last steps in healing

[BetrayedH]

If we're mired, all time will do is bake us or drown us. I don't think you are close to the last steps of healing, nor do I think you've got the right counsellor to help you out of the mud.

 

Please understand that what you are thinking is very relatable to me and I'm not trying to bash you or invalidate your thoughts and feelings.

 

Getting to the core of your anger would be a start toward healing. Being able to communicate it is the beginning of releasing it.

 

You have a lot of work to do yet. And, that's not a bad thing.

 

I also think a big part of the problem (perhaps the core of her anger, as you described it) is that her H really doesn't seem truly remorseful. He had two RAs and felt justified for them. And he's still not in with both feet. If he was, he'd move. Katie feels like she's done her part (and perhaps she has) and he's not doing his.

 

To mention a previous post, if she's selfish for wanting him to move, then he's just as selfish for saying he'd be resentful if he had to move. To Katie's credit, the status quo is that she's the one making the sacrifice and she continues to do so.

 

It's no surprise to me that she's not happy with how this reconciliation is panning out.

[MuddyFootprints]

I don't have any credentials, but wouldn't the observation/perception of lack of remorse instil fear first?

 

My limited understanding is that anger is the rapid response that masks a deeper emotion.

 

The decision to move has been a power struggle here my whole marriage, so I totally get it. Family, career, finances, emotional connections...

 

I've accepted that it isn't going to happen unless we divorce and I want my marriage more than I want to move. I had/have to change my attitude. I'm working on it.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Whoknew30.....I would only add that...Katielee had her affair FIRST....her husbands affairs were revenge affairs....and i think that changes the perspective a bit. Revenge affairs are different....i don't necessarily think they are done as paybacks...but rather as a way to build the self esteem that was stripped away by the first affair....and in Katielee's case....i wonder if her husband was unfulfilled by the first revenge affair and had the second one simply because he was still left damaged....none of us can know of course...

 

I will say this in Katielee's defense....she does work really hard at improving herself...in getting to the bottom of the WHY she had her affair....almost more than anyone else i know of here at LS. She tries....and has tried for many years....but she is still searching....obviously. You cannot fault her for attempting to achieve her goal. I would also say that...we have to be understanding that we do not all handle reconciliation or infidelity in the same way. So what worked for me or what worked for you is not necessarily the right way for her.

 

in the year i have been here....in all the exchanges we have had ......i find she is still stuck in the same place....still searching for an answer that seems to elude her. But i give her kuddos for hanging in there and not giving up.

 

It would be much easier to understand where she is coming from if we had her husbands perspective on all of this...but we don't.....all we have is her perception of his perception.....and that puts all of us at a real disadvantage.

 

Communication between them still seems to be an issue...he doesn't want to talk about it....she does. He doesn't want to move...she does. He doesn't trigger....she does. He says she has done everything right and he is good.....yet she is still struggling.

 

Healing is a never ending process....reconciliation continues forever. Recovery takes a lifetime. The title of this thread kind of says it all....LAST STEPS IN HEALING......sorry...no. Healing may take rest of your life. You do not wake up one day and declare you are healed.....it does not happen that way. So maybe the real problem is the expectation Katielee has.....maybe her goal is unachievable.....so she is disappointed....but her husbands goals have been obtained so he is content. I don't know....it is perplexing to say the least.

 

Muddyfootprints....i agree with you. There are some underlying issues that are still gnawing at her core...anger? insecurity? i don't know what...but i think she has a lot more work ahead of her....but i also see a very determined woman who will keep working on it.

[BetrayedH]

I don't have any credentials, but wouldn't the observation/perception of lack of remorse instil fear first?

 

My limited understanding is that anger is the rapid response that masks a deeper emotion.

 

The decision to move has been a power struggle here my whole marriage, so I totally get it. Family, career, finances, emotional connections...

 

I've accepted that it isn't going to happen unless we divorce and I want my marriage more than I want to move. I had/have to change my attitude. I'm working on it.

 

You are right that anger is typically a secondary emotion (I should acknowledge that I don't have any credentials here either). But in this case I'm not so sure it's secondary. I think that katie is legitimately angry that she has to continue to endure these random situations with the other women. That would get to me and I've been divorced for over 3 years. I haven't seen the OM since I forced a mtg shortly after Dday. If I were reconciling and somewhat routinely ran into multiple "others," I'd just be plain pissed off that my partner prioritized their job over my triggers.

 

I don't know if katie really fears a repeat performance. My gut says the guy is done cheating but that he still doesn't prioritize her the way that he should. I wouldn't want to go thru all of this effort just to be a lesser priority. If I'm going to reconcile, I'd want it to be for a good marriage, at least eventually.

 

I should stress that I don't have a solution here. I'm really just frustrated for her and I think she's justified in feeling that way.

[Whoknew30]

Whoknew30.....I would only add that...Katielee had her affair FIRST....her husbands affairs were revenge affairs....and i think that changes the perspective a bit. Revenge affairs are different....i don't necessarily think they are done as paybacks...but rather as a way to build the self esteem that was stripped away by the first affair....and in Katielee's case....i wonder if her husband was unfulfilled by the first revenge affair and had the second one simply because he was still left damaged....none of us can know of course...

 

I will say this in Katielee's defense....she does work really hard at improving herself...in getting to the bottom of the WHY she had her affair....almost more than anyone else i know of here at LS. She tries....and has tried for many years....but she is still searching....obviously. You cannot fault her for attempting to achieve her goal. I would also say that...we have to be understanding that we do not all handle reconciliation or infidelity in the same way. So what worked for me or what worked for you is not necessarily the right way for her.

 

in the year i have been here....in all the exchanges we have had ......i find she is still stuck in the same place....still searching for an answer that seems to elude her. But i give her kuddos for hanging in there and not giving up.

 

It would be much easier to understand where she is coming from if we had her husbands perspective on all of this...but we don't.....all we have is her perception of his perception.....and that puts all of us at a real disadvantage.

 

Communication between them still seems to be an issue...he doesn't want to talk about it....she does. He doesn't want to move...she does. He doesn't trigger....she does. He says she has done everything right and he is good.....yet she is still struggling.

 

Healing is a never ending process....reconciliation continues forever. Recovery takes a lifetime. The title of this thread kind of says it all....LAST STEPS IN HEALING......sorry...no. Healing may take rest of your life. You do not wake up one day and declare you are healed.....it does not happen that way. So maybe the real problem is the expectation Katielee has.....maybe her goal is unachievable.....so she is disappointed....but her husbands goals have been obtained so he is content. I don't know....it is perplexing to say the least.

 

Muddyfootprints....i agree with you. There are some underlying issues that are still gnawing at her core...anger? insecurity? i don't know what...but i think she has a lot more work ahead of her....but i also see a very determined woman who will keep working on it.

 

I agree to a point (I've read her other posts). I think she thinks bc she feels guilty & he had revenge affairs that now he should do what he needs to do to make her feel more secure. I get that but it seems he only had the affairs to be able to keep his manhood intact so they'd be even & he could stay with her (I've seen so many men do that in my life) so she has to except 100% that she sent her marriage in this direction. She started this & now is mad bc he won't quit his job, that wouldn't have been a issue if she didn't have an A in the first place. My husband & I happen to have A at the exact same time, so we didn't face this exact situation but if I had done it first & he had a revenge A, I'd try to get past it & leave his job alone if that's his happy place. She changed their marriage for good with out asking his permission & now she wants to move when he doesn't, doesn't sound very remorseful to me. You can say how sorry & guilty you are but if you want to take the one thing that makes your spouse happy after you're the one that cheated first & talk about "calling shots" it doesn't sound like a person that is thinking about anyone but herself.

[Whoknew30]

You are right that anger is typically a secondary emotion (I should acknowledge that I don't have any credentials here either). But in this case I'm not so sure it's secondary. I think that katie is legitimately angry that she has to continue to endure these random situations with the other women. That would get to me and I've been divorced for over 3 years. I haven't seen the OM since I forced a mtg shortly after Dday. If I were reconciling and somewhat routinely ran into multiple "others," I'd just be plain pissed off that my partner prioritized their job over my triggers.

 

I don't know if katie really fears a repeat performance. My gut says the guy is done cheating but that he still doesn't prioritize her the way that he should. I wouldn't want to go thru all of this effort just to be a lesser priority. If I'm going to reconcile, I'd want it to be for a good marriage, at least eventually.

 

I should stress that I don't have a solution here. I'm really just frustrated for her and I think she's justified in feeling that way.

 

Why would he prioritize her first when she doesn't? She cheated first, he did it to get her back. I wouldn't quit my job either if I was happy there & that was my escape, not for something that I didn't know was going to truly last. Sounds like there wouldn't have been OW if there hadn't been a OM first.

 

He stayed when most men would not have. him cheating isn't right either but you don't know what you're going to get when you cheat & in her case she got an eye for an eye. She set herself up.

[BetrayedH]

I agree to a point (I've read her other posts). I think she thinks bc she feels guilty & he had revenge affairs that now he should do what he needs to do to make her feel more secure. I get that but it seems he only had the affairs to be able to keep his manhood intact so they'd be even & he could stay with her (I've seen so many men do that in my life) so she has to except 100% that she sent her marriage in this direction. She started this & now is mad bc he won't quit his job, that wouldn't have been a issue if she didn't have an A in the first place. My husband & I happen to have A at the exact same time, so we didn't face this exact situation but if I had done it first & he had a revenge A, I'd try to get past it & leave his job alone if that's his happy place. She changed their marriage for good with out asking his permission & now she wants to move when he doesn't, doesn't sound very remorseful to me. You can say how sorry & guilty you are but if you want to take the one thing that makes your spouse happy after you're the one that cheated first & talk about "calling shots" it doesn't sound like a person that is thinking about anyone but herself.

 

I would agree, only to the extent that I'd say that being madhatters is incredibly complex.

 

I also had a RA but I don't think I would have deprived my wife of what she needed to heal as a BS. If she needed us to move, I think I would have done it. I wouldn't have threatened resentment. I would "get it." And this is well after it was clear that "she started it" and I was just reclaiming my manhood.

 

I'm not trying to be disagreeable with you. I just think it involves far more than the concept that she did it first and set them upon this path. That seems like a free pass forever. At some point, it seems that he needs to either be all-in or not. If it's about being even and he "needed" two affairs to feel even and to heal, then she should also get what she needs to heal.

 

If his job were about a true need to support the family and less about an ego stroke, perhaps I would empathize more. My gut says he gives up the ego stroke and demonstrates real commitment to his marriage, rather than hedging his bets.

[Whoknew30]

I would agree, only to the extent that I'd say that being madhatters is incredibly complex.

 

I also had a RA but I don't think I would have deprived my wife of what she needed to heal as a BS. If she needed us to move, I think I would have done it. I wouldn't have threatened resentment. I would "get it." And this is well after it was clear that "she started it" and I was just reclaiming my manhood.

 

I'm not trying to be disagreeable with you. I just think it involves far more than the concept that she did it first and set them upon this path. That seems like a free pass forever. At some point, it seems that he needs to either be all-in or not. If it's about being even and he "needed" two affairs to feel even and to heal, then she should also get what she needs to heal.

 

If his job were about a true need to support the family and less about an ego stroke, perhaps I would empathize more. My gut says he gives up the ego stroke and demonstrates real commitment to his marriage, rather than hedging his bets.

 

It's a forum it's ok to disagree (.

 

I didn't say it's ok for life but I don't think it's ok to be the one to put your spouse in that postion & then get upset when it all blows up in your face & to start demanding to move & make them leave something they enjoy. If he had cheated first or she had handled their problems properly instead of cheating she would have had a bigger say so right now. It's not all about what she needs alone, it seems theyre a bit older than myself, years of work to just leave bc your WS said so, no it needs to be a compromise. It's tit for tat right now (& that's her version) no one knows his. She's not happy with him, not happy with the therapist that knows her whole situation. She's just not happy & seems to be putting all the blame on him, her having the A shows she wasn't happy before the A. Evidently she hasn't been happy for awhile & it can't be all his fault. She needs soul searching for herself & know 100% where she's coming from before she expects him to make life changing moves for her.

[Mrs. John Adams]

ok...let me ask this question....

 

How many of us who have experienced infidelity....moved or changed jobs....after it occurred?

 

I was in college....my affair was with a professor....I continued in that same college for 6 more months.

 

My husband was in college...his affair was with another student....he continued in that same college as well.

 

Looking back....i should have quit school....I realize now the torture i must have caused my husband. But I KNEW at the time that there was absolutely no contact....so I continued to go. But here is the true issue....MY HUSBAND...did NOT know for sure there was no contact......and this is where hind sight is 50/50. I knew but he did not. So everyday i went to school...he feared i would see the om, or talk to the om....I didn't....but HE did not know for sure. My decision to continue going to school was a bad one...NOW i know and understand the pain i caused my husband by my decision to continue.

 

This is the torture that I believe Katielee endures. Her husband is still in the place where the affairs occurred....He knows he is being faithful.....but Katielee doesn't. She hopes he is, but that little nagging doubt eats at her soul...even though it has been years.

 

So the dilemma is....Does her husband....give up his job to give Katielee the peace of mind that he is no longer in contact with the OW? and is it unrealistic for Katielee to ask him to? As I understand it...please correct me if i have misunderstood.....Mr. Katielee only sees these women at work functions...not on a daily basis.

 

I am not sure why she feels like they should move......how far should they move? 10 miles? 100? 1000?

Edited December 19, 2015 by Mrs. John Adams

[katielee]

Mrs JA- I'm not worried about him starting up with them again. I just don't want to be going about a peaceful day and be slapped in the face with a reminder of what happened - with both of us. If you jumble what we did together they are a reminder of what we BOTH did. I agree healing us forever, working in marriage is forever. Sometime, I think, you need to forget about what happened occasionally to enjoy your new life together.

Who knew- I think everyone here knows what I meant by call the shots. And I don't appreciate be called immature when I'm asking for constructive advice. We could follow the rabbit hole all the way back to he did this, she did that. It has to stop somewhere. I'm sure he was emasculated by my affair. He did things before that I could point to but I'm not. what went on in our marriage before is an entire other issue. Me choosing to have an affair is a separate one. There is NO excuse for it.

I feel exactly what betrayedh has written.

[xxoo]

Or a time machine, as they say.

 

I'm a good three years post divorce and I'm not fully healed. I'm truly not sure I'll ever be the same. It's pretty sad, to be honest. I was a pretty damn good and trusting person before. Now I'm a skeptic most of the time. I think I've been affected permanently. I'm not sure how much "recovery" I should even expect. I think katie is in a similar boat, as are many of us. I don't really know what's to be done about it. It's a travesty.

 

It's important to remember that all of this applies to your husband as well, katielee.

 

I understand you want him to move, and why. I also understand why he most likely never will. His skepticism is the consequence of your affair. Moving and starting over together is a romantic, self-sacrificial act of youth and idealism. He's skeptical. He'd probably never, ever do anything that self-sacrificial for love again after being cheated on.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Thank you for your response Katielee.

 

Can I ask you a question.....do you really believe that "running" from the scene of the crime....changes the crime?

 

What I mean is this....you THINK that moving or his changing jobs will stop the triggers.

 

First of all....triggers are memories....and no matter how far away we get from the hurt...the memory still exists....no matter where we are.

 

You cannot run from them....I agree that we can take ourselves OUT of situations that cause the memories to happen....we can take them from the surface....but they are still there.....and sometimes can be "triggered" by totally unrelated things.

 

I know it has been several years since the affairs.....and i know you are still struggling with the "triggers"....but could it be that you need to learn how to deal with them instead of running from them?

 

Having said that let me give you an example of a struggle we have. Mr. JA has to drive past the road my AP lived on....every time he drives to work. 32 years later....every time he drives past that road he triggers. It used to devastate him...he would go into deep depression. Now...it is a quick thought that he shakes off. It is still there...i suspect it always will be. Through time....he has learned to deal with that trigger instead of letting it consume him.

 

I don't know if this will apply to your situation or not...but i would love to be able to give you hope....that those triggers will diminish...as you both continue to work on your relationship.

[xxoo]

You're also skeptical, of course, because of his affairs. That skepticism will remain with you wherever you go: in this town or other, in this relationship or other.

 

Anyway, I can fully understand why he wouldn't uproot his career at this stage of life for love. I wouldn't in his shoes, either. He's past the point of doing anything for love.

[xxoo]

We could follow the rabbit hole all the way back to he did this, she did that. It has to stop somewhere.

 

How about right here, right now?

 

It might mean divorce. Or it might mean accepting your husband as he is. Or?

 

I don't think your husband would move. But if he did, I suspect that he'd feel you "owe" him. And on and on it goes....

[Mrs. John Adams]

xxoo...I agree with you. Infidelity causes trauma to all of those involved...I think it even changes who we are to some degree....and i know it changes the way we think about things and the way we deal with things.

 

Even those who divorce still have to learn to deal with the devastation the infidelity caused. You don't simply divorce and everything disappears. It affects how you deal with future relationships.

 

There are many people here on Loveshack that divorced....and they are still here learning how to deal with the infidelity that occurred.

 

yeah...it really sucks...infidelity has a lasting affect on all of us.

[Whoknew30]

Mrs JA- I'm not worried about him starting up with them again. I just don't want to be going about a peaceful day and be slapped in the face with a reminder of what happened - with both of us. If you jumble what we did together they are a reminder of what we BOTH did. I agree healing us forever, working in marriage is forever. Sometime, I think, you need to forget about what happened occasionally to enjoy your new life together.

Who knew- I think everyone here knows what I meant by call the shots. And I don't appreciate be called immature when I'm asking for constructive advice. We could follow the rabbit hole all the way back to he did this, she did that. It has to stop somewhere. I'm sure he was emasculated by my affair. He did things before that I could point to but I'm not. what went on in our marriage before is an entire other issue. Me choosing to have an affair is a separate one. There is NO excuse for it.

I feel exactly what betrayedh has written.

 

Sometimes being called immature is part of constructive criticism. Just bc you don't want to hear it doesn't mean that it's not constructive. Often things that bother us when asking for advice are the things we don't want to admit.

[Whoknew30]

Thank you for your response Katielee.

 

Can I ask you a question.....do you really believe that "running" from the scene of the crime....changes the crime?

 

What I mean is this....you THINK that moving or his changing jobs will stop the triggers.

 

First of all....triggers are memories....and no matter how far away we get from the hurt...the memory still exists....no matter where we are.

 

You cannot run from them....I agree that we can take ourselves OUT of situations that cause the memories to happen....we can take them from the surface....but they are still there.....and sometimes can be "triggered" by totally unrelated things.

 

I know it has been several years since the affairs.....and i know you are still struggling with the "triggers"....but could it be that you need to learn how to deal with them instead of running from them?

 

Having said that let me give you an example of a struggle we have. Mr. JA has to drive past the road my AP lived on....every time he drives to work. 32 years later....every time he drives past that road he triggers. It used to devastate him...he would go into deep depression. Now...it is a quick thought that he shakes off. It is still there...i suspect it always will be. Through time....he has learned to deal with that trigger instead of letting it consume him.

 

I don't know if this will apply to your situation or not...but i would love to be able to give you hope....that those triggers will diminish...as you both continue to work on your relationship.

 

 

After my husband & I A's, I don't think moving ever came up & the OW lived way closer to us & I saw her several times after Dday. Nothing would happen when I saw her bc deep down I knew he screwed up & "she" wasn't the problem. Though one time (while we were in therapy) I bursted out crying in the car(it all was getting to me &'I was pregnant) after a session & my husband looked at me & said "I know you have forgiven me & you know I have forgiven you, YOU have to forgive yourself & until you do, nothing will change" it was the smartest thing he's ever said & he was right. Until you forgive yourself, no matter what your spouse does, you'll just be stuck.

 

No one can run from themselves& their heart or brain. So until you internally ok, moving or running is never going to make a difference, in any situation.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Who knew...I agree... You cannot run from it.....and until you deal with the true issues at hand.....you can't move on.

 

Katielee is trying.....that's why she is here.

 

It takes some of us longer than others to process an affair...sometimes we take two steps forward and one back.....and sometimes we either become accepting of the situation...or we give up.....

 

In our case....my dear husband hung in there with me....hoping I would eventually give him what he needed....complete remorse. It took me thirty years....but I got there.

 

There are many people here on loveshack...who know that their wayward will never be able to give them what they need.....but they resolve themselves to that fact....and continue in the relationship....

I suppose they hold on to hope.....my husband did...he did not give up on me. We had a good marriage despite my shortcomings......but he still hoped.

 

Katielee loves her husband and she still has hope...that he will give her all that she needs. Her struggle is real....she knows she still has work to do....that's why she is here.

 

I don't know if she will ever get what she is looking for....but meanwhile....she is in a loving relationship....and she says she is happy. From my own experience...I understand. Mr JA and I were happy.......we got a bonus. Katielee wants the bonus...

[katielee]

 

He's past the point of doing anything for love.

 

For the same reasons, should I be as well?

[cja]

The dialectics of this thread are in some ways better than raskolnikov and razhumikhin's dialogue on crime and punishment. I may be reading too much into this and the other many threads I've looked through, but a running theme appears to be "you brought this on yourself." "You set it in motion." And there does seem to be an intractable passé. I would say katielee appears to have grown a hard shell, but she receives very little (at least from my perspective) compassion. That scarlet letter casts a wide shadow. Not saying I have anything to offer. And not saying that the advice given is in any way not good. Actually quite the contrary, lots of wise words of advice written. And I'm the last person that could offer any valuable wisdom on anything. But I do have some empathy for the OP and hope you find your peace.

[dichotomy]

Who knew...I agree... You cannot run from it.....and until you deal with the true issues at hand.....you can't move on.

 

Katielee is trying.....that's why she is here.

 

It takes some of us longer than others to process an affair...sometimes we take two steps forward and one back.....and sometimes we either become accepting of the situation...or we give up.....

 

In our case....my dear husband hung in there with me....hoping I would eventually give him what he needed....complete remorse. It took me thirty years....but I got there.

 

There are many people here on loveshack...who know that their wayward will never be able to give them what they need.....but they resolve themselves to that fact....and continue in the relationship....

I suppose they hold on to hope.....my husband did...he did not give up on me. We had a good marriage despite my shortcomings......but he still hoped.

 

Katielee loves her husband and she still has hope...that he will give her all that she needs. Her struggle is real....she knows she still has work to do....that's why she is here.

 

I don't know if she will ever get what she is looking for....but meanwhile....she is in a loving relationship....and she says she is happy. From my own experience...I understand. Mr JA and I were happy.......we got a bonus. Katielee wants the bonus...

 

 

Wow these statements really hit close to home. Thank you for sharing.

[katielee]

No idea what the "true issue" is

[xxoo]

For the same reasons, should I be as well?

 

It's not "should". You each can do what you can do.

 

It's about acceptance. Accepting what he can do. Accepting what you can do. Is it enough? Only you can decide.

[merrmeade]

Grrrr. Just grrrr. Sorry (but not really) but all these questions about why can't you just, y'know, get over those triggers - isn't all in your head - are coming from people who freakin' don't trigger from having been betrayed! (as far as I can tell)

Do you tell an Iraqi vet oh, y'know, they're just triggers? As in, "in your head"?

 

No, it's not in her control for pete's sake. She doesn't have to explain or apologize about her triggers or anybody else who's experienced PTSD. It's what it is.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I think we all understand triggers who have experienced infidelity....whether we are a bs or a WS or both...

 

Triggers are certainly real...and I don't think they ever go away....ever

But I do think we can get to a place where they only sting for a second as opposed to crippling us for days.

 

Katielees trigger are real...and I believe as she progresses in her healing...they will occur less and will become a sting.

 

I used to get frustrated with John....and say why can't you just stop thinking about it? And then I came to realize he couldn't because deep inside of him..he had fear that I did not realize how much pain I had caused him.....and I might hurt him again. Honestly...once he knew that I "knew"... His triggers were much better.

 

I cannot begin to say why katielee triggers so badly....but I do wonder if it is because she is still waiting for something from her husband to assure her she does not have to be afraid.