I'm Torn (A Dream Relationship)

[J722]

Update:

 

• Deleted #
  
• No social media connection
  
• I've lost hope (in a positive way)
  
• I have moved on
  
• NC is the plan, forever
  

 

Painful, but it's time.

[ExpatInItaly]

My very blunt and brief take on what you've described:

 

This relationship reads like a freakin' business proposal.

Complete with mission statement, business objectives, weekly progress reports, timelines, product development, lists of weak points, and so on. What the heck?

 

Where is the romance in that? Too contrived. Not enough actual substance.

[Oregon_Dude]

This is classic Borderline Personality Disorder behavior.

 

Downtown! We need you!

 

OP, look this up and tell us how many boxes are checked:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

[J722]

My very blunt and brief take on what you've described:

 

This relationship reads like a freakin' business proposal.

Complete with mission statement, business objectives, weekly progress reports, timelines, product development, lists of weak points, and so on. What the heck?

 

Where is the romance in that? Too contrived. Not enough actual substance.

 

Well, mind you, we are both entrepreneurs with more than one business each, and while she is very feminine, was also one of the more logical girls I have been with.

 

In terms of substance, I'd like to think we had plenty, but of course that is subjective.

[J722]

This is classic Borderline Personality Disorder behavior.

 

Downtown! We need you!

 

OP, look this up and tell us how many boxes are checked:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

 

I checked it out, but what specifically are you referring to ---- the large change in emotions from one day to the next or something else?

[Downtown]

I checked it out, but what specifically are you referring to ---- the large change in emotions from one day to the next or something else?

Yes, Jay, I believe Dude is referring to her instantaneous "large change in emotions," as you say.

 

BPD red flags. One of the hallmarks of BPD behavior is the rapid flip between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you). This occurs because BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits) are too emotionally immature to handle strong conflicting feelings. They therefore "split off" the conflicting feeling, putting it out of reach of their conscious minds.

 

Hence, even while a BPDer still have loving feelings for you, she can be in touch only with her negative, hateful feelings. The result is that a BPDer can flip from idealizing you to devaluing you in less than a minute, as though she were flipping a switch in her mind. And she can flip back just as quickly.

 

I suspect that Dude also is referring to the way your exGF mirrored your best attributes so perfectly, during the honeymoon, that you both were convinced (in only a week or two) you had met your "soul mate." Because a BPDer has a weak, fragile sense of who she is, she typically will find a man having a strong personality who can provide the self identity she sorely needs. Hence, during the honeymoon period, she likely will be so infatuated with your strong personality that she'll be convinced you're the nearly perfect man who has come to rescue her from unhappiness.

 

Significantly, that infatuation holds the BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. This is why a BPDer is able to tolerate intense passion and intimacy throughout the infatuation period, which typically lasts 4 to 6 months. As soon as the infatuation starts to evaporate, however, her fears return and you will start triggering them. Indeed, it will be impossible to avoid triggering them because you will trigger the engulfment fear when drawing close to her -- and will trigger the abandonment fear when backing away. Sadly, there is no Goldilocks position in the middle where you can safely stand.

 

Further, Dude may also be referring to your exGF's inability to trust -- which is another hallmark of BPD behavior. This lack of trust doesn't appear during the honeymoon because, as I noted above, the infatuation holds her two fears at bay. As soon as the infatuation evaporates, however, the smallest thing -- e.g., looking at another woman for a second instead of a half-second -- can trigger that fear.

 

An important issue, then, is whether your grocery-store fib/lie was too minor to warrant suggest drastic action: an immediate breakup. I agree with Dude and VeveCakes that it likely was too minor, which suggests that the breakup really arose from her instability, not from your "deception."

 

Cautions. I nonetheless caution that, if your exGF does have strong BPD traits, you eventually would be seeing many more BPD warning signs -- signs you've not seen because (a) she isn't a BPDer or (b) you two broke up right at the end of the infatuation period, before most traits started showing. I therefore suggest you take a look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of these warning signs at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join Dude in discussing them with you.

 

I also caution that learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your exGF's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful experience --e.g., avoid taking her back and avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her.

 

Finally, I caution that the emotional instability you describe may not have been caused by strong BPD traits. As VeveCakes and Clarkwg observe, it is common for such instability to arise temporarily whenever a person -- only a month out of a 5-year failed R/S -- starts another R/S before she's had a chance to heal.

 

Moreover, the two most common causes of temporary instability are a strong hormone change (e.g., puberty, PMS, pregnancy, postpartum, or perimenopause) and drug abuse. If those two things can be ruled out, the two remaining common causes are BPD and bipolar disorder. Take care, Jay.

[J722]

Hey everyone,

 

To follow up --- she reached out after 3 days of NC.

 

She left an audio note saying that she apologizes for not reaching out, and all that stuff, whatever that means.

 

Then she said she's been on an "emotional rollercoaster" and the past 4 nights she's had intense dreams that I had cheated on her with different Women.

 

She then asks me point blank:

 

Were you loyal while we were together?

 

Lastly, she mentions she doesn't think it makes sense to see eachother in person (my last message to her before NC was saying I wanted to speak to her now that the emotional drama had been done).

 

Either way, I don't know what to do.

 

I do want her back, in a very real and deep way.*

 

And if that doesn't happen, I still want to see her for closure and to ask my own questions so I can hopefully understand a slither more about what happened to us (although this may be a fruitless attempt as I know Women rarely will give us the truth).

 

She sent the voicenote last night.

 

What would you recommend?

[J722]

Yes, Jay, I believe Dude is referring to her instantaneous "large change in emotions," as you say.

 

BPD red flags. One of the hallmarks of BPD behavior is the rapid flip between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you). This occurs because BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits) are too emotionally immature to handle strong conflicting feelings. They therefore "split off" the conflicting feeling, putting it out of reach of their conscious minds.

 

Hence, even while a BPDer still have loving feelings for you, she can be in touch only with her negative, hateful feelings. The result is that a BPDer can flip from idealizing you to devaluing you in less than a minute, as though she were flipping a switch in her mind. And she can flip back just as quickly.

 

I suspect that Dude also is referring to the way your exGF mirrored your best attributes so perfectly, during the honeymoon, that you both were convinced (in only a week or two) you had met your "soul mate." Because a BPDer has a weak, fragile sense of who she is, she typically will find a man having a strong personality who can provide the self identity she sorely needs. Hence, during the honeymoon period, she likely will be so infatuated with your strong personality that she'll be convinced you're the nearly perfect man who has come to rescue her from unhappiness.

 

Significantly, that infatuation holds the BPDer's two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. This is why a BPDer is able to tolerate intense passion and intimacy throughout the infatuation period, which typically lasts 4 to 6 months. As soon as the infatuation starts to evaporate, however, her fears return and you will start triggering them. Indeed, it will be impossible to avoid triggering them because you will trigger the engulfment fear when drawing close to her -- and will trigger the abandonment fear when backing away. Sadly, there is no Goldilocks position in the middle where you can safely stand.

 

Further, Dude may also be referring to your exGF's inability to trust -- which is another hallmark of BPD behavior. This lack of trust doesn't appear during the honeymoon because, as I noted above, the infatuation holds her two fears at bay. As soon as the infatuation evaporates, however, the smallest thing -- e.g., looking at another woman for a second instead of a half-second -- can trigger that fear.

 

An important issue, then, is whether your grocery-store fib/lie was too minor to warrant suggest drastic action: an immediate breakup. I agree with Dude and VeveCakes that it likely was too minor, which suggests that the breakup really arose from her instability, not from your "deception."

 

Cautions. I nonetheless caution that, if your exGF does have strong BPD traits, you eventually would be seeing many more BPD warning signs -- signs you've not seen because (a) she isn't a BPDer or (b) you two broke up right at the end of the infatuation period, before most traits started showing. I therefore suggest you take a look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most of those signs sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of these warning signs at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join Dude in discussing them with you.

 

I also caution that learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your exGF's issues. Only a professional can do that. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful experience --e.g., avoid taking her back and avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her.

 

Finally, I caution that the emotional instability you describe may not have been caused by strong BPD traits. As VeveCakes and Clarkwg observe, it is common for such instability to arise temporarily whenever a person -- only a month out of a 5-year failed R/S -- starts another R/S before she's had a chance to heal.

 

Moreover, the two most common causes of temporary instability are a strong hormone change (e.g., puberty, PMS, pregnancy, postpartum, or perimenopause) and drug abuse. If those two things can be ruled out, the two remaining common causes are BPD and bipolar disorder. Take care, Jay.

 

I wanted to thank you for taking the time, energy and expertise to go through this. I'm still thinking about it but it was extremely helpful. Seriously, many, many thanks.

[Captivating]

Amelie 1980 and Vevecakes ....

"J" has a heartache and he is looking for a POSITIVE, CONSTRUCTIVE response.

You guys are way out of line here calling them "unstable" !

If you guys are miserable, VERY ANGRY, (who knows why?) lack compassion and generally have nothing comforting to say to someone in pain.....then maybe work on yourself a little bit before preaching.

There is a lot of room for improvement, it seems like.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Captivating

[makemineamac]

I've read through this and I think there are a number of things going on here.

 

1. She is clearly still mourning her past relationship and is preparing for the next by thinking about everything she wants and needs. That's a healthy exercise regardless of what some have said.

 

Problem is it's way too soon for that relationship to happen. But because she is driven and organized, much like you, she puts her thoughts down and shares them with you. I think it's commendable, but again it's way too early for her more than likely.

 

So I cannot see how she is far enough out to be having a meaningful, fully-engaged relationship with you, I think it's just an intoxicating 'high' for her (and you), and you clearly 'tick' a lot of the boxes she needs filled in her new partner. But again, she's not ready for that.

 

2. As a former liar myself, the biggest problem I see here is that you're also a liar. Plain and simple.

 

If you were ok lying to her about these mundane things to get you out of a situation then you'll likely ok lying about anything. If I was her I would be running like hell after that and it's good she called you on it.

 

Of course, what made the lie(s) worse, is that they were to someone who has just exited a relationship where their partner - you guessed it - lied to them.

 

So I would suggest you take take a little closer look at your need to lie - and you probably do it out of convenience in all parts of your life - I did, and sort that out. Oh, and stop minimizing it too. It clearly wasn't a small issue for her.

 

I wish you all the best but you both have work to do.

 

You clearly have most of your **** together and will find someone that ticks all your boxes as well and you seem like the type that will invest everything which is awesome, you'll be a great partner to someone.

 

In the meantime do some work on yourself, and sort out your need to be dishonest with your partner. It's very telling.

[m4p]

I'm a little taken aback by the strong push towards diagnosing her as having BPD by one of the poster. Thankfully Downtown gave a really thorough and objective view. It's a little dangerous to be armchair-diagnosing someone online when there is hardly any real basis to do so..

 

OP,

To me I still think that the lying was a huge trigger to her. I would if it was me. The exact same thing happened to me years ago. I got out of a mentally exhausting relationship where I got cheated on and had a huge trauma from it. I moved on and got on fine but the next relationship I got into was a huge disaster. I caught my then boyfriend in a utterly mundane lie and nearly went insane with paranoia and anxiety. I didn't know it at that time but after therapy years later the subject came up and I only knew then that my reactions were because of that abusive relationship.

 

All it took for me to be "normal" was time and trustworthy partners/friends for the years after as a basis to build healthy relationships.

 

I do admit I'm not well versed in psychiatric conditions as well as full extent of BPD. I subscribe to the notion that everybody falls under the spectrum from time to time, just in varying degrees of seriousness and subjected to situations and mental state at that point.

 

If you really like her I don't see why it's harmful to reach out to her if you really want closure. What do you have to lose? Her asking you point blank if you were loyal or not simply shows that the lying was a huge huge red flag for HER. It's her deal breaker. are you able to own your part and handle this issue once and for all? As for her, also take this chance to really find out if she is on the same level of feelings as you. If both of you are aligned then it's not entirely hopeless. Just stop lying when you don't even had to. It might be convenient but it makes any form of relationship extremely unhealthy and traumatizing. No matter how exemplary you are in your character/behavior, it's the worst thing that can affect how another person view you as a whole...

 

Best of luck!

[frigginlost]

I have dated a woman with BPD, and I have a very close friend who is BPD. As usual, Downtown just knocks the cover off the ball in his discussions regarding it. It really is stellar stuff!

 

I will admit that when I first read your post I did get the feeling that she may fall in that spectrum... but having digested it, I'm not so sure.

 

This really, really, feels like a rebound situation. Rebounds can be completely emotional and non physical. Folks in a rebound are looking to "bury" any and all emotional baggage regarding their previous relationship. This is why sometimes a rebounder will connect with someone who is completely opposite of them or who they were previously with. No chance of "trigger" situations that would bring emotional pain in remembrance.

 

The fact that you are highly, highly, analytical may have been something she latched on to as she was hurt by him in the past, and your analytical nature may have been comforting to her as she felt you 100% truthful.

 

When the reality of you just being a "normal" guy who has flaws hit her by lying, a domino fall was set in motion.

 

The best thing you can do right now, is continue your life and being the best you, you can be. Give her time to sort her feelings and expect nothing. It's extremely tough to do, but you have to do it for you.

 

Your paths may cross again and if so. *Do not* treat it as an analytical process (nor do it if you move into a different relationship). Let things play out naturally...

 

Bullet points do not make a relationship....