last steps in healing

[katielee]

You know, I could work really hard to get over triggers. I could be doing mindfulness stuff, and tell myself things- "he chose me, she's no longer a threat, we're doing fine" but part (most) of me is like- no. I've effing done enough. I did one, he did two. I'm done trying to accept anything else. I'm done with the mental gymnastics. If it was just one time or if he had actually confessed yo either, I think I could do it. It might be score keeping, it might be just my frigging line in the sand.

 

Xxoo - I get what you're saying. He has made his choice of what he will do. I will either stay and accept, leave without him or leave and stay in town. There will be no ultimatums from me before we retire. The question is that I don't know what I can currently accept. THAT is the problem.

Although Mrs JA is right- we are good together and fairly happy! We are at the lake right now. The feeling of safety I have right now is fantastic.

I feel a shift in more trust - between both of us - now too. I'm convinced that has only come with time.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee...I understand some of what you say...but some confuses me.

 

You are happiest when it is just the two of you away from real life...at the lake. Oh believe me...I get it. John travels a lot...and insecurities creep in when we are apart. But when he is home...we both feel safe.

 

Your lake home is your safe haven...I am so glad you have a place to escape to.

 

We look forward to retirement...when we can be together all the time...safe in each other.

 

 

As for the rest of your post...it bothers me...because I hear fear in your tone...I hear disappointment....I hear anger and resentment....and I think wait a minute katielee.....

 

You have done enough? You agree that the work is never done...that it continues forever but you have done enough? You are contradicting yourself.

 

You sound tired...have you reached a place that says..ok it just isn't worth this anymore? Have you drawn your line in the sand....and are now waiting for the showdown?

 

I don't believe it! Not for a second! You are a fighter! You may be in a down time....but you will push yourself and the fight will return.

 

But I do think you need to ask yourself some questions.....Is your marriage worth fighting for? Is it worth more time and effort? Is HE worth it? Maybe you should take a really hard look at your bottom line.....is your marriage worth staying in...just the way it is? Because what if this is as good as it gets?

 

Can you settle? And do you know that it is ok if you can't...right?

 

No one can decide how much you can take...and it truly doesn't matter what anyone else thinks. This is about you....what do you need?

[xxoo]

You know, I could work really hard to get over triggers. I could be doing mindfulness stuff, and tell myself things- "he chose me, she's no longer a threat, we're doing fine" but part (most) of me is like- no. I've effing done enough. I did one, he did two. I'm done trying to accept anything else. I'm done with the mental gymnastics. If it was just one time or if he had actually confessed yo either, I think I could do it. It might be score keeping, it might be just my frigging line in the sand.

 

Xxoo - I get what you're saying. He has made his choice of what he will do. I will either stay and accept, leave without him or leave and stay in town. There will be no ultimatums from me before we retire. The question is that I don't know what I can currently accept. THAT is the problem..

 

You both did the unthinkable. You both did the unforgivable.

 

I think you have to let go of the idea that you can control him before you can figure out what you can/can not accept. As it is, you keep considering options that he's not offering, and that's confusing the issue, not to mention frustrating you. Focus on what is. This is the reality that you and your husband created together. Can you accept life as it is?

[katielee]

. Can you accept life as it is?

 

That's just it. I don't know. He's made it clear how he wants it to go. Can I accept the status quo? Well I guess I have so far. But I'm pissed about it.

[katielee]

MrsJA- I will never stop working at trying to be a healthy partner. I will work hard at honesty, transparency, getting past FOO issues, making him feel safe.

I am just saying my chin is UP TO THE line as for as what I can accept as a livable situation.

 

Sometimes ppl say that as I get healthier myself the other things will fall into play. That hasn't happened yet. I certainly have compassion and empathy for the situation I put him in and his acting out of that pain. Forgiven. Just no more reminders, please, and can we now have a better relationship than before?

[Mrs. John Adams]

xxoo...I disagree with you that we did the unforgivable....I understand your point....but infidelity is absolutely a forgivable thing....not everyone chooses to forgive it...but it is forgivable.

 

Katielee....I was thinking about this overnight.....and i am kind of thinking out loud so bear with me.

 

Do you think that perhaps you need to stop IC....do you think it would now be beneficial to stop concentrating on you as an individual.....and to concentrate on "you" as a couple. What I mean by that is....is it possible that because you are trying so hard to "tune" into your needs....that because he is not "meeting" them...it causes you to be angry....which he can feel? He knows you love him...he knows you are working hard on fixing you....but he also knows because you tell him verbally and in body language that he is missing the mark for you.

 

Do you think that it might be more beneficial at this time to concentrate on your issues as a couple.....can you begin discussions about the two of you together? Can you put a positive spin on the things you are both doing right? instead of the things you are doing wrong?

 

Can you take that "special something" that you share at the lake...back home with you? Is the lake the place where you just concentrate on the two of you together?

 

I feel you are so frustrated....and if i can feel your frustrations....he has to be able to feel them....and he pulls back....If he treated you the way you treat him....what message would he receive? and vice versa? You know him better than anyone.....you know his response to conflict...his response to disappointment.....his response to failure.......what messages are you sending him?...and how do you expect him to respond?

 

Katielee....I truly care about you....and i know i have sometimes been more harsh than i should have been. I want you to be successful in your reconciliation...you have worked so hard.

 

Think about what i have said....and if you think i am totally off base....I understand....I just thought maybe i could stimulate you to step back and take another look...and maybe you can find how to reevaluate.

[xxoo]

MrsJA- I will never stop working at trying to be a healthy partner. I will work hard at honesty, transparency, getting past FOO issues, making him feel safe.

I am just saying my chin is UP TO THE line as for as what I can accept as a livable situation.

 

Sometimes ppl say that as I get healthier myself the other things will fall into play. That hasn't happened yet. I certainly have compassion and empathy for the situation I put him in and his acting out of that pain. Forgiven. Just no more reminders, please, and can we now have a better relationship than before?

 

The reminders are not something he is doing to you. The reminders just are a reality of pooping where you eat, which you both did.

 

If you could stop blaming him for the reminders, and considering it something he needs to fix for you, you might be able to work on that better relationship.

[katielee]

MrsJA- we treat each other exactly the same. We are compassionate and giving and loving. We NEVER (maybe the last time was a year ago) speak of the things I talk about here. I would give up IC in a minute to have couples discussions...but we don't talk about things like that.

We are really good at telling each other how much we appreciate the other. And we do! I actually kind if feel dishonest in talking with IC or here about unhappiness. I don't know if he has a clue. He knows I want to be happier, we both want to turn back time.., that's about the extent of it.

[understand50]

xxoo...I disagree with you that we did the unforgivable....I understand your point....but infidelity is absolutely a forgivable thing....not everyone chooses to forgive it...but it is forgivable.

 

This thought is so true. I would like to add there are two sides to it, on your betrayed spouse forgiving you and you forgiving yourself, and moving on to build the marriage and relationship you want. Forgiveness is not only possible, but in the end needed for reconciliation. The BS forgiving, and not "holding" against you 24/7 is a one going thing. There are time, I get mad for all the past things my wife has done, but I remember that we have worked it out and have moved past it. Does not mean I forgot it, or do not acknowledge it happened. The next part, forgiving yourself, again you do not forget what you did, but do not live so in the past you can not give what is best in you to your spouse now.

 

The reminders are not something he is doing to you. The reminders just are a reality of pooping where you eat, which you both did.

 

If you could stop blaming him for the reminders, and considering it something he needs to fix for you, you might be able to work on that better relationship.

 

I wish this was stated better, but the idea has merit. Katielee, you have been on both sides, and I do not mean to diminish the pain you feel from his affairs. I just would like you to consider, that in the end the triggers are something that you will have to beat. He can do all and everything to help, but you need to look at them for what they are, a feeling from the past, that can be handled and put aside for the reward of living in the now.

 

MrsJA- we treat each other exactly the same. We are compassionate and giving and loving. We NEVER (maybe the last time was a year ago) speak of the things I talk about here. I would give up IC in a minute to have couples discussions...but we don't talk about things like that.

We are really good at telling each other how much we appreciate the other. And we do! I actually kind if feel dishonest in talking with IC or here about unhappiness. I don't know if he has a clue. He knows I want to be happier, we both want to turn back time.., that's about the extent of it.

 

Katielee,

 

We cannot turn back time, all we can do if go forward. The old adage of counting your blessing for today is a good one. When this feeling comes on, and when you are feeling blue, can you look at how far you have come and give you and your spouse credit? Most couples would have divorced and be done with each other. You two have not. From what you state above, you have more going for both of you, in your marriage then a lot of other folks. When I think of the "bad" past, I try and remind myself of all the good that we have together.

 

I think you both need to talk, and I would encourage you to find a way to do so. We keep a monthly "nothing off the table, anything can be brought up" time. The trick is we keep any bad stuff there and only there.

 

As always I wish you luck......

[road]

xxoo...I disagree with you that we did the unforgivable....I understand your point....but infidelity is absolutely a forgivable thing....not everyone chooses to forgive it...but it is forgivable.

 

 

 

Nothing is absolutely forgivable.

 

 

Because some can forgive something does not mean that others can.

 

 

Sometimes it maybe best to forgive an affair and sometimes it maybe best to divorce.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Road... I believe said that some do not forgive... You even quoted me. It is forgivable but not everyone can forgive

Edited December 20, 2015 by Mrs. John Adams

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee... We all wish we could just undo it

We all wish it would go away

But the reality is... It happened

We can let it continue to let it tear us apart.. Individually and as a couple ... Or we can learn from what we have done and use those lessons to make us better people and better couples.

 

It is not easy.... But we can be successful. We concentrate on the positives... And try to fix the negatives. The important thing is we do it together.

 

When we committed adultery... We removed ourselves mentally from being a couple... We became self absorbed and only concentrated on our needs. I think to fix what we have broken... We have to cling together ... Support each other... And concentrate on the now.... Because we cannot change the past.

 

If I read your post correctly.. You don't discuss the issues anymore. If this is true... If you do not tell him what you need... How will he know?

That's how we got here to begin with.

I did not tell John what I needed or wanted... Instead I turned to someone else If I had told John to begin with.. Maybe I would not be here.

 

You say you want your husband to move you away from the triggers... Yet if you don't tell him how will he know?

 

If you only come to ls and to ic to complain about him but you don't tell him... He cannot possibly give you what you need... Because you told us but you did not tell hm.

 

When John first told me he had joined a forum I was angry. How dare you tell strangers about me.

 

But now.. I see that it taught me so much. I am a better person...

 

Maybe n the future you can tell your husband you are here... But meanwhile you at least have to be honest with him.. Or the resentment will continue to build

And that's how you got n this position to begin with

 

You owe it to both of you to tell him

[katielee]

He knows I post here. I invited him to join but he didn't want to. Of course he knows I go to IC. I have asked for more emotional intimacy. Maybe a month ago? He knows how I feel about living here. We have talked about these issues repeatedly. But haven't for a while. What would be the point to keep bringing it up? He knows how I feel/what I need. His thought on recovery is no conflict or fighting. Positive experiences...

I have done what he has wanted and not brought it up. I have not seen either OW since April I think so there has been no talk of it- so no triggers I can't handle by myself. Although I do keep my eye out.

 

The part about him not being able to fix my triggering when I see them? And just accepting this as part and parcel of recovery? This is SO very difficult for me to understand. I would leave in a heartbeat if my AP lived here, so I just can't wrap my head around it. It makes me feel not prioritized.

[road]

Road... I believe said that some do not forgive... You even quoted me. It is forgivable but not everyone can forgive

 

 

This time you left out the "absolutely" and this changed the meaning in your two posts.

[xxoo]

The part about him not being able to fix my triggering when I see them? And just accepting this as part and parcel of recovery? This is SO very difficult for me to understand. I would leave in a heartbeat if my AP lived here, so I just can't wrap my head around it. It makes me feel not prioritized.

 

Reading your threads, I've long since thought that the root issue is you feeling not prioritized, and seeking validation. Is this why you cheated in the first place?

 

I feel that the way out of these mental gymnastics is to see ALL the cheating as "we". That's what "we" did. Forget one and two. His is really not less forgivable than yours (which was the point of the forgivable thing....either they are or aren't forgivable, but they are equally so).

 

So basically you have a marriage pre-infidelity that was unsatisfying for reasons. Then you have the mess of combined cheating. Lump that together. And now you have two hurt partners still dealing with whatever issues made the marriage unsatisfying in the first place.

 

Subtract the combined cheating mess. It really isn't he/she. It's we. Own it together and stop looking to him to right his wrongs with the cheating (an impossible task). Deal with the primary marriage issues. If that is you needing to feel prioritized, examine that. Is your need for validation reasonable? Is it a personal issue? Work on the root issues and you may find that you are better able to see the combined cheating as a mess that has little lasting significance to your improved marriage.

[MuddyFootprints]

Do you ever discuss random things that come up on this site (or other sites) with your husband? Not necessarily your personal issues, just an interesting post or thread that you've read? Something that's fired you up or made you think?

 

At first it was uncomfortable for me to bring up and for him to discuss, but there were a lot of insightful conversations that resulted from a post or comment I've read here and mentioned.

 

We've learned a lot about each other through discussions we've had about the general 'you'. It's almost become a second nature to discuss our relationship issues and 'your' stories and comments have helped pave the way.

[Mr Blunt]

By Katie

He knows how I feel/what I need. His thought on recovery is no conflict or fighting. Positive experiences...

 

I have done what he has wanted and not brought it up. I have not seen either OW since April I think so there has been no talk of it- so no triggers I can't handle by myself. Although I do keep my eye out.

 

The part about him not being able to fix my triggering when I see them? And just accepting this as part and parcel of recovery? This is SO very difficult for me to understand. I would leave in a heartbeat if my AP lived here, so I just can't wrap my head around it. It makes me feel not prioritized.

Katie, you want your husband to sacrifice so that you feel more prioritized, right?

 

 

Here is food for thought. When you reject and replace your spouse in the most painful way possible (Infidelity) you lose something permanently. I know many do not want to hear this statement but I know it is true for me as a BS. Maybe there are couples that can experience what you both have and not have permanent loss but I have never seen that. First, you lose one of the idealisms that are so very powerful in love and that is that your spouse would never reject you and replace you in such a powerful and damaging way and that is a permanent loss. If you had the idealism of 100% trust it is now lost permanently. If you believed that your spouse would die for you, now you know better.

 

 

 

Katie, you and your husband are going to have to settle for less in some area or areas of your relationship because some permanent damage has been done. Frankly, my guess is that you want your husband to prove to you that you are such a high priority to him that he will give up something very important to him (his job and place he lives). He wants you to accept the job and place you live and have positive experiences with no fighting or conflict. Neither of you are willing to give the other what they want.

Your love and his love have not reached the level that you wish for and in my opinion it never will. If you want to get better then you are going to have to accept some realities and adjust for them. You have a lot going for you in your marriage but you are going to have to accept the consequences of your actions and he is going to have accept the consequences of his actions. You may not be able to achieve that great level of love that you desire; a love that your spouse or you will sacrifice (quit job-move----no fighting or conflict) for each other to a great extent. However, you can adjust your desires and expectation so that you are not so troubled. That has a lot to do with AA = attitude and actions!

 

 

 

 

My wife betrayed me with another married man and I did not deserve that at all. I finally counted up the positives and the negatives in what was left and the positives come out ahead so I started the AA (attitude adjustments and actions) I realized that I have lost the level of love that I idealized but with my adjustments I have helped to get many other areas of my life to a much higher level. I now have a good marriage but not a great marriage and have learned to be content in that state. The triggers are almost non-existent and if I do have a trigger it last seconds and I cannot remember any at the moment. I have over 20 years of R and am contented with my life.

 

 

 

I hope that you have enough money to hire all the helps that can get you better. However, if you run out of money I think that the very long term expertise and success of Mr. and Mrs. John Adams, on this forum, is very valuable. Frankly, I hope that you use all the sources that you can because I think there is a lot of hope for you as I think you are very open, honest, and brave.

[xxoo]

My wife betrayed me with another married man and I did not deserve that at all. I finally counted up the positives and the negatives in what was left and the positives come out ahead so I started the AA (attitude adjustments and actions) I realized that I have lost the level of love that I idealized but with my adjustments I have helped to get many other areas of my life to a much higher level. I now have a good marriage but not a great marriage and have learned to be content in that state. The triggers are almost non-existent and if I do have a trigger it last seconds and I cannot remember any at the moment. I have over 20 years of R and am contented with my life.

 

This is what I'm getting at.

 

If there was never any cheating by either of you, what would've made your marriage better? What could you have done to make your marriage better?

 

Do those things. Instead of focusing on right wrongs of the affairs, focus on doing the things that would've made your marriage better before the affairs.

[JohnAdams]

This is what I'm getting at.

 

If there was never any cheating by either of you, what would've made your marriage better? What could you have done to make your marriage better?

 

Do those things. Instead of focusing on right wrongs of the affairs, focus on doing the things that would've made your marriage better before the affairs.

 

You know, Mrs. JA and I are more similar to your situation than many of the other posters. She had an affair and them I had a RA. In reality, it would not matter if I had 10 RA's, in my mind it could have never have equaled her one affair. And to me, and I am projecting on to your husband who I do not know. It was never about revenge, but a response to a complete rejection by my spouse. All you can do after both being the worst spouse imaginable and completely stupid is to try to capture your love again. Oh, what you have both done will never go away. You can never accept what happened. But, you can move on. You can be happy. Running away will not solve the problem. It will always be there. One of the sad things in life is that the dumb decisions made by both of you will always be with you. There is no cure, no magic pill, no miraculous change. You and your hubby by your own choices f..ed up your lives. So, now, you go on knowing that your spouse did not put you in the place you thought you deserved. An affair can never, in my opinion, make a marriage better. Possibly, after time, despite the affair you can become as strong or stronger as before. I think you two can make it, but, unfortunately you may need to lower expectations and hold out hope for more.

[MuddyFootprints]

You also need to learn how to communicate with each other, especially when the conversation gets difficult.

[katielee]

Do you ever discuss random things that come up on this site (or other sites) with your husband? Not necessarily your personal issues, just an interesting post or thread that you've read? Something that's fired you up or made you think?

 

At first it was uncomfortable for me to bring up and for him to discuss, but there were a lot of insightful conversations that resulted from a post or comment I've read here and mentioned.

 

We've learned a lot about each other through discussions we've had about the general 'you'. It's almost become a second nature to discuss our relationship issues and 'your' stories and comments have helped pave the way.

 

No, but when ive had an IC session I discuss that. He does not discuss his IC sessions... He would rather we not discuss anything affair related. I want to discuss mine as I don't want resentment to build. He listens well...

[Mrs. John Adams]

Katielee....I understand that you need to feel he puts you above everything...but i also understand his hesitation to do so.

 

We have a man....whose wife committed adultery and totally caught him off guard.....he was devastated and emasculated....so to build his self esteem...he too had an affair...but instead of building himself back up...it made him feel terrible...so he did it again...(I am not sure if your husband had sexual affairs or not with either woman....I am also unsure if he works with these women on a daily basis or if they just work for the same company.....) Regardless.....you want him to give up his job and his home...because in doing so he puts you first.....(now i suspect...you may not REALLY expect him to do so....you just want to know he would be WILLING to do so)

 

I get all of that....but i want you to look at this through his eyes....he trusted you...and you betrayed him....why then should he give up his home and his job for you? He is older and very successful and established in his job....too old to start over for a wife that betrayed him

 

 

Do you see the dilemma? It is not that he doesn't love you or that he doesn't want to make you feel safe.....it almost has nothing to do with you....it has to do with HIM.

 

You would be willing to move for him....I would do the same....but i could pick up and leave my home and leave my job....John is the main breadwinner in our home....and when you compound that he is closer to retirement.....i understand how much more difficult it would be for him.

 

You know....John CHOSE to drive past the road my AP lived on everyday to work....he could have changed jobs or taken a different route....but he didn't....and everyday going to work and coming back home....he triggered.

By the way.....we live 30 miles away from that road....it is no where near us.

the point of telling you this is because i want you to understand something about triggers....they happen ....no matter where you are....so i am not convinced MOVING will solve anything...unless you move to a different state....and then you will have the problems of missing family etc.

 

In other words....you cannot run from them....you cannot hide from them....but you can get to a place mentally where they no longer devastate you.

 

I am glad your husband knows you post here...and i understand he doesn't want to post....but i hope he will someday want to read what YOU post.

John and i discuss other peoples posts...and we find it very helpful in our own growth. Whether you are discussing your own issues or someone else's...it opens lines of communication.

 

Katielee...don't give up on him. I truly think by the things you have shared...that the man loves you and you love him.....i believe you will continue to grow together. Please look at the positive things he gives you....and cherish them.....stop wishing he would change...because you and i both know....we cannot change our spouse...we can only change ourselves.

 

Please accept him for who he is...and what he is....and know that he may be giving you all he is capable of right now.

 

I sometimes think you are your own worst enemy....stop analyzing and overthinking....and just love him.

[katielee]

Katie, you want your husband to sacrifice so that you feel more prioritized, right?

 

 

Here is food for thought. When you reject and replace your spouse in the most painful way possible (Infidelity) you lose something permanently. I know many do not want to hear this statement but I know it is true for me as a BS. Maybe there are couples that can experience what you both have and not have permanent loss but I have never seen that. First, you lose one of the idealisms that are so very powerful in love and that is that your spouse would never reject you and replace you in such a powerful and damaging way and that is a permanent loss. If you had the idealism of 100% trust it is now lost permanently. If you believed that your spouse would die for you, now you know better.

 

 

 

Katie, you and your husband are going to have to settle for less in some area or areas of your relationship because some permanent damage has been done. Frankly, my guess is that you want your husband to prove to you that you are such a high priority to him that he will give up something very important to him (his job and place he lives). He wants you to accept the job and place you live and have positive experiences with no fighting or conflict. Neither of you are willing to give the other what they want.

Your love and his love have not reached the level that you wish for and in my opinion it never will. If you want to get better then you are going to have to accept some realities and adjust for them. You have a lot going for you in your marriage but you are going to have to accept the consequences of your actions and he is going to have accept the consequences of his actions. You may not be able to achieve that great level of love that you desire; a love that your spouse or you will sacrifice (quit job-move----no fighting or conflict) for each other to a great extent. However, you can adjust your desires and expectation so that you are not so troubled. That has a lot to do with AA = attitude and actions!

 

 

 

 

My wife betrayed me with another married man and I did not deserve that at all. I finally counted up the positives and the negatives in what was left and the positives come out ahead so I started the AA (attitude adjustments and actions) I realized that I have lost the level of love that I idealized but with my adjustments I have helped to get many other areas of my life to a much higher level. I now have a good marriage but not a great marriage and have learned to be content in that state. The triggers are almost non-existent and if I do have a trigger it last seconds and I cannot remember any at the moment. I have over 20 years of R and am contented with my life.

 

 

 

I hope that you have enough money to hire all the helps that can get you better. However, if you run out of money I think that the very long term expertise and success of Mr. and Mrs. John Adams, on this forum, is very valuable. Frankly, I hope that you use all the sources that you can because I think there is a lot of hope for you as I think you are very open, honest, and brave.

 

I have tried to keep in mind all of this. I think seeing a person is a much more difficult trigger than a reminder like a car or a building or a sing on the radio though... . I realize what we did changed each other permanently.

But I AM giving him what he wants. I have been for four years almost. I guess if our way of dealing with this is me having a meltdown when I see them I guess its working. He must be ok with this.

 

Whoever said its amazing were still together is right.

[katielee]

 

If there was never any cheating by either of you, what would've made your marriage better? What could you have done to make your marriage better?

 

Do those things. Instead of focusing on right wrongs of the affairs, focus on doing the things that would've made your marriage better before the affairs.

 

Talking about needs!!!!! Telling each other what we need. From the depth of our souls!!! i told him last month I needed more emotional intimacy. He just can't do it. But we have plenty of good times together....

[xxoo]

I have tried to keep in mind all of this. I think seeing a person is a much more difficult trigger than a reminder like a car or a building or a sing on the radio though... . I realize what we did changed each other permanently.

But I AM giving him what he wants. I have been for four years almost. I guess if our way of dealing with this is me having a meltdown when I see them I guess its working. He must be ok with this.

 

Whoever said its amazing were still together is right.

 

Not really. He's asking for something you're not willing to do: to put it all behind you and move on. You're just as unwilling to do that as he is to move.

 

Remember, seeing people is a trigger for him, too. It reminds him of the joint cheating mess. There is no competition for who has been more hurt, who has sucked it up more. It's way too much sucking it up for all involved. Lots to go around.