lasted a month. He is supposed to tell me when he sees her. He saw her twice the first week, and then a year later said he saw her twice a month (after not telling me anything that entire year) . and apparently in three years he hasn't seen her since....

[katielee]

Yes, really. He stayed.

 

It's bewildering to me that you focus so much on his infidelity after your infidelity. What did you expect to happen?

 

Did you anticipate consequences?Did you want him to leave? Did you think he'd suffer "cleanly" for you, never taking revenge, and that would somehow prove his love?

 

You have a really wonderful, long suffering husband. He's not willing to be your whipping post, and that just makes him sexier. Someone else will appreciate him if you won't.

 

disagree. he left for a while. I understand one affair. but not two. And I'm standing by that. the fact that MrJA said 10 affairs wouldn't have made up for one of hers confounds me. I get that it doesn't take away the pain. But people cannot just continue to act out without consequences...

I even warned him =- the next person most likely to have an affair is a BS. And we were in MC and he was in IC.

I didn't anticipate consequences, nor do most ppl in affairs, ask most WS.

And I think your posts to me are very insulting.

but let's say we're equal , and I've forgiven him, why do I have to put up with anything more?

Edited December 22, 2015 by katielee

[merrmeade]

It's bewildering to me that you focus so much on his infidelity after your infidelity. What did you expect to happen?

I think, after reading other posts in which madhatters (hate that expression) - MH ok? - DON'T have hangups or are in-between, that like anything, there's a spectrum, and she's where she is on it because of her individual and couple circumstances and inherent issues. One MH posting recently said she didn't monitor, didn't care how her BH/WH handled potential OW breaks through NC, just so he handled it. Don't remember if the spouse still worked with the OW, however.

 

And that's another individual issue: the BS actually seeing, running into OW or knowing that the WS sees the AP because of family or work circumstances.

I've also wondered if the reason you can't be happy, and the reason these OW bother you so much, is that you can't forgive yourself.

It's extremely basic. No matter how recovered you are, no matter how many times you're told that it had nothing to do with you, the fact is that during the time of the A, your spouse had replaced you in part at least. The fact of the betrayal: He had sex with someone else. He lied. Basic. And the OW stands for that, was complicit.

[katielee]

You are unhappy because you are choosing to be....do you understand that?

 

My God....here's an idea...divorce him and see how fast someone else snatches him up....because I am telling you...he's a catch!...and the sad thing is ...YOU KNOW IT!

 

Stop the DRAMA Katielee...just stop it.

 

You see a good man who wants you...what more can he possibly do? He has validated you in every way he knows how...and you are still crying it isn't enough.

 

I see a woman who is continuing to be selfish....BUT WHAT ABOUT MY NEEDS? Do you even know what the hell it is you want? and if you don't know...he certainly cannot.

 

Katie...please....look at what you are doing here....pure self destruction.

 

will you stop posting on my threads. I've about had enough..

[Mrs. John Adams]

yes Katielee...I will stop posting on your threads....i wish you the very best. I have tried to be very kind and understanding...and I did not think I was disrespectful to you in any way.

 

I apologize if I hurt you. I truly am sorry. That was the very last thing I wanted to do.

[katielee]

yes Katielee...I will stop posting on your threads....i wish you the very best. I have tried to be very kind and understanding...and I did not think I was disrespectful to you in any way.

 

I apologize if I hurt you. I truly am sorry. That was the very last thing I wanted to do.

 

 

you were except for that post I quoted. I do appreciate your responses for me to dig deeper. But if simply making a decisions were all that easy I'd make it and be done. This is not how I'm wired. God, I'd love to be though.

 

I truly understand that there is something going on that has nothing to do with him. I just don't know what it is or HOW to get there.

[xxoo]

disagree. he left for a while. I understand one affair. but not two. And I'm standing by that. the fact that MrJA said 10 affairs wouldn't have made up for one of hers confounds me. I get that it doesn't take away the pain. But people cannot just continue to act out without consequences...

I even warned him =- the next person most likely to have an affair is a BS. And we were in MC and he was in IC.

I didn't anticipate consequences, nor do most ppl in affairs, ask most WS.

And I think your posts to me are very insulting.

but let's say we're equal , and I've forgiven him, why do I have to put up with anything more?

 

Exactly. One affair would be understandable. One understandable affair vs. your completely unwarranted affair.

 

What you did cut him down at the knees. Not understandable. His second affair approached that level, but will never be as shocking as cheating on a faithful, loving partner.

 

I don't mean to insult you. I do think you need a shift in perspective to save your marriage.

 

What is he currently doing that you need to "put up with"?

[katielee]

Exactly. One affair would be understandable. One understandable affair vs. your completely unwarranted affair.

 

What you did cut him down at the knees. Not understandable. His second affair approached that level, but will never be as shocking as cheating on a faithful, loving partner.

 

I don't mean to insult you. I do think you need a shift in perspective to save your marriage.

 

What is he currently doing that you need to "put up with"?

 

yeah, I just disagree with this. He saw what his first one did to me, and then purposely sought another one out. what we both did was effing cruel. Fine, we were cruel to each other. but, we have moved beyond that.

my point - neither of us should have to "move beyond" anything else. its been too much - for both sides. which is why I won't force a move. I would just go by myself.

 

all affairs - completely unwarranted IMO - WS betray themselves first when they decide to have one... it's not a healthy way to resolve conflict.

Edited December 22, 2015 by katielee
another sentence

[xxoo]

yeah, I just disagree with this. He saw what his first one did to me, and then purposely sought another one out. what we both did was effing cruel. Fine, we were cruel to each other. but, we have moved beyond that.

my point - neither of us should have to "move beyond" anything else. its been too much - for both sides. which is why I won't force a move. I would just go by myself.

 

It has been more cruelty than any marriage should have, on both sides. Way more. So why do you keep holding onto the 1 vs. 2?

 

You won't move, because you know your life is better with him. So why keep torturing yourself? Is it pride?

 

eta...I'd never say the WS makes a good choice by having an RA. I just understand it, while I don't understand cheating on a faithful, loving spouse.

[katielee]

It has been more cruelty than any marriage should have, on both sides. Way more. So why do you keep holding onto the 1 vs. 2?

 

You won't move, because you know your life is better with him. So why keep torturing yourself? Is it pride?

 

eta...I'd never say the WS makes a good choice by having an RA. I just understand it, while I don't understand cheating on a faithful, loving spouse.

 

 

maybe pride, I dunno... my sense of justice is offended I think. I'm sure his was offended when I had my affair - deeply.

But If we're equal (and here I'm calling 1 = 2) and he ran my AP out of town because he didn't want him here then I think he should be WAY more understanding of how hard it is for me to stay here. That IS effing ALL I AM ASKING FOR!

I don't understand any affair. Again, why betray your own values to prove a point?

[xxoo]

maybe pride, I dunno... my sense of justice is offended I think. I'm sure his was offended when I had my affair - deeply.

But If we're equal (and here I'm calling 1 = 2) and he ran my AP out of town because he didn't want him here then I think he should be WAY more understanding of how hard it is for me to stay here. That IS effing ALL I AM ASKING FOR!

I don't understand any affair. Again, why betray your own values to prove a point?

 

You think he doesn't understand how hard it is for you to stay there? You think that if he understood, he would move? I wouldn't assume that. It's hard. Run them out of town if you need to. He'd probably understand that, but not moving. Notice that he didn't move to get away from your OM. He's staying in his town and his job, regardless of the other nonsense.

 

Why did you betray your values? Not thinking clearly. Following emotion. Same.