Dealing with wife's affair.

January 31, 2016

By Mrs John Adams
and honestly...I do not hear NS demanding anything from her...except to help him feel safe.

BINGO!!!!!

Thank you MJA for your statement as it is very important fact.

NS for some reasons avoids my questions even though those questions are based on many of the posters. MJA’s statement above relates to one of my questions that NS avoided. That question is reprinted below:

Do you know that your actions so far are not enough to stop the severe damage that is occurring to your self-esteem?

NS just recently has taken a small step in that he told her that he would fight in court for his children and that is when he got a strong reaction and she became ballistic again. That should tell NS that moving towards real actions can start to jolt her out of her cocoon. However, talk alone may not be enough as NS has done a ton of talking and is still in very bad shape.

NS, here is what I did in terms of actions:

I divorced my wife and won more than 50% of the custody of our children.

I made her tell the children about her betrayal to the whole family and that betray included hurting the children. That made her an abuser of innocent children and she had to face that reality.

I stopped trying to help her by believing in her and trying to help her

I was willing to let her go and start my new life without her

I threw the car keys at her face (missed) and told her to get out of the house.

She came back to me a broken woman and willing to do anything I asked.

I told her that she would have to prove her talk for years before I would totally accept her back

She proved to me for over 4 years as her words were backed up by her ACTIONS!

I remarried my wife after four years and we have had a successful R and family life for over 20 years

That is what worked for me and I know that there are other ways that can work for others. John Adams and MJA did not have the same experience that I did but we both have a successful R. However, as MJA has stated “you have not demanded anything for her” I think that your lack of strong actions have allowed her negative position to get worse.

I am telling you a little of my story in hopes that you and your wife can either get into real R or that you prepare yourself for a good life without her. In either case you are going to have to take some strong actions that you have avoided so far.

I do believe that it is possible that your wife can make the changes needed to R but her fear and self-protection will need a strong jolt to get her to move forward. MJA knows exactly what your wife needs to do as she is a proven winner for many years. However, if your wife is not going to take her advice or anyone else’s advice then she will keep the marriage in deep trouble.

If you are going to get out of your emotional hell before it destroys your life you are going to have to take some stronger actions for either R or D.

February 1, 2016

I was thinking of doing that, but am not sure if the MC would bill me for the time to read it. If she wants to get to the root of the issues, shouldn't she know how to ask the right questions to extract the information she needs to be able to help us?

She has asked us questions, so I'm sure she has made attempts at assessment of our state, our personalities, the past, what we have tried, etc.
The question is has she been able to extract the information she needs?
I wonder if the MC has read any books on infidelity or specifically, "How to help your spouse heal from your affair"?

Sometimes I feel that actual people who have been through recovery from an affair may know much more than what an MC may know, because actual people have "felt" the emotions and "felt" the solutions.

If you're looking for the therapist to gather information and then come to you with a comprehensive solution set, I think you're bound for disappointment. Some will propose solutions or give opinions. Most don't. Many make a point not to do that at all. Many will simply consider it their role to steer the conversation from time to time by asking each of you probing questions. Some will give homework to that effect. Many are simply providing the two of you a "safe" environment to share with each other; people have a tendency to avoid throwing tantrums and dishes when a neutral third party is present. But very rarely should you expect to hear, "Ok, here's what I think you two should do."

For what it's worth, I think laying down your expectations in order to avoid an immediate filing for divorce is appropriate. It's fair to say that this isn't working for you and your patience for her approach is exhausted.

Otherwise, I think you'd better get at least a free consultation with an attorney and soon. If nothing else, you need to know what amount you need to gather for a retainer. If your wife wants full custody and for you to only have visitation, you'd better expect for her to fight for exactly what. Like you, I wanted 50/50 and wouldn't settle for less. My wife's attorney loaded me up with demands for financial disclosures (7 years worth - good luck getting that from your bank). It took 10 months and a good six hours into our mediation day before she finally accepted that I was not settling for so much as 5 minutes short of 50/50 and that I was fully prepared to go to court over it (where her affair would have become a matter of public record). Then we spent about 3 hours hammering out the rest of the language. Pain in the arse. For some bizarre reason, my wife felt an extra degree of shame by not getting greater than 50/50 (like the mother is automatically entitled to be the primary parent and should be ashamed if she isn't). Your wife may be similar. So far, our wives sound remarkably similar. Just saying, be prepared for a fight, regardless of how amiable she may have said she would be during a divorce. Mine said she would fully own her affair if it ever came to that. Yeah, hogwash.

February 1, 2016

What if I'm angry 80% of the time? Would that be OK for her to accept? Gradually, my hope is to bring that anger down to 70, 60, 50, 40, 30%, but that would also depend on her efforts, wouldn't it?

60+ pages and you are continually going back to "her efforts" as a baseline. What efforts has she shown the past 6 months? Why would she all of a sudden show any more effort? The only time she responded was when you broached the subject of custody.

During my R I was angry for 3 years, and not once did my WW isolate herself. She accepted that I was angry. She knew exactly why I was angry. My WW dealing with my anger was part of her penance for screwing another guy, her ongoing deception, and emasculating me. She walked on eggshells for a very long time because I could trigger at any moment. To my wife's credit, she hung in there and faced everything head-on. She did not move into another bedroom, or hide her passwords from me. She was willing to do the heavy lifting. She was willing to do the heavy lifting because she was grateful that she even had a second chance. She knew that she did not deserve a second chance at our marriage.

I'm starting to have more sympathy for your wife. This thread is exhausting. I wonder if your wife is exhausted from dealing with the same circular conversation. You can go back and read the first 4 pages of this thread and it is the same as the last 4 pages. The same questions with the same responses and the same inaction.

Please answer Mr Blunts questions. That is the crux of your current situation.

February 1, 2016

NS...you need to stop worrying about your wife's reactions and focus on protecting yourself.

She only started to show remorse and care about your feelings after some desperate measures. This is not a good sign.

February 1, 2016

BINGO!!!!!

Thank you MJA for your statement as it is very important fact.

NS for some reasons avoids my questions even though those questions are based on many of the posters. MJA’s statement above relates to one of my questions that NS avoided. That question is reprinted below:

NS just recently has taken a small step in that he told her that he would fight in court for his children and that is when he got a strong reaction and she became ballistic again. That should tell NS that moving towards real actions can start to jolt her out of her cocoon. However, talk alone may not be enough as NS has done a ton of talking and is still in very bad shape.

NS, here is what I did in terms of actions:

I divorced my wife and won more than 50% of the custody of our children.

I made her tell the children about her betrayal to the whole family and that betray included hurting the children. That made her an abuser of innocent children and she had to face that reality.

I stopped trying to help her by believing in her and trying to help her

I was willing to let her go and start my new life without her

I threw the car keys at her face (missed) and told her to get out of the house.

She came back to me a broken woman and willing to do anything I asked.

I told her that she would have to prove her talk for years before I would totally accept her back

She proved to me for over 4 years as her words were backed up by her ACTIONS!

I remarried my wife after four years and we have had a successful R and family life for over 20 years

That is what worked for me and I know that there are other ways that can work for others. John Adams and MJA did not have the same experience that I did but we both have a successful R. However, as MJA has stated “you have not demanded anything for her” I think that your lack of strong actions have allowed her negative position to get worse.

I am telling you a little of my story in hopes that you and your wife can either get into real R or that you prepare yourself for a good life without her. In either case you are going to have to take some strong actions that you have avoided so far.

I do believe that it is possible that your wife can make the changes needed to R but her fear and self-protection will need a strong jolt to get her to move forward. MJA knows exactly what your wife needs to do as she is a proven winner for many years. However, if your wife is not going to take her advice or anyone else’s advice then she will keep the marriage in deep trouble.

If you are going to get out of your emotional hell before it destroys your life you are going to have to take some stronger actions for either R or D.

Your refusal to accept any nonsense from your WW made complete sense and I'm glad that the two of you reconciled.

Your wife's cheating was reprehensible but that doesn't mean that you had the right to throw an object at her face. I hope that was just a one time mistake and not a pattern.

I wish that NS would actually take heed of the posts here but he seems determined to continue his circular actions. I just don't understand the point of asking for advice if the asker is not going to listen to any of it.

February 1, 2016

I was thinking of doing that, but am not sure if the MC would bill me for the time to read it. If she wants to get to the root of the issues, shouldn't she know how to ask the right questions to extract the information she needs to be able to help us?

She has asked us questions, so I'm sure she has made attempts at assessment of our state, our personalities, the past, what we have tried, etc.
The question is has she been able to extract the information she needs?
I wonder if the MC has read any books on infidelity or specifically, "How to help your spouse heal from your affair"?

Sometimes I feel that actual people who have been through recovery from an affair may know much more than what an MC may know, because actual people have "felt" the emotions and "felt" the solutions.

Which is exactly why you should give her this. You show MUCH more insight into the real relationship on threads like this than you do in MC when you're both in there and only have an hour; this thread condenses MONTHS of your life in a 30-minute read. This is your marriage you're trying to save. Isn't it worth an additional frealking $100 to pay your MC to read this? Come on.

February 1, 2016

What is the alternative way in which I can handle my anger? Tell her calmly that "I'm angry because of .... reason?", or that I'm generally angry because the thoughts of her affair are bothering me again?
If that is the way to handle it, I can try..... Or I can ask HER how she would prefer that I handle my anger. Or ask her in the presence of the MC? What if I'm angry 80% of the time? Would that be OK for her to accept? Gradually, my hope is to bring that anger down to 70, 60, 50, 40, 30%, but that would also depend on her efforts, wouldn't it?

You need to be an assertive communicator.

But until you stop allowing the fear of losing your wife dictate your (in)actions and communication, you cannot be assertive. It's an irrational fear because you cannot control her emotions and choices regardless of whether or not she cheated.

Assertive communicators do not measure their words because they're concerned about the effects the communication may have on the person receiving the message. Nor are they disrespectful, aggressive, unreasonable, and lack empathy.

IMO, you do not communicate honestly (subdue your emotions) with your wife or take any actions because you're afraid of her reaction. So you try to ignore or suppress your negative feelings, and your communications may appear passive-aggressive because they're not an honest expression of your feelings.

You cannot let fear guide you whether it is reconciliation, divorce, or anything in life.

Be assertive. No fear. Stand up for you. The time is now. Act.

Edited February 1, 2016 by OneLov

February 1, 2016

I have tried to do it without those simple things for 6 months, since my wife needed her "space", but it made matters worse for me. Now that she has had her "space" and moved back into the bedroom since the last 2 weeks or so, ... I am giving her the key to the lock of what I need to be able to heal, yet she is refusing to do what is needed.

NS,

Please read the below pasted column:

What Does a Woman Mean When She Says 'I Need Space?'

What Does a Woman Mean When She Says 'I Need Space?'

Relevant to your situation:

"Bottom line: Any woman (just like any man) wants to be loved. But people want to be loved by a person they can love. And you can't love somebody who's too often more about you than they are about themselves. Because that tells you that they don't have a life and that they want you to make their life for them -- and that sucks. When you're with someone like that, what you pretty soon realize is that you're not really in a relationship at all. All that's really happened is that you've managed to adopt a gargantuan needy child.

What you want from someone you love is for them to not just love, but respect you. And in fact, no one can really love you if they don't respect you. And the only way anyone -- any woman in whom you're interested, I mean -- will ever respect you is if they understand that in some real and enduring sense you don't need them. That you want them, yes. That you choose them, yes. But that you need them? No. They will flee from that. For anyone who's worth having, needy is the ultimate in anti-aphrodisiacs."

I know this seems unfair NS, but I do not know what else to tell you. You seem to want to continue this relationship regardless of her participation in it. Your pleading to help fix you has gone unanswered. I think it is absolute folly to continue to sit and wait for her to "see the light"; she does not even want to get out of bed to open the blinds.

The reality we're facing now is that if you're unwilling to leave and she is unwilling to change, then you must change. Sucks. But status quo cannot continue.

I know in most post-affair situations this advice would seem counter-intuitive and very dysfunctional -- because it is.

You know why they say "women (and men) love a******* ?"

Because a******* put themselves and their needs first. They take care of themselves. They do not look to the other person and say, "take care of me."

I'm being facetious but there is some science to attraction. And it unequivocally states that if you want someone to pursue you, you must first run the other way.

Pay attention to you. Stop giving so much to her.

February 1, 2016

NS,

I think you can't do the things everyone is insisting on in terms of attitude, feeling and behavior because you cannot handling losing her. All of those no-nonsense, take-it-or-leave-it approaches depend on your conviction that being with her under these conditions will be (is) worse than letting her go. I don't think you believe that. I think that losing her at any cost is what's too dear.

And whether it's losing her or the fantasy (the ideal wife and marriage, possibility of true love and devotion, her imaginary remorse and your daydreams of her realizing her folly and blindness and finally embracing your value and importance to her while begging forgiveness.

I think she's shown you that it's simply not going to happen. Not now. Not next month. Not ever. She's not willing to 'grovel' as she probably sees it. On the contrary, she's shown that she's only looking out for number one.

I know this because I also had to let go expectations. Our situation was not exactly the same (they never are) but close enough. I had to accept that he will NEVER get it and decide if that was okay. Call it 'settling' because it is. It's accepting less than perfect. But how many get perfect.

February 1, 2016

BINGO!!!!!

Thank you MJA for your statement as it is very important fact.

NS for some reasons avoids my questions even though those questions are based on many of the posters. MJA’s statement above relates to one of my questions that NS avoided. That question is reprinted below:

NS just recently has taken a small step in that he told her that he would fight in court for his children and that is when he got a strong reaction and she became ballistic again. That should tell NS that moving towards real actions can start to jolt her out of her cocoon. However, talk alone may not be enough as NS has done a ton of talking and is still in very bad shape.

NS, here is what I did in terms of actions:

I divorced my wife and won more than 50% of the custody of our children.

I made her tell the children about her betrayal to the whole family and that betray included hurting the children. That made her an abuser of innocent children and she had to face that reality.

I stopped trying to help her by believing in her and trying to help her

I was willing to let her go and start my new life without her

I threw the car keys at her face (missed) and told her to get out of the house.

She came back to me a broken woman and willing to do anything I asked.

I told her that she would have to prove her talk for years before I would totally accept her back

She proved to me for over 4 years as her words were backed up by her ACTIONS!

I remarried my wife after four years and we have had a successful R and family life for over 20 years

That is what worked for me and I know that there are other ways that can work for others. John Adams and MJA did not have the same experience that I did but we both have a successful R. However, as MJA has stated “you have not demanded anything for her” I think that your lack of strong actions have allowed her negative position to get worse.

I am telling you a little of my story in hopes that you and your wife can either get into real R or that you prepare yourself for a good life without her. In either case you are going to have to take some strong actions that you have avoided so far.

I do believe that it is possible that your wife can make the changes needed to R but her fear and self-protection will need a strong jolt to get her to move forward. MJA knows exactly what your wife needs to do as she is a proven winner for many years. However, if your wife is not going to take her advice or anyone else’s advice then she will keep the marriage in deep trouble.

If you are going to get out of your emotional hell before it destroys your life you are going to have to take some stronger actions for either R or D.

Mr. Blunt,

I want to hear more, so please do tell me more.

I will also answer the question you asked me:

Quote: Do you know that your actions so far are not enough to stop the severe damage that is occurring to your self-esteem?

YES. I felt it severely this morning. I felt like a piece of sh*t, like a f*ck*ng beggar. Like a nobody. My self esteem is the worst it has ever been in 44 years of my life, since my birth.

YES. YES. YES. I KNOW that my actions so far are NOT enough to stop the severe damage that has already happened and continues to happen to my self esteem. I finally see it...... I saw it very clearly this morning. This is what happened last night and this morning:

My wife moved out of the bedroom again last night (probably because I asked if she would, even though later she asked me if I really wanted her to move out even IF she started to give me what I really needed... I told her if she gave me what I really needed then I did not want her to move out). When I came home late in the night (at 2 am.) from talking to a friend about understanding the divorce process, she was not in our bed. With great difficulty, I consoled myself and literally patted myself to go to sleep, like one would pat a freaking child to sleep. I had a night full of terrible nightmares (as usual). I woke up in cold sweat as usual, and (skipping the details of my mess), in my painful awakeness, heard my wife getting herself and the children ready and leaving (without so much as even her looking into my bedroom or checking on me). I heard her just tell my son not to yell, as I was asleep (like she knew I was asleep, without even looking into the room)

I realized that I felt like sh*t, like an abandoned caracas. I felt DEAD and was trying to think of ways in which I could end my life painlessly. I reached out to my friend who told me NOT TO. My friend told me that he cares for me, just as others did. I was about to call the national crisis hotline, but after speaking to my friend, I felt better, so I got dressed and got to work.

My point is: My self esteem is completely depleted. I'm going to be ON STRICT 180 from today, because my life or death literally depends on it.

Or ANYTHING else in which I can help myself, because my wife is a %*$# who is incapable of helping me.

Mr. Blunt, ask me more questions. I will answer them. I need your help and your advice. Not everything you did is what I'm capable of doing. I would have a hard time purposefully exposing my wife to our kids and I'm not sure how healthy that really is, for the kids either, but I would like to hear more about what you did, because some of those things may work for me to help myself.

Quoting you, "going to have to take some stronger actions for either R or D.",

What did you have in mind for stronger actions for "R"? 180? Something else? I'm more inclined to take stronger actions for R than stronger actions for D. Could you elaborate? (Other than MC, IC, 180, and living a separate life in my bedroom and not letting her back into the bedroom until she gives me "everything", 100% of what I need)

February 1, 2016

NS,
I think you can't do the things everyone is insisting on in terms of attitude, feeling and behavior because you cannot handling losing her. All of those no-nonsense, take-it-or-leave-it approaches depend on your conviction that being with her under these conditions will be (is) worse than letting her go. I don't think you believe that. I think that losing her at any cost is what's too dear.

And whether it's losing her or the fantasy (the ideal wife and marriage, possibility of true love and devotion, her imaginary remorse and your daydreams of her realizing her folly and blindness and finally embracing your value and importance to her while begging forgiveness.

I think she's shown you that it's simply not going to happen. Not now. Not next month. Not ever. She's not willing to 'grovel' as she probably sees it. On the contrary, she's shown that she's only looking out for number one.

I know this because I also had to let go expectations. Our situation was not exactly the same (they never are) but close enough. I had to accept that he will NEVER get it and decide if that was okay. Call it 'settling' because it is. It's accepting less than perfect. But how many get perfect.

merrmeade,

I suspect you are right. I may not be willing or have the guts to actually go ahead with a divorce, even though I may even file.

If that becomes the situation, I need to think of a contingency plan on how to deal with my own pain and recovery, how to seek someone (and this is shaky ground, but who the f*ck cares anymore) who can hold me in her arms, and comfort my shaking body while giving me words of comfort all along. I know I can keep a strict boundary to get just that, but that is what I know I WILL need. Then, what happens just happens with her and I'm not going to be emotionally involved with her, and just be involved with the kids.

February 1, 2016

How often are you going to therapy?

February 1, 2016

merrmeade,
I suspect you are right. I may not be willing or have the guts to actually go ahead with a divorce, even though I may even file.
If that becomes the situation, I need to think of a contingency plan on how to deal with my own pain and recovery, how to seek someone (and this is shaky ground, but who the f*ck cares anymore) who can hold me in her arms, and comfort my shaking body while giving me words of comfort all along. I know I can keep a strict boundary to get just that, but that is what I know I WILL need. Then, what happens just happens with her and I'm not going to be emotionally involved with her, and just be involved with the kids.

If you stick to the hard 180 you might be surprised at how quickly you begin to detach from her. It gives you a chance to get accustomed to taking care of yourself without her. The time away from her - emotionally and/or physically - gives you a better perspective of the reality of the state of your marriage. The 180 is for your healing - not hers or the marriage.

February 2, 2016

How often are you going to therapy?

For MC, we are going every week (except the previous week, for which there was no appointment available)

For IC, I will also be going every week.

February 2, 2016

In my personal healing, I have recognized a co-dependence pattern I have. That is a pattern of feeling like a helpless and desperately crying child, needing a sort of a motherly love.

I'm not sure if this is a normal experience for betrayed husbands, but I have a severe need for this type of a motherly love under the circumstances of my wife's affair.

I will bring this up during my IC session, but if its normal to feel this need under the trauma I'm experiencing, then I don't want to suppress it, but instead find that type of a motherly love support that I need.

Have any betrayed husbands experienced this? Can you comment?

February 2, 2016

IDK, but I'm not feeling like having a motherly love is really all that good for you. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

February 2, 2016

It has been a long time for me since I experienced infidelity so my memory may be a bit clouded. I do not remember a need for motherly love.

No offense, but you appear trapped in what I call the pathetic stage. I remember being in that stage myself. A feeling of total hopelessness. Your confidence totally flushed. Your life as you knew it over. A feeling that your life is ruined. A strong feeling that you are less of a man. The only thing that took my mind off of infidelity was the thought of suicide. This paints a pretty bleak picture.

So, how do you pull yourself out of this stage? I became self destructive. After not leaving on my own, I was almost wishing my wife would kick me out. I had a revenge affair and confessed. Why, because I was very broken. As with all affairs, it was totally on me and I did not care at the time if she kicked me out. So, I went from low to lower. Instead of taking the high road and maintaining my principles, I sunk to a new low.

I know I am not painting a pretty picture. But, I do not want you to stay in your current stage. I can tell from your writings, you are a man of high principle. Keep your head up and know that you can still have a good life. You do not need to take drastic action and will regret it if you do.

I must say my wife tried and kept trying. This is where I see a major gap between us. Your wife is not putting in the effort you need. It really is time to man up and do what is best for you. I know you have thought the best thing is to find a way to reconcile with your wife. She is not cooperating. It may be time to move on and start a new life. You still have plenty of time to have a rewarding life without her.

February 2, 2016

how to seek someone (and this is shaky ground, but who the f*ck cares anymore) who can hold me in her arms, and comfort my shaking body while giving me words of comfort all along.

For the sake of any future relationship you might have...you need to MAN UP starting from now.

An important part of being a mentally strong human being is the ability to deal with pain by yourself. You don't need to quiver in somebody else's arms. Move on with ur head held high.

February 2, 2016

I haven't read your entire thread, NaivelySensitive, but I have read a bit of your story, what has happened, and what you are going through. I identify very strongly with your descriptions of how you feel and what is happening to you. I had the same experience when I was in my 20s (though I was not married; I was engaged). The pain was so excrutiating, I could barely keep myself from crying 24/7. There were a few days there where the ONLY thing that helped me continue to breathe was the picture of my mother's face in my mind. Everything I had believed, and believed in, and my life, were shattered. I became no one; I dropped out of life completely. I could not function, could not shower, eat, take care of myself. I spent days and days TALKING to him, trying to make sense of something I just could not make sense of, crying, wishing, getting angry, hurting, hurting, hurting, reacting, day after day. It did not help. Nothing he did or said could have ever made any of it better or even tolerable.

But there were three things that occurred at that time that did help. First, I moved out. I moved in with my brother and his wife just temporarily. I don't recall how long I was there but I do recall being there and being in agony for quite some time. But being away from him, and away from "our" home, meant I would not be faced with continual reminders. It gave me time to collect myself, gain some perspective, and then focus on ME.

Second, I went to see a psychiatrist (in addition to IC). This psychiatrist explained to me what had occurred physiologically in my brain that caused me to become the mess I had become (my words, not the doctor's). He also asked me to understand that I had a dependent personality, and that I could work on that. He gave me an anti-depressant which I took for about 6 months, to help me get through the difficulties. It worked.

Lastly, I was told I needed to go to Al-Anon. I asked no questions, I did not argue; I just went. It literally saved my life.

The severe trauma that I experienced all those years ago changed me at my core. I have never been the same since. Whereas I was previously carefree, devil-may-care, and joyous in relationships, I turned suspicious, guarded, even paranoid. I realized I had NO ability to judge or discern people's character and, while I am completely monogamous, I had no way of telling whether anyone else was or not.

What gave me strength in those days was talking to people who cared and understood what I was going through. I found those people at Al-Anon. I learned ways of coping and new ways of understanding myself by simply going to meetings and listening to others talk, and sharing with them what I was going through. If you are or have ever in the past been affected by someone else's drinking, you may consider checking out a meeting.

I'm not a therapist but I believe there are two things you would benefit from learning and practicing. They are inhibition and detaching with love. You can Google these and read about them if you want. The basics are: In inhibition, you inhibit your natural responses when things start to get messy. You practice non-reaction. You teach yourself to say nothing at those moments when you really want to explode. You learn to take deep breaths and just listen. Detaching is the step after you have mastered inhibition. It is best if you read about it or go to a local Al-Anon meeting to learn it. Or you could ask your IC. A really good book to read is Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. You can pick it up at your local library or on Amazon for a penny plus shipping.

I saw that you are committed to doing the 180. That is good. It will help you with detachment. When it gets hard, fake it till you make it. It's all practice. You have the rules now, but remember you are going to fall down. But you just keep trying. Sometimes after falling you'll have to crawl before you can get back up. The idea is to just keep going. Never, EVER give up.

Take care. You're going to be okay. I can already tell.

February 2, 2016

If I could 'like' Mr Adams post a million times...for expressing so many of my feelings'...I would.

O.K. Incredibly pathetic confessions of a bs....

I'm a chronic pain patient as I've said. I have some VERY strong medications. I've researched/calculated how many pills it will take to painlessly kill myself. I'm VERY aware of the day EVERY month that I no longer have (complete certainty) enough pills to do the job. I feel 'sad' until I collect my refills.

I would/could never actually do it because my brother did & I know the emotional carnage it causes everyone....I've sunk so low that I've resented my brother for being the one who got to escape.

Dealing with my health I've practiced meditation, visualization, self soothing. I find 'mantras' going through my head. They used to be things like "the pain doesn't own me" or "I can do this! It's just my body! It's just nerve messages!". I went through a couple of months where the mantra "I want my Mum! I NEED my Mum!" Kept jumping into my mind & I'd curl & sob like a baby.

Is it the "Pathetic Stage"? Is it a survival instinct?

I truly believe that my health has been effected in a very real way by the insane stress I've endured.

My H has just walked past & lent-in, kissed me sweetly but with that twinkle in his eye. He then made a silly joke that only we would get & went into the kitchen to make me a cup of tea.

I feel disrespectful sharing our secrets even anonymously. I strongly believed & lived by the rule that you NEVER gossip or disrespect your husband to others. I could write an essay on why I believe this to be correct!

Anyway....there is a point to this long & honest post.

I get-it. I truly do! You're tiring yourself in knots. You know where you want your life to be. It should be doable but you don't honestly know how to get there. You want your W to hold you like a baby & nurture you. You want to push her hand away because you can't stand her touch. You want her to NEED you desperately sexually. You can't peck her on the cheek when she gives you doe eyes.

You are consumed by your emotions & your complete, instinctive rite to express your feelings that you don't see the impossible situation it puts your wife in.

I don't know what the answer is but it's not this.

Maybe I am rugsweeping. My hang-up is that I'm taking all the pain & I don't think he truly gets-it.

I think the answer is somewhere in the middle of what we're doing. In the end, after all the trickle truth etc I had 3 DAYS of intense fighting, crying, talking, sex, crying etc. You had 3 months!

My H was accusing me of "Picking the scab to make sure it keeps bleeding & hurting" him after 3 DAYS!! Pathetic.

3 MONTHS of let's be honest, degrading herself.....

Oh this is so complicated. I truly feel for you but you've got to do something! Choose something! You're trying the patience of a saint. I go from feeling for your W too wanting you to divorce her!

I find it strange that you never raised the subject of your children....for most men in your situation kids are posted about a lot.

The whole sex thing at the start worried me.

You want to be told what to do but you don't want to do it so I don't know what you want.

Could you tell your W in specific terms what you want from her at this point? Not how you want her to make you feel but HOW she does that? Simple 1, 2, 3, "I want you to DO THIS!"... I think that could tell you something....

I've rambled. I'm frustrated. I don't know!

February 2, 2016

It has been a long time for me since I experienced infidelity so my memory may be a bit clouded. I do not remember a need for motherly love.

No offense, but you appear trapped in what I call the pathetic stage. I remember being in that stage myself. A feeling of total hopelessness. Your confidence totally flushed. Your life as you knew it over. A feeling that your life is ruined. A strong feeling that you are less of a man. The only thing that took my mind off of infidelity was the thought of suicide. This paints a pretty bleak picture.

So, how do you pull yourself out of this stage? I became self destructive. After not leaving on my own, I was almost wishing my wife would kick me out. I had a revenge affair and confessed. Why, because I was very broken. As with all affairs, it was totally on me and I did not care at the time if she kicked me out. So, I went from low to lower. Instead of taking the high road and maintaining my principles, I sunk to a new low.

I know I am not painting a pretty picture. But, I do not want you to stay in your current stage. I can tell from your writings, you are a man of high principle. Keep your head up and know that you can still have a good life. You do not need to take drastic action and will regret it if you do.

I must say my wife tried and kept trying. This is where I see a major gap between us. Your wife is not putting in the effort you need. It really is time to man up and do what is best for you. I know you have thought the best thing is to find a way to reconcile with your wife. She is not cooperating. It may be time to move on and start a new life. You still have plenty of time to have a rewarding life without her.

Thank you for your post Mr. John.

Yes, you are right. I'm also in a very pathetic state. I actually disgust myself and that feeling is also partly responsible for the impetus and motivation I have towards getting out of my state.

I'm in so much pain that I feel like doing anything to stop the pain, but I'm also so principled and stuck up with those principles that I can be very stubborn. Sometimes that works in my favor, sometimes it does not, but I'm developing the emotional intelligence to think in terms of "what I want to create", rather than "how it feels", although, the reality is that very often (and rightly so), "how it will feel" is quite a good compass to decide "what I want to create"

I am happy with who I am, in terms of my core identity and that is of paramount importance to me. If I were to spend time in my own company (not in these turbulent times though), I would be happy (but lonely).

I don't see myself as wanting to live life lonely, and that is why I write so much, post on this forum and seek out deep and meaningful connections.

Yes, more often that not, I also try to drown the pain of infidelity with thoughts of suicide, trying to imagine what it would be like to feel no pain, infact to not feel at all, infact to not even exist in this seemingly wretched world full of suffering.

I find you and your wife's story inspirational. I call it inspirational because you both stuck with each other no matter what. Sometimes I get dragged into the mindset that it does not matter who sacrifices or puts in how much in a relationship, and that the only thing that matters is that 2 people in a relationship make it survive and are there for each other. But then, when I think about that, I realize that being "physically there" is very different than being "connected".

That is why I'm starting to honor my own true self (or atleast my part human identity if not my true spiritual identity) and realizing that if divorce is inevitable, I should not fight it. I can either continue to try to choose perfection (the relationship should not be broken) and misery OR imperfection (a relationship can break) and peace.

February 2, 2016

I think I feel more for the kids. They are subjected to/growing up with this as their example for marriage. They will choose what they see and know.

And you are setting that as an example for them.

It's sad - when they are married and have a marriage that looks just like yours what are you planning to tell them when they come to you unhappy?

Think about that. They will choose what they've learned. This will be THEIR "normal".

It sickens me.

And it is extremely odd that you rarely mention them and the effects this whole mess has had on them!

The honest truth is that I have been in so much pain that it has been self absorbing to be honest. I do know a little about what they are going through, but my wife tends to hoard them to a large extent, probably partly because its her intuitive motherly nature to care for them (and worry for them) to an excessive degree and also probably because she feels insecure and in need of them to prove her motherly capabilities.

I spend some time with them on weekends and on about 2 weekday evenings, after work, but probably just for 30 minutes. I ask them how their day went.

I can see that they are affected by all this, but we try to contain the damage as best as we can. What my wife did, is already done. Our daughter knows what my wife did, atleast to the extent that a 11 year old girl can understand. Our son, who is 6 knows that something is not going well between his parents.

February 2, 2016

Mr. Blunt,
I want to hear more, so please do tell me more.

NS, it will not do you a lot of good right now for me to tell you more because you have pointed out the number one problem right now. You said

My point is: My self-esteem is completely depleted.

Without building yourself up you will not be able to do what has been posted in this thread by many posters.

I have posted to you many times and the common thread in my posts were addressing your completely depleted self-esteem. I even gave you the specific people and tools that I used to get a lot better, see reprint below

By Blunt

However, you should get others to help. Do you have friends, family, faith, or the ability to continue good professional’s therapy?

You desperately need to know that you are loved, valued, and accepted and the above tools can really make a difference. If you are a man of faith then you can know that there is a God that will ALWAYS KEEP HIS PROMISES, You can always trust Him, and he will always love you because He has the power and benevolence to do that. Family, IC, and friends can be the tangible help.

My opinion is that you should utilize several or all of the above and IMMERSE yourself in those tools. Do not be hesitant or ashamed that you have to lean on those tools as many of us BS have had to do that. You have IC and if they are good and helping they will know SPECIFICALLY what you can do to get better. If they do not get you better then drop them and get another IC. Just remember that you are going to have to do what will get you better even if it is hard or you feel like it.

There is hope that your wife will do a much better job than she is right now but you MUST concentrate on you RIGHT NOW until she does a LOT better. One thing I am sure of and that is that you can get a LOT better with or without her. I know you want to be with her but just know that you can make it either way. Millions have done that and so can you.

You are of paramount importance to your children!

NS,

You are a sensitive man with high standards. You have two children that need you desperately and my assumption is that you are very much loved by your children and that you are a very good father. I strongly encourage you to RUN and get help with your suicide thoughts because they are the results of damaged emotions that can get a lot better. You are way too valuable to your children to allow those thoughts to come into your mind. You have a lot of years to live and the potential to have a lot of good times and receive love from others such as your children.

You are at a very low point right now but know that many have been where you are and got a lot better. You may not feel that way right now but take it from us husbands that have been betrayed. You have a lot to live for even though your emotions tell you different right now.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Mr Blunt

February 2, 2016

It took me at least a year after dday to start being able to function. I think i cried everyday for a year at least, anxiety was through the roof, nightmares, sleep problems, weight loss, hopelessness. Mind you, this was with the support of my wh. After my utter depresdion started to lift I began to see things for what they were. Some people have more clarity and early on. I think thats the key ..moving out of the soul sucking depression. If you havent seen a doctor for antidepressants now is the time. Give it a shot. Like you said you cant keep living this way. True! You are going to have to help yourself! As a person with a codependant personality, you need to work on this because Im sure you dont like the feeling of being so tied to someone who is emotionally unavailable. I remember as a kid, I had two friends. As you know three is an odd number. For whatever reason these friends were leaving me out. I so nadly wanted to be their friend and one of them said ok if you kiss my feet you can. I stupidly did. That memory has stuck with me ever since. The point being you can probably think back in time and recognize other instances when you didnt believe/stick up for yourself. This kind of thing follows you and then you allow abuse. The desire to be wanted and needed is soo strong but at what cost NS? You need you. She should be an addition to your life. Just by what you say you need to work on becoming a healthier version of you. You know this! Go forward !

February 2, 2016

The damage goes way beyond what you're seeing now - surely you must realize that, right?

This stays with kids for their lifetime. The example you set for them is what they choose as their future/adult life situation.

What example do you really intend to show them?

I understand the extent of the damage. I have been the result of that damage too, growing up in a home in which my father openly had an affair, so I know the effect, first hand. My father NEVER apologized for his actions, to this day, till he is 88. I have been tormented my entire life by my father's actions and behaviors related to his affair.

I KNOW, first hand. Yes, this stays with kids for their life time.

But why are you telling ME this? I am not the one that had the affair. My wife did. What example are you envisioning me to really show them?

If you ask me what example I'm showing them, I'm showing them that I'm trying as hard as I can to work on repairing the marriage, by the damage caused by their mother. I'm also showing them that I'm taking responsibility for my own recovery, either by expecting the person who caused the damage to take the responsibility of most of the repair, or if that is not working, then by taking the steps I need to, to take care of myself and separate from their mother.

What other example are you talking about if not that?

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