Dealing with wife's affair.

[Ladyjane14]

Its hard for me too to say how remorseful my wife really is. That is an "inside" story, within my wife, which she obviously does not share with me. If she did share how remorseful she really is, I would know, because she would express it to me. Even if she really is very remorseful, she is only doing it for herself. If she included me in her thoughts, she would also understand that expressing her remorse is just as important as being remorseful. Therein lies the difference between a wayward spouse who takes the active role of a rebuilder (doing the heavy lifting) and one of just wanting everything to get fixed on its own (somehow and magically).

 

I'm going to be straight up with you, okay? From here it does NOT look to me like you've got an "unremorseful" wife. It looks like you've got a withdrawn one... walled off emotionally after dealing with months of your mood swings. Just guessing, because like I said earlier, we haven't had both sides. And while those mood swings are understandable under the circumstances, they've mangled your reconciliation attempts.

 

You've got to get your anxiety under control, man. Try Rewire Your Anxious Brain: How to Use the Neuroscience of Fear to End Anxiety, Panic, and Worry by Pittman and Karle. In it, you'll see that all this ruminating is feeding your anxiety and indecision. So, you're at a point in your life where you need to make a serious choice about what course to take, but here you are... frozen in a mental feedback loop. Your thinking becomes circular and the more you ruminate, looking for solutions, the stronger the neural connections to the trauma become. Your brain ends up like a stuck record, with the needle just digging deeper and deeper grooves into the vinyl.

 

Now, the 180 is a good plan if you're doing it because you're pretty much done with the marriage. And sometimes, a wayward will surprise you and decide they want back in. But most often, you're just giving them an excuse to do the same. You end up in Gottman's "Roach Motel for Lovers" until somebody finally packs a bag and heads out the door. I honestly don't think you'd still be here if that's what you wanted.

 

Soooo... step one, see the doctor, see the shrink, read some books, whatever, but get your anxiety under control so you can think straight. Then, make a decision as to whether you want in or out of the marriage. If you want in, or think you might want in, then start acting like it. Early on, it's a fake-it-'til-you-make-it" proposition anyway, because nobody is 100% sure of success when they first start out.

[merrmeade]

NS,

 

I don't like this guessing and projecting about what your wife feels and thinks. We really can't know, but two things stand out for me. One is Mrs. JA's reaction to all you've said about your wife. Her radar as a remorseful WS is good; she knows what it should be and what a false note sounds like.

 

Another thing I keep remembering is what you said you overheard when she was talking in the closet (post #773):

She even asked him if it was a good idea if she should

request a separation if she felt this way, 80% of the time

. I believe my friend tried to explain to her that it was normal for me to feel resentment and disgust, under these circumstances. I believe he advised her to correct her perspective and to be patient with me.

At the same time, I believe he also advised her to not push herself to do anything which made her feel disrespected. After she found out that I had accidentally overheard some things, she asked about specifically what I had overheard. Then, she started justifying things, saying that she was in the process of correcting her own perception of me and that I should try to be patient with her.

That interaction conveyed so many obstacles.

 

First, she's only 20% in. This is not the remorseful WS who's rededicated herself to you and will do anything to prove it to you.

 

Second, she's hiding things from you - like how she feels. And the (apparent) problems with disrespect? Even if it's true that you've disrespected her, UNTIL you are, at least, out of the wildly vacillating moods trauma stage, it works this way:

• YOU, as the betrayed spouse, get the bigger margin of understanding and leeway to say and do things not normal for you because of your mental state destroyed by the trauma of the betrayal.
• SHE, as the unfaithful spouse, gets no margin to hide in closets and share secrets about anything. The only dignity she should want is what she can earn back. She should not hold your irrationality against you. She should be so regretful for having been the cause of your being this way that she can overlook the difficulties it causes.

 

So clearly, NS, it's you who's not able to process things accurately yet still overanalyzing everything. To still be thinking, you can make her see and be more sorry for what she did to you, was an indication to me, especially after that closet scene, that you are obsessing and not seeing the reality.

 

One more thing: the 180. You have to embrace it body AND soul, of course. The first stage is implementing. The second stage is noticing improvements - a little happinesses that you're able to enjoy, pride at being able not to think about it/her for a whole hour, etc. - and making a big deal (to yourself) out of every little accomplishment as they increase ... and they will.

[Mr Blunt]

NS, you have asked us a ton of questions and we have answered them. Listed below are some questions for you that will help clarify your situation.

 

Questions for NS:

 

1 Do you agree that your wife is not remorseful and that you have no chance at R right now?

 

2 What specifically is your plan to work on only you and build yourself up?

 

 

3 Are you willing to take some strong actions in order to give R a chance?

 

 

4 Do you know that your actions so far are not enough to stop the severe damage that is occurring to your self-esteem?

 

 

5 At this point which do you think would be better R or D for you and your children?

 

 

I hope you answer the above questions because they are based on the many posts on this thread.

[AlwaysGrowing]

IMO, she may well BE remorseful, but she has decided that she has to protect herself first, and then consider helping you heal. Which is basically what the therapist said, and the therapist is there, not us.

 

I have great remorse over some things I've done, but it doesn't mean I would make myself vulnerable to right those wrongs. What I DO suspect is that she's just waiting for him to give up, so she can leave. She may feel (this is me DJing) that it just won't work out, that his inability to heal or work on himself has told her it will never work out, so she has given up. We really don't know, since she isn't here telling us what's going on in her head.

 

 

I guess my thoughts on remorse are very different than yours.

 

Remorse is action, that does ask one to make themselves vulnerable to right a wrong that we have done.

 

Just feeling bad about what one has done is merely regret.

[thecharade]

Please, I am not advocating a personal position, I am advocating an almost universal therapeutic position. Giving NS what I deem bad, amateur advice is alarming to me. I realize we are all entitled to our opinion and that he doesn't need to listen to any of us, but there is no therapist that would be giving NS advice to open up toward his 'poor, undersupported' wayward wife, not even someone following Gottman's approach! If anyone knows of research or credible infidelity counsel that indicates his wife should be trusted, please post it so that I can understand the reasoning.

 

Here is a part of Gottman's own Web page on how a betrayed spouse should feel and deal with infidelity (link was posted in an earlier thread).

 

"You need to communicate what you need to repair the relationship. That can be hard because sometimes you don’t even know yourself what you need. For most couples in this situation, transparency is a must. That means that your partner needs to be an open book about where they are, who they are with, when to expect their return, and immediate communication if there is a change in plans, or if they have had any encounter with the affair partner. It goes without saying that the affair must end*and that all communication with the affair partner ceases.

 

The biggest issue in establishing a transparent relationship is hearing the full story of the affair.* While it is best to avoid questions regarding specific sexual behaviors, all other questions must be answered openly and honestly. The betrayer who tries to “soften the blow” by hiding details of the affair runs the risk of creating a second betrayal when their partner discovers those details that had previously been omitted. If you need to have access to your partner’s email accounts and text messages, it is okay to ask for that. You might want to write out a list of what your needs are. It is okay to have needs and to ask your partner to honor them."

 

NS has not gotten any of this in attitude or action. He is not safe because his wife is not making him safe, therefore he must focus on himself. It is not uncommon for spouses to fake change and support in the early months, but abandoning those changes is widely considered a false reconciliation.

 

NS's wife is safe in her M, even if NS's actions are imperfect. His intentions are pure and there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

NS is not safe from being hurt and/or manipulated because his W's ACTIONS (I don't need to know her feelings or have her here to speak) do not instill trust that her intentions are pure, and that is all anyone needs to know. Including Gottman.

[Naively.Sensitive]

I absolutely disagree with you...she is NOT remorseful. She might be sorry...but she is not feeling remorse.

 

Being remorseful means taking on the pain of the one you hurt. It means placing them first...their pain, their needs, their wants, their desires.....You put them FIRST.

 

Trust me....I was sorry for thirty years....I was humbled....and I THOUGHT i was remorseful.

 

But until I truly felt remorse....I did not understand what it is.

 

This woman does not have a CLUE what remorse is......and her actions prove it. Now...you could be right...that she is waiting for him to leave...I cant begin to guess what she is thinking. But her actions say...she does not have remorse.

 

Regardless of whether she is feeling remorse or not, she is not doing any of the things that Mrs. John Adams mentioned, and that is exactly what I need. All she is doing is giving me reasons why she is not able to do what I need. While those reasons may be legitimate, it does not solve the problem and so, the relationship is not working out.

[drifter777]

What are your next steps? Please don't say "I don't know" because you've been stuck there too long and it's time for action. Maybe you just have to accept a bad situation and a lousy marriage and move forward without resolution. Men do this all the time. I think you are torturing yourself with your indecision.

[thecharade]

I am sorry, NaievelySensitive. Once I actually threw in the towel on my M, everything in my life got better. Once I gave up trying to control the outcome and stopped thinking that my happiness was a place or title or destination, peace came over me. Happiness is in me, wherever I am or wherever I am going. It will all be ok because I enjoy where I am at. Always. Mindfulness. Appreciation. You seem to be moving in that direction, and I believe you will also find much peace, NS.

 

Wherever you end up, you will be fine. Stay strong in you.

[Naively.Sensitive]

All,

 

This thread show the real danger of staying on one place and not doing anything. The fundamental issues remain, and both just keep being damaged. It would be better if he or she did something, anything to break this situation. Him or her getting mad and walking out, filing for divorce, trying, something, anything to try and reconcile. In stead they both stay where they are, both in pain and I see them staying that way.

 

The path is open, TAKE action. Try IC, try MC, file for divorce, move out, kick her out, but do not just stay the same and relive over and over the same day, weeks, months. If NS is to move on and heal from this he first must step up and take responsibility for his own actions, or lack of actions, and ultimately his own life and happiness.

 

At this point, I would like to see NS do anything, that is legal and moral, to move beyond where he is at. Several paths have been discussed, pick one. Staying put is not helping him.

 

NS as always I wish you luck, but remember, luck is always with the ones who do.

 

I have booked an appointment for IC for myself, I'm already in MC, I'm considering filing for divorce and I asked my wife if she could move out of our bedroom this morning (or that I plan to move out if she does not). I asked her if she would contest a joint custody of the children and she said she wanted to keep the children and just give me visitation rights. I told her that it would be something the court would decide, because I wasn't willing to give up my 50% custody of the children.

 

After this conversation, she broke down and started begging me that she was willing to do anything, but to not "take the children away from her". I told her that it was her who was trying to take the children away from me by asking for a full custody. She started begging me again, crying and then started removing her clothes, acting like I was pressuring her to have sex or something. I told her that sex was the last thing on my mind, because I had not even crossed Step 1, which was feeling remorse from her and an understanding and support for my pain.

 

It got really really ugly. I told her what I needed for the relationship to heal because she kept asking me (consistent and continued heartfelt remorses and support for my extreme pain, until I healed).

 

She then immediately hugged me as I was crying desperately and she said "Sorry" while she hugged me. She asked if this is what I wanted and I nodded. But then, she also said that it was hard for her to do this.

 

I also told her that there are about 10 more simple things I needed from her. She seemed shocked that there were 10 items on my list. I told her that they were simple things, not something like sex tapes. She asked me if I could be patient, because she was not able to express remorse in words and hug me at the same time. I told her that I could not continue to live my life like this and needed to move on. I told her that I will give 1 more MC session a chance, after which is should become clear if she is going to be capable of giving me what I need in this relationship or not. After that, I told her that I plan to take a decision about the divorce. Child custody would then have to be contested in court.

 

Its just a nightmare, living my every day of my life in so much pain. The next MC session is in 2 days.

[turnera]

NS,

 

I don't like this guessing and projecting about what your wife feels and thinks. We really can't know, but two things stand out for me. One is Mrs. JA's reaction to all you've said about your wife. Her radar as a remorseful WS is good; she knows what it should be and what a false note sounds like.

 

Another thing I keep remembering is what you said you overheard when she was talking in the closet (post #773):

She even asked him if it was a good idea if she should

request a separation if she felt this way, 80% of the time

.

That interaction conveyed so many obstacles.

 

First, she's only 20% in. This is not the remorseful WS who's rededicated herself to you and will do anything to prove it to you.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, so I'll stop, but I wanted to clarify something. She didn't say she was only 20% in. She said she felt disrespected 80% of the time. That's not the same thing. See below.

 

I accidentally overheard some of her conversations (She has also accidentally overheard some of mine). I only heard her side, as she talked from her cellphone, from inside the closet.

She was describing to this common friend how I reacted to her and how she saw me angry. How fights happened between us sometimes. She told my friend that she found it very hard to come to me when she felt disrespected. She told him that she felt resentment from me and that she found it very hard to show me her love and support when she saw resentment in me.

She even asked him if it was a good idea if she should request a separation if she felt this way, 80% of the time.

She was explaining that SHE felt bad, too, and that she knew she should come to him but that she, too, was being made to feel bad.

 

Mind, this has been going on for, what, 9 months? And when she comes to him, he is angry, crying, over the top...for how MUCH of those 9 months? Sure, she needs to understand that he has a right to be mad. But if she retreats when someone is angry with her, well, that's how she was raised. It doesn't mean she's not remorseful; just that she has a hard time dealing with anger and emotion. And that she may be the kind of person who retreats from it. I know that feeling, because I do, too. I'll leave the house as soon as my H starts yelling; it's fight or flight, and my FOO makes me go flight.

 

Should he expect more? Of course. Should he consider going about it in a...less emotional way? I would think so. If she's made it clear that she can't handle the anger, if HE still wants to be married to her, it would behoove him to understand that, for her to give him what HE wants, he should consider toning down the anger and approaching this from another vantage point. If it will get him what he wants - her open and honest and giving and making things up to him - why is that such a bad thing? Because there's only one way to deal with a cheating woman, by sl*t shaming her and making her grovel on the ground?

[Naively.Sensitive]

What are your next steps? Please don't say "I don't know" because you've been stuck there too long and it's time for action. Maybe you just have to accept a bad situation and a lousy marriage and move forward without resolution. Men do this all the time. I think you are torturing yourself with your indecision.

 

My next actions are:

Go for my IC session, go for the next MC session, review divorce forms and options, look for a good lawyer that is an expert in contesting child custody and advocating the grounds for divorce (adultery).

[Naively.Sensitive]

I know I'm beating a dead horse, so I'll stop, but I wanted to clarify something. She didn't say she was only 20% in. She said she felt disrespected 80% of the time. That's not the same thing. See below.

 

She was explaining that SHE felt bad, too, and that she knew she should come to him but that she, too, was being made to feel bad.

 

Mind, this has been going on for, what, 9 months? And when she comes to him, he is angry, crying, over the top...for how MUCH of those 9 months? Sure, she needs to understand that he has a right to be mad. But if she retreats when someone is angry with her, well, that's how she was raised. It doesn't mean she's not remorseful; just that she has a hard time dealing with anger and emotion. And that she may be the kind of person who retreats from it. I know that feeling, because I do, too. I'll leave the house as soon as my H starts yelling; it's fight or flight, and my FOO makes me go flight.

 

Should he expect more? Of course. Should he consider going about it in a...less emotional way? I would think so. If she's made it clear that she can't handle the anger, if HE still wants to be married to her, it would behoove him to understand that, for her to give him what HE wants, he should consider toning down the anger and approaching this from another vantage point. If it will get him what he wants - her open and honest and giving and making things up to him - why is that such a bad thing? Because there's only one way to deal with a cheating woman, by sl*t shaming her and making her grovel on the ground?

 

When I feel anger, I'm silent, I don't yell. Its a passive aggression. Maybe she cannot deal with that. I find its the only way I can deal with anger (as opposed to active aggression) Even when I don't feel anger, but feel extreme pain instead (to the point I'm crying), she is not able to offer remorse and support in the way I need it. Why not? She is just catering to every one of her own emotions and guarding her own guilt, in preference to my desperate needs. That is not working. I need a wife who can support me and she is not being that person.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I have booked an appointment for IC for myself, I'm already in MC, I'm considering filing for divorce and I asked my wife if she could move out of our bedroom this morning (or that I plan to move out if she does not). I asked her if she would contest a joint custody of the children and she said she wanted to keep the children and just give me visitation rights. I told her that it would be something the court would decide, because I wasn't willing to give up my 50% custody of the children.

 

After this conversation, she broke down and started begging me that she was willing to do anything, but to not "take the children away from her". I told her that it was her who was trying to take the children away from me by asking for a full custody. She started begging me again, crying and then started removing her clothes, acting like I was pressuring her to have sex or something. I told her that sex was the last thing on my mind, because I had not even crossed Step 1, which was feeling remorse from her and an understanding and support for my pain.

 

It got really really ugly. I told her what I needed for the relationship to heal because she kept asking me (consistent and continued heartfelt remorses and support for my extreme pain, until I healed).

 

She then immediately hugged me as I was crying desperately and she said "Sorry" while she hugged me. She asked if this is what I wanted and I nodded. But then, she also said that it was hard for her to do this.

 

I also told her that there are about 10 more simple things I needed from her. She seemed shocked that there were 10 items on my list. I told her that they were simple things, not something like sex tapes. She asked me if I could be patient, because she was not able to express remorse in words and hug me at the same time. I told her that I could not continue to live my life like this and needed to move on. I told her that I will give 1 more MC session a chance, after which is should become clear if she is going to be capable of giving me what I need in this relationship or not. After that, I told her that I plan to take a decision about the divorce. Child custody would then have to be contested in court.

 

Its just a nightmare, living my every day of my life in so much pain. The next MC session is in 2 days.

 

NS....

First let me tell you that this broke my heart.....

 

This was the perfect opportunity for your wife to say to you.....What can I do? How can I help you?

She read the book How to help your spouse heal from your affair.....if she had any remorse whatsoever....this would have been the opportunity to PARROT the book. She can't ...because it does not resonate with her.

Her reactions are so ME oriented...that she truly does not give a flip about you. She doesn't care about your pain...she doesn't care about your feelings....she doesn't care about your fears.....she doesn't even care what this means for your children.

 

She wants full custody....which means she also gets more money....which means she gets to have control over you.

With 50/50....you both have a say in what transpires in their lives.

 

Please take a real look at all the things she said today. Did she once indicate to you that in any way...you came first?

 

A remorseful wife...who wants to reconcile and heal a marriage she broke through her selfish act of infidelity...will step toward the husband she betrayed. It is not up to you to step toward her. You already did that by allowing her to stay in your home.

 

The next step is hers....transparency. She has not taken that step.

 

and because she has done nothing to make you feel safe in this relationship....she creates more of a distance.....she drives you further away.

 

I am glad you have scheduled therapy....you truly need an outlet...and you need support.

 

Are you receiving any support from your family?

Edited January 31, 2016 by Mrs. John Adams

[Ladyjane14]

Please, I am not advocating a personal position, I am advocating an almost universal therapeutic position. Giving NS what I deem bad, amateur advice is alarming to me. I realize we are all entitled to our opinion and that he doesn't need to listen to any of us, but there is no therapist that would be giving NS advice to open up toward his 'poor, undersupported' wayward wife, not even someone following Gottman's approach! If anyone knows of research or credible infidelity counsel that indicates his wife should be trusted, please post it so that I can understand the reasoning.

 

Here is a part of Gottman's own Web page on how a betrayed spouse should feel and deal with infidelity (link was posted in an earlier thread).

 

"You need to communicate what you need to repair the relationship. That can be hard because sometimes you don’t even know yourself what you need. For most couples in this situation, transparency is a must. That means that your partner needs to be an open book about where they are, who they are with, when to expect their return, and immediate communication if there is a change in plans, or if they have had any encounter with the affair partner. It goes without saying that the affair must end*and that all communication with the affair partner ceases.

 

The biggest issue in establishing a transparent relationship is hearing the full story of the affair.* While it is best to avoid questions regarding specific sexual behaviors, all other questions must be answered openly and honestly. The betrayer who tries to “soften the blow” by hiding details of the affair runs the risk of creating a second betrayal when their partner discovers those details that had previously been omitted. If you need to have access to your partner’s email accounts and text messages, it is okay to ask for that. You might want to write out a list of what your needs are. It is okay to have needs and to ask your partner to honor them."

 

NS has not gotten any of this in attitude or action. He is not safe because his wife is not making him safe, therefore he must focus on himself. It is not uncommon for spouses to fake change and support in the early months, but abandoning those changes is widely considered a false reconciliation.

 

NS's wife is safe in her M, even if NS's actions are imperfect. His intentions are pure and there is nothing to indicate otherwise.

NS is not safe from being hurt and/or manipulated because his W's ACTIONS (I don't need to know her feelings or have her here to speak) do not instill trust that her intentions are pure, and that is all anyone needs to know. Including Gottman.

 

We must be reading two different threads.. because in the thread I read, the wife's confession was audio recorded for hours and the OP's main complaint was that his wife had withdrawn her consent to videotaping sex and had moved out of the bedroom.

[turnera]

When I feel anger, I'm silent, I don't yell. Its a passive aggression. Maybe she cannot deal with that. I find its the only way I can deal with anger

Just for understanding, my H doesn't get openly angry either. He, too, is passive aggressive, and I am TERRIFIED of it. So much so that every single day I have a moment of wondering if I should do this or that, in case it brings on the passive aggressiveness.

 

And when I say passive aggressiveness, I'm talking down to a raised eyebrow, or tightening of the lips, or stiffening of his shoulders. Let alone the 'whatever!' comment or the 'What did I do now?' types of comments.

 

I love when he travels because I know I'll have at least a day without worrying about his anger.

 

And trust me, he has NO idea that he walks around angry and negative all the time, even though I've told him many times about it. He doesn't see it, so it doesn't exist. But it's a part of my daily life.

 

The fact that she would disrobe and give you her body like that is EXTREMELY disturbing. That should be the FIRST thing you discuss in MC because, at least to me, it displays a profound lack of equality in your marriage. Or else that she's just severely disturbed. Either way, it would explain a LOT about why this isn't working out.

[Naively.Sensitive]

NS....

First let me tell you that this broke my heart.....

 

This was the perfect opportunity for your wife to say to you.....What can I do? How can I help you?

She read the book How to help your spouse heal from your affair.....if she had any remorse whatsoever....this would have been the opportunity to PARROT the book. She can't ...because it does not resonate with her.

Her reactions are so ME oriented...that she truly does not give a flip about you. She doesn't care about your pain...she doesn't care about your feelings....she doesn't care about your fears.....she doesn't even care what this means for your children.

 

She wants full custody....which means she also gets more money....which means she gets to have control over you.

With 50/50....you both have a say in what transpires in their lives.

 

Please take a real look at all the things she said today. Did she once indicate to you that in any way...you came first?

 

A remorseful wife...who wants to reconcile and heal a marriage she broke through her selfish act of infidelity...will step toward the husband she betrayed. It is not up to you to step toward her. You already did that by allowing her to stay in your home.

 

The next step is hers....transparency. She has not taken that step.

 

and because she has done nothing to make you feel safe in this relationship....she creates more of a distance.....she drives you further away.

 

I am glad you have scheduled therapy....you truly need an outlet...and you need support.

 

Are you receiving any support from your family?

 

Her reactions this morning just screamed, "This is why I'm not able to do this." (reasons, reasons, more reasons and justifications). Nothing in there clearly showed me that she could put her emotions behind herself a little, just so she could give me everything I need so desperately to heal. It feels like I'm not getting the apology from the ONLY person who can give it to me. So, it feels like I have no choice but to remove that person from my life, because everytime I see her face, it reminds me of what she is NOT capable of giving me. The CONTINUED support, love, compassion and deep understanding of the pain she has and IS causing me.

 

I don't have much support from my family. My Dad is 88 years old and I cannot burden him. My Mum is 80 and is in need of emotional support herself, for relationship problems she is going through. My brothers are not able to support me either. I'm basically all alone in this world. I have perhaps just 1 friend (of the many so called "friends") who checks on me via phone, everyday. Thats about it.

[Mrs. John Adams]

It isn't working out...because she doesn't want it to. It is not complicated.

 

IF she wanted to reconcile...she would do what is necessary to rebuild the relationship. She knows he is ALL in...she knows reconciliation is what he wants. He has shown her his hand. Instead of using that knowledge to repair the damage she did...she continues to add to it.

 

Someone please tell me...what has she done right?

 

Look...it is a learning process....we don't know how to fix what we have done...but the basics have to at least be there. You don't need books and internet forums, and therapists to figure out step one. MY affair was thirty years ago....I did not have any outside help. But I was smart enough to know the first thing i needed to do was to rebuild trust....and the first way to do that was to become open to him about everything. Even though I said very hurtful things....he knew I was being honest and while it hurt him...he knew that was how I really felt.

 

Basics....become honest...become transparent...focus on showing your husband that you are sorry for what you have done by making him feel safe.

It is not difficult.

 

and honestly...I do not hear NS demanding anything from her...except to help him feel safe.

 

We can make every excuse in the book for her....we can blame NS for making mistakes and for being angry etc. Which of us has not acted just like him when we first had to deal with our affairs?

 

He has given her months to take step one......he is tired, he is frustrated, he is angry, and he is broken......

 

I dont care what he did wrong...he never deserved this....

 

I pray he finds the strength to take a step forward....without her. And maybe someday down the road....she will see what she has done and help him to reconcile...because I know that is what he truly wants.

[Mrs. John Adams]

ahh NS...I am so very sorry. I wish you had someone you could share your fears with. That kind of helps explain why you are here.

 

You need support and Loveshack seems to be the only place you get it.

 

I do think maybe you should ask your wife to leave...legally if you leave it may be an advantage to her....though I am not experienced in divorce matters.

 

Your wife is not a bad person NS....i hope you know I feel tremendous empathy for her. But I don't think she is ready to reconcile....and I don't know that she will ever be able to give you what you want and need. SO ...at this point it really is important for you to take care of you so you can take care of your children.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Just for understanding, my H doesn't get openly angry either. He, too, is passive aggressive, and I am TERRIFIED of it. So much so that every single day I have a moment of wondering if I should do this or that, in case it brings on the passive aggressiveness.

 

And when I say passive aggressiveness, I'm talking down to a raised eyebrow, or tightening of the lips, or stiffening of his shoulders. Let alone the 'whatever!' comment or the 'What did I do now?' types of comments.

 

I love when he travels because I know I'll have at least a day without worrying about his anger.

 

And trust me, he has NO idea that he walks around angry and negative all the time, even though I've told him many times about it. He doesn't see it, so it doesn't exist. But it's a part of my daily life.

 

The fact that she would disrobe and give you her body like that is EXTREMELY disturbing. That should be the FIRST thing you discuss in MC because, at least to me, it displays a profound lack of equality in your marriage. Or else that she's just severely disturbed. Either way, it would explain a LOT about why this isn't working out.

 

I need to understand more from you about why you feel the anger from passive aggression. The best I can do is to keep silent, but I don't know how else to let myself feel the anger. If I don't let myself feel the anger, thats even worse! I would just explode one day, probably breakdown in tears and anger.

When I feel anger passively, it feels like I atleast have a right to deal with my emotions until they subside. Why is that understanding not obvious? The anger is not "directed", it is simply "felt". I would rather that my wife not "feel" threatened, because I have NEVER done anything to harm her, physically or otherwise. So, why should she fear me?

 

It was extremely disturbing to me too that she disrobed and completely misunderstood what I needed from her, inspite of describing to her very calmly, EXACTLY what I was missing. What do you think is going on here? Why would she do this inspite of me TELLING her exactly what I needed? Was she preferring to offer me her body for sex than to simply continue to offer heartfelt apologies and support with a hug for my pain? What sense does that make? I don't understand!

 

Why are continued heartfelt apologies so hard for her, along with heartfelt hugs to "share" my pain?

[Naively.Sensitive]

It isn't working out...because she doesn't want it to. It is not complicated.

 

IF she wanted to reconcile...she would do what is necessary to rebuild the relationship. She knows he is ALL in...she knows reconciliation is what he wants. He has shown her his hand. Instead of using that knowledge to repair the damage she did...she continues to add to it.

 

Someone please tell me...what has she done right?

 

Look...it is a learning process....we don't know how to fix what we have done...but the basics have to at least be there. You don't need books and internet forums, and therapists to figure out step one. MY affair was thirty years ago....I did not have any outside help. But I was smart enough to know the first thing i needed to do was to rebuild trust....and the first way to do that was to become open to him about everything. Even though I said very hurtful things....he knew I was being honest and while it hurt him...he knew that was how I really felt.

 

Basics....become honest...become transparent...focus on showing your husband that you are sorry for what you have done by making him feel safe.

It is not difficult.

 

and honestly...I do not hear NS demanding anything from her...except to help him feel safe.

 

We can make every excuse in the book for her....we can blame NS for making mistakes and for being angry etc. Which of us has not acted just like him when we first had to deal with our affairs?

 

He has given her months to take step one......he is tired, he is frustrated, he is angry, and he is broken......

 

I dont care what he did wrong...he never deserved this....

 

I pray he finds the strength to take a step forward....without her. And maybe someday down the road....she will see what she has done and help him to reconcile...because I know that is what he truly wants.

 

Mrs. John Adams,

Your post brings tears to my eyes as I read it. I so desperately want to reconcile but I so desperately need some simple things to reconcile. I have tried to do it without those simple things for 6 months, since my wife needed her "space", but it made matters worse for me. Now that she has had her "space" and moved back into the bedroom since the last 2 weeks or so, I have told her in easy, plain words that her moving back into the bedroom is not a "deep connection". I cannot even imagine having sex with her (which is probably what she feels I'm asking for before anything else), unless she is able to connect with me at a grassroot level of comforting me in my pain.

You really seem to understand in depth what Mr. John really needed from you and you really "get it". It seems like you intuitively knew and did what was needed, in times when there was no internet, no good books on this subject. Here, I have HANDED a book to my wife (The one you suggested, How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda Macdonald), FIRST respectfully asking her if she was willing to read a book. I am giving her the key to the lock of what I need to be able to heal, yet she is refusing to do what is needed. I feel "torn", because here is the woman I married, thinking she was going to support me no matter what, and here is what reality is showing me.... A woman who cannot even follow what a book shows IS needed, or even follow what I tell her I need, for a devastating action that SHE did, to destroy our marriage.

[OneLov]

I need to understand more from you about why you feel the anger from passive aggression.

 

Because it's conflicting behavior. It creates confusion on part of communicatee. The communicatee has to spend a lot of mental energy to try to interpret the communication. There is no certainty. It's chaos.

 

Dude you need to express your emotions. Youre creating confusion by giving conflicted communications. She's not going to respond to your silence.

 

Why haven't you answered Mr Blunt's questions?

[turnera]

I think you should print out this thread and email it to your MC today, so she has a chance to read it before your session.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Mrs. John Adams,

Your post brings tears to my eyes as I read it. I so desperately want to reconcile but I so desperately need some simple things to reconcile. I have tried to do it without those simple things for 6 months, since my wife needed her "space", but it made matters worse for me. Now that she has had her "space" and moved back into the bedroom since the last 2 weeks or so, I have told her in easy, plain words that her moving back into the bedroom is not a "deep connection". I cannot even imagine having sex with her (which is probably what she feels I'm asking for before anything else), unless she is able to connect with me at a grassroot level of comforting me in my pain.

You really seem to understand in depth what Mr. John really needed from you and you really "get it". It seems like you intuitively knew and did what was needed, in times when there was no internet, no good books on this subject. Here, I have HANDED a book to my wife (The one you suggested, How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda Macdonald), FIRST respectfully asking her if she was willing to read a book. I am giving her the key to the lock of what I need to be able to heal, yet she is refusing to do what is needed. I feel "torn", because here is the woman I married, thinking she was going to support me no matter what, and here is what reality is showing me.... A woman who cannot even follow what a book shows IS needed, or even follow what I tell her I need, for a devastating action that SHE did, to destroy our marriage.

 

 

NS....I made so many mistakes....and it took me 30 years to understand exactly where i was failing. It was not because I did not try...I did try...and i would get frustrated with myself and with him...because HE COULD NOT TELL ME what he was looking for.

 

This is why I keep telling you...she cannot give you everything you need if you don't tell her what you want....and the sad part is...you may not really know exactly what you are looking for either!

 

I would say...what do you want me to do? and i was met with silence. Why? Because he didn't know either. Does this sound familiar? So I cut her some slack in this regard......

 

What I do not give her a pass on is her unwillingness to become transparent. Part of me thinks she is afraid....she is holding herself from you to protect her own best interest. Which is good for her...but really bad for the relationship. Because what you need right now is her willingness to be honest.

 

She doesn't even allow herself to hold you.....the basic form of sympathy for someone who is hurting...is an embrace.....and warm tight embrace...and the sharing of tears together....does so much.

 

I understand her willingness to give you sex...she is desperate....and many of us equate sex to acceptance.....if she gives you sex...you will accept her and forgive her. I truly get it..... a kind of hysterical bonding.

 

I so wish she would come here to loveshack and read your thread....it might help her to see your struggle.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Because it's conflicting behavior. It creates confusion on part of communicatee. The communicatee has to spend a lot of mental energy to try to interpret the communication. There is no certainty. It's chaos.

 

Dude you need to express your emotions. Youre creating confusion by giving conflicted communications. She's not going to respond to your silence.

 

Why haven't you answered Mr Blunt's questions?

 

What is the alternative way in which I can handle my anger? Tell her calmly that "I'm angry because of .... reason?", or that I'm generally angry because the thoughts of her affair are bothering me again?

If that is the way to handle it, I can try..... Or I can ask HER how she would prefer that I handle my anger. Or ask her in the presence of the MC? What if I'm angry 80% of the time? Would that be OK for her to accept? Gradually, my hope is to bring that anger down to 70, 60, 50, 40, 30%, but that would also depend on her efforts, wouldn't it?

[Naively.Sensitive]

I think you should print out this thread and email it to your MC today, so she has a chance to read it before your session.

 

I was thinking of doing that, but am not sure if the MC would bill me for the time to read it. If she wants to get to the root of the issues, shouldn't she know how to ask the right questions to extract the information she needs to be able to help us?

 

She has asked us questions, so I'm sure she has made attempts at assessment of our state, our personalities, the past, what we have tried, etc.

The question is has she been able to extract the information she needs?

I wonder if the MC has read any books on infidelity or specifically, "How to help your spouse heal from your affair"?

 

Sometimes I feel that actual people who have been through recovery from an affair may know much more than what an MC may know, because actual people have "felt" the emotions and "felt" the solutions.