MiChick43 Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 By an independent woman I would understand a woman who has a great career, makes good money, has lots of friends, social life, family, etc. and will not be clingy to her partner, will always have her life and be herself, will not beg for love out of mercy or despair, etc My thoughts as well! Well put. I have an exclusive relationship with a wonderful man. But I like living in my house. Ive given my heart to him totally, trust him totally. But I still like living on my own in my own space. I think he is hoping this changes, at some point. I do too but for now Im comfortable.
tokyo Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 Originally posted by RecordProducer So you're talking about women who don't get easily attached to men and seem cold because they fear to become emotionally dependent. That's nothing to do with independence. People who are afraid to fall in love are There's nothing sick about being afraid to get hurt again. It's not wise maybe, but not sick. By an independent woman I would understand a woman who has a great career, makes good money, has lots of friends, social life, family, etc. and will not be clingy to her partner, will always have her life and be herself, will not beg for love out of mercy or despair, etc. What if the woman does not want to have a great career? What if she chooses to do something that she likes, even though it doesn't pay well? Why does she have to have a lot of friends if she's happy with a few, but really good friends? Do mean with 'social life' that she has to go out all the time even though she's an introvert person? The rest is ok, but the first few things you mentioned I can't agree with, because I don't see any independence here. These are things that are important to you and some other people, but I don't think that by pursuing them this will make you an independent person. Independence is a little bit more. I define it as having a free spirit, to follow your values and convictions regardless what others may think of you. It's about looking at yourself honestly and be your strictest judge. An attitude and lifestyle in which you do what is important to you and not someone else.
moon Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 Deacon Frost, I don't think what you are describing is an independent woman per say. I think what you are describing in your OP is a woman who has been hurt many times in their lives and been forced to take care of themselves, thus the independent label. This pain in the past which forced them to take care of themselves financially should not be confused with a person who simply has their sh*t together, can take care of themselves and is emotionally stable. The type of person who is independent, makes their own money, found good careers for themselves, friends, etc. would be a great person to be in a relationship with. I think it's the wounded ones who were forced to overcome their odds and stand on their own two feet who might have more trouble in emotional relationships. It seems you are picking these types of women. My guess is that in the very beginning of your relationship with one of these types of women you noticed they were financially independent (an attraction). And I bet early on they told you about the divorce in their family (for example) or the fact that they don't speak to their mothers or the fact that their father walked out on them when they were four, etc. I bet they let you know early on about their emotional scars but you thought just because they are paying their own bills that everything must be okay. WRONG. They are no different from anybody else with emotional problems. I do know many successful independent woman who have great relationships! I have one friend in particular who always has a boyfriend. She's had amazing relationships with different successful men. She is an emotionally stable person and these men draw from her strength. I think the key here is not defining independent women as wounded. I think the key is accepting that even though somebody makes their own money doesn't mean they don't have emotional scars from the past like everybody else. Very dependent and clingy women also fall into this same category. Wouldn't you say? Yes, I do agree that some "independent women" has been forced to stand on their own two feet, but in today's world so are about 85 percent of all women under 40. I think I find less and less women these days who think they can count on the love, money and support of a man forever. But I do think that pain does force people to change. But regardless of independence or not you have to deal with your emotional issues. My guess is that you are attracted to these women not only for their financial stability, but also for their emotional issues. One thing to take into consideration is money doesn't mean you're sane. Poverty doesn't mean your dumb. I think it's also important to realize that for thousands of years women had been solely defined by the man they marry. In today's world women are stepping out on their own and being independent. I do imagine that many people who fought for women's rights in the past were in some way wounded or had their perceptions changed by some sort of disappointment. Gloria Steniem (woman's rights leader) is a good example. She watched her mother go crazy when her father walked out on the family. Now do you think this did not affect Gloria? Of course it did. Do think she'd have been stupid enough to think somebody else was going to manage her life for her? NO. So yes, I am sure she became "independent" as a result. But I think it's important to realize that just because this lead Gloria to become independent doesn't mean it lead her to be emotionally unstable. We all have to deal with our emotional issues one way or another. Everybody has them. So I think Deacon Frost you should look for women who are emotionally stable. They come in all shapes and sizes. It seems you are leaning more towards the work obsessed, emotionally distant type of women, who can't deal with their past in a healthy way. There are many, many men who fall into this same category!! It's not just about being "independent."
Author DeaconFrost Posted May 31, 2005 Author Posted May 31, 2005 Moon, I find it strange that you wrote as much as you did about the financial aspect and career motives when I never mentioned this or alluded to this in my post. Actually, the woman I am referring to are the farthest thing from being career driven. They have their jobs, put their time in and that's that. You make some highly valuable points but the frame I'm using here just doesn't really apply. Originally posted by kookyWhat if the woman does not want to have a great career? What if she chooses to do something that she likes, even though it doesn't pay well? Why does she have to have a lot of friends if she's happy with a few, but really good friends? Do mean with 'social life' that she has to go out all the time even though she's an introvert person? The rest is ok, but the first few things you mentioned I can't agree with, because I don't see any independence here. These are things that are important to you and some other people, but I don't think that by pursuing them this will make you an independent person. I have to agree with kooky here. I don't see the correlation between these social values and independence. An attitude and lifestyle in which you do what is important to you and not someone else I assume you mean with things like developing personal goals and pursuits. If not, this certainly would make for a poor partner. I can't see how a relationship would last for long if this mantra was applied in anything but the manner I suggested
tokyo Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 Originally posted by DeaconFrost Actually, the woman I am referring to are the farthest thing from being career driven. They have their jobs, put their time in and that's that. Out of curiosity, why did you believe they were independent? What were your criteria to judge their independence? I understood that the trouble in your relationship lead you to focus on other things, but you obviously have met other women who are not as independent as they claimed, but were they good actors and you did not dig deep enough or did you use the false criteria? I assume you mean with things like developing personal goals and pursuits. If not, this certainly would make for a poor partner. I can't see how a relationship would last for long if this mantra was applied in anything but the manner I suggested Yes, I meant to say that being independent means not to live your parent's dreams, for example (I was watching "Bend it like Beckham" the other night. ). It's about pursuing one's own goals and dreams and not what society, peers, parents, friends, etc. expect from you or deem worth to be pursued. As I already said, the goals that RecordProducer listed may be her goals and if she pursues them successfully will make her an independent person, but that's her own definition of what is important in life, for other people these things might not be what they are dreaming of and to go after them because everybody else does would mean to deny themselves the right to express their own true self. You are independent when you go after the things that are important to you. It's not to be confused with being a selfish person who ignores other people's feelings.
yellowrose Posted May 31, 2005 Posted May 31, 2005 My mother is the most independent woman I know. She told me, "Always know that you can take care of yourself in every way. That way, when you meet someone special you will be with them because you *want* to be with them, not because you *need* to be with them." That's how I define it. Being independent is being able to take care of yourself, fulfill your own needs emotionally and otherwise, but still have the capacity to enjoy a partner's presence in your life without feeling like you're desperate for them every moment of the day.
moon Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Moon, I find it strange that you wrote as much as you did about the financial aspect and career motives when I never mentioned this or alluded to this in my post. Deacon Frost, I don't understand. The way I primarily classify independence in women is that they can support themselves financially and have their own life goals they are working towards. In this respect I understand it to mean that they have found a way to finance their own lives with out the help of another person. That's huge for many women these days. This isn't exactly the easiest thing for women to do. Many do this for a while and then get married, have kids and give up on their dreams and are dependent on their husbands. I think most women these days before they get married have a sort of independence....but afterwards everything chances. Do you have married friends with kids? Then you might know what I mean. But I do think having an independent mind is important. You could be in a relationship and still value your free time and enjoy your own hobbies and goals. That's indpendence too. I consider myself independent because I travel a great deal and don't mind doing things alone. I guess that classifies me as independent also. I guess I don't really understand what type of women you're falling for. They sound maybe a bit narcistic. Is that independence? I don't think so. Feel free to put down any of my exes....yes they are nacistic too. But it's probably good you are trying to evaluate the type of women you are drawn to. Maybe that's just what you're really looking into. I don't think having an independent mind is a recipe for disaster, though. And most men like a women to make their own cash......so I'm not really catching your drift here.
moon Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Sorry not to stereotype above. I also have some women friends who are the one's who make the big money in the family and the husbands don't, but the women still seem to take care of the kids more....."Supermoms" I think they are called . So yeah, it could be the man or women that's dependent on the other for cash when married. Just to clarify.
moon Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Deacon Frost, By the way, I challenge you to give one of these very self-centered women, you are meeting up with, who declare themselves independent women (while they treat you like ****)..........a rebutal. Seriously, I might say to the girl, "Independent women, oh is that the new catch phrase of the day. You just seem really into yourself." You might get a backslap, but at least you'll get it off your chest. And you might not need to keep pondering whether these types of girls are the go-getter independent type or just your basic gimmee what you got types, who are just takers and emotionally distant because they are shallow. I do understand the thought of being wounded a lot, but I think this means you've just been burned and doesn't necessarily turn you into a man hater. I think these women are treating you like they are because that's just who they are. Please don't give the REAL independent women here a bad name. Thank you!
yellowrose Posted June 2, 2005 Posted June 2, 2005 Originally posted by moon Please don't give the REAL independent women here a bad name. Thank you! STANDING OVATION!
Author DeaconFrost Posted June 5, 2005 Author Posted June 5, 2005 Originally posted by tokyo Out of curiosity, why did you believe they were independent? What were your criteria to judge their independence? I understood that the trouble in your relationship lead you to focus on other things, but you obviously have met other women who are not as independent as they claimed, but were they good actors and you did not dig deep enough or did you use the false criteria? In believing the existence of independency I guess I pretty much just didn't dig deep enough and believed the hype. I was naive in thinking that there was no reason for me to not believe them. I always thought it was great for a woman to forge self-identity and essentially stand on their own two feet. I always have had a saying (jokingly) that any woman who is going to be with me needs to be able to handle being arrested without crying or losing it. What im driving at is I need to know that my SO can hold down the fort (and do it well) when I'm not around. In any event, I had never really been with a woman who blantantly claimed they were independent. I guess I never was exposed to the core of the issue because, frankly, it didn't really come up. I have always considered that being independent was a good thing, but it wasn't until recently that I was exposed to the idea in full force and noticed some interesting (and debatable) correlations. I think in some ways I got to a point where I ignored the idea and wrote off most of the strong, forward women as just being bitter. In a lot of circumstances this was true. But, as I have said earlier it appears as if I have made a generalization and was observing something that really wasn't independency, but fear, angst, and self-centered behavior. Originally posted by tokyo Yes, I meant to say that being independent means not to live your parent's dreams, for example (I was watching "Bend it like Beckham" the other night. ). You are independent when you go after the things that are important to you. It's not to be confused with being a selfish person who ignores other people's feelings. K...I was just checkin'
Author DeaconFrost Posted June 5, 2005 Author Posted June 5, 2005 Originally posted by moon I don't understand. The way I primarily classify independence in women is that they can support themselves financially and have their own life goals they are working towards. But I do think having an independent mind is important. You could be in a relationship and still value your free time and enjoy your own hobbies and goals. That's indpendence too. But it's probably good you are trying to evaluate the type of women you are drawn to. Maybe that's just what you're really looking into. I don't think having an independent mind is a recipe for disaster, though. And most men like a women to make their own cash......so I'm not really catching your drift here. The financial side is certainly an aspect of true independence, but my exploration is more so centered around the emotional effects and how it relates to maintaining a healthy relationship. As you said...the independent mind. I'm not negating the financial importance, but rather I'm simply accepting it as a given because unless your married you pretty much have to support yourself financially. I'm looking at it more so from a singles perspective than a married one. I made the statement I did because these women I'm speaking really don't have careers...they have jobs. So, the career goals and financial focus really aren't a huge contributing factor in my questioning. Doing things alone, having a life outside of the relationship, and maintaining enriching hobbies and goals are absolute necessities for me. A relationship would get stale without it. But again, these things aren't affecting my questioning. All in all, I simply had made some observations that were beginning to become reoccuring. As such, I wanted to discuss what I had observed and what real correlations could be drawn from them. As for being drawn to these types...I think that in some ways I want to: A) Prove to them that quality guys exist B) Prove to them that I really have honest intentions and that I'm a great partner C) Help them with improving outlook, self-confidence, and gaining trust again D) Look like a hero for doing all the above I guess I don't really understand what type of women you're falling for. They sound maybe a bit narcistic. Is that independence? I don't think so. Feel free to put down any of my exes....yes they are nacistic too. I don't understand them either...I can only conclude that their crazy . I'd say self-centered and narcistic are certainly applicable and appropriate titles.
Author DeaconFrost Posted June 5, 2005 Author Posted June 5, 2005 Originally posted by moon Deacon Frost, By the way, I challenge you to give one of these very self-centered women, you are meeting up with, who declare themselves independent women (while they treat you like ****)..........a rebutal. Seriously, I might say to the girl, "Independent women, oh is that the new catch phrase of the day. You just seem really into yourself." You might get a backslap, but at least you'll get it off your chest. And you might not need to keep pondering whether these types of girls are the go-getter independent type or just your basic gimmee what you got types, who are just takers and emotionally distant because they are shallow. I do understand the thought of being wounded a lot, but I think this means you've just been burned and doesn't necessarily turn you into a man hater. I think these women are treating you like they are because that's just who they are. Please don't give the REAL independent women here a bad name. Thank you! Interesting proposal...but I've decided to not have contact with these women in question. There's too much drama associated with them. Its not worth my time. I'd say that pondering isn't probably necessary. They are definately the gimmee what ya got types who are certainly emotionally distant. Your right...that's just who they are. But, I'm certainly fine with calling them out on their issues Obviously I'm going to have to be more acute in my judgement and experience a truly independent woman. A part of me is leary (which is fair) but I'll cease the labeling and name-calling until I have sound empirical evidence . BTW - what the hell is with those little bunnies? What do they imply?
moimeme Posted June 5, 2005 Posted June 5, 2005 Excitement! BTW - YellowR bravo to your mom: "Always know that you can take care of yourself in every way. That way, when you meet someone special you will be with them because you *want* to be with them, not because you *need* to be with them." That's how I define it. Being independent is being able to take care of yourself, fulfill your own needs emotionally and otherwise, but still have the capacity to enjoy a partner's presence in your life without feeling like you're desperate for them every moment of the day. Totally agree.
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