The independent woman: A receipe for relationship disaster?

[DeaconFrost]

I've been playing with this idea in a previous topic and someone told me I should make a thread out of it, so here it is!

 

You see, I've known a few women who are self-professed independent women (my ex included). From what I've been gathering these women make for terrible SO's. They tend to be very insecure, have a string of failed relationships, and are absolutely clueless as to why they can't find relationships that work. They just can't figure out why it is that their relationship has gone south and why the guy they happen to be with just can't accept who they are. What's so bewildering is that the answer is blantantly clear...

 

In my opinion these women are so gaurded emotionally that they never allow themselves to be truly intimate and open in a relationship because they are afraid of getting hurt (*again*). They are cold (they've got a limit to which they'll show loving behavior) and are often rude to boyfriends who openly display loving behavior and want to further develop the relationship. They use their guys as emotional crutches and are ready and willing to take but often give little in return. Pretty soon their SO's get so fed up with the unappreciative and distant behavior that they bail...AND THESE WOMEN JUST CANT UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED!!! Well no wonder...they got tired of being treated like a doormat.

 

I laugh because in every case that I've observed these women are actually pretty incapable of taking care of themselves. They are the farthest thing from independent and are rarely emotionally stable. If they cut got off from all their resources (i.e. family, freinds, etc.) and dumped in a new place they'd be completely lost. They think they're independent, but what they really are are lost.

 

I personally don't see how anybody can conceivably have this mentality and actually expect to have a deep, intimate and profound relationship that works. You have to be depenedent and unguarded to truly experience a knock-your-socks-off relationship. Maybe I'm wrong...

 

What do you guys have to say about this? Let's have some thought provoking conversation shall we?

[lindya]

You see, I've known a few women who are self-professed independent women (my ex included). From what I've been gathering these women make for terrible SO's. They tend to be very insecure, have a string of failed relationships, and are absolutely clueless as to why they can't find relationships that work. They just can't figure out why it is that their relationship has gone south and why the guy they happen to be with just can't accept who they are. What's so bewildering is that the answer is blantantly clear...

 

In my opinion these women are so gaurded emotionally that they never allow themselves to be truly intimate and open in a relationship because they are afraid of getting hurt (*again*). They are cold (they've got a limit to which they'll show loving behavior) and are often rude to boyfriends who openly display loving behavior and want to further develop the relationship. They use their guys as emotional crutches and are ready and willing to take but often give little in return. Pretty soon their SO's get so fed up with the unappreciative and distant behavior that they bail...AND THESE WOMEN JUST CANT UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED!!! Well no wonder...they got tired of being treated like a doormat.

 

I laugh because in every case that I've observed these women are actually pretty incapable of taking care of themselves. They are the farthest thing from independent and are rarely emotionally stable. If they cut got off from all their resources (i.e. family, freinds, etc.) and dumped in a new place they'd be completely lost. They think they're independent, but what they really are are lost.

 

I personally don't see how anybody can conceivably have this mentality and actually expect to have a deep, intimate and profound relationship that works. You have to be depenedent and unguarded to truly experience a knock-your-socks-off relationship. Maybe I'm wrong...

 

What do you guys have to say about this? Let's have some thought provoking conversation shall we?

 

That's not thought-provoking conversation. It's a bitter and hostile rant about women. Hopefully you're just in a bad mood about something, and feel like venting - because if all that critical, blaming language is representative of how you perceive and communicate with the opposite sex, then I'm not surprised that they respond distantly towards you.

[laRubiaBonita]

There is a big difference between an independent woman and a Man-hating b!tch.

 

I think i am independent. I can do for myself, i am a smart and tough cookie. But i would rather share my life with someone, if it is the right person for me.

 

But i also know women who claim to be independent. and maybe by definition they are. My example is a woman i know. a divorcee- mother of two, who after her divorce from her doctor script-writing husband......had worked her butt off to provide. but she is also an addict. so provide means supply her drugs and her kids some stuff too.

 

she is one of the most self-absorbed, spoiled woman i know. she is re-married, but only cause the poor guy has some money, and now she has him whipped. she wants only the best clothes, and material items, because that is how she defines her self worth.

[st8toftheheart]

I think your confusing independance with relationship insecurity, which occur with independant and dependant people alike.

 

Frankly I think independent, driven women make for the best partners. The reason I say this couples need a life outside of the life together inorder to coexists. IMO. I actually do not like depedant women. I like a women who can say I like who I am and if you have a problem with it, tough. FIne by me. That just means we weren't meant to have a relationship, and I can respect that more than I could the other.

 

If anything an independant women can be more self assured because she has achieved successes without the assistance of anyone, and at the same time achieved things with someone's assitance. Well rounded.

 

Perhaps their standards are higher, there by not letting certain type guys get away with what hey normally would. Or maybe it the guy who cowers infront of a successful, independant creating an uineasiness in the relationship. So IMO its the man who is insecure.

 

I call it the skirt sydrome. Certain men like to where the pants, so to speak, so when a independant woman comes along they feel like they wear the skirt and issues arise.

 

Just an observation.

[moimeme]

You see, I've known a few women who are self-professed independent women (my ex included). From what I've been gathering these women make for terrible SO's. They tend to be very insecure

 

Sigh. Just because someone calls herself 'an independent woman' doesn't mean she is, no more than so many so-called Christians don't act very Christian and many so-called 'nice guys' aren't very nice at all. Don't buy someone's advertising. Watch her behaviour. What you described is obviously NOT an independent woman but someone with big issues in denial.

 

I'm an independent woman. Means I take care of myself financially and manage my own life quite nicely. I'm not insecure at all and certainly am not clingy and frightened nor rude and unappreciative. None of those behaviours would suit a genuine independent woman.

[ReluctantRomeo]

hmmm, I have to say this is a little more polemic than I expected.

 

Deacon *does* have good thoughts on this subject. I think he's just having a bad post-break-up moment. We all get them

 

Let's see if I can dig them out...

[ReluctantRomeo]

OK, here are some random quotes from the other thread. I hope Deacon, NewMe and Jen don't mind me quoting them out of context

 

From DeaconFrost:

 

They use the banner of independence as a defense mechanism to protect themselves from being hurt again. Sure, you certainly will keep yourself from the pain of a breakup, but as long as that wall is posted up you also will never be in an enriching and powerful relationship.

 

Of course its not going to work out. Its most often because they want the comfort and powerfulness of a relationship, but aren't willing to allow true intimacy and vulnerability to exist. So, when the relationship ends abruptly they wonder why they just can't find someone who'll accept their vow of oneness. Well who would? You can't be in a romantic relationship without being dependant. Try it and you'll never get past the point where friends exist.

 

 

From NewMe:

 

We live in a culture that idealizes independence, but the truth is that we are all interdependent. Being in a relationship means mutual dependency, doesn't it?

 

Depending on someone to make you happy is admitting that you have no power. They then (when they feel like it) take that happiness away.

 

That sounds provocative, but what does it actually entail? Living perpetually in defensive mode, keeping the new mates at arm's lengths just so they can't hurt us?

 

I want to bond and I am needy. I think everyone does and is. I don't see why it should be so shameful, why everyone is nodding to "don't be needy." Does no one here plan to love again?

 

 

From jen_jen_heartbroken:

 

I think our independent culture has created too many commitment-phobics

[Horse]

I've always been attracted to more independent women, including my wife. I'm independent and I have a pretty strong personality. I prefer women who are more my equal even if it can cause conflict. Independent women have their own interests, opinions and personality. They are secure enough to give me space and let me do what I want and independent enough to let me know where I stand.

 

I've dated a few passive, dependent women. They drive me crazy. They always wanted to do whatever I wanted to do. My opinion was their opinion. They never argued with me or told me to shut the f... up when I was out of line. Boring.

 

I dated one girl who, whenever I asked her what she wanted to do, would reply "whatever you want to do." I could never get her to make a decision, not even about what she wanted to eat. She would do anything I asked though, that was kind of fun for a while.

 

I think Alpha would have loved her.

 

Most of the women that I consider independent wouldn't necessarily label themselves as "independent women." I agree that many of the women who do label themselves as independent women and bemoan the fact that men are somehow scared of independent women are often just domineering beotches who don't want partners.They only want worshipers.

 

There are a lot of guys like that too though.

[HokeyReligions]

What is YOUR definition of an independent woman? Was is THEIR definition of an independent woman?

 

My definition:

 

Support myself financially, including savings and retirement.

 

Handle all the little problems and maintenence issues that life throws at me without needing someone else to help me make a decision. (I can buy a car and haggle with a salesman; find the best deal on services; tackle the typical gender-role duties without a second thought -- take the trash out, mow the yard, etc.) I am fortunate enough to have an independent man as a husband and we split up the responsibilities.

 

Being able to laugh and enjoy life without needing someone else to initiate the laughter or enjoyment.

 

Comfortably eating alone at a restaruant, or going to a movie by myself and not being uncomfortable or lonly.

 

Being able to share 100% of myself with another person, without losing sight of who I am.

 

By my own definition, I am an independent person.

[JS17]

I am an independent woman and to me it just means wanting instead of needing.

[tokyo]

DeaconFrost, I read some of your posts and they are usually very insightful, that one I find to be pretty flawed though. You willingly accept the label that some women give themselves. They call themselves independent, but nothing in their behavior or their outlook on life makes them independent in my eyes. Call them what you want, but they are not independent. I know women that I would describe as independent and they are far from the women you described.

[scratch]

Deacon, you answered your own question. Several people have addressed the "words vs. actions" issue well already, so I'll just add this:

 

Look for women who wear thier independence as a shield rather than a sword.

[sarah12]

Originally posted by JS17

I am an independent woman and to me it just means wanting instead of needing.

 

Are you referring to relationships? Or in general?

 

I'm also independent, but for me, I would like to be in a relationship where I feel that I do need the other person in my life. When the want becomes a need. Generally I'm not in relationships very often because I don't feel that most men I meet can contribute positively to my life where I feel that I need them.

[DeaconFrost]

I see I have sparked some words among the community...good! On the other hand, I also have realized the possible "rant" mode that the post may have taken on (not my intention at all...be that as it may, thank you to all who have called me on it ). Let me further some thoughts here and explain to a greater degree what I am getting at...

 

Independence is a great thing in all people. We should take it upon ourselves to be self-sufficient. I am by no means implying that a woman should be completely dependent on a man. That's ridiculous and as another poster commented: boring. Fact is, if something goes wrong it is imperative that a person be able to fend and indeed thrive for themselves. Please don't misconstrue what I have said as implying that women are incorrect in forging strong self-identities or taking varying initiatives. Apparently I haven't explained myself properly...

 

I'm just noticing that a lot of women are using the whole independent thing as a guise for fear. It seems as if there is a general push towards using this moniker to essentially define a woman. All of a sudden, I've noticed that many women see it as a bad thing that another woman wants to have a deep relationship where she leaves herself open to emotional commitment or that its bad to be "so into the relationship" which I think is absolutely ludicris. Its seen as being weak and too dependent. In wake, those who adopt this mindset often become closed off and distant and in general just don't seem to get it. By extension, they often ridicule men as being too needy for trying to further a relationship or develop a greater sense of intimacy. I've also noticed that many of these types of woman purposely hold back their true feelings or emotions because of some strange fear...and you can tell.

 

I realize the tone of my initial post clearly had some misinterpretation and I would like to take this opportunity to apologize for any backlash this may have caused. I was merely trying to communicate an observation that I've made on the nature of these "so-called independent" women who wave the banner like its a global necessity. I was posting it here to gain additional interpretation and discussion on this observation and see if others have observed this theorized push in our society today. Have men or other women seen this mentality going around lately? That's what I'm very interested in. I really just wanted some input on the idea. I can accpet it just fine if its wrong or a weak genrealization. I'm just curious. Hopefully that explains it a bit better.

 

Originally posted by lindya

It's a bitter and hostile rant about women

At no point in time did I label all women as having this mindset. I'm merely making observations that I've seen through several women and appears to be a reoccuring theme. Thus my personal quest for community feedback and knowledge. I'm trying to have a conversation; not use this forum as a personal rant fest.

 

Originally posted by laRubitaBonita

I think i am independent. I can do for myself, i am a smart and tough cookie. But i would rather share my life with someone, if it is the right person for me.

This is what I think is imperative. You must have a strong self-identity, but these women I am speaking of seem to lack the understanding of where to draw the line and when to simply let go and allow themselves to be loved and allow themselves to be truly intimate.

 

Originally posted by st8oftheheart

I think your confusing independance with relationship insecurity

I think I am too which I hopefully resolved in my statement above. You raise a lot of great points. No one likes a doormat (at least those that are honorable). What I am questioning is the apparent rise in the use of the independent label in wake of things like relationship insecurity. I agree that the ideal should be a person who is "well balanced"

 

Originally posted by moimeme

Just because someone calls herself 'an independent woman' doesn't mean she is...None of those behaviours would suit a genuine independent woman

Very true. The sales pitch can be very convincing and it is ultimately left up to us to decipher the bulls**t. Your right about the behavior not being accurate for a true independent woman. Am I wrong by saying that a true independent woman knows herself, can take care of herself, is completely aware of the dangers, and yet is unafraid to be dependent, accept help and love from others and return that love without any fear of implication or feeling of being "too attached?"

 

Originally posted by ReluctantRomeo

That sounds provocative, but what does it actually entail? Living perpetually in defensive mode, keeping the new mates at arm's lengths just so they can't hurt us?

 

I want to bond and I am needy. I think everyone does and is. I don't see why it should be so shameful, why everyone is nodding to "don't be needy." Does no one here plan to love again?

This was an addtional area I was hoping to investigate through this thread. I've perceived a backlash towards being needy in a relationship which I think is silly. With your quote extractions you summed up my thoughts pretty well here and I thank you for not writing me off . I think being needy (clearly there are different forms of neediness - here we are referring to the need for enriching uninhibited love) in a relationship is completely fine. Otherwise, what's the point in being in a relationship? If you can't allow yourself to be open, unguarding, and giving in a relationship then why even bother starting in the first place? Independence has its limits.

 

Originally posted by Horse

I agree that many of the women who do label themselves as independent women and bemoan the fact that men are somehow scared of independent women are often just domineering beotches who don't want partners. They only want worshipers.

This was an undertone of what I was trying to get at and I was curious to see if any had noticed a greater push towards this realm of thinking.

 

Orginally posted by HokeyReligions

Being able to share 100% of myself with another person, without losing sight of who I am.

HUGE point is was trying to make in that many who claim they are independent lack this ability to some extent

 

Originally posted by kooky

DeaconFrost, I read some of your posts and they are usually very insightful, that one I find to be pretty flawed though

It is flawed in my execution and my inability to fruther communicate what I wanted to investigate with the LS community. I'm sure I do blindly accept the label as well. Again, this is all part of my quest for investgation. My apologies...oh and thanks for the props on the other posts.

 

Originally posted by scratch

Look for women who wear thier independence as a shield rather than a sword.

Very true, but why should you sheild yourself? Being in love takes risks. The only way you can truly experience love is if you let go of those fears and give it a shot.

 

Again, I appreciate everyone's input and I hope I have clarified myself better so I don't look like a complete jack ass. I just raised this topic because it concerns me that a lot of great women (friends and interests) are clearly holding back in a manner that just doesn't seem fitting. They are cheating theselves out of relationships that could be great. It just seems like many are simply misguided...

[sarah12]

I just raised this topic because it concerns me that a lot of great women (friends and interests) are clearly holding back in a manner that just doesn't seem fitting. They are cheating theselves out of relationships that could be great. It just seems like many are simply misguided...

 

Independent women have built a life for themselves that they enjoy and makes them happy. They are proud of their successes in the life that they created on their own, which in turn means that they are able to control the happiness they get in return. So anyone who enters this 'realm' must compete with that level of happiness, the one that can be controlled. Therefore, the bar has been raised and not only that, but they are so used to such a high standard of happiness, that they will bail at the first sign of anything going wrong in a relationship. Hence, their 'failures' and 'horrible relationships' may not even be any worse than your average relationship, but it has been perceived to be this way by the independent woman when compared to the happiness she can achieve when she is on her own.

 

Therefore, it is likely that these women don't want to open up in a relationship because they already know what it takes to make themselves happy: being single. Thus, they will ditch a good relationship for the single life because at least they know that they will be much happier this way.

 

Hope this makes some sense.

[moimeme]

Am I wrong by saying that a true independent woman knows herself, can take care of herself, is completely aware of the dangers, and yet is unafraid to be dependent, accept help and love from others and return that love without any fear of implication or feeling of being "too attached?"

 

Precisely. The genuine independent woman is courageous, as is the genuine 'nice guy'. It takes big hard ones (ovaries that is ) to allow oneself to be vulnerable, to take risks, to face the possibility of loss. People who erect walls aren't 'independent'; they're hiding out.

 

Remember from Le Petit Prince:

Flowers are weak creatures. They are naive. They reassure themselves as best they can. They believe that their thorns are terrible weapons . . ."

[lindya]

your second post certainly made it clearer, Deacon Frost.

 

I agree with the others who advocate ignoring the labels people like to put on themselves. To me being independent means going out into a world where you've been harmed before, and know you might get harmed again. Knowing, from experience what precautions to take in order to minimise the risk of being harmed - but not being obsessive about it. Staying locked inside, safe from all the things that might harm is pure fear - not independence.

 

I wouldn't, however, want to judge someone for being needing the "walls" and isolation for a while after they've been badly burned in a relationship. Some relationships end with the dumpee feeling very much as if they've been "duped" by an expert con artist - and you can't really expect someone like that to feel like rushing headlong into trusting the next person who comes along.

[DeaconFrost]

Very interesting thoughts Sarah12. So are you saying that these women have a commitment phobia to some extent?

 

If what you say is applicable then by extension they should have no room to complain about failed relationships or about wanting a satisfying relationship. Clearly they have made a choice that has little long-term wiggle room, yes? By the way you have described it, it almost sounds as if they are lacking trust in others with a very cynical perspective on what a relationship can provide. Would you say that to some degree this exists? Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Moimeme - It does take a massive amount of courage to allow oneself to be vulnerable. Maybe one cannot truly muster this kind of courage unless they really know themselves. If so then a truly independent women in this context would be very desirable indeed. It sounds like the behaviors I have been observing are more so fear driven. Great quote by the way. It sheds a light of light on the subject. BTW, big hard ovaries....nice choice .

 

Originally posted by lindya

To me being independent means going out into a world where you've been harmed before, and know you might get harmed again. Knowing, from experience what precautions to take in order to minimise the risk of being harmed - but not being obsessive about it. Staying locked inside, safe from all the things that might harm is pure fear - not independence

Very insightful! I like what you have to say here alot. Its a very refreshing perspective to have.

 

As far as the whole needing a degree of isolation, I agree with you. Bravo to someone who realizes they need to take a step back. Where I point the finger is at those who act like they don't need it or are in denial about their isolation. They often try to put the onus on everyone but themselves. These behaviors can lead to some very crushed feelings.

 

The question I have here is what happens when someone does all they can to prove they are in good faith and genuine and still they get pushed aside? This girl I knew was a complete bitch to her boyfriend and would essentially attempt to negate his awesome deeds as lacking true integrity or as being over-the-top. On the contrary, his acts were very loving and thoughtful. She even admitted that she is aware that she does these things, but made zero attempts to alter it. I ran into the guy last week and you can tell he's still a bit angry about it (I certainly can't blame him). So how does all this get factored in? This certainly isn't a unique case. I've seen it happen a few times. I realize its fear to a degree, but is it all fear?

[tokyo]

Maybe I missed it a bit, but why are you asking? Why do you wonder about women who despite their self-labeling and self-advertising are not independent? Did you get burnt once by one? Stop wondering about them and look for women who are really independent and who are willing to share their emotions for you.

 

I'm asking, because you're pondering about women that you neither should not date nor obviously do not want to date.

[sarah12]

So are you saying that these women have a commitment phobia to some extent?

I would say that it could be a result of a number of characteristics including committment phobia, and fear of getting hurt (which I suppose is a part of CP). But I think what I was getting at is that they are wanting a 'perfect' relationship because this defines 'success' for them. Therefore, arguments and hurtful words being said is a sign of failure, and a red flag that says 'get out because this relationship sucks.' What they don't know, is that a relationship isn't like applying for a job or passing an exam at school -where you work really hard to get the job or study really hard to get 95% on that test. In both of these examples, these women are used to finding their own way to get success, building their own self-esteem to get that job, or studying on their own to do well on that test. In a relationship, there's two people that make it work, and since they can't control what the other person says/does/thinks/feels, it makes for a difficult task that they aren't used to, because they have never had to depend on anyone else to make themselves happy.

 

If what you say is applicable then by extension they should have no room to complain about failed relationships or about wanting a satisfying relationship. Clearly they have made a choice that has little long-term wiggle room, yes?

I suppose so. But like I said earlier, they seem to be unaware of the fact that relationships aren't always happy-go-lucky. They aren't aware that it takes cooperation on the parts of both people together to make it work, and so they blame the other person since she herself has already tried and put in her 200%. So in a way, I would say that she's made a subconscious choice by process of elimination. i.e. I can't be happy and make it work with another person, so let's take out that factor.

By the way you have described it, it almost sounds as if they are lacking trust in others with a very cynical perspective on what a relationship can provide. Would you say that to some degree this exists? Your thoughts are appreciated.

I think that trust is definitely a factor, but she doesn't necessarily lack trust in the man himself, but lacks trust in the success of the relationship. They see their past relationships as failures in a life defined only by success, and so it becomes very daunting when they enter into a relationship not knowing whether or not it is going to succeed, especially given her dating history. The unknown is a scary place for an independent woman who sees life as a world of possibilities and certainties.

[RecordProducer]

So you're talking about women who don't get easily attached to men and seem cold because they fear to become emotionally dependent. That's nothing to do with independence. People who are afraid to fall in love are

By an independent woman I would understand a woman who has a great career, makes good money, has lots of friends, social life, family, etc. and will not be clingy to her partner, will always have her life and be herself, will not beg for love out of mercy or despair, etc.

[lindya]

Originally posted by DeaconFrost

 

The question I have here is what happens when someone does all they can to prove they are in good faith and genuine and still they get pushed aside? This girl I knew was a complete bitch to her boyfriend and would essentially attempt to negate his awesome deeds as lacking true integrity or as being over-the-top. On the contrary, his acts were very loving and thoughtful. She even admitted that she is aware that she does these things, but made zero attempts to alter it. I ran into the guy last week and you can tell he's still a bit angry about it (I certainly can't blame him). So how does all this get factored in? This certainly isn't a unique case. I've seen it happen a few times. I realize its fear to a degree, but is it all fear?

 

Difficult. Some people are just a bit more reserved than others and it takes them a bit of time to open up to people. Commenting too much on that can turn it into an issue, and make them feel criticised and under the microscope. I think the best relationships you have are with those people who accept and like you for the way you already are - rather than with the people who want to "improve" you. If the positive response to someone's basic personality is lacking, then no amount of awesome deeds or wining and dining can make up for that general sense of disapproval. If the positive appreciation of a person "just the way they are" is present, on the other hand, then the awesome deeds can come later on in the relationship - and will hopefully be appreciated and reciprocated.

[DeaconFrost]

Originally posted by kooky

Maybe I missed it a bit, but why are you asking? Why do you wonder about women who despite their self-labeling and self-advertising are not independent? Did you get burnt once by one? Stop wondering about them and look for women who are really independent and who are willing to share their emotions for you.

 

I'm asking, because you're pondering about women that you neither should not date nor obviously do not want to date.

Damn kooky! You are straight and to the point. I certainly can appreciate that. Fair enough. I'd give you a digital high five if it was possible.

 

To answer your questions:

Did I get burnt once? - yes, and its been my most recent relationship. However, this post was not my main motivation for writing this. Actually it was talking to my previously mentioned acquaintance that sparked my interest. Contrary to what you may perceive, I am not loathing or scrambling for answers. I am intellectual intrigued by the topic. You see when I take notice of something that interests me, I dive in head first to investigate as much as possible and develop a solid understanding of the topic. I rarely accept things blindly without at least gaining a general framework. In addition, I am very interested in people and the way they interact with others.

 

The way I see it, the more I know and the more viewpoints I gain, the better I am able to interact with others and be prepared for future events. I agree, I shouldn't look for these kinds of women, but it doesn't mean I shouldn't gain knowledge about their actions and habits. Its preventative maintenance in a way.

 

I'll respond to the others in a bit...Thanks again

[tokyo]

Originally posted by kooky

I'm asking, because you're pondering about women that you neither should [not] date nor obviously do not want to date.

Correction: The "not" is superfluous.

 

 

Originally posted by DeaconFrost

To answer your questions:

Did I get burnt once? - yes, and its been my most recent relationship. However, this post was not my main motivation for writing this. Actually it was talking to my previously mentioned acquaintance that sparked my interest. Contrary to what you may perceive, I am not loathing or scrambling for answers. I am intellectual intrigued by the topic. You see when I take notice of something that interests me, I dive in head first to investigate as much as possible and develop a solid understanding of the topic. I rarely accept things blindly without at least gaining a general framework. In addition, I am very interested in people and the way they interact with others.

I in no way assume that you are bitter or anything, au contraire, you strike me as a very well balanced person and I therefore believe that sooner or later you will find the right woman for you.

 

I'm not sure if I can explain it well why I asked, I felt you were concentrating on the wrong things. As if you were focusing on the wrong people with the intention of helping them overcome their problems. I think if this was not such an important topic for you, then you would think about it at home on your own instead of trying to explore it here on this forum. Hopefully you really just consider them an interesting phenomenon that you want to explore intellectually, because personally I would not waste my time on women who are so bitchy and insecure, not even with thinking about them. You should not ask all these questions about independent women because you're questioning yourself, people often doubt themselves after a breakup, I guess. I didn't have the impression that you're the kind of guy who becomes too needy or who is too insecure, don't worry about this too much. I'd find it more interesting to ask why did you believe her when she said claimed she was independent and you were needy? But it's your thread.

[DeaconFrost]

I totally see your point. I basically said the same thing to a friend last night...why waste your time?

 

Thanks for the words kooky. I'm sure there is an amount inside of me that is still curious with regards to my previous relationship, but for the most part I am intrigued by the phenomenon. I had a massive and deeply intellectual conversation with one of my friends who doesn't wave the independent banner, but DEFINATELY builds walls. Some very insightful interpretations were developed so my pursuit is very much becoming enriched.

 

As for your question. Why did I believe her?

 

1) At the time so much drama was going on between us that I guess I really never had a chance to analyze it. I was still trying to digest all the other things that had previously happened.

 

2) She was very convincing and manipulative. She had a knack for making you forget what you were talking about and had already changed the subject enough to make you forget the point you were about to make because all of a sudden you went into defense mode.

 

2) I was head over heels for her and was determined to make things work out (even though I kept breaking up with her. I did doubt myself for giving it a great enough chance for a while). Thus, I was fine with letting things slide by (it takes a lot for me to get angry...I pick and choose my fights). The last thing I wanted to do was start another argument.